but that plan would also lift about a million people out of poverty. so what's stopping us from doing this? the republicans. they never like the minimum wage in the first place. and now they are happy they can hide behind this report that came out this week. the report said the minimum wage might, might cost 500,000 jobs, might maybe. but then again the same report also said that it might cost zero jobs. now, the republicans won't tell you that part because, as usual, they'd rather scare you than help you. now, newt, america deserves a raise. >> america does deserve a raise, and if america had a president who was committed to a good economy, america would be getting a raise. but this is going to be a very interesting and very bold "crossfire" because i'm going to start with something you thought i wouldn't do. >> yes. >> if you take all the countries of europe, the ones that have a minimum wage on average have twice the unemployment level of the ones that don't. and when the ones that don't

have minimum wage, by the way, include germany, switzerland, sweden, austria. >> they've got a lot of other stuff going for them, too. >> this will be a great half hour because we'll stick right at the basics. i can't imagine anybody better than these two with us for this conversation. >> well, i agree with that. so in the "crossfire" tonight, we do have consumer advocate ralph nader. and i believe you have the chance to go with the first question to him. >> ralph's latest book is called "told you so." and stephen moore is also with us, an old friend of mine and a guy who understands an immense amount about creating jobs, the chief economist at the heritage foundation. we're glad to have both of them here. ralph, i just want to ask you for a second because even the latest report that says there will be 500,000 jobs killed, that ranged from zero to a million. what do you say to the folks who will lose the jobs so that others can get a raise? >> well, it also says that 16 million americans will get a raise, the cbo report.

so economic stimulus, number one, is when people have enough money to provide for the bare necessary toifs lifities the of the philosophy behind the minimum wage. we have a situation here where 30 million workers are making less today than workers made in 1968 adjusted for inflation. even though economists say worker productivity has doubled since the '60s. this is ridiculous. if we had an adequate minimum wage, we'd have tens of billions of dollars in economic stimulus creating consumer demand which economists think will get us out of the recession. more than that, we've got the lowest minimum wage in the western world across the river in canada, walmart makes nice profits and they have to pay 10.25 minimum wage. australia has $16 minimum wage, the lower unemployment rate. >> not the lowest in the industrial world because the fact is there are about a dozen counties in europe that have no

minimum wage starting with germany, switzerland, austria, sweden. let's just be accurate factually. go ahead. >> but it is also the case that those countries have stuff that you hate like really strong labor policies, really strong social policies. so if you don't have those things, you got to have a minimum wage. which brings me to you. >> universal health n. >> they also have double digit unemployment rates. that's the one thing we do know about europe. >> i want you to explain something to me. i think fim the conservative in this conversation and i think you're the -- i'm the conservative. our grandparents said, and they're smarter than i am, that we need to have a minimum wage in this country. we're not saying a billion dollars an hour. we're saying 10.10 an hour. just adjusting for inflation. if you are going to sit here and say we shouldn't even adjust for inflation, isn't your argument -- we're all friends here, we shouldn't have a minimum wage, isn't that your

view? >> the debate was pretty much settled this week when the congressional budget office -- newt you'll agree this isn't a friend with conservatives -- they're basically saying about a half a million, maybe a million. i think it will be half of that. i'll throw this right back at you. you know what the minimum wage is for those people who lose their job in it will be zero. their wage will go from 7.50 to zero. i want higher wages in this country but we've got to have policies that put america back to work. let me finish. the reason americans aren't getting a raise right now is because there's 20 million americans that are unemployed. the obama administration policies -- >> we're going to get to that. but you're not running for office, i'm not running for office, we're all friends here. be honest. >> yeah. >> you don't think we should have a minimum wage. >> i don't think the government should set prices and i don't think it should set wages. >> doesn't that make you the radical? >> let me say this, van, this is important. if we had a 4% or 5%

unemployment rate right now and the president said let's raise the minimum wage, i wouldn't have a big problem with that. but we have 10% unemployment in this country right now. you're going to put a half a million americans out of work. >> i just want to say for the record, i appreciate your honesty and your candor. you don't think we should have a minimum wage that makes you the rabble. >> we never raised the minimum wage and wages for workers went up in the 1980s. >> don't deny this. 32 million american workers, women and minorities, they favor a 10.10 minimum wage. 30 million american workers, the ones that clean up after us -- >> i don't know where you get that number 30 million. >> between 7.25 and 10.75, which is inflation adjusted since 1968. economists like you have said worker productivity has doubled,

automation. you got two walmart workers in 1968 making the work of one walmart worker today and they're making less. so this -- >> this isn't true. >> this is a restoration of the minimum wage to 46 years ago. going backwards into the future. >> you're forgetting something. we have something called the earned income tax credit which provides -- >> you want the government to fund the lower wages? >> i'd rather have an earned income credit rather than put this cost on the back of businesses because that's what destroys jobs. >> you want the taxpayer to fund walmart whose chief makes $11,000 an hour, newt? let me put it right down here. what do you say to this man? he moves -- this is "business week." wait, wait, give me a chance. he moves a thousand bags a day. he makes $7.25. inclement weather, airports, maybe your bag. wait, wait.

if he doesn't hustle, if he doesn't hustle, he's in trouble. you got bosses in swank offices who, even if they don't hustle, why lean away at $800,000 an hour. wait till i'm done. they're making $800,000 an hour. they can be whiling away at their desk. wait, wait, wait. >> let me respond to this. >> breaking wind and worrying about attending bowel movement and they still get $800,000 an hour. >> the vast marjts jority of wo who start at the minimum wage, my first job working at a warehouse was for the minimum wage. that was one of the most important job is ever had. that's one of the jobs that puts you on the road to economic growth and higher wages. but you know what? within six months, the average worker earning minimum wage gets a pay raise. the statistics are very clear on

this. most of the people who earn the minimum wage are teenagers or young adults. they're not heads of households. >> i'm sorry, but your cbo report says 12%. >> this will be an interesting fight which we'll get to in the next block. but i want to ask ralph one quick thing. you had the report, i think, two weeks ago that the obama care system will probably lead to 2.5 million fewer jobs, the report this week that minimum wage could lead to a half million fewer jobs, we're already in the lowest rate of employment since the great depression, shouldn't we be doing things to increase the number of jobs not decrease them? >> full medic for all, free choice of doctor and hospital will increase jobs, that's quite clear. >> that's not obama care. >> no, that's right. i'm not for obama care. >> it will save 45,000 lives a year because people who delay diagnosis or treatment because they can't afford health nshts are more likely to die. in terms of this -- this is what

really shocks me, steve. put yourself in the mind of these people, many of them have kids, they're trying to meet the necessities of life and they can't make what they made in 1968? >> we'll come back and deal with ralph's great concern. but if we're serious about growing middle class jobs, the minimum wage i think is the last thing we should be talking about. in a moment i'll tell you what i think we should be debating. [ male announcer ] whether it takes 200,000 parts, ♪ 800,000 hours of supercomputing time, 3 million lines of code, 40,000 sets of eyes, or a million sleepless nights. whether it's building the world's most advanced satellite,

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welcome back to "crossfire." this would be a great moment to be debating how to create more jobs. instead, we're debating another obama administration idea that we have been told will kill jobs. this week we learned the president's plan to raise the minimum wage could kill up to a half million jobs. that comes on top of the 2.5 million jobs we're told will be eliminated by obama care. by the way, a fourth hospital in georgia closed this week because of obama care. raising the minimum wage is an entirely artificial fight designed to draw attention away from the growing economic disaster this administration policies are causing. we should be fighting over how to get this economy growing about i'm happy to be so passionately dedicated to job creation i'm actually willing to let people work. in the "crossfire" tonight, ralph nader and steve moore. ralph, let me ask you this. the greatest success story in the u.s. -- we're not going to go off on german, swiss, i understand all these other countries that have no minimum wage that are successful, but the greatest success story in

the united states in the last decade is north dakota. north dakota today has an economy that's so powerful it is drawing workers in from across the whole country. they don't wore be the minimum wage because nobody gets paid it in north dakota. mcdonald's has paid up to $500 bonus to get people to come to work and it's been done by the private sector, most of that on private land developing oil and gas. now, from your perspective, is this a success story for america or is there something profoundly wrong with north dakota being so prosperous. >> first of all, the geological lottery, where they happen to be on a place on earth where there's fossil fuels that will create more global warming. north dakota has the highest rent, higher than manhattan. the inflation is going up. the people who have been in north dakota for many years are seeing an influx of all kinds of people who, like gold mining, so it's disrupting their way of life. and what they're making in wages

is now being eaten up with higher prices. >> ralph, there's a state that has almost as much oils a north dakota does, california. and yet california has decided they don't want to do the drilling, so they have a very high unemployment rate. it's craziness. >> silicon valley. california with hollywood. we actually have a knowledge-based economy in california. you would actually be applauding that. >> and why it is -- is it in the last five years texas has created one million more jobs than california while california has a bigger population. >> texas is trying to catch up to us and we appreciate it. >> we don't want to follow the lead of california. a 30% higher poverty rate than texas does. >> by the way, north dakota has a very successful state bank. >> that is true. >> people are getting rich in north dakota. >> listen, i am shocked to hear now the republican party going so far to the right that now minimum wage, raising the

minimum wage is some crazy outside the box socialism incredible idea. conservatives like yourself have traditionally found good reasons to support this. i want to put this on the screen for you. it's not just ralph nader that's concerned about the government giving corporate welfare to slacker employees. here you got a conservative saying there's many low-wage workers, and we pay a huge social welfare programs for them. it doesn't make sense for employers to pay their workers and not the government? i don't understand the case you were making earlier. >> right. >> why should american taxpayers be giving food stamps and medicaid to walmart workers? walmart is one of the most successful corporations in the world. shouldn't they pay their workers enough that america's government shouldn't have to give full-time workers at walmart food stamps? >> if you look at the managers at walmart and the people who are actually running a lot of

those stores, guess what? over half of them started at minimum wage job. here's what you and ralph don't understand. when you saw off those lowest rungs of the economic ladder, those starter jobs, then you can't move up the -- i want to make one more important point. this is important. the last time we raised the minimum wage was in 2008 and 2009 right in the middle of the recession. you know who the biggest victims were? the unemployment rate went up to 50% on black teenagers. how can you defend that policy? >> first of all, it went up from about 38 to 50 and then came back down. >> that's a high unemployment rate. >> it was high before. but listen, this is the serious question conservatives have to ask. the minimum wage that we're trying to push for now means that uncle sam, american taxpayers stop giving corporate welfare to people like walmart. how can you argue that walmart -- we should be giving them food stamps?

>> you and ralph keep thumbing your nose at these walmart jobs. every time they open up a new walmart store, people circle around the blocks to get those jobs. people want those jobs. and what newt and i are saying is you and the democrats don't have any ideas about how to create the jobs in the first place. >> we'll get to that. >> i haven't heard one. >> steve is playing the ditto game. newt, you're known for clapping with one hand. i have to admire you. you say it's 500,000 jobs lost, so on. but economists have said it's going to generate a huge stimulus for consumer demand because people will spend the money for necessities the y s i. steve, you're stuck on the mobility paradox, right? at any given time, never mind some may go from 7.50 to 8, 9, 10. >> or 15 or 20. >> or 20. at any given time there are 30 million of your fellow americans, where's your sense of compassion, who can't even -- >> it is not compassionate to put a million people out of work, that simple.

their wage is zero. >> there are 30 million people who will get a raise, they won't get put out of work. economies make adjustments. i didn't see you worry about all the people put out of work when nafta or you don't understand because you don't feel it. >> we know how to create jobs. not taxes. cut regulations and get rid of obama care. those things will put america back to work. >> let's not divert the subject. look, the main thing here is this. you have 30 million people, let's put a face on it. they take care ofory ailing grandparents and they clean up after us and produce the food, serve the food and pick up the baggage. these are the people -- >> they're not minimum wage. >> let's move on. >> look, you paint a very powerful picture, but there's also different picture. there is a picture of the young person who goes out to get their

first job who learns and who rises. historically in america, this is a country, we never expected to trap people in minimum wage jobs. we always wanted to have social mobility. the challenge to me is to figure out how we get back to a serious conversation that says we want you to be learning enough. i mean, you know, it drives me crazy that you have these huge bureaucratic systems that don't work that produce kids who can't read, who end up trapped in, trapped in a dead-end job because they've been cheated by the government and they don't have the kind of education they should have and it just seems to me, historically, you'll find a way to put people back to work and have them rise. >> i have an idea for that. pass a bipartisan immigration bill that you know would create 6 million jobs. why won't republicans pass the immigration bill that conservative economists like yourself, 6 million jobs. >> barack obama wants an amnesty

program. i mean, i'm all in favor of getting the -- anyone who wants to come into this country and work hard. immigrants come into this country oftentimes with only the shirt on their back and they rise up. the economic ladder still works in this country. >> what is so amazing to me is that there is a plan to create jobs. 6 million jobs be created -- >> we're going to come back. stay here. bh we co when we come back, we want you to weigh in on the fireback question. do you think the minimum wage should be raised to $10.10 an hour. if you don't think you're wealthy, hear what a big ceo thinks about your income. works you want everything. an expert ford technician knows your car's health depends on a full, complete checkup.

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now, it's time for outrages of the day. mega rich ceos telling working americans how happy they should be because their salaries would make them rich in some other country where may don't live. >> money is all over the place and the guy that's making, oh, my god, he's making $35,000 a year. why don't you try that out in india or some countries we can't even name, china, some other place. >> you got that? are you a mom or a dad and you're raising a family of five on 35 grand in chicago. no problem, just buy a home in

bangladesh and buy your food in china. problem solved. or not. look, today ceos are paying themselves 273 times what they pair average worker. so, ceos of america fewer pep talks and bigger paychecks. thank you. >> i'm outraged about the city of washington's failure with the drama of house of cards on netflix. perhaps you've seen it washington politicians behaving badly, i know that's a shock. but that doesn't really matter. the outrage is, "house of cards" is being shot in baltimore. that's because the bureaucracy here in the nation's capital is so incompetent it's been unable to give filmmakers the relevant tax breaks to bring their cameras and actor and actors here. the fact that it can't be made in washington and on capitol hill is an outrage. >> it's almost as big an outrage

two reports in one week, 3 million lost jobs. >> look, we want you to go to facebook or twitter and weigh in on our fireback question. do you think the minimum wage should be raised to $10.10 an hour. 56% say yes and 46% say no. >> restoring minimum wage to what it was in 1968, that's 30 million people who would get a raise for the necessity of life. costkeep co pays $11.50 an hour. >> let's create some jobs in this country. >> thank you both. i want to thank ralph nader and steven moore and the debate will continue online at cnn.com/crossfire. as well as on facebook and twitter. from the left i'm dan jones. >> from the right i'm newt gingrich. join us tomorrow for another edition of "crossfire." "erin burnett outfront" starts right now.

next breaking news. airports and airlines around the world on high alert tonight. u.s. officials linking a credible shoe bomb threat to al qaeda. plus, how colorado is making a killing on weed. the numbers are in, they may mean pot is coming to your state and pretty darn quickly. why are republicans, some of them, defending him. let's go out front. good evening, everyone. i'm erin burnett and "outfront" breaking news. tying the new threat of shoe bombs on airplanes to al qaeda. indications the threat could ultimately be tied to the