affordable care act will increase their health care spending. here's democrat joe manchin on cnn's "state of the union". >> if it's so much more expectative and the coverage is not as good as what we've had, you have a complete meltdown at that time. >> also we learn that the president symbolically signed up, something he doesn't need and yet is still paying for. must be night. mark, not everyone can afford symboli symbolism. i think democrats need to admit this is a real problem in 2014. >> are they already admitting them? some of mice best friends are democrats, i haven't had one one that's not in denial. >> nancy pelosi says it will be a plus. we'll see. here in the crossfire, nira tandit, and will cain. mark, as our guest host, the

first question. >> good. i get to go to will. >> bring it. >> i think you're overstating how bad things are. we've seen sign injures, millions access the site and fewer glitches. what are you going to do when this thing actually starts working? >> i don't think we've stated it far enough. you want in 2014 that you were going to turn the corner. what i'm going to accuse you you have is what -- wishful thinking. you're now on the side of hope and wishfulness. here's your overstatement. to some extent what i'm saying is anticlimactic. the government is dictating the prices of the coverage. we'll see the full-on nationalization. i'm going to let you rebut what you think i know is absurd. you'll see the bailout of the insurance industry. obamacare has set up a sim where insurance companies can no longer exist in this

environment. >> that's a compelling argument, but it's not true. what you're calling wish 68 thinking is i'm calling data. there are millions of people signing up before there were not. just a fact. we saw 1.2 million people signing up. doesn't that mean we're turning a corner? >> we're halfway through this enrollment period, past the rocky roll-out. now we're talking about implementing this. >> right. >> does something in this lay need to be changed to more more effectively? >> we are seeing a rap anybody. if you actually tracked what happened in massachusetts, when massachusetts passed the law under mitt romney, we are way ahead of the sign-up that massachusetts had at this same time. so i'm actually excited about the chance of talking about all these people who have insurance. the fact is, republicans in the next elections will be talking about taking away people's health insurance.

we already have 4 million people signed up through the affordable care act, through medicaid, through the exchanges, getting private health churns, and the children's health insurance program. we'll have something we haven't had in years, which is republicans talk about repeal, actually taking away benefits from people. i think that will be a good debate. >> you and neera have used term "signups." it's a curious term you keep using. >> enrolled. >> the ultimate goal. >> enrolled. >> fine, we'll use your term. the ultimate goal is to deliver health insurance and health care to americans. if it's true what you say that hundreds of thousands have signed up. the goal is 7 million, you have a month or two -- >> we have four monthsing to to that number. >> and you are way bhe hind. >> that doesn't mean people send in checks. that means they celebritied a plan at most. doesn't mean they've been in contact with an insurance

company. that paints what you this i is a rosy picture. p the picket you're you're both painting is true, they wouldn't be delays the deadlines. >> the delay today is just saying, just like we say for every other program, if you're in line tonight, you'll get health care insurance. we're not going to stop you at midnight. if you're processing a claim, we're going to do this. this is like people acting, trying to get health insurance. >> starting december 1st, went to december 15th, now december 23rd, and now moved to december 24th? >> right, all designed to get people covered for health insurance. that's exactly what this is all about. i don't know why it's a negative to you. i guess what i'm saying is we have 500,000 people who have health insurance. as a conservativconservative, i would applaud that. >> i appreciate you -- what i see is a net negative. 4 million. you kicked 5 million off their plans and now you have to make up that ground.

>> that's absolutely false. 500,000 people, if you look at the data, 500,000 people, you have people who will not have a better plan. we're seeing now data that shows people who were getting kicked off their plan -- we're see stories every day. they've lost their coverage and they have a better plan where they play lest. >> so lost coverage is what we call it. >> you're saying they're off the plans, but on to better plans. >> the big problem we had is healthcare.gov didn't work. so now people are seeing their options, and you hear story after story of people saving thousands, that's something you should celebrate. >> will, if the numbers are clearly increasing, isn't that a sign we are turning a corner? >> gills, i'm sorry, but you seem to be living in a dreamland. i assume -- you started out this

program -- 42% thinks obamacare will make them worse off, and you click to a few thousand people that clicked on a website? >> it really does. let's look at more numbers. we talked about that number. 60% of women not into this bill. that's up from 54 in this november, despite the president's mush to moms just last week. 64% of men oppose this law. in california, you only have 20% of the young people signed up. you need between 30 and 40. in kentucky it's the same. >> that's what the targets is -- >> it's not the perfect number. you need 2.7 million young healthy people to sign up to make it affordable. you are nowhere close. >> one of the thing you all have offered -- and by you all i mean republicans -- critique, but not a lot of solution. one solution is to open this up to the free market. the challenge is that things like preexisting conditions may

not be covered, and the efficiency may not work out for the most vulnerable people. >> how do you reconcile that? >> neera and i pull in opposite directions of what they think is ultimately the best health care. allow people to buy cat trophic insurance plans, that allow you if you hit by a bus or get cancer, and everything else from knee surgeries to el about surgeries to an infection, you buy with the regular free market. >> what about the preexisting condition, buff market fishes, a person can't get their preexisting condition covered? >> that's a tough conundrum. they cannot live in the same -- eventually we have to get to what is the definition of insurance? it is designed to mitigate something that has not yet happened. preexisting conditions have already happened. what you're talking about is delivers free health care to

those people. >> illustrate a photo i want to show you before we go to break. we have seen some desperate and silly i think sometimes even offensive attempts to sell obamacare. you had the insurance ads out of colorado, democrats leaving these brochures out at gay nightclubs. we just had an ad marketing oba obamacare to gay consumers. what i don't understand is if this is so great, why isn't it selling itself? why do we see these absolutely ludicrous and desperate attempts at reaching every single person to try to get onto the program? >> i don't know, it looks like apple is pretty good. they still pent mill won selling them. that's wee the -- insurers -- right now is the time that you get coverage. that's why insurers are actually spending tens of millions trying

to get people covered, because they actually know this will work, that there is a market out there. if there was no market, they wouldn't spend the money, but they know there is a market, there is a demand. these premiums are coming in lower. the fact is these plans are actually working, because there's a demand for them. you know what i think is fascinating? the affordable care act is a market, right? people gets subsidies, then can go on the exchange. that's precisely why governor romney and the heritage foundation supported the plans in massachusetts, and that's why i think it's -- that's not true -- >> the prices, the coverage, and you guys have compared yourself to steve jobs and apple, it must be embarrassing. you must recognize you have a problem, that's the only way to fix it. >> i am confident the democrats will have a tough time, but next i want to ask my friend will cain, how do we avoid some of the pitfalls ahead?

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welcome back. nancy pelosi in reality it's unlikely that obama care will be a plus, but eventually people are going to stop worries about web sites and start focusing on economic issues. so to the 1.3 million americans losing benefits, merry christmas from the gop.

it's wrong to less more than a million americans behind. nancy pelosi could be right. democrats have nothing to worry about. will, i know you disagree with everything i just said, but these you can concede that republicans are overplaying their hands and just assuming that obama care will -- >> for the past three, five years. we've been talking about it for -- >> let me be more specific. talking about it by cutting taxes for the wealthy is not exactly what i mean. i'm talking about the idea of racing a federal biff wage and extending unemployment benefits. >> let's bess honest. the truth is everyone knows, you want to submit with an argument quickly, if you raise the price of something you get less of it. you get less of it. the truth is this is a political

argument. you want to pivot to not talking about obamacare, but accusing republicans of hating poor people. >> that, sir -- i wish you guys would have learned that lesson before. the majority of americans want these increases, the extreme wing wants this. >> why are republicans getting blamed for this unemployment insurance? democrats passed this law, the president signed the law. why are republicans in the cross hairs? >> there seems to be republican opposition to this. >> yeah, they opposed pouting it in the budget agreement. >> democrats made it happen. they needed democrat votes to pass it. the president signed it into law. why isn't it a pox on both houses. >> because the democrats pushed for it in the budget negotiations. it's paul ryan and -- >> since you brought it up. >> the republican leadership opposed putting it in.

i'm glad the president is finally addressing it. he virtually ignored it for four years and the income inequality gap has widened, but it doesn't bring people to the polls. are you telling me democrats will run on raising the minimum wage? >> absolutely. >> that's the big idea? i hope -- >> you know, republicans, 70% of republicans nationally support it, 70% support it in arkansas, in kentucky. look at the state polls. there's economic populism flowing in those southern states, those districts, and it's working against republicans. that's why allison grils is campaigning on it. she's going to win? >> she's doing very well. she's even in the polls. >> she's not going to win, neera c'mon. >> i think you should take note of someone in the polls -- >> i thought the point is to win, right? you guys want to win in 2014,

maybe pick up some house seats. my overall point is this is a popular issues among republicans. i would say to your arguments economic data after economic data shows that when we raise wages, people can buy and consume more. it's a simple concept. so people have more money to actually purchase. we have looked at states that have raised minimum wage. the unemployment has gone down. >> hold on a second. the simple rye buttal is why not raise it to $50 an hour then? >> because we're just looking at today data points of what works, see if 10 works. i think -- >> you haven't hansed the initial question, right? which was -- if this is the popular consensus of everyday american people on both sides of the aisle, will republicans lose ground in 2014 by not taking that position? >> no, i'll ask the political question and then there's a economic question. i agree with s.e., if you had to

adopt the elizabeth warening senator of massachusetts, if moss misand new york city are your model no national politics, i wish you luck. to your economic point -- >> neither one of them are campaigning on -- >> to the economy point you bring up, in the end i ask you, do you want to raise it, you want data points and -- >> let's start with $10. >> there's a thread that ties all our conversations took. from obam -- is that you want the american people to gant you the power to, give you -- to your arrogance that you know the right price of labor, you know how much people should make and after we've lost you mess up the health care market, you want you to act on the heels of that? >> my only response to that is we have a growing income inequality, we have declining -- maybe your answer is just let everything be as it is, but i think americans want solutions. a simple solution is a federal

minimum wage to insure there's some fairness, if you work hard, 40 hours a week, you should not be resigned to poverty. that i thought was a -- >> do you believe there's no room economically for a federal minimum wage increase? >> i am absolutely libertarian. >> the federal wage makes no sense because cost of living changes from area to area, region to region. $10 an hour in new york is different than $10 an hour in topeka. i want to talk about the gop. and i think we do have a real problem. earlier this year, chris christie seemed to scold rand paul. he said we're not a debating society. we've got to win elections. i think that is the gop debate of the next year. are we for principles and purity

or for winning elections. >> the answer is you have to be both. i've heard you talk about it on air. mike lee put this perfectly. our goals should not be to identify heretics in our party, but converts. >> if you take that approach, though, right, if you take that approach, don't you end up with a gop that simply ignores the economic issue that we just talked about? that decides -- do you know what i mean? i'm worried the gop won't take the right position on this. >> the goal of the gop on economics is to find yourself on the most tried and true mechanism for everybody in society, that is to embrace the free market. not to embrace the politicians and bureaucrats who know better, but to give it to the one mechanism that has lifted human beings from poverty to wealth in

history, and that is capitalism. >> you don't support the new deal, because you don't support the federal minimum wage. let's just have a ballet proech to these things. >> the final thing for you at home. do you think obamacare will be the biggest issue of the 2014 midterm elections. tweet yes or no. we'll have the results after the break. [ female announcer ] there's one thing dave's always wanted to do when he retires -- keep working, but for himself. so as his financial advisor, i took a look at everything he has. the 401(k). insurance policies. even money he's invested elsewhere. we're building a retirement plan to help him launch a second career. dave's flight school. go dave. when people talk, great things can happen. so start a conversation with an advisor who's fully invested in you.

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we're back. now it's time for the final question. i know you're optimistic that immigration reform can happen this year. and the president sounded bullish on it as well. are democrats willing to accept an immigration reform that does not include a pathway to citizenship? >> no, and i don't think they should. i hope that we'll have a bill on the house floor, after, during the republican primaries. it seems like people are more interested in the house republican caucus. and taking that up after the primaries, but i hope there will be a real conference on this. i think the path to citizenship is really popular. it should be 60% of the american people, 55% to 60% of independents support it. so i think it should be in the time bill. and i think republicans would do

well to support a path to citizenship. that's what's spurring latino voters. >> the president says he's not going to negotiate on this debt ceiling. republicans are preparing the things they want to negotiate about. >> the lesson politically. the republicans lose on shutdowns. you cannot fight over a shutdown. i would tell you this, i do not think the debt ceiling should be used as leverage to extract minimal demands. it has huge uncertainty on markets worldwide. in the end, i'm for economic growth. >> i agree. >> we all agree with economic growth. >> i agree on that. >> what did i tell you during the last break? they'd agree with me. >> if there's a whole host of

other issues that president obama laid out in his inaugural address, climate change, gun control, what if any of that can get done? it seems like he's had a tough time with this. >> the president has a climate action plan. and i think, they have to, actually. that's going to be, there are going to be rules coming out from the epa, et cetera. that's going to be a management challenge for him. >> why can't he pass the keystone pipeline. am i right? >> he's not going to be able to do anything in 2014. >> 23409 immigration, not keystone, not nothing? >> he has bungled it because of obamacare. it has ruined his legislative capital. >> thanks. go to facebook. or twitter to weigh in on our fire back question.

do you think obamacare will be the biggest issue of the midterm elections. right now, 61% of you say yes. 39% say no. the debate continues on cnn.com/crossfire as well as facebook and twitter. >> from the left, i'm mark lamont hill. >> i'm s.e. cupp. erin burnett out front starts right now. next, deadline delay. the white house extends the obamacare signup date, again. >> consumers have somewhat of an early christmas gift. but a recent poll shows this is a christmas gift they could do without. and duck dilemma. how a&e is now on the defensive. >> that ought to be on our side, too, i think.