that is it for this edition of "360" from south africa. starting at 3:30 eastern time, hope you join us. thanks for watching "11th hour" hosted by don lemon starts now. it is 11:00 in the east. do you know where your news is? good evening, everyone. i'm don lemon. this is "11th hour" the last word on today and what you'll be talking about tomorrow. tonight, let me ask you a very simple question. could you live on the minimum wage? feed your family, pay rent and buy everything else you need on $7.25 an hour? you probably couldn't, i know i couldn't and a lot of people think $7.25 is just not enough. president obama included. >> we know that there are airport workers and fast food workers and nurse assistants and retail sales people who work their tails off. and are still living at or barely above poverty.

and that's why it's well past the time to raise a minimum wage that real terms right now is below where it was when harry truman was in office. so you heard from the president there. i want to show you fast food workers across the country walked out last week demanding better pay. what is a fair wage in 2013? can america even afford it? poppy har low is here. you met a single mom working full time on the night shift, she just can't make it. >> her name is joanna cruz and she is one of so many who says, look, we're not making what they are calling a living wage. we have seen this play out on the streets of america. many people calling for $15 an hour, more than double the federal minimum wage. the question is can retailers afford that or should the government step in and mandate, mandate that. consider this, this fight is happening, don, on main street while wall street is watching

the stock market hit record highs and almost half of all americans have no investment whatsoever in the stock market. so, increasingly, this is a tale of two america. >> no money on your lunch account. not a dollar. at 29 years old joanna cruz is stuck in a job that pays $7.30 an hour. she works overnights at a deli. her weekly paycheck, $244.70. what do you need to make to be able to get by on your own? >> i would have to make at least $14, $15 to be able to live, comfortably. do you add it up as you go? >> i do. >> reporter: she is a single mom fighting to get by. don't be mistaken, she blames herself for not finishing high school and not going to college. but she tells me there has to be more she can achieve. >> there is no moving up. i mean, i might get a raise if

i'm there long enough. but that's about it. >> reporter: joanna's life mirrors her mother's. she worked 30 years in a mattress factory and said she never made more than $9 an hour. her mom provides the home that joanna can't afford. if it wasn't for you having them here under your roof, where would joanna be? >> in the shelter, in the street. >> reporter: joanna has little hope. >> by the time i finish school, i'll probably be like 40 and then who is going to hire a 40-year-old just starting off with no experience. probably not going to happen. some days i don't want to try. >> reporter: tell me what you mean? >> i feel like, what's the point? what's the point of trying. i'm not going to make it anyway. >> reporter: do you think from the outside looking in people have any idea what you go through? >> no. none.

>> reporter: americans have long believed in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. we can't agree with what that wage is today. president obama supports raising the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to about $10 an hour. but critics argue that won't help. it will hurt costing jobs and increasing prices. >> the general prices go up and people buy a little less and less labor. you are better off if you earn a higher wage, clearly. but weigh that against the likelihood that the employer will make do with somewhat fewer workers and you might be one of those workers. >> reporter: at the center of the debate, fast food chains and big box retailers. in 2012, the average pay for a fast food worker was $9. for a retailer worker it was $12.17. both higher than minimum wage. still tiffany a part-time walmart worker is among those demanding higher pay. she is a member of our walmart,

a union-backed group that does not represent walmart workers, but protests for higher wages. >> it isn't enough money for me to get by. it's very hard. we're at a standstill right now with my family. >> reporter: walmart's u.s. ceo said they pay a fair wage and are unfairly criticized. >> we pay above average wages for the retail industry. and we provide incredible opportunity. the discussion around the starting wage, minimum wage is one that the country needs to have and the debate needs to be had. the issue isn't where you start, where you go to once you've started. >> reporter: tiffany wants more opportunity, but at $10.70 an hour, she says she can't afford to work full time, given the child care costs she would need to cover. so, why doesn't she look for another job? >> i am not unhappy with my job. i like my job and i like being with the customers. pointless for me to find a job. i would rather stay and fight. >> reporter: as for joanna, her pay will go up in january when

minimum wage in new jersey increases to $8.25 an hour. she will still struggle but hopes her children's lives will be better. >> i promise you that. it's not going to happen to my kids. it's just not. >> we crunched the data and what we found is that last year more than 12 million americans working full time, full-time working americans took home just about $20,000. keep in mind, that number, that's more than minimum wage. >> back when i started out working as a teenager, again, this was back in the '80s, 1981. that is the exact year. $3.35 an hour. when i worked at mcdonald's it was for young people like me, temporary workers, these weren't full-time people trying to take care of families. what's going on here? >> increasingly we're seeing more older americans getting these jobs that previously were held by younger and younger

people like teenagers, et cetera. when you look at the data that shows all the americans that are making an hourly wage, nearly 50% of them who make at or below minimum wage are 25 years or older. and you can't dispute with those numbers. >> so, joanna, the one who works at a deli, she admittedly said, listen, partially it's my fault. i didn't finish high school or college and i have kids. i should have finished high school or college, but hard times have fallen on a lot of people in this country and we used to be able to dig our way out of it. it is increasingly tougher to do it in this economy? >> the mobility, the mobility. the access to move higher and get higher paying jobs. that is really a question right now. i'm glad you brought up joanna because, yes, you can't say this is all the fact that wages aren't high enough or the government should do more, she also takes personal responsibility and make choices that she's trying to make up for

now. you heard her despair and lack of hope and saying when i'm out of school, maybe i'll be 40 years old. that question about mobility. >> i think people will do it. i think she underestimates that. i think there are companies who are looking for older, mature people who realize, you know, take some personal responsibility and realize what's at stake because, you know, i came at this news game a little bit older, in my 30s. >> and look at you now. >> yeah. >> she is a hard worker. working overnights and taking care of her kids during the day and sleeping very little. >> thank you, poppy. >> you're welcome. let's do the math and see if it adds up here. my supersize panel is here. also formerly with the white house and gorveer newsquest and a former walmart employee, that's very important. talk to her about that. alexis goalstooen communication director for the other 98% and

contributor to "the nation." i'll start off with you tonight, grover. a full-time 40-hour a week worker making $7.25 an hour taking two weeks off for vacation, that's $14,500 a year. do you think that's a fair wage? >> look, we have a real problem here. there are a million people fewer working today than when obama took office. we've got a lot of jobs that have been lost. we need not only good starting jobs, but the opportunity to move forward, which is why if you can get a job and hold it and move up the scale, that's very important. we need both economic growth and job opportunities. that's where the present economy is failing the american people. we're not creating the jobs we need to. >> but, grover -- >> fewer american people working today than when obama took over. >> i don't want to play politics

here. >> that's a number. >> do you think this is a fair wage? can people live on $7.25 an hour? >> well, i don't expect people work for $7 an hour for all of their lives. it is a better job opening, a first job than no job at all. i suppose $7 is better than no job. obama left too many people with no job. >> thank you for answering that question. christine, you were a cashier at walmart. were you okay with what you were being paid? >> i was. because i was 19 and 20-year-old with no skills whatsoever. i was in college and i was paid above minimum wage and it was fairly basic work. it wasn't $15 an hour work by any means and i thought it was a fair wage. >> what was your experience like working there did the people around you think it was a fair wage being paid? >> the majority of my co-workers like me either in school or in high school still and we didn't really talk much about salary. but i didn't hear anyone openly

complain about what was being paid. we were all pretty much in the same boat. >> alexis, you have been watching these strikes taking place across the country. workers demanding $15 an hour. is a protest the right way to go with doing this? >> i think it's an important approach because it allows workers to have a voice in this. what is important to remember about this is this is a fight that affects 30 million americans and 88% of the people who are currently making minimum wage are over 20 years old. we're not talking about teenagers any more. more than half of them work full time. we're not talking about people working part-time any more. this is hard work that deserves a fair pay. this is physical taxing work and emotionally draining. it was the hardest job that i had. i worked seven years on wall street, more physically exhausting than my seven years on wall street. what is important here to remember is, look, people can't make enough to survive so they're increasingly have to go to debt. investors are making huge

amounts of money and people getting passive incomes that are coming in because of shareholders. when people go into debt, that enriches wall street. the old american dream was owning a home and the new american dream is simply getting out of debt. we need to raise the minimum wage to change that. >> president obama wants to change the minimum wage. but he will face a tough battle in congress. do you think that by putting more wages, higher wages into low-income people that are earning. do you think that boosts the economy? >> i think one of the biggest problems that we faced, certainly coming out of the worst recession of our lifetimes but it really predates that through all of the 2000s you had median family income. just the family right in the middle falling $2,000 over the course of what was supposed to be the boom and then the second blow to them was a terrible recession. so, the hollowing out of the middle class and the fact that

ordinary people like the people on the segment or, you know, millions of people around the country not being able to keep up is a big mac roeconomic problem. more than just a microproblem facing their families. the fact that the number one biggest problem facing small business in the country by their own admission is that people can't afford to buy their products. i think we got to confront that. if we don't start rebuilding the income growth coming from the middle, we don't have a sustainable growth model. >> we'll talk solutions in just a moment here. but i want you to stand by. in a minute, we're wondering why this is such a hot issue. we'll check out these mcdonald's employees. they're exactly, not exactly loving it. ♪ every day we're working to be an even better company -

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hello, everyone. welcome back, i'm don lemon. this is "11th hour." america's divided over minimum wage and my supericized panelist, austan goolsbee and also an adviser for the obama administration and grover norquist and christine, web

editor for townhall.com and a former walmart employee and alexis goalsteen. i'll start with you, again, grover. ralph nader wrote you a letter, right? >> he called about it. i haven't seen the letter, but i think he was in favor of having a minimum wage increase. >> i want to read directly from the letter that he sent you. low wages at the ten largest fast food chains cost taxpayers $3.8 billion per year. at 52% of families of front line fast food workers rely only on government assistance. i'll ask you the same question he asked. why should taxpayers shell out $1.2 billion a year to help mcdonald's pay its workers? >> okay, i think nadir's point he is trying to make is that the government spends a great deal of money on welfare and he thinks that if you increase the minimum wage that that would

change. here's the challenge. we only have about 3,000 years of history of wage and price controls. they don't work very well. they have a very sad history. the national recovery act under fdr, they estimated that 500,000 people lost their jobs as a result of the 1933 minimum wage. the union in the republic of south africa under apartheid loved as a way to keep blacks out of particular jobs over there. has a very bad history of keeping younger peep, disadvantaged guys and people trying to get their first jobs out of the work force. that's why unions have historically -- >> what is your point here? >> grover, i find it really interesting that you are concerned about south africa and blacks were prevented from getting jobs because you were on the forefront during the '80s when apartheid was still part of south africa. find your concern to be a little bit questionable.

and i also think that -- >> wait, wait, wait -- >> grover, quickly, because i want to keep you guys focused. >> i've seen that from somebody that the nation quoted somebody, not true. if you want to know my position, i'm perfectly willing to give it to you. i worked with a number of groups that were trying to open up opportunities especially with a bus and taxi association because the apartheid government wasn't allowing blacks to operate taxies in and out of the major cities. >> falsely attributed to you and it's just not true. let's move on now. austan, did i hear you sigh with his original response? >> a little bit. look, the thing is, rather than look back 3,000 years i don't know what the ancient romans, greeks but i do know that we have had minimum wages and a series of policies that have not kept up with inflation. so, if you thought that the minimum wage was going to be devastating to employment than i

think you kind of have to explain why when we have raised the minimum wage. it hasn't been devastating. why under the bush administration, for example, has inflation eroded away minimum wages and a huge boom to employment as it was going the opposite way and i think the thing that is the most problematic here is that we, we know what are the things that lead to better paying jobs and lower unemployment and a lot of those have to do with getting skills and education to the workforce. and, yet, when we say let's try to sponsor early education programs, let's not cut financial aid for people to go to college. let's sponsor training programs. >> so, there's a -- >> we get massive opposition. so, we're going to get locked into a situation where, like what we've seen in the last decade, you have a third of people at the bottom of the income distribution and they cannot get out of that. >> a deeper issue as to what

gets us here in america. i want to stay focused on wages right here. quick quote, walmart is even worse. according to the house on education and taxpayers are paying 1 million in supplemental benefits per walmart store per year. if taxpayers are footing a bill of $1 million because the low wages at 300 employees at a superstore. 100 to 200 at a regular store. think how much walmart is costing taxpayers each year at walmarts 4,131 stores in the u.s. again from ralph nader's letter. my question to you, grover, should taxpayers allow this while walmart posts $17 million in profits and enough excess funds to buy back $90 billion in the stocks over the past five years. to think walmart is sgogoing toy their employees more and still not earn a profit when they had $17 billion in profit.

i mean, it seems a little ludicrous to think that. >> walmart has 1.3 million people working for it. one thing they do is they do hire and promote from within. 75% of their managers started off there. this is the company that trains and employs a great number of people. the argument, ralph nader if he doesn't like the welfare state. if he thinks the 175 means tested programs that exist today that give people money that don't require work in return. if he doesn't like those, he can criticize them. that's not the fault of the rest of the world. the welfare state is expensive to taxpayers. there are better ways to do it. as clinton did with aid to families with dependent children. we should do it to the other major means tested programs and see what works better. >> in all fairness to walmart, do they do pay their employees higher than many chain stores or big box stores and a second or maybe a third to costco which

pays its employees. >> it's about an average of $8 and it's important to remember here that walmart spends money lobbying against the minimum wage. they spent $8 million on lobbying. look, the walton family, like the original walton may be able to take credit for creating this giant empire but the six members alive inherited their welt and they have more wealth than the entire 40% of americans combined. the six members of the walton family have more wealth and spend a huge amount of their money ensuring that their workers don't make a real living wage and walmart is also a job killer. when you see wall marts go into small communities and get rid of small businesses because they cannot compete for the lower prices. for every two new jobs you create in a new walmart, you kill three jobs in the areas where they -- >> thets not true at all. >> and, also, if you work there for a year, you actually do get

benefits, which you may not get at a smaller store. >> but they're killing three jobs for every two jobs they create. >> that's not true. they're not doing that. stand by. stay with me. >> i want to ask you what is a true living wage in the united states today? but, first, let bill maher weigh in. >> now, when it comes to raising the minimum wage, conservatives say it's a nonstarter because it cuts into profits. well, yeah, of course. paying workers is one of those unfortunate expenses of running a business. people don't have to think about where their electricity comes from. they flip the switch-- and the light comes on. it's our job to make sure that it does. using natural gas this power plant can produce enough energy for about 600,000 homes. generating electricity that's cleaner and reliable, with fewer emissions-- it matters. ♪

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back now with "11th hour" a negative two minutes left here. i have 30 seconds left. grover norquist, what is living wage in america? >> a lot more than what people are making now. >> christine? >> i don't think it's possible to determine what a living wamg is. i think it depends where you are and what you live. different in new york versus living in maine. >> alexis. >> i think it's $15 an hour and president obama could do something for the 2 million federal contractors who work at the smithsonian at the cafe if

he's in favor of raising the minimum wage, he should do it for the contractors. >> i think it depends where you live. but in my world, if you're working full time and you have at least one kid, you shouldn't be in poverty. that tells you around what the level is. and you ought to be able to put your family on a path to get out of the situation. so, some education, et cetera. so, i would peg it to that. >> one of you said walmart pays employees $8 an hour and according to them their average is $12. whatever the lowest to the highest there. thank you, all, i appreciate it. tomorrow on "11th hour" what extreme weather is doing to the animal kingdom. brooke baldwin, in case you missed it, starts right now. good evening, i'm brooke baldwin and welcome to the second week ur