this is "piers morgan live." welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world. tonight you can't say that on tv or can you? two debates, first what i thought was a perfectly cordial interview last night with janet mock. she tells her life story. i became the target of very angry tweets. she's back on tonight live to debate what happened. jerry seinfeld about diversity in comedy. >> people think it's the census or something? this has got to represent the actual pie chart of america?

who cares? >> we'll get to the seinfeld story in a moment. but i want to begin with janet mock. she wrote about her life as a transgender woman in the book "redefining realness, my path to womanhood, identity, love and so much more." janet rejoins me now. i brought you back on the show. cards on the table. i have spent an infuriating 24 hours. and i want you to explain why i've had to go through this. because let me start from this premise. i have always been 100% supportive of all gay rights, gay marriage rights, transgender rights. in fact, i want equality for everyone. in america and around the world. that's always been my position. anyone that watches this show knows that's exactly what i've always stood for. i had you on the show. you wrote a powerful book. i did nothing but laud your courage. i said you were a fantastic person to be out there center stage, selling the message that there's no need to stigmatize transgender people.

i called you a woman throughout the interview. i never disputed the fact that you're a woman. and yet today i have spent literally 12 hours being viciously abused by the transgender community, egged on by your own tweeting last night that you were somehow very dismayed by the way the interview had gone. now, i was surprised. because you never said anything during the interview to indicate you were remotely dismayed. at the end of the interview you were very cordial. we shook hands. you thanked me for the interview and off you went the the interview was done five days ago. i ask you to explain to me why you didn't say anything during the interview. why you seemed quite happy about it afterwards, why you felt the need to tweet quite hostile tweets in my direction, which sparked this fury among the transgender community. because i feel pretty peeved about it. >> well, i'm sorry that you feel offended. i think fa that people in the transcommunity feel equally as offended. i think one of the number one

things with trans, women specifically, is that so much of our lives are open to dissection and illegitimacy and investigation, and we're constantly questioned, ever since we were very young that who we are is incorrect, wrong, and should be kept seek secret. and i think that being someone that is very visible and in a stigmatized community, i am a transwoman of color. i'm a young woman. and these are issues that i think we need to give transpeople space to tell their own stories. we should follow the lead of people who are out there and being visible and advocating for these rights. >> that's exactly why i had you on the show, why i promoted your book. why i told everybody to go read the damn thing. so i ask you again, why have i been vilified for being transparently supportive of you? i don't get it. >> maybe you don't get it because you're not a transwoman. transwomen are -- >> explain to me what i did wrong. what did i do wrong? >> so before commercial break,

we had a lovely conversation and then all of a sudden you said, who was formerly a man. i was a baby. i was assigned male gender because of the appearance of my genitals. as i grew up, i discovered my girlhood. i discovered my womanhood. and i proclaimed and defined myself as audrey lord says. >> why didn't you correct me at the time? >> i did not because i was scared. >> if you feel that strongly. >> i did not because i was scared. >> scared of what? >> i wanted to be a cordial guest. i think that was incorrect of me. i wanted to be kind and appreciative of having two segments on a mainstream show. it was my first major appearance as a young transwoman who wrote her first book. >> i thought you were terrific by the way. [ overlapping speakers ] >> i love you told me i looked like beyonce', you said all these amazing things. but i think that also being offensive and being kind are not mutually exclusive things. i think that we can completely have great intentions and be good people but also be ignorant and have a lack of understanding

about these issues. a lot of these things especially for transwomen are about understanding. it's about understanding and the intention is great, but we also need action. >> let me cut to the quick about why perhaps confusion has arisen not just in my mind but in many people's minds. you are famous in america now. predominantly from a piece you wrote for the marie claire magazine in 2011. >> i actually did not write that piece. >> well, it's in your words, it's a first person piece by you. >> i didn't choose the title just like i did not choose the title on the title cards underneath my name in the segment or the tweets that went out from the show. >> okay. i don't want this to be a hostile encounter. >> i don't, either. >> i still actually greatly admire you. i just want to make that clear. >> i appreciate that. >> however, this is the piece i got in front of me, the piece that made you famous. the headline is "i was born a boy." right? now, maybe you didn't write the headline. so i read the piece. you talk about going through gender reassignment surgery, a sex change.

"though i had been born a boy to my native hawaiian mother, the first page, the next day there were only dogs okay for me, a boy, to play with. and then another reference here on the last page something about my path -- conversation with aaron who's your boyfriend. i calmly said "i was born a boy." so i can kind of give you that you weren't writing the headlines, but do you really expect me to believe in a piece that you personally signed off on, in which you were made famous in which you repeatedly call yourself a boy? >> i did not write that piece, piers. i also wrote a followup piece essay critiquing that just like i critiqued this episode. >> i read that. >> in the book in the introduction of my book i talk about how that piece was so problematic. it's problematic we don't let transwomen say who they are. we need to follow transwomen and let them say who they are and believe them when they say that. that's what this is about, this is not about twitter. that's why i was not engaging today in the debate. i continue to move forward and try to continue to make this a

positive experience. i want this to be a learning experience. i want allies like you and supporters like you to continue to support us and to continue to give us space on your show. >> right. >> i don't want other people to be afraid. these are touchy issues. they've been around since the 1950s. >> let me say something. i do support you. i couldn't have made that any more crystal clear yesterday. i continue to support you. i've always been supportive of all gay rights, gay marriage rights, equality. >> gay rights are not transgender rights. >> i just came to try -- i was about to say transgender. i was halfway through the words. >> it has nothing to do with gay rights. gay rights and transrights are not the same thing. >> i didn't say they were. i didn't say they were. i'm simply saying i believe it equality for all, whether you're gay, transgender, whatever. i don't care. i've always been completely supportive. >> i think that's great. >> when i read a piece in marie claire, a prestigious magazine, you spent a lot of time posing for pictures with the journalist, a lot of time in her presence.

she also appears after all this time she spent with you, to be laboring under the massive misapprehension that you have repeatedly referred to yourself as having been a boy, who then went through againeder reassignment surgery and became a woman. now, that is perhaps where the confusion lay. because that's the original piece that sparked all the attention about it -- >> that piece should not have been the basis of our interview, piers. i wrote the record of my life. i wrote it. i took me three years to write that. it took me years to be the first person in my family to go to college, to be able to have access to those resources and to write this book and to live my life. and my entire life i've been told that who i am is wrong and should be kept silent. and so for me, that marie claire piece is not the basis of my life. my life is in "redefining realness" this book that is a gift. not for me. it's a gift to young girls like me growing up so that they can know that who they are is real and legitimate and that they're valuable and worthy. >> janet, i don't dispute -- we have a moment there of absolute agreement.

i don't dispute anything that you've just said. i simply ask that if i'm being vilified for repeating something from the very start of your media profile if you like has been -- >> which i critiqued in the opening of my book. >> you've made that very clear. >> ten pages in i critiqued that page. >> here is my point. explain to me. let me learn something here. explain to me why it is so offensive for somebody like you who grew up a boy until you were into your teenage years and your family treated you as a boy and you were biologically a boy that you then have gender reassignment surgery and you become a woman and you've always felt you're a woman. as i said right off the top last night, you have always felt inside that you were a female. and i did not dispute that at all. and i don't dispute it to you now. i have absolute respect for you believing that has always been your gender. but i also believe that the phrase "gender reassignment" means that you had a sex change operation. it means that you go from male

to female or female to male. that is the legal definition of reassignment. >> i think that gender is a lot more complex. >> let me ask you the question. the question is, here's where i want to learn. because i don't want this to be an ongoing issue that i have with the community in which you are such a great spokesman and advocate. i want to learn why it is so offensive to actually just say that you grew up as a boy and you then -- because you've always felt that you were female you had surgery to become a woman, to become a real woman as you say in the book. why is it offensive? >> i think that we need to have a discussion about what gender is. and gender expectations in our culture. i think that we are born and we are assigned a sex at birth. that is a matter none of us have control over. but we do have control over our destinies and identities. we should be respected. it's not about the past. it's not about what surgeries i

may or may not have had, it's not how i disclose my gender to people. it's about who i am right now. i'm janet mock, author of "redefining realness" a fierce transadvocate. and i had continue to be exactly that. that's what i was on this show to do. if i spoke out every single time that someone said called me out of my name or labelled me as something that i'm not i would not have time to advocate for the fierce and urgent issues in my community. issues of poverty and joblessness, of a lack of health care, of violence, verbal and physical violence against transwomen. >> how does it help you, janet, that somebody like me who has been such an open supporter of the community that you represent so well and so publicly, that you target me for what you knew would be a load of abuse that then followed? you did. the tweets last night ignited a firestorm of abuse and vilification my way. you said i had sensationalized your story. i was not formerly a man or a boy.

another tweet you said. >> i sent three tweets. >> but janet, they were important tweets to me. and important tweets to -- >> i did not tweet them at the framework of your show and how they were packaging this story that we did. our exchange was completely fine. but when you package something with the headline "until 18 was a boy" and also say "formerly a man" when in talk about my beloved, the love of my life and our interaction together, that is false advertising. and that is infotainment. because i understand someone -- >> what is false about -- >> people who worked at people magazine, i understand that sensationalizing our stories entices people to look in. but i hope what you get out of it is a learning and teaching moment for all of us. >> janet, with the greatest of respect, and i mean with the greatest of respect, you've written a book "redefining realness, my path to womanhood." my path to womanhood -- my path to woman, identity, love and so much more."

i've got the marie claire article that started your whole media profile. "i was born a boy" repeatedly in your words saying -- >> i did not write that piece. i'm a writer. words are precious. >> let me ask you a simple question. >> i would like to ask you a question. >> okay. can i ask mine first and you can ask yours? >> okay. >> my question is simply this, do you dispute that you were born a boy? >> do i dispute that i was born a boy? i was born a baby who was assigned male at birth. i did not identify or live my life as a boy. as soon as i had enough agency in my life to grow up i became who i am. and this did not start at 18 when i went to thailand to have surgery. it started when i was six years old. and my parents saw me for who i was and allowed me to live my life. that's a lot of nuance. and it's hard to communicate that in 30 seconds or even in a 140 character tweet. that's why i'm here right now. i want this to be a learning and teaching moment for all of us. there's a lot of of misunderstanding. just as you were villefied as you say from my supporters,

that's my community who are villefied every single day and misunderstood and driven into isolation and told who they are is incorrect and wrong and should be under investigation. my question to you will you please use your platform to continue to tell our stories? and to let us -- >> yes. as i always have done. >> yes. and i would love to have coffee with you and sit down and have a real conversation off air. and really evolve and have -- >> i'm sure we will do that. and i would be happy to do that. but let me jump in, i never said that you were wrong or anyone who's been through a transgender process was wrong or somehow in the wrong place or wrong body. i have never used that kind of terminology. i would see that as being offensive. i don't see that as being wrong that you were born a boy and felt you were woman and are now a woman i don't feel any of that is wrong. and i don't think the terminology is offensive. and i think my complaint about what you did with those tweets, you never raised any of this during the interview where i

repeatedly referred to you as having been male before. you never picked me up on it or showed any sign of irritation. i think i just felt that you threw me to the wolves. by the way, i don't mind. i'm a big boy. i can take it. i can take being vilified by anybody. i don't mind being vilified. i get it every day from people who support the lack of gun control in america, right? however, however, i do think it was a little unfair that you sparked off this firestorm of abuse to me, when i am a supporter of your community and always have been. and i think it doesn't do you or your community any good service to try and make people like me the enemy and the target of abuse. and you've read the tweets. you know what i'm talking about. when actually i'm on your side. >> actually i did not read the tweets. i could not read any of the tweets. my life today and the lives of transpeople continue to be more and more miseducated and misinformed with tweets.

i think it's bigger than twitter and bigger than this book. this is a conversation i think my country is going through a lot in terms of our culture on transissues and how then do we report on these lives without sensationizing, without enticing, without warning and throwing definitions and labels on people who have the capacity and the know how and the experience to claim their lives. and i think our exchange was good. you compared me to beyonce' and i live for her. but it was also bad in the sense that it further showed other people in my community that if janet mock can be misgendered, if she can be labelled something that she is not, then what does that mean for me? and i'm only out here doing this work for these girls that grew up like i did. i wanted to give them a story that reflects them, a story that is sensitive and full of nuance and love. >> okay. janet, i get it. my advice to you in return would be -- >> i don't needed an advice but i will take it. >> you've just given me advice i perhaps also don't feel i need. i've taken it in good grace to let me give you some advice. next time you're doing a big

high profile television interviewer and you feel the interviewer is mischaracterizing your identity or gender, my advice and i say this in a nice friendly respectful way is say something. don't pretend it's all gone very well and shake his hand afterwards and thank him, and then go off five days later and ignite a social media firestorm of abuse in his direction. that isn't fair either. so i don't try and equate my struggle in life with yours. the i've had it pretty easy by comparison. your book remains a great, inspiring book. i remain a great supporter of the transgender community. i hope we can both move on from this. i appreciate you coming back on the show tonight. thank you. >> thank you. when we come back, jerry seinfeld. is he a victim of political correctness run amuck? this is what he said to buzz feed. >> i have no interest in gender or race or anything like that. but everyone else is kind of with their little calculating, is this time exact right mix?

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was. so i asked two of the folks that came with her to the interview. and i said, basically the contention is that janet never wants to be referred to as ever having been a boy because from her point of view, she was always a girl. and the answer was, correct. but it seemed like it was really more of a semantic issue here. because the one and only reason why she's on this show, has written a book, is getting national attention was because she was born with male genitalia, went through surgery and is now female. and that's frankly a pretty sensational thing to go through in life. >> mark lamont hill you tweeted glad to see my sister janet mock holding it down, salute. this is an important moment for tv. i agree with that, it is an important thing to debate on television. but i still feel pretty aggrieved that i went from being a loud and vocal supporter of the transgender community to the greatest villain in the history of the transgender community within 24 hours. i don't really understand why.

>> i totally get your frustration, piers. but i think this is one of the challenges of being an ally. and i think it can be frustrating for communities when allies of that community when they're questioned or challenged or critiqued say don't critique me. i'm your best friend. i'm an ally. it's like when white men talk about the number of black friends they have. or men talk about the binders full of women they've hired. it's really important for to us take critique and think about it. i agree with you. i wish janet in the interview had questioned you and challenged you on your use of language and boy and manhood. i think you were wrong to do it. i think she should have challenged you on it. but i understand her point of being scared. this is a national interview on a major show on a major network. i could see how she was intimidated and upon watching it later had a different response. for me, piers, the bigger issue isn't the use of language. the fact that so much of the interview centered around the sensational aspects genitalia and other factors i wanted you to contribute. >> now mark, let me come back on you like that. i never mentioned her genitalia

at all ever. in either interview. >> well, when you say. you alluded to it when you talk about -- you talk about saying a boy until 18, it implies that her womanhood -- >> she had surgery. >> she was a boy. she was a boy. >> but that's not. >> ben ferguson -- >> piers. transidentity does not hinge upon surgery. you can have a penis and still be a woman. a transwoman. >> okay. let's deal with -- >> ben ferguson. >> yeah. all right. let's deal with facts here. she was a boy and she was a man when she was born. now, she can be in the head and say she refuses to accept that. but based on medicine and based on doctors, you come out and you're a man or you're a woman if you want to change that that's your decision. but let's really get to this tonight, piers. >> that's not a fact. just because you say it's a fact doesn't make it true.

>> you can disagree with it. but doctors and science agree with me on this one. now let me get to the real core here. >> no, actually doctors and scientists -- >> let me finish. let me finish. let me finish. >> you're confusing sex and gender. you should really read a book on this. >> mark, let me finish. this boils down to a simple issue. this is fake outrage by a woman who needs to sell books, who didn't have the guts to say anything to piers because there was not a bad interview. you were incredibly gracious, piers. and i don't give you a lot of credit on this one. i'll give you full credit. she decided i'm sure with her p.r. team that's watching right now and welcome to this world of selling books, we aren't selling enough. we need a fake controversy. let's attack piers morgan, drop a fake f word in there, even though we had no problem with it five days ago to sell more books. that's all this is about. >> hold on, ben. i wouldn't go that far. >> ben, you're making things up. none of that is true. >> i wouldn't go that far to use her motives in what she was tweeting.

what i would point out is that there are lots of beautiful black women in the world, lots in this building at this very moment, and they are not sitting in a one on one interview with piers morgan during primetime on cnn. she was here to discuss the fact that she was born one gender or one sex, as mark would like to say, went through surgery, went through a psychological process, but also a physical process to become a female. >> right, but amy -- >> and we can debate whether or not that is superficial or whether or into the that is -- >> that's not the only issue. [ overlapping speakers ] >> let me -- wait wait wait. let me just say this. i think the point mark is making which is a point that janet made is this. there's a difference between sex and gender. that gender identity's incredibly important to people who go through the transgender process. >> yes. >> i have learned more about that in the last 24 hours. and i think it's important to know about that. because it matters to the people that go through that.

so look, let's move on. we're going to come back after the break with a couple of much quieter, gentler issues. woody allen and jerry seinfeld and this race storm. that should spark even more fury from my panel. bulldog: what's this?

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but everyone else is kind of with their little calculating is this time exact right mix? i think that's -- to me it's anti-comedy. >> jerry seinfeld taking heat from some people from what he said there to buzz feed. back with me now is amy holmes, marc lamont-hill. so mark lamont hill, what do you make of what jerry seinfeld said? i couldn't help myself by agreeing with him. >> piers you're 0 for 2 tonight. you're usually on the money, man. seinfeld is relying on a corrupted assumption. that's the same assumption that informs people who are anti-affirmative action. that is that the people who are being put in to promote diversity are somehow less qualified or less talented. the argument for people who want to diversify "saturday night live" or comedy troupes not they want to put some unfunny black people on. it's that there are funny people of all races that get excluded

from the mix. the idea is to have a mix of talented people, that's where seinfeld is wrong. >> but isn't he also making the point -- this is the point i agree with, that in the end humor is humor is humor. and if you sit down with your american pie chart of cultural diversity in the country and divide up your humor quota for the show in a very specific scientific p.c.-pleasing way, i got his point in the end you're drifting away from what humor should be, which is just spontaneous funny stuff. doesn't really matter, does it? the color of people involved? >> piers humor is humor is not humor. i think the larger point here while funny is funny, it's also know your audience. seinfeld pointed out to his audience which frankly reflected what he's coming from. i think what place in the borsh belt doesn't play in oakland or the cat catskills to seattle. it can come from a cultural perspective or ethnic perspective you won't have a rainbow coalition of comics.

>> hold on. go on, ben. get in. >> no, i would say this. as marc lamont hill's token white friend, not everything has to come down to race. and i mean, let's be honest about this. i would love to be a nfl football player or a nba basketball player, but i don't think we need a quota for white guys that can't jump. the same way he's saying if you're funny i don't care what you look like. if you make me laugh i'll sit down with you and interview. and i'm not thinking about okay, well, last tuesday we had a white guy so we need a hispanic guy. the next week we need a black guy. >> what makes jerry seinfeld laugh can be very specific to jerry seinfeld and where he's coming from in his cultural millieu. >> neither of you would say that jerry seinfeld is racist, right?

he's not being racist. he's just saying he doesn't want to have sort of a compelling pressure of you must be diverse in this manner to dictate how he produces humor. that's what he said. >> i haven't seen any evidence that would suggest he's racist. there was that other cast member who had a very unfortunate stand up routine. >> exactly. standing next to cramer he's like martin luther king. >> as i say the larger point is know your audience. you might be speaking to narrow audience or a broad audience. there will be ethic and cultural implications. >> i want to move on. enough time on that. let's move on to this. move on to the woody allen, mia farrow dylan farrow saga very poisonous on all sides. pretty depressing to see the family split like this and all the fallout that's going to happen. we saw today that moses who is dylan farrow's older brother has

come out on the side of woody allen. that has caused great upset to dylan that says he's now dead to her, her own brother and so on. what do you make of this, ben ferguson? >> well, i think there's two things. one, i hate it when i see someone act as if a grown woman who's claiming abuse is somehow still in a child's mind and still being held like a little child under a mother's influence. and that was the part that irked me the most. this is a grown woman. and i don't think that she is a child. i don't think she's being influenced by a mom like she's four years old. the second issue is this. there was an investigation and there were people that thought something inappropriate happened, they just didn't have enough evidence to prove it. and the last thing is, he did marry a stepchild, so there was an awkward, inappropriate relationship that he's currently in right now that started out a weird world, anyway. >> okay. we've got a very quick response from mark and annie. marc, you go first. >> for the first time in life i agree with everything ben said. what i find more devastating is

that the world still responds to woody allen as a cultural hero when there are a lot of other folks who have had sketchy pasts, r. kellys of the world who have been marginalized. i think it's sad we still hail him. >> annie, last word to you. >> i agree with what ben has to say in terms of walking through the allegations and woody allen's own behavior. but i am very uncomfortable about litigating this in public, litigating this over twitter. at this point, take woody allen as you will. whether or not you want to see his movies or not. but i don't think we're ever going to get to the truth of the matter. as i say it makes me very uncomfortable that the public is being sort of drawn into this. >> we'll leave it there. it's been a night of history on this show. i have disagreed with marc lamont hill with just about everything he's said, and marc has agreed with ben ferguson. dramatic development in the history of "piers morgan live." when we come back, rudy giuliani we want to hear what he thinks about terror threats in

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u.s. government says tonight that bombs could be hidden in toothpaste tubes on planes headed to the olympics. i want to know what rudy giuliani thinks of all this. he was of course mayor of new york for the very turbulent times of 9/11. knows all too well what it means to keep people safe. glad to have you back. >> nice to be with you.

>> pretty serious warning tonight about the threat from toothpaste, cosmetic tubes generally on flights to russia during the sochi games. what do you make of the threat that was revealed? >> well, i think it's part of the general feeling about this olympics, that the russians have probably done a good job of protecting the inside of the olympics within the olympic compound. but that russia is such a big place, the tensions are so tremendous that it's going to be really hard to contain a threat outside of that compound. so i don't know how specific this threat is. it doesn't sound like it's terribly specific to any one particular place. but this would be a cause of concern. obviously if you're going to go, you better be careful and you probably should have a pretty good reason to go. because there's a little more risk here than would normally be the case. >> john kerry told jake tapper today that he would happily go to the olympic games and thinks others should, too. and trust the russians to keep it safe.

but others like peter king told cnn the complete opposite, he wouldn't go. he said if i were an athlete it's one thing. i don't think it's worth the risk. odds are nothing is going to happen there, but the odds are higher than for any other olympics that something could happen. certainly all the polls suggest many americans fear something could happen. would you go? would you feel comfortable going there now as a visitor? >> first of all, i think pete is right. i think that's probably the right way to analyze it. this is something that has more risk than normal olympics. it's right next to one of the hot spots in the world. the fact is russia has tremendous security. but these people have foiled their security before. they've carried out bombings in moscow, other parts of russia. so they have defeated russian security in the past. and we have now -- we now have a threat of what could happen to airplanes. i think pete is probably right. you should exercise caution in going. and if you are going to go, you darn well should stay inside that perimeter. because that's probably where you're going to be the safest.

>> right. let's segue to something different. identity theft and credit card fraud. target and neiman marcus executives were on capitol hill today about the massive data breach that affected their shop as 40 million credit and debit records stolen. target said they're going to invest 100 million to upgrade the system and so on. this is clearly going to be an ongoing and ever more prevalent issue, isn't it? >> yes. >> for major companies, the issue of online fraud. >> i don't think people realize how crime has changed over the years. identity theft went up by something like 500,000 last year. it's the fastest-growing form of crime. it's the most prevalent form of crime. it outnumbers burglaries now like 20 to 1. people used to be afraid of burglary. the reality is that identity theft is the thing that could really harm you.

and the major risk is not credit card theft. people think of their credit cards. but it's identity theft meaning getting your social security number, getting into social security accounts, getting into bank accounts, getting into medical records. these are all things that are happening. there's even an aspect to this olympics in russia where this has come up where they're warning people that the russians do a lot more cyber invasion than is normally the case. and if you're going to go there, don't take your regular cell phone. go buy a cell phone. use it only for that purpose. and then get rid of it when you come home. which is a pretty extraordinary thing to be warning people of. but i should tell you that i do a lot of work for life lock. and there are a lot of ways to protect yourself, that being one of them. but people should really consider getting protection for themselves. this is going to get worse and worse before it gets better. as well as cyber crime, like we're looking at in different parts of the world. >> right. and in fact, journalists were reporting from sochi tonight that they were hacked almost the moment they got there. which shows you just how easy it

is if criminally minded people want to get their hands on your stuff. >> just think of how extraordinary that is that you're being told you better go get a special cell phone and then get rid of it when you come back. pretty extraordinary. >> yeah. it is. but it shows the level of the crime. just before i let you go, i want to talk to you about philip seymour hoffman. broadway is dimming the lights for him as you would expect for such a great actor. but this whole issue of heroin now, you tackled drugs pretty head on when you were mayor. do you think the heroin problem in particular is becoming a more difficult issue than it was when you were mayor? they're saying heroin use is on the rise. >> i go back dealing with drug, drug rehabilitation to the 1970s when i was head of the narcotics division in the u.s. attorney's office when i was like 26 years old. i really know this issue really really well. heroin has become much more potent, much more dangerous, much more powerful than it used to be. the reality is it has always been a devastating addiction. and this is a great talent that we've lost. this is one of the greatest

actors of our generation. and if he couldn't get the help that's necessary to kind of work his way through this, with all the things that are available, methadone, all these really good rehabilitation programs, i know people that were heroin addicts in the 1970s that have led perfectly responsible lives. so you can deal with this and you can get over it. and it's a tragedy that this has happened. but all this talk about loosening up on drugs, i don't know. i think maybe we'd better rethink that. this is really really dangerous stuff. if we're in an era in which we're trying to convince people not to smoke cigarettes, don't know if we should be encouraging them to kind of this libertarian fashion just to be using any drugs that they want. >> rudy giuliani, always good to talk to you. thank you very much for coming on the show. >> thank you. tomorrow morning on new day the man who found philip seymour hoffman's body his friend david barr katz, close friend and colleague remembers him. that's tomorrow morning

beginning at 6:00 a.m. coming up next, switching political parties is one thing, writing a tell-all book about where your party went wrong and naming names is another. charlie crist is with me in the chair. this is the first power plant in the country to combine solar and natural gas at the same location. during the day, we generate as much electricity as we can using solar. at night and when it's cloudy, we use more natural gas. this ensures we can produce clean electricity whenever our customers need it. ♪

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introducing cardioviva: the first probiotic to help maintain healthy cholesterol levels without a prescription. cardioviva. that's the reason i'm here tonight. not as a republican, not as a democrat, simply as an american who understands that we must come together behind the one man who can lead the way forward in these challenge, times. my president, your president, barack obama. >> republican turned democrat charlie crist in 2012. he was a rising star in the gop, his new book is "the party is over, how the extreme right hijacked the gop." welcome to you, charlie crist.

it's never easy to cross the divide between two parties. obviously you gave it a lot of thought. obviously it takes a lot of guts to do it. has the reality been better or worse than you feared or expected? >> it's been much better than i ever imagined it could be. both carol and i have both changed to the democratic party. she did it a year before me. the welcoming we have received from democrats all across florida has been remarkable. and we're very grateful for it. one of the first calls i got as a matter of fact when i switched and became a democrat was from former governor bob graham of florida, wonderful man, just a revered figure in our state, and the notion that he would take the time to get on the phone and call and say welcome to my party meant a great deal to me and meant a great deal to carol. so it's been wonderful, it really has. >> one of the main reasons that

you did this was you felt that there was an extremist element to the gop that was beginning to rip the guts out of the party. tell me about that. >> no question about it. i think i'll quote jeb bush. he said it better than i ever could. today's republican party, at least the leadership, is perceived as being anti-women, anti-minority, anti-education, anti-immigrant, anti-gay couch els, anti-environment. pretty soon there's nobody left in the room. i really felt that, when i was going to go see the president, president obama came down to ft. myers, florida, in february of '09. the reason was to talk about the stimulus, the recovery act, if you will. and his office called and said would i come down and greet him when he came to ft. myers, florida, at the convention center. i said sure, i would be happy to. even some of the people on my staff said governor, are you sure you want to go down?

i said why would you say that? they said, he's a democrat. i said wait a minute, this man is the president of the united states of america and he's coming here to help us. i have to balance the budget as governor. it was a difficult time. people will remember it was the throes of the great recession. people were freaking out and frightened. so at the time i thought it was important to be with him, show bipartisan support. it was going to save tens of thousands of jobs in florida for teachers, firefighters and law enforcement officers. so i was happy to be there, and it was a privilege and honor to do so. i'm still grateful to him. >> in the book, it's a little fascinating. you call karl rove a jerk after he berated you on a phone call for not appearing with president bush in 2006. do you want to elaborate on his jerkiness? >> sure. what happened is president bush, the younger bush was going to come to florida the evening before the election for governor in 2006 when i ran the first time.

i had already, about two weeks before that, made a commitment to be with senate ever john mccain in jacksonville. president bush was coming to pensacola. so i called governor bush, my friend, the president's brother obviously and i said jeb, i got word your brother is coming to pensacola. i already have a commitment to go with senator mccain? is there any way you can check into this? he said, are the tickets printed? i go into more detail in the book. but the long and short of it was, i ended up honoring my original commitment with senator mccain in jacksonville. the next morning i get a call from karl rove. he's screaming at the top of his voice, saying you chicken you know what. you were going to win any way, just went on and on and on. it was unbelievable. i was unhinged, just unhinged. i felt sorry for him to be honest with you. god speed.

>> i think we all feel sorry for karl rove. it's good to talk to you. it's a terrific book and also quite timely because you're trying to get your job back in florida as governor. the election is in november. the most recent poll has you beating the incumbent by eight points. good luck with that. >> charliecrist.com. thank you very much, piers. >> we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] she won't remember this, being carried in your arms...

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tomorrow night, a new you from a man who can make good on that promise. deepak chopra is here tomorrow. anderson cooper starts right now. good evening. we begin tonight with breaking news about the latest potential threat to the winter olympic games involving explosives in toothpaste tubes. the concerns are linked to the start of competition a few hours again. the usual qualifiers apply about evaluating the threat's credibility and so on, but it's clear, official washington is not taking this lightly. >> this is the type of threat, though, that we're very concerned about. americans should take it very seriously. the airlines should take it seriously. obviously the people at the olympics should take it seriously. >> that was congressman peter king just a short time ago. nick payton walsh is