extreme conservatives. new york has a long history of electing democrats and republicans statewide who are moderate rather than on the extreme ends of the political spectrum. that is an inarguable fact. the letter goes on, quote, the governor is a gun owner and a can the lick. his faith is very important to him and he respects the second amendment. the governor's main principle for new york state is tolerance of different opinions, races, sexual orientation and religion. you can always follow what's going on in "the situation room" on twitter. "crossfire" starts right now. tonight on "crossfire," one of the country's most explosive flashpoints -- >> the real war today is

actually a war on motherhood. >> with no room for compromise. >> we cannot allow the opponents of life to continually weaken the moral fabric of our country. >> is the country changing? on the left, sally kohn. on the right, newt gingrich. in the "crossfire," ilyse hogue, the president of naral pro choice america and lila rose, the president of live action. what's changing in the national debate and with voters' attitudes? tonight on "crossfire." >> welcome to "crossfire." i'm sally kohn on the left. >> i'm newt gingrich on the right. in the "crossfire" tonight, guests with very different views on the value of life. today in washington, we saw thousands of people in a minus 4 windchill standing to protest babies being killed. in their view, it's a moral issue that is literally life and death.

we've been having these marches since the supreme court decided roe versus wade 41 years ago. but here's what's different. new technologies now enable us to see that an unborn baby is a baby, not just a lot of tissue, and we now understand that unborn babies feel pain. faced with this technology, killing babies becomes harder and harder to defend, which is why 64% of americans now oppose any abortion in the second trimester and 80% oppose third trimester abortions. and that's why the debate is changing. >> but, you know, here's the other issue you're missing in that introduction, newt, which is this isn't about personal views on abortion. i respect your views. the difference is, my views don't infringe on your views. whereas your position literally restricts my choices and my rights. >> sure. >> in the "crossfire" tonight, ilyse hogue, the president of naral pro choice america. and lila rose, president of live

action, an anti-abortion group. lila, just last year, 22 states enacted stricter abortion laws and we're seeing because of those laws in places like texas, more and more women are choosing to self-abort, they're turning to self-abort as a resort because there is no more access to safe and legal abortion in the state or limited. don't you feel that your positions, your extreme positions are forcing women toward these more dangerous options? >> i think that we should dare to have a better view for america and our women by saying we shouldn't believe and have to think that women need abortion and that we have to kill our children to achieve the dreams and careers and the families that we want. i think we can do better than that as a society. women deserve better. we should fight at the community level for programs that are positive that help mothers if they're single mothers. improve the foster care and adoption system so we can welcome children to this country instead of seeing them as a

threat and killing them by the thousands each day. >> the question specifically is for the women who still do choose abortion, restricting their option leads them to more dangerous choices -- >> why are they in that position? why are they in the position to feel like they have to commit a abortion? let's look at the reasons and address the reasons. but let's not turn to killing, dismembering, poisoning, killing our littlest americans as a solution to these problems. >> ilyse, if you read the rationale of roe versus wade, it was based on a particular moment in time about viability of the baby and a whole elaborate argument about that. the fact is with new technologies and new scientific breakthroughs, something like 80% to 90% of all babies survive after 26 weeks. shouldn't we look seriously at

how if roe versus wade were being decided today it would set a much later date and say that clearly this is no longer questionable, abortion, anytime, anywhere. but it would say, there is a cut-off because after that date, the baby clearly is viable and is a baby? >> well, absolutely the vast majority of women who decide not to carry a pregnancy to term do so in the very early stages of their pregnancy. and if they do later-term abortions, it's because of the life of the mother -- complicated decisions, which is why when americans hear how complicated those situations are, that they are among the most complicated medically -- they believe that the choice should remain between a woman and her doctor, not with politicians who are not the

experts. >> let me ask you this, would you then accept that after the first 26 weeks, a medical panel, say, of three doctors, would say, yes, this is a medically necessary case? candidly, what happened when we first looked at this was, if it's only one doctor and the doctor is an abortion doctor, the doctor always found a medical excuse. >> what we already have is a situation where roe says up until the point of viability, this is a choice that the woman can make, beyond of point of viability, this is a choice that requires medical expert to determine what the potential risks and outcomes are. and doctors actually impose restrictions all the time. we have case after case of doctors saying that this does not meet their own personal test. and that's exactly what the role of the doctor is. >> an important question would be, i would ask this of naral -- why is it that every abortion regulation, restriction, limitation, even the ones most

americans agree with, why would you lobby against that? why would you be opposed to that? >> most abortions are medical decision that the majority of americans vastly agree should be left between a woman and her doctor. the kind of restrictions that have been imposed on the other side are manufactured restrictions to limit and narrow and narrow women's choices till they're forced into desperate situations exactly like what sally is talking about. and where you and i agree is we should push for the kinds of opportunities and economic equality that allow women the broadest range of choices. what we see is the politicians who vote to restrict abortion all the time disproportionately vote against -- in fact, the aca which provided prenatal and maternal care for women and equal pay and the kinds of things you're talking about that i agree with women need to make informed choices. >> i want to pick up on where you're going and where you went

mute. focusing on later-term abortions to paint this extreme picture of what ilyse said, over 90% of abortions are earlier in the pregnancy. but talking about extremism for a second, i heard that you said that women who are raped should be forced to carry their pregnancies to term. i think we have a clip we're going to roll. >> they're going to say, wow, that was a redemptive part of this suffering, that was something that helped to redeem it. but abortion adds more violence to that violent act -- >> are you really telling women that they should be forced by the government to carry their rapists' babies? >> this is the way i would answer that, sally, when a woman is raped -- it's a horrible injustice against her. the rapist should be held to the fullest extent of the law, liable for that, culpable for that. the woman needs healing and the support of her community. but an abortion doesn't unrape a

woman. an abortion just adds more violence on top of that first violence that she endured. and you look at the stories of a woman who was conceived in rape and she said, should i have received the death penalty for the crimes of my father? if your father did something bad in his life, should you receive the penalty for his crime? that's not fair. i think all of this comes down to this question -- what is the life in the womb? is it a human life? is it a life? science says it's a life. >> you are saying specifically -- >> we should recognize the human rights of this whole group of people that we've denied rights for. we're dismembering them, poisoning them, ripping them apart. late-term abortion is horrific. but all abortion is horrific, even in the first trimester. heart is beating at 3 1/2 weeks. >> we're not going to get into that right now. >> why not? it's important to talk about. >> you are saying the rapist should have more rights than the woman -- >> absolutely not. the rapist isn't allowed to kill

that child either. no one's allowed to kill anybody. >> we live in a country where lila rose could decide to carry her rapist's baby to term but her version of morality doesn't dictate what i can choose to do in that moment. that's what religious liberty is about. it's about you getting to choose what would be right for you in that circumstance but i don't get to tell you what to do -- >> but i agree with you until the point where your rights end where another person's rights begin. and there is another life in the womb -- when you conceive, you have a person inside of you. this is a beautiful thing but -- >> that is what you believe. >> science proves it. when you conceive, there is a unique, distinct human being that needs time and nourishment to grow. >> it's getting interesting. if conservatives are really concerned about reducing abortions, i have three

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welcome back. in the "crossfire" tonight, ilyse hogue and lila rose. today, for the 41st year in a row, abortion remains constitutional, a fact that continues to frustrate the right wing. but here's what frustrates me. conservatives always say they want fewer abortions. progressives agree, we can all agree on that. so there's a whole laundry list of things that we know reduce the need for abortions in america. let's start with sex education and contraception. and what about raising the minimum wage? among other things, that would allow women to afford to raise children. so if conservatives really want to reduce the number of abortions in america, why are they opposing these policies that should be at the top of their agenda? >> one of the things i love about liberalism is that -- >> glad there's something. >> whatever is happening, you reach out to one of the -- i'm surprised you didn't throw in

global warming, five or six other things we could work on, all of which would help -- i just love that. that was very nicely done and weird. >> but he didn't argue. so he must think i'm right. >> i'd like to say something. i think it's been fascinating to me and insulting actually to see all of this political discussion about women reduced to birth control and not just any birth control but mostly hormone drugs, synthetic hormones that are pumped in women's bodies. there's the yaz lawsuit, bayer corporation, 10,000 women have said how it's hurt them "vanity fair" exposing the nuvo ring. no one is talking about the risks to women of these drugs. this is the kind of thing that women deserve to know, right up there with the dangers of abortion. instead we're being told, just take this pill, it will reduce your fertility and you can be sexually available, do whatever

and that will solve your problems. i don't think it's a good solution for women. >> i'm with you, sally. i hear from lila and people like lila that their ultimate intent is to actually decrease the number of abortion and yet we're blocking all of the things that we know actually do allow women to make informed choices on the front end and prevent unintended pregnancies. the countries that actually have the most access to comprehensive sex education, contraception, putting the information and knowledge and control in the hands of women actually have the lowest abortion rates. and we also know that 99% of american women at some time in their life use some form of contra epgs is. that's why we're trying to get it better and better all the time. and contraception has changed just like every other pharmaceutical in the country. it's changing for the better. so it is a woman's choice to be able to do that. but people like lila actually

block that because their view is that there is only one way to be a woman in this society and they would like to use legislation to impose that morality on the rest of us. >> i think legislation, the rule of law, is to protect human rights. when we're talking about that aspect, talking about life in the womb, we have to recognize that those are people, too, and they have rights, too. >> lila, how can you -- >> they can't talk to us at this table. but they're victims by the thousands each day. the question about what's empowering to women, we can have that discussion. but it's never empowering to a woman to kill a child. >> one thing we know -- this is where i see the split between people who say i personally believe abortion is immoral. and i would not do it but i don't want to impose that on anyone else. the reason -- one reason for that is because we know and it's proven all over the world that when abortion is illegal, the number of abortions don't go down but the number of women dying go up.

and what you are saying is that women's rights don't matter, women's health doesn't matter, women's mortality doesn't matter, it has no place in this conversation. and i find that to be very far outside of the mainstream of most people's -- >> the founder of your organization said the numbers that a lot of the pro abortion activists at the time of roe came up with back alley abortions were hugely out of the water exaggerated. he even said we lied. he said, we fabricated numbers. we have to address the idea that hundreds of thousands of women always want to have abortions no matter what. it's legal, paid for by the government and we're told by society that this is the solution to our problems. >> study after study shows -- >> ireland, some of the lowest maternal mortality rates in the world, lower than the united states and they have abortion

laws. >> you keep talking about the right to choose. the fact is that the left is so committed to its world view that the obama administration currently is in the middle of a lawsuit with a group that you could hardly -- you couldn't make this up. but just take a picture, the fact is that the little sisters of the poor are currently in a fight with the federal government over eliminating their religious liberty as they define it. so you've been aggressively here saying, we have religious liberty, we have the right to -- these folks who said flatly, requiring them to do what the obama administration wants is a direct violation of their beliefs and they simply want the government to let them alone. >> the little sisters of the poor do amazing work. i think everybody around this table agrees with that. and, in fact, what they need to do is sign a form that --

>> why? >> affirms their opposition to contraception -- >> why? >> let me tell you what happens after that, none of their employees get contraception, they can go back to doing their work. what that's not true for is the tens of thousands of employees of hobby lobby and the dozens of -- >> i want to stay on this case because it is central to the future of the united states. this is a religious organization engaging and helping poor people who are both catholic -- >> absolutely. >> and what they have said clearly is they aren't going to sign this form because their interpretation of it is a violation of their religious beliefs. why does the government have to be totalitarian and say, oh, no, not even a group of nuns can do this, we're going to impose on everyone what we want. and we're going to interpret for you what you're allowed to believe? >> have you seen the form? the form literally says, we are a litigious organization who

oppose contraception -- >> we need to add two important things to this debate. first of all, the fact that the contraceptive mandate is not just about birth control. it's i still haven't heard a response about yaz or nuvo ring or about how it's wrecking women's bodies. women are the ones pumping our bodies with fake progestins. what about that? do you think that's good for women. i'd like to hear an answer to that one. because that's the big promotion. >> i don't think we'll get into a medical debate about various contraceptive options. what is interesting to me, i think you know this, newt, the little sisters case, they have to sign the form. this isn't about trying to unravel the contraceptive mandate. what i don't understand is if we want to prevent abortions, why

is the right simultaneously going after access to contraception. why? you don't have to use them. >> i don't know how the government which is forcing groups like little sisters, like pro lifers, women to pay for drugs that are killing human life, indirectly, directly. >> none of the little sisters -- >> they're damaging to women's bodies. the world health organization -- >> let me ask you a question. so my dad's on blood pressure drugs. it actually has side effects. it also gives him a better quality of life. he's chosen that. he knows the side effects. we know the side effects of birth control. why can't we make that same choice. >> are you suggesting that insurance shouldn't cover blood pressure drugs because it has side effects? >> i'm saying -- >> prevent tifs. >> i'm suggest that go our fertility is not a sickness that we need to medicate and that causes all of these side effects, strokes, deaths.

that's why 10,000 women. i'm on facebook. i'm seeing ads. join the yaz lawsuit to fight against the pharmaceutical company for what they've done to women all over america. why don't we know more about the risks as women? >> i think this is a great point. the world health organization -- >> i don't hear -- >> world health organization around the world, this is important -- >> newt -- >> stay here. next, the final question for both of our guests. we also want you at home to weigh in on today's fire back question. does a candidate's position on abortion impact your vote? tweet yes or no using #crossfire. we'll have the results after the break. your eyes really are unique.

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we're back with elise hoge and violet roads. we're back with the final question. in many ways you seem reasonable. no, answer my question. are there any legal restrictions on abortion in the ninth month, the eighth month? are there any legal restrictions that you can support? >> absolutely. abortion is restricted post roe all the time, but what i do believe is medical -- >> tell us -- >> but i'm not a medical professional. i believe that the law as it exists actually supports the expert's making the determination about when those restrictions need to be put in place. >> would you permit three

doctors on a panel instead of the abortion doctor? >> there's no such thing as just an abortion doctor. doctors perform a variety of services including a full suite of reproductive health. many, many states do require more than one opinion. i think that is absolutely up to the states but that restrictions are imposed all the time by the people that they should be shlgt the medical professionals in consultation with the individual case. >> what about sex selective abortion of girls? would that be prohibited? >> we could to a whole other show on the mythology of that one. lis lila, conservatives say they want smaller government. how do you defend the dramatic expansion of government power to control women's bodies and their choices? >> i think that women's bodies and their choices shouldn't be controlled by the government, but my choices, again, and when another person's choices begin. we have to stop talking about a woman who's pregnant as if she's only a woman who's pregnant and there's no other life inside

her. we have to wake up to the world of science and reason. what biology teaches us is this is an individual, unique life, all the chromosomes. it needs time and nourishment to grow. that's what the truth is out there. i think we need to wake up to that and then we can start building positive policy for everybody. >> i want to thank louisa and lila rose. go to facebook or twitter. does a candidate's position of abortion impact your vote. 66% of you say yes. 34% say no. the debate continues online at cnn.com/crossfire as well as on facebook and twitter. >> from the left i'm sally cohn. >> from the right i'm newt gingrich. join us tomorrow for another edition of "cross fire." erin burnett "out front" starts erin burnett "out front" starts right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

next, the white house backtracks on president obama's comments that marijuana's no worse than alcohol so where does the administration really stand on pot? plus, rob ford admits he suffered a setback after new video shows him in a drunken rant. new video of richard sherman. what he was saying to reporters right before his now famous rant joompt let's go "out front." good evening. i'm don lemon in for erin burnett. tonight the white house takes the high road trying to blunt criticism from president obama's comments that marijuana is no more