kwaurks and gluons become defined. we would like to sincerely thank him for taking a break from that to answer our question about when we go weewee into the cold. i think we all learned something tonight on the ridiculist. what i'm not exactly sure. i hope you enjoyed the program. we'll see you again one hour from now, 10:00 p.m. eastern. thanks for watching. thanks for watching. piers morgan live starts now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com this is "piers morgan live." welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world. back in september the traffic jam from hell turned fort lee into a virtual parking lot. coincidentally or maybe not as we've now learned, the town's mayor just refused to endorse governor chris christie for

re-election. is this a case of political payback? fort lee's mayor told wolf blitzer earlier today. >> those that are responsible are responsible for this most heinous act, they can no longer be in positions of power in government. >> a massive traffic with a question of life and death in several cases where people were waiting for ambulances. talked to the new york-jersey lawmaker who says chris christie should come clean and come clean now.

>> is there some surprise that he hasn't already taken action and fired those responsible? . well, it's a difficult situation over there. because the alternative to not knowing was knowing, which would have been another headache. but the headache he's dealing with is that governor christie did not know what was going on in his own office, apparently, and while he says he was misled by a member of his staff, the e-mail seemed to suggest that others, including people at the port authority, may have had knowledge of what was going on. the governor did tonight promise accountability for those responsible, so he says it's going to happen, piers. >> so john, thank you very much indeed. joining me now on the phone is the mayor of fort lee, mark sokolich. mr. mayor, what is your reaction to chris christie's statement late this afternoon? >> that he's appalled, i guess i wish it came a little earlier. it came four months into this debacle. it would have been a little bit more sincere, i believe if it happened within a day or two or

three of all this happening. but it took four day of complete shutdown, resignations, engagement of criminal defense attorneys, senate subcommittee meetings, and now the revelation that the existence of these e-mails to make the statement. it was always pretty obvious what had transpired. i think it was really, piers, the only guy in the world that was hoping that this wasn't the case. i think everybody else knew it. i just was in denial, quite frankly. >> do you believe that chris christie knew nothing about this as he claims? >> i don't know. i mean, i don't want to speculate. i've been saying that although as time transpires and events unfold, it becomes disheartening to believe that it's this close to the governor's office, quite frankly. two high-ranking officials at the port, now we have a deputy chief of staff, we have a campaign manager who apparently

sent an e-mail call meeg ing me idiot but putting this stuff in e-mails. it seems like it's getting closer and closer. i don't want to speculate, but it seems like it's just getting closer. >> well, it cuts right into the heart of of course chris christie's brand which is being a straight guy who lives and breathes for the people of new jersey. let's watch a little clip from an interview i did with him in february 2012 where he directly talks about that responsibility. >> all i could tell you is what i do. and my view is here in new jersey that i'm responsible for every new jerseyan, no matter how much money they make, no matter where they live, no matter how many children they have, whether they've lived here their whole lives or they just moved here, whether their kids are in school or whether they're retired and living on a fixed income. as the governor, as the president, you are ultimately responsible for everyone. you need to care about everyone the exact same way. and as governor, my view is all of them deserve our attention. of course we're not going to let

the most vulnerable suffer and we haven't in new jersey and we shouldn't in america. >> i mean, it seems to me that whichever way you look at this, what has happened whether it's his senior staff or whether chris christie had any involvement himself which at the moment he resolute lly denies, t people in his office and the port authority potentially putting people's lives at risk. we know four separate incidents involving emergency services being delayed by minutes and getting to people who have called for emergencies. it's hard to imagine a more serious abuse of power than this, is it, mr. mayor? >> i would agree. and i've been questioned. people have questioned my decision not to really end near this fray until now. last four or five months -- last four months or so i've been fending off interview requests and statement requests after requests. now i think i have to keep my responsibility if i don't speak up a little bit. we always knew these people's lives were put in harm's way.

these were documents we were required to produce. we knew they were going to eventually surfaces. to our credit we didn't grandstand. this is the reality of things. by the way, the e-mail that you're referring to i believe was issued to me only on day two. that was halfway through day two. as far as day three and four, i can only imagine. >> let me ask you, if we actually read some of this it's a text from you to bill boroni. >> at that point i'm begging. >> right. you're saying presently we have four very busy traffic lanes merging into only one toll booth. the bigger problem is getting kids to school. help, please, it's hardening. then a text from an unknown person to david wildstein saying is it wrong that i'm smiling. wildstein no. unknown person i feel badly about the kids. i guess. wildstein, they are children of buono voters. an absolute lack of any empathy. a chilling kind of political revenge aspect to all this. from people running the port authority and leading right to

the center of chris christie's operations. what do you think should happen now? should people be fired? should any of these people be in a job by tomorrow morning the ones that have been claimed today? >> people that are in these positions of authority that behave this way that put petty politics ahead of the health, safety and welfare of my residents and the residents of the entire state of new jersey truly can't be in those positions. i'm sorry. if you know me for 30 seconds, there is not an ounce of venom in my blood. it takes a lot for me to say that. it takes a lot for me to reach that conclusion. they can't be put in those positions. look, it's a privilege to serve. i don't want to sound corny like this is rehearsed it's not. i serve as the mayor of fort lee. after father and husband i view it as the most important job i have. the statement that the governor said before that you replayed is precisely the statement i make and i've made on behalf of the residents of my town. one distinction, though, i abide by it. it is truly an absolute privilege to serve.

and if you can't distinguish between politics and political vendetta you do not belong in those positions. but i have a feeling that many of them will no longer be in those positions. and i'm sure you'll also hear that this was part of a career path, and they were going to be resigning, anyway, or they were going to be fired, anyway. it's not true. this is a problem. and my bigger problem, piers, is what's going to happen to fort lee once all of this coverage goes by the wayside in a month, in two and three and six and nine. what retribution do we have to look forward to here in fort lee? because let's face it there's many different ways you can skin this cat. that's what i've been scared of since day one. >> the final question, mr. mayor. briefly if you don't mind. have you heard from anybody in chris christie's camp? >> no, zero. no one. >> no apologies. >> remain mindful, piers, i'm not on his radar so i trust i'm not in his rolodex, either. >> mayor, thank you very much

for joining me. >> my pleasure. you i bring in loretta wineberg. also a columnist for the bergen county record who's covered this from the very start. let me talk to you first, loretta weinberg. what is your reaction to this extraordinary development today which lays clear evidence now that takes right to the heart of chris christie's operation that they did this deliberately? >> well, i've been involved in this issue for four months, which mayor sokolich knows. i represent fort lee, indeed i lived in fort lee for a couple of years. so i know this area quite well. i know the geography very well. i have been to four port authority commission meetings in october, november, december. i have asked question after question. so let's look at this whole thing. i am really glad that the governor has finally, after four months, expressed outrage.

let me point out that all of the new jersey commissioners are nominated by the governor. he is the one who appoints them. then we move ahead to his two top lieutenants at the port authority, the deputy executive director and mr. wildstein who was a childhood buddy of his. when those two people left and it was a parent that they were directly involved with this, the governor never asked them, did anybody in my office have anything to do with this. the governor should know that. >> let me jump in. should chris christie be firing people over this? >> yes, absolutely. i will back up what mayor sokolich just said. anybody who used the george washington bridge -- just think about it. it's almost difficult for me to find the right words to express this. this is the busiest bridge in the world. it is a homeland security

target. and they created a traffic jam and put our citizens in jeopardy and caused our children to be late to school? >> it's pretty disgraceful. >> it's unbelievable. >> it is unbelievable. let me go to the road warrior, reporter for the bergen record. the argument that's been spun until now from the christie camp is that they were conducting some traffic study. is there any credibility to that? is there any evidence to support it? is it likely that that was ever in their minds? >> well, if you call a traffic study four days where you have the idea put forward that you're going to close a few lanes and look at that, i suppose you vaguely could call that a traffic study. but there are much better ways to do this. i mean, you've got cameras all over the place. you've got computers. you can look at the -- you can read the license plates.

you know where people are coming from. it's hardly necessary to run -- to actually stop traffic and bring it down to one lane at that location. for 30 years it's been done that way. why not continue it? >> as you're talking, john, we're actually looking at pictures from the time back in september where you can see the traffic cones and everything else. what is significant it seems to me there's no warning given to officials or the police or anybody. this just happened first thing in the morning. that would suggest this was a deliberate attempt to do what we now believe was a form or corruption, really. >> yeah yeah. it sure looks that way. >> and in fact, under oath when the manager of the bridge testified before the assembly transportation committee, he said he got a very clear direction. you are not to tell anybody in fort lee. that was a clear communication. so they can't claim any miscommunications here.

the governor heard that testimony. >> i'm going to have to leave it there from both of you. thank you very much for joining me. chris christie's bridge scandal is turning into a headache for who may be the republican candidate for president. with me is my panel. ryan, i was reading your tweets about this earlier today. and you were not pulling punches. how serious could this be for chris christie? >> it's very serious. i think it could threaten his presidential ambitions if he is directly tied to this scandal, which he hasn't yet been. he denied that his staff had anything to do with this. we now know that's not true. and in a statement today he has said that he was misled. so if that's the end of it, if this woman bridget, who clearly set this whole thing in motion, if she is -- it's obvious she's not going to survive this, working for chris christie much longer. i think we all know that.

if that's the only person in chris christie's office who is tied to this, he will -- i think he can survive this. but he has to deal with the fact that he wasn't honest when he said that his staff wasn't involved. and there are the questions of how did a culture in chris christie's office get created where someone who is so close to him would go to someone who is his best friend, to the guy at the port authority, and think it was okay to spend $60,000 on a fake traffic study and punish a local mayor who didn't endorse chris christie when chris christie was 25 points ahead in the polls. >> that's the thing. andy, let's bring you in here. it seems so utterly pointless. he didn't need to do this. it seems so petty and plays right to the claims against chris christie over the years, he's a bit of a bully. whether he knew or not, if the staff are behaving like this, that in itself is outrageous, isn't it? >> exactly. it's not only vindictive,

politically it's stupid. how did these folks think that fort lee residents were going to be blaming their mayor and not the governor for sitting in traffic for three to four hours and a governor not interceding on their behalf. that doesn't even make sense politically. to ryan's point, chris christie i think can survive this. but that depends on if the e-mail and texting traffic doesn't lead directly to him. clearly bridget needs to be fired. i think her next job will be for kim jong-un because she has very petty tir ran cendencies that d belong in government are. >> are we getting too excited about politics? when you remember george washington bridge is the busiest in the world as a terror target right up there and here you are deliberately creating a mass traffic jam, therefore potentially mass casualties. >> absolutely. i don't think we could possibly overstate the importance of this. last month chris christie tried to tell us that was the case. he said i'm a national figure

now so the democrats are attacking me. that has proven to be untrue. this was not a democratic plot. this was in fact a very real thing. it's hard to imagine also that he didn't know about it. everyone who knows chris christie, anyone close to his administration knows he is a notorious micromanager. he runs that place with an iron fist. it's hardly imaginable that anything could happen without him knowing about it. so for me this is a mark on his character, even fit doesn't go all the way to him in terms of a smoking gun. questions will be raised throughout the next two years, will hurt him as he supports candidates around the country in 2014 and decides to run for president in 2016. >> i'm going to actually leave the viewers in suspense for your verdict. we'll come back after the break, i want two things from you. one your reaction to this and the media treatment. also roger ales news. what is the power he wields after going after potential presidential candidates? we'll find out more after the break.

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you like the fact that you have this slightly intimidating reputation? >> i don't like it. it's just kind of what it is. it's who i am. and i think what people in new jersey have gotten to know about me over the last decade while i've been in public life is what you see is what you get. and i'm no different when i'm sitting with you than i am when i'm at home or any place else. >> christie back in 2011. back with me now my panel. brian, this is the very brand, isn't it, of chris christie. he's a straight-talking guy. he calls it as it is. he's not like the other guys in washington. so this is cut right to the quick really of his reputation. what do you make of this and the way the media is responding?

>> this is cat nip for the media. i think in part because it involves something everybody hates which is traffic. actually i'd say the local traffic reporter in new york city, she monitors the george washington bridge every day. and she reminds me, people don't notice when traffic is flow will smoothly but they always notice when traffic is snarled up, when they're stuck in an accident. that's true across the country. that's why this story resonates. i also think that there's something about this that reveals something about politician. we all sort of assume that politicians act this way, they're petty, vindictive. here are the e-mails to prove anytime this case. that's people are paying attention to this today. this is kind of thing you might see go on in politics. but truth be told, i can't actually remember a government official doing something like this. >> no. >> someone said today i read a tweet may have been you, somebody said this is worse than nixon and watergate. when you actually think about this, it's pretty well out

there. >> i'm not sure i'd go that far. >> here's what the argument was. the argument was that in terms of the actual crime, to actually shut down effectively traffic around the busiest bridge in america, putting all those people at risk, putting people expecting emergency services, that is pretty damn serious. so i didn't think the analogy was as ridiculous as you all do. >> here's the thing. it's not as big of a crime perhaps. but what it does speak to -- >> isn't it? if it turns out people -- what if it turns out that this 91-year-old woman who died of a heart attack could have been saved if they had got there four minutes early year, for example? [ overlapping speakers ] >> then it becomes a bigger criminal case. become a bigger conspiracy. becomes a bigger conversation. what i'm saying is the intentionality of the christie campaign certainly wasn't to kill a 91-year-old woman.

but it indicates a certain kind of pathology. a guy who was winning an election by 25%. there was no question he was going to win that election by a landslide is still punishing a small town mayor and its citizens for an endorsement. >> let's remind everyone that he vehemently denies knowing any of it. you were shaking your head. >> if we're going to really get into it about people living and dying let's talk about infrastructure, let's talk about building more bridges and tunnels. we don't want to get too caught up in a small scandal and not talk about broader issues affecting new york and new jersey. governor chris christie has so much more power than just this one lane on a bridge. >> also part of the media fascination with this is so many of us have so many experience in politics whether working for a politician or covering them. this story so far doesn't seem to add up. why didn't the governor get to the bottom of this when this was a huge national story at the time? if you didn't know, if he was being misled, why is bridget ann kelly still on the payroll? she should be gone, fired already. not just for politics but also

for personal reasons, that if she was acting this way as i said a petty tyrant who was actually putting people's lives at risk -- >> i've got to jump in. i agree. it's amazing that she's still on the job now, frankly. i would have thought when i first saw that e-mail. let's turn to brian quickly to the fox revelations here to gabriel sherman book, new york magazine contributor incredibly well-researched book. 600 interviews apparently. one of the main revelations in this that you think we're all going to be gorging over? >> i think people skeptical of fox news are going to read this book and be sure once and for all that fox news is an arm of the republican party. now of course, fox news says it's not. roger ailes denies a lot of the allegations in the book. but there are stories after stories after stories in this book about how roger ailes is interested in influencing republican politics. and frankly in beating barack obama. there are parts in the book that talk about how he believed it was his duty to defeat barack

obama because nobody else was going to. now of course we saw the results of the election. if you look at the results of the election that means roger ailes failed a year and a half ago in that election. but i think the book will get to those roots. and of course, if you're a fox fan, if you're a fan of roger ailes you won't believe a word of is, anyway. >> the thing that's interesting about roger ailes, you can appreciate he's some kind of genius. phenomenally successful. bill o'reilley is a book salesman with a tv show. don't know how he'll react to that. he told his inner circle i want to elect the next president. interesting today that fox has bail touched this christie story. may be trying to protect their man. he called brian kill killmeade a soccer coach from long island. nothing particularly surprising to me roger ailes would be like that. but is he damaging this book or does this simply add to the

myth? >> i think there are some damaging revelations. but i know the author of this book, gabe sherman, is one of the best reporters i know working in journalism today. not a partisan bone in his body. and i guarantee, when the book first comes out the sort of sexiest revelations always get the most attention and perhaps the most damning things about roger ailes. i guarantee when you read this book, which i haven't i admit, it will be a fair-minded account that will give ailes his due for what he created at fox news, which i don't think anyone can argue is sort of amazing accomplishment. but he will also show a lot of negative things about ailes. gabe sherman does not pull his punches. and i think there's going to be if i know fox news there's going to be a bit of a concerted campaign against gabe sherman. >> i don't think so. i think it started already. >> i think there's going to be some response. largely they'll ignore it. i don't think there's a moral expectation about tv executives

and fox news. the people that don't like fox news -- i think that continues. people who hate fox news will just have more ammunition to hate fox news. so i don't think you'll see a large shift in how the public responds to this. i don't think people will be disappointed in fox news. they don't expect much. >> seems to me if these are the juiciest bits in this book it's pretty thin gruel. this just in. [ overlapping speakers ] >> hang on. it's not just the way i've described it. there is a pretty serious allegation in there that television producer randi haroldson said while negotiating her salary he negotiated 100 pounds a week extra if you agree to have sex with me whenever i want. sorry dollars. these charges are false say fox news in a statement. while we have not read the book, the only reality here is that gabe was not provided any direct access to roger ailes and the book was never fact checked with fox news. have to leave that. the book is not out yet. when it does we can all see it for what it is and see how roger

ailes reacts to it. we were talk going to talk about dennis rodman singing happy birthday to kim jong-un but i can't be bothered. disgracing himself and everybody else. utterly embarrassing. to my panel thank you very much. i'm going to say how much i'm loving the rival sources under your tenure. >> excellent work. good to have you on the show. >> thanks. the real life homeland of former top cia lawyer who says water boarding is not torture.

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give me one e-mail and i will stop this. who was in the saudi group? what's the target? where was the last time you saw bin laden? >> harrowing water boarding scene from "zero dark thirty." my next guest says water boarding is not torture. the general counsel to the cia and author of "company man" the controversy and crisis in the cia. he joins me now. welcome to you. there's a great quote on the back of your book from a "washington post" columnist saying "think of tom hagan, the corleone lawyer in the god father and you begin to get the flavor of what rizzo has seen and heard. so you're tom hagen in this operation. how dirty did it get? >> well, i don't want to take

this analogy with "the god father" too far. but in some respects, my role over three decades was to be the conciliary so to speak for the cia organization. and there were times of mini crises, challenges, screw ups, triumphs occasionally. so i mean, it was never a dull moment. >> when i watched "zero dark thirty" which i saw again the other day, you see that scene of water boarding. you don't believe it is torture. most people watching it would say it obviously is. why do you think there's no line crossed there? >> well, first i should make clear, the water boarding that was done in the course of the cia interrogation program, by no means are docile, was not exactly the way it was depicted

in that film. i don't mean to downplay the aggressiveness of it. mr. morgan, i'm a lawyer. i'm a lawyer for the cia. and torture is a u.s. statute, is defined in u.s. statute. if i thought or if the the justice department to whom i n consubtco conconsulted concluded this crossed the bounds into torture we wouldn't have done it. so were these practices rough? were they harsh? were some of them even brutal? sure. but i didn't believe then and i still don't believe that any of them crossed the boundary into torture. although i understand how people could strongly believe otherwise. it's been a controversy now. >> another former cia lifer, former defense secretary robert gates has a book out.

probably the most damning of many revelations is on afghanistan, he says president obama doesn't believe it his own strategy, doesn't consider the war to be his. for him it's all about getting out. the reason he i said damaging he said although obama supported the troops he didn't support mission at all. can you really be president of the united states and so apparently openly not support a mission for which you've committed hundreds of thousands of troops? >> well, honestly, i would like to think that the president, that any president would not be that cynical, really. but i will say this about bob gates. i knew mr. gates, worked with him in the beginning of the mid 1980s when he was like me a cia lifer. and he was always back then and he continued to be over the years a straight shooter, very careful man, a man who did not make rash judgements or

characterization. a man who certainly didn't make things up. so i mean, personally, if this is what bob gates' characterization is of what he saw and heard, i believe bob gates. >> when you finished your book what would you say were the best and the worst moments of your 30-year tenure at the cia? >> well, my best moment i suppose was the decision to end at the cia. i arrived in the mid 70s fired a shot in the dark not knowing what i was getting into. obviously i stayed there 34 years, really half my life. so it was the best professional decision i ever made. now the worst thing that happened to me in the cia, i guess it would have to be all the controversy and crisis that occurred in the mid -- beginning

2003, 2004, when the wind shifted and the interrogation program began. for the first time in my career, i became involuntarily not only a public figure but a controversial and divisive figure. and so that was disconcerting to say the least. >> it's a fascinating book. "company man" 30 years of controversy and crisis in the cia. appreciate you joining me. thank you very much. >> thank you. coming up miracle on the hudson happened five years ago next week and turned my next guest into a real american hero, captain sully sullenberger. on whether we should be flying in this weather and whether we should be using our cell phones in mid-air. take up to 6 tylenol in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. all aboard. ♪

you stand behind what you say. there's a saying around here, around here you don't make excuses. you make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up, and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it when you know where to look.

the miracle on the hudson happened five years ago. the emergency water landing of u.s. air flight 1549 there was not one fatality on the hudson river on a day that wasn't much warmer than in new york right now. the hero of that landing, retired captain sully sullenberger has a lot to say about air safety and he's with me now. welcome, captain sul enburger. a real sear row. an honor to meet you. >> thank you. >> i remember it vividly. can't believe it's five years ago. what are your recollections as you look back on it? do you feel a hero? >> it's certainly one of those events where people remember where they were when they heard about it. i see this story inspired people. and i've become the public face of it. while i don't consider my actions heroic, i think my crew

did themselves under very difficult circumstances. of course this was something that was unanticipated, for which we'd never specifically trained but we were able to very quickly take what we did know, adapt it and apply it in a new way to solve a problem we hadn't seen before. >> despite all the training that you must go through, when you're in that kind of dramatic emergency, what is the reality about what you go through? >> you have to realize that at this point in my career, 57, 58 years old, i'd been flying airplanes for 42 years. in that entire time i had never experienced in flight the actual failure of even a single engine. >> really. >> i thought late in my career i probably wouldn't and i was wrong. so after many years of planning and anticipating and working hard never to be surprised by anything in an airplane, we were suddenly 100 seconds after takeoff confronted with all the mate challenge of a lifetime. and it was shocking in my body and responded in a very normal physiological way to it. i could feel my blood pressure

and pulse shoot up in those seconds. but we had the presence of mind and discipline to focus on the task at hand in spite of an iconic picture of you with all the survivors. when you look at it what do you feel about the fact that you saved all those lives, you and your team? >> grateful. so much went right. and the fact that we got so much so right so quickly under those conditions is a real testament to not only our experience and training but all the preparation that not only that we had done, our profession had done, but the industry had done to make that kind of an event successful. >> a controversy at the moment about jetblue, the airline that's been suspending hundreds of thousands of flights people's flights, blaming rest requirements of pilots. what is your view of this? >> you have to realize that the new federal rest rules were implemented in -- were announced in december 2011. so the airlines have had over

two years to plan, to prepare, to fully staff, to train and to provide all the resources to implement this rule. now of course with any new rule there are going to be some confusion about exactly how it's applied in every circumstance. but we'll see to what extent this rule may have been a factor. >> you don't sound overly impressed by jetblue's excuse under those circumstances. >> yeah. i think to a certain extent it's like the dog ate my homework. they knew this was coming. it was no surprise. i think it's important to remember also why this new fatigue rule is so important. after many decades of having trips where pilots would sometimes get an opportunity for only five hours of sleep and have 16-hour duty days we finally have addressed this issue more successfully. and the purpose of this rule is to prevent accidents and to save lives. the inconveniences that occur, if they are attributed some of them to this rule, it's in the interest of safety. >> we have actually an interview coming in the next segment to do with the cnn movie tomorrow

night "sole survivor" which is the widow of a pilot actually where he'd gone 36 hours and had barely any sleep, which is exactly the point that we're talking about now. final point for you, these cell phones that we all now have, we're now being told there's going to be a relaxation of the rules, already have been on certain flights. what do you feel as a very, very experienced pilot of long-standing? did you feel that these were potentially able to cause a plane to come down or to cause some kind of computer malfunction? >> there had been reports over the years, not a lot but some, of interference with in flight systems. the problem is, it could hardly ever be directly attributable to a specific cause. so i think out of an abundance of caution for many years there was a blanket ban, largely because no one had ever tested all the possible electronic devices. but the airlines now are doing this, certificate fi certifying are tolerant.

on very low visibility landings, the crew may still require everyone to turn off their electronic devices when the airplane is close to the ground and under electronic control until landing. and that's only about 1% of flights. but if the crew asks you to turn them off, it's important that you do so. >> captain sulen berger, it's been brilliant to meet you. thank you again for your incredible service that day, five years ago. on behalf of all the passengers that you saved, a real american hero. thank you very much. >> thank you, piers. captain sully turned what could have been a disaster into a miracle. coming up the flip side. this man was the sole survivor of galaxy flight 203 which crashed in 1995. i'll talk to him next.

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took off on january 21, 1985. i didn't move here to be near the crash scene. it was more of a -- i don't know. >> george lancen in the film "sole survivor" it tells the stories of passengers who were the only survivors of plane crashes. joining me now is george. also is amy, whose husband jeffrey was a pilot of a flight that crashed off of take off. everyone on board killed except her husband's co-pilot. welcome to both of you. george, it's an extraordinary film. only 14 people in the world who survived solely a plane crash. and you're one of those people. four of them are interviewed for this movie. what do you feel about that

weird place in history that you have? >> that's a good question. i don't really think about that. i focus on just being alive and doing the best i can. i don't think about that. >> when was the first moment you realized you were the only one that got out? >> two weeks after the accident happened, my father survived about a week and a half and he passed away. then there was another man who died also after two weeks. then i was the last one to live. >> it's such a strange thing, isn't it? to suddenly look at a plane wreckage, you lost your own father, all these other people lost their lives. do you ever wonder why me? why was i the lucky one? >> yeah, i went through that for many years. i would think about why me and it brought me into a bad place. it took me a long time to realize that if i don't focus on why me and just appreciate what

i have, that brought me to a better place. the why me brings negative. >> i would imagine most of the media coverage that you received afterwards was pretty positive. >> yes. >> would that be fair? >> yes, it was. >> amy, coming to you, probably the complete opposite, because your husband, who died in this flight, pilot jeffrey clay, he was the captain of the flight. obviously, the pilot and the co-pilot, who was paralyzed, and i know you stay in touch with him, they were blamed for what hand. you were his widow. you had two very young daughters. must have been excruciating to lose your husband, then see the blame game being placed on your husband. >> i can say the opposite of george's experience. your personal family details flashed across cnn, to see words

spoken by my husband under the assumption that it was private, just a conversation between two people put out there for the whole world to look at. and then it was also very difficult. we had aviation experts that wanted to chime in and make assumptions about him that were not -- they didn't fit with the person i knew. these were total strangers that had never met jeff at all, and they all had an opinion and they all wanted to have their name in the paper. i don't know what the motivation was. >> you stayed in touch with jim. he's a paraplegic, i believe, and he lives with a tremendous burden of all these people dying. it's probably a harsh question, but in a way, are you pleased that your husband has. had to live in that kind of condition with that kind of burden? >> i've said many, many times that i don't think that jim drew the lone straw. i don't think that my husband could have lived with a

situation, and there was so much that went into that accident, so much more than what the ntsb put out there. even with that, there's always responsibility with the crew no matter what. although i would have taken jeff in any form or fashion, i'm grateful he didn't have to live with this, because i don't think he could have stood it. >> i think you were saying before the she, he had only had six hours' sleep in 36 hours. >> no, not jeff, that was the controller in the tower. jeff was rested. >> but again, jetblue would say they're being ultracautious is that the lack of sleep is paramount for everyone involved, air traffic control, pilots, everyone else. >> absolutely. anything we can do to tighten the aviation safety system overall. the system itself is a series of links in a chain. there are many people that contribute to getting a plane safely off the ground and everything in between. anything at all that can be done

to tighten that system is important to get to the bottom of and figure out how to do it. >> how are your girls doing? >> they're doing wonderful. they're 7 and 9 and fund an thriving. jeff and i were both blonde, so i have two blonde babies. i have a dancer and a gymnast. they're very social, love to travel and they are great kids. i'm so blessed to have them. >> it's great to meet you. you've been through a very dramatic deal, and did you. george, it's an interesting movie "the sole survivor" airs tomorrow night. "ac 360 later" starts in just a few minutes. hey linda!

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hey, everyone, welcome t