bystander, so to speak. >> the fact chief mcmahon said they believe there's no other person involved, that's a pretty strong statement to make. so i don't think it's just sheer speculation. they've got enough investigation that's been conducted by his people to make a determination that that one person or one or more persons that are dead at the scene, that's all they're looking for. that there's no one else involved. no one else at large with a gun that poses any other danger. either in the mall or out in the parking lot or anywhere else. so i think that was a pretty clear statement on his part that the danger is over. that the scene is contained. it's now a crime scene. and i think that that's one of the most exceptional press conferences by a law enforcement executive i've seen in a long time. >> what do you xbleen whmean? what was so prominent to you? >> the fact he put out that much information two hours after the

event happened. it's clear his staff working inside are being very methodical, conducting a very professional operation. the investigation itself. as well as the marshalling all of the other agencies to work for them, that's ongoing. so i think that he has a, has shown great professionalism, personally and his agency, and the howard county sheriff's department. so that was a lot of information to put out, and i think, also, the fact of promising to be back in a little over two hours with more information. a promise to come back with facts that were asked during the questioning period. i think he did a very good job in putting out a lot of information in a hurry. >> in fact, howard county police saying, 4:00, its next briefing there before the cameras outside the mall. if not sooner. so you feel that they've been able to learn naa lot in a shor amount of time.

even the police chief kept saying, just a little over two hours. what is your unknown view, in your mind that they'll be able to track down? >> first of all verifying that the person didn't have other encouragement or other people that were knowledgeable of this before he went and committed the act. but, also, you know, there's a lot of effort going to be done to try determine what was the motive of this? what was the reason this person went into that location? was it strictly a personal matter with another employee? or another friend of his, maybe? was it workplace violence? or as we've seen in so many of these cases, was it just a mentally disturbed person who just randomly went in there with no known motive, no known reason to pick out the victims that were picked out and conduct this horrible jackact? those are questions they hope to

find out the motive. they may never know. this could be another case where we never know why the person went in there and opened fire. >> as yet, according to the police chief, bill mcmahon, moments ago saying they have uncovered no motive. and, again, they continue to try to secure the mall. tom fuentes. thank you so much. i know you're not going to go far, because we may call upon you again very soon. erin mcpike, our cnn correspondent is there outside of the mall. erin, i just want to remind people at home, there is a very lengthy delay in our communication now. so there may about great pause before you hear erin speaking after i have stopped speaking. so, erin what more can you tell us? have you seen a lot more people being escorted out, exiting that mall as they try to secure that mall of 200 stores?

>> well, fred, we have seen people come out in front of the jcpenney, but a lot of the activity has been around the sears area. we also understand that a lot of people were taken to a theater which is on the other side of the mall, and people who came out on that side were going to a bar in the area, but they're removing people from the mall and taking them to other establishments so that they can meet up with family and friends, and, also, brief investigators on what they saw or heard inside the mall. that's what we've seen so far. we haven't seen as many people leave in the last half an hour or so on this side of the mall, but we understand it is having a lot on the other side of the mall, fred. >> and it sounds like you're also describing, people are not allowed to drive their cars out? they have to be shuttled out of there? people have to pick them up outside the mall. so a lot of those cars are going to remain in the parking lot?

>> well, that's right. and there are lots of cars around, just outside the police tape. now, when we first arrived about an hour and a half, two hours ago tlshs were a number of people sitting inside their cars, waiting for others to come out. most of them have been cleared in the last hour or so, but, yes. we will still see cars in the parking lot as people have to go to other establishments and probably will have to come back in the next day or stow get those cars. exactly, fred. >> and the police chief said another brief lg take place about two hours from now. 4:00 eastern time, and i know you all have tried, but, again, are unable to actually talk to any of the folks, the people who exited that mall. correct?

>> we have spoke ton a few, fred, in the last couple of hours. we are speaking to more as they come out, and as we can get to some of them. so in the next hour or so, i'm sure we have more of that for you, fred. >> okay. very good. thank you, erin mcpike. we're going to try to turn that around and get that sound on the air see that folks can hear what many of these people have gone through, what they're reflecting on right now after a very frightening, harrowing day at the mall in columbia, maryland. outside of washington, d.c. not far from baltimore, maryland. folks coming to the mall as they do most weekends. crowding the shopping mall, hoping to have a good time. do shopping. spend some family time and then at about 11:15 eastern time right there at that mall, shots were fired. 911 called.

police descended. quite immediately. and people started scat erg. they looked for secured areas. employees and shoppers alike sharing safe places in closets and storage areas trying to remain calm and safe, not knowing what was going on. in the end, police confirming three dead. among them, one person they believe is the single shooter in this incident. no motive revealed as of yet. the investigation continues. the mall still not secure. police continue to comb through that mall and allow people, shoppers, employees, to exit in very small groups. much more on the situation there at the mall in columbia, maryland, right after this.

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shoppers and employees can't believe what they went through today at the mall in columbia, maryland. shots were fired.

three people were dead, and a lot of folks were cowering in storage rooms and closets, just waiting for a safe moment to come out. among them, employee k.t. who i spoke with earlier. here's what he had to say i. . s >> i was in the back of my store work wig my other co-woshrkeco-. all of a sudden three people run to the back door saying there was a shooting. they run to the back door. there's only one, which is stupid. some going for the exit. a lot of others didn't know where the exit was, going the other way and just hiding out in rooms. when we go out, there were people huddled around the end of the bathroom hallway which is kind of goes out to the food court, and that's where the girl told me, yeah. it was --looked like the guy was

either latino or middle eastern, wearing khaki pants and definitely had a shotgun. either a shotgun or rifle. that's when i took the picture. taken right by "the great cookie" right near the bathrooms where you can see there's obviously one big hole and then a bunch of little pell its around it. so after that i went back into the hallway where deliveries are made, gathered a bunch of people, because, of course, there were women with their children and a lot of people were crying and that. got people out through the exit. showed them where that was and then all of a sudden, one lady, i think was talking to her husband, and she said that he said that the guy -- they they got the guy. that's why we went back inside. had she not said that i would have stayed outside. so i went back inside and just stayed locked in the store with me and some other employees, and we saw the cops just walking

around the store, guns out. that's when we figured, yeah, they must mot have gotten the guy. we were in the store half hour, 45 minutes, and then we saw the s.w.a.t. team, and they said, you know, everyone here, you gotta go and that's when they escorted us out. >> k.t., you were in your store and the pictures we just showed of what appeared to be bullet holes. there we go. we're looking it again. this was near the food court if i heard you correctly. then you said you and others went back to the store. at what point did you make the decision to leave the mall, leave period, and some of you stayed in to i guess, hunker down? >> we originally left, i was trying to help a lot of other people go out. so i was just hanging arranged the back entrance waiting for word. we really didn't hear anything and there were no -- there were no cops in the back of the mall where we were exiting at. there were none back there.

there was nobody to tell us not to go back into the mall. so like i said, when the other lady said she talked to her husband and she heard they got the guy, that's when i said, okay. let me go balancing insiinside, belongings. that's when i thought, wow. they didn't find the guy. that's when we were hanging out there. >> how frightened were you through all this? >> i mean -- i guess as frightened as you can be. i mean, if god's going to take me off the earth, he's going to take me. so can't be too scared. >> this is -- i know this mall, at least as a kid, i frequented that mall. it's certainly a place that i would feel safe at all times, and i imagine, you know, for you, you're working there on a busy saturday. you know, you know what a saturday looks like there. an awful lot of people at this mall. but when you heard the shots fired, did it seem as though -- people knew what to do in terms

of trying to find a safe place, trying to find a place to, you know, cower, to be safe? or did people -- you know, seem to be panicking? give me an idea. >> of course not. you know, it's a mall shooting. nobody knows what's going on. of course, in today's world that we live in, when you hear gunshot, you run. you know? there's nothing else to do. so people were, you know, just started doing different. >> uh-huh. and for those who decide to, you know, find safe place in storage rooms and closets, et cetera, how concerned or frightened were you about whether, you know, police would know that you are trying to save yourself, save others? or whether you were a suspect? >> that was the biggest concern, because, you know, a lot of cops, especially in maryland, they got itchy trigger fingers. they will shoot you, no matter who you are. so that was a big concern, and, you know, this -- i mean, i

guess -- what hurts you is a lot of kids were crying and mothers holding on to them, crying and shaking, and not knowing what's going on. that was the biggest deal, but for me, myself personally, it wasn't really worried about me. you know? i'll be all right in the end. i was making sure everybody else was going to get out there. >> i'm amazed you had the wherewithal to take pictures of the bullet holes in the wall. what were you thinking? >> there was a bunch of us standing there. like i said, when we were back there and everybody was running, you know, everybody still kind of like, well, what's going on? all we hear is gunshots. i mean, just standing there, you know, we didn't hear anything as far as like -- anybody running through the mall or people saying, you know, hide, hide, hide. move, move, move. so when i saw where the gunshots were, that was my first instinct just to kind of take a picture of it. >> uh-huh. all right. k.t., quite the heroic employee

there working at the mall in columbia when that shooting take place. we're going to have much more on the investigation of a crime scene now. three confirmed dead at that mall shooting earlier today. we'll be right back.

because i didn't really need to do any negotiating at all. i just knew from the get-go that i was... flat out getting a good deal. when you're ready to buy a car, save time, save money, and never overpay. visit truecar.com three dead, four injured at a shooting at the shopping mall in columbia, maryland, at the mall at columbia in maryland. you're looking at aerial pictures right now of the parking lots because every now and then you see a steady stream of people being allowed to exit

the mall. those people, employees and patrons who were inside the mall at the shooting that police are saying right now there is not yet completely secured the scene of that mall. there continue to be some people inside, because they found themselves in secure areas. they tried to seek shelter exactly where they were. so police are methodically now going through, interviewing people to make sure that they indeed have no other active shooters on the scene, but police saying very confidentially during the last hour that they believe that this was carried out by the hands of a single shooter, and the single shooter is among the three that are dead. another press briefing will be coming from howard county police at 4:00 eastern time. an hour and a half from now. meantime, our justice correspondent evan perez, crime and justice correspondent evan perez with us now. evan what more have you learned about this now crime scene and investigation? >> well, fred, the early

indications, again, this is preliminary information from the scene, according to officials, that i and the cnn producer have talked to this may well be a domestic situation, a domestic dispute, that, again, that's the early information from investigators on the scene. and, you know, they're still doing some investigation. there's still a lot more that they need to find out before they can finally determine what exactly happened. but just the nature of the scene leads them to believe it might have been a domestic dispute. the shooter entered apparently and shot a man and a woman before killing himself at the scene there. >> okay. and so evan, we've heard lots of eyewitness accounts from employees and shoppers who we've been able to talk with on the phone. many of them saying, you know it started like a lot of shootings in public places, unfortunately. they just heard the sound of gunfire. they didn't necessarily hear screaming or shouting

beforehand. heard the shots being fired and their instinct said to find a safe place. the police chief commended many of those people for doing just that. taking shelter in place. is that where we are in this day and age? that people simply know instinctively what to do when in public places? >> yeah. it's an amazing thing that's happened, the state of these things that we've had in the last year or two, but it is -- i mean, i'm sure, if you're in the mall and you hear gunfire, i'm sure that no motter what the motive is, no matter what the situation is, you don't wait to find out, and you certainly -- it's equally scaryscary whether domestic or something out. you don't want to find out. it's instinct to try to save yourself. at this point it looks like the police have secured the scene. they believe it's going to take probably still a couple hours before they can get everybody out and make sure that everything is locked down, but,

you know, they're not -- they're pretty confident, as you said, during that last press conference, they indicated they believe everything is security secure. they don't expect anything else to happen, fred. >> all right. evan perez, thank you so much, as you get more information, please, let us know. thank you so much. so, again, the shooting taking place on a busy shopping day. right there at the mall in columbia, maryland. this is right in the smack of howard county, between baltimore, washington, and washington, d.c., and certainly it is an area that people always considered very safe. a mall that folks felt very secure and certainly nobody would expect something like this from happening. john matthews is with us now. he's the author of "mass shooting: six steps to survival" a former police chief. john, when people go to the shopping mall the last thing they're thinking is something like this happening.

we heard from the police chief people knew exactly what to do. sheltered in place, went inside closets and storage rooms inside the stores. store managers pulled the gates separating their stores from the rest of the mall, but it seems as though we all have to be educated what to do when bad things happen in public places. what impressed you most about how things unfolded? the response to how things unfolded today? >> well, the majority of folks it seemed did take the right tactics, unfortunately because of all of these events. there's been a lot of press coverage and we've had a lot of media out there telling people that you can't hesitate. as soon as you hear gunfire, you've got to exit the area. you've got to get out of that shooter's line of sight and you can't sit and think, oh, i wonder what that was? you've got to be prepared. i heard many of your witnesses say we won't into a locked storeroom or secured ourselves in a bathroom or hallway. that's exactly what you need to

do, but it was kind of disturbing to hear some witnesses say that they went outside. they exited the building and were safe, and then returned back inside. it's almost -- >> that's remarkable to me. >> that's almost like going back into the fire. >> some employee says they left and the then came because because certain responsibility is expected of them as an employee. still, what is your recommendation? if you're already in a safe place, now out of the mall, it doesn't seem you would recommend to anybody to go back in where there is potential danger? >> no. you'd never go back into the line of fire, and in many of these mass shootings, the shooters stop shooting periodically. they stop shooting to reload. sometimes, many times, they've gone out into the parking lot to get weapons, to change weapons. get more ammo. and they'll come back and start shooting again. so, no. the number one thing we recommend is that you exit the area. you do it quickly and safely. and you stay away. you stay far away, as far as you can. this is one case where curiosity

may get you killed. so you want to stay away from the building, and not go back inside. there's no store, there's no employee, that's going to tell you, hey, you've got to do this and put yourself in harm's way. the number one thing we want people to know is, they've got to be safer and react quickly in these situations. now, i did hear several people say, we locked ourselves in a storeroom. or we locked ourselves in the bathroom. that's exactly what we want to you do. we want you to seek cover away from potential bullets, away from potential gunfire and we want you to stay there until the police come and get you. don't -- don't open the door. don't get out to see if everything's okay. you stay there, because an officer with an i.d., with a badge, with a uniform, will come get you and say, hey, it's over. >> right, but john, here's the other crossroad and we heard it, you know from one of the employees. sometimes you just don't know. you know, if that officer comes

and if they're not in uniform, and they open the door, in the case of, you know, this employee and some other people, they weren't even sure if this was an officer. they weren't sure whether to trust the one manager apparently had the instinct to say i want to see a badge, but sometimes you just don't have that opportunity ask those kinds of questions. so you're fearful. you're afraid to trust anyone. >> oh, and you shouldn't. you should stay locked, stay secured. that officer is going to have either his badge or his i.d. card and if he doesn't have it for some reason, say he was off-duty and came in to help, he's going to grab another officer to let you know, look, it's us. we're the police. you're okay. and we're going to get you out. i think people need to know in these situations, like this huge shopping mall, we still have people being evacuated two hours later. >> right. >> it takes the police a very long time. we have to secure every room, every passageway, every

storeroom, and people need to know that when they go to get locked down it may not be for six or seven minutes. it may be for two, three or four hours but you've got to wait. you can't take that chance and get hurt that is the case. police say they are not ready to say that they -- they're ready to lift the lockdown. they have not secured the mall. they continue to check every crevice to see if there are people who continue to be in those safe places and then, of course, question many of the other folks they see in plain sight. thank you so much. john matthews, appreciate that and your advice. no one wants to think there could be a next time, but it is good to hear that kind of information, because unfortunately, in this day and age, we are seeing too many situations just like this. people in places that they think they should be safe, and then they are confronted with danger. much more from the "newsroom" right after this.

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