letting the private sector fill the gaps. today in the theater of absurd watching president obama in a meeting with only democratic governors attempting to reach tout republicans will be one of the more farcical events of republicans looking back on the ineptitude of this administration. be honest, wasn't that a bizarre moment? >> if you're looking for humor you're bragging on the red states, the red states are actually taking money from the blue states. we're the ones sub ssidizing th wonderful jobs your talking about. we have the wonderful pat quinn from illinois and republican governor -- >> wonderful, wonderful. >> governor perry of texas. i'm glad to have you here, but we're going to have a big fight tonight. i'm mad. you have this whole thing, this texas miracle, everybody is talking about how great the red states are. tell me why we should be trying to emulate you. >> you said all you need to say. from california.

you are out of there, brother. >> i'll be on a plane very shortly. listen, here's your beautiful red state. 11 of the 13 states with the highest kids in poverty, red states. food stamp use highest in the red states, not the blue states. hard to go from being poor to the rich in the red states. why should we emulate your miserable record. i'm sure you're going to brag on texas. >> all of these red state, when you think about it, because the real issue from my perspective is what's the best that you can do for your family? it's i got to think even van jones thinks it's to take care of my family so they can go on with what they want to do in life. >> no argument there. >> and having a job is the single-most important and red states are creating those jobs. in the state of texas we created 30% of all the job, all the private sector jobs from 2000 to

2012. now, you take those out of the equation, and president obama, he ought to be thanking me in texas for the job creation that we've done down there in texas over the course of the last few years. >> you thank the geological miracle of all that oil and the immigrants down there. >> number one, very glad to be here. i was with the president today. i'm here to recruit my good friend governor perry to raise the minimum wage in texas. our minimum wage is illinois is for people who work very hard. the prince approximately that's in the bible, we all believe in the bible. you shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week. i really hope you can raise the minimum wage in texas as we did in illinois and to join this all across america. if folks have a job, why not give them a living wage? >> amen. >> i just have to ask this. last year the head of

caterpillar complained publicly about the anti-jobs, anti-business tone of illinois. isn't it a fact when you look at job creation, the states that have raised the minimum wage actually have the worst unemployment rate and the fact is that illinois has lost people, i think it's lost 40,000 people in the last year, the largest outpouring of people in any straight in the country. so i understand why -- >> let's talk about job creation. >> it does kill jobs. >> job creation in illinois, the number one in the midwest sinces last may. we've created over 280,000 jobs. the head of caterpillar made bad investment decisions that hurt caterpillar and all of us in illinois. he should be held accountable for that. we believe in caterpillar, john deere tractors in our state, we have ford, chrysler, mitsubishi, all of them growing. when i became governor, chrysler had 200 jobs, now they have

4,700 jobs in belvedere, illinois. ford has three shifts. when i became governor they had one shift. we're very grateful to president barack obama for saving the american auto industry. we worked with him. we believe in organizing and uaw's organized mitsubishi, ford and chrysler. a good way to get good wages and fair working conditions for everyday people. and i still haven't heard from rick about the minimum wage. how about it? >> i don't think it's government's business to be setting the minimum wage out there. the cbo said if you want to get rid of 500,000 jobs between now and 2016 raise the minimum wage. here's the issue, pat, you got to believe this, at a time when jobs are at a premium in this country, the last thing you want to be doing is putting policies into place that will kill jobs and not only -- >> we are purchasing power in the hand of consumers. they'll spend the money. >> and to tell people that has a job today, i'm sorry, but to help these folks over here,

you're not going to have a job. that's the wrong message. >> every dollar you raise in the minimum wage creates $2,800 in purchasing power. 70% of our economy are consumers buying things. let's put more money in the pocket. >> we know that forcing small businessmen and women to raise the minimum wanl, they'll have to make the decision between whether they're going to hire people or raise the wage. >> all these studies show that -- >> no, no, no, that's not correct. you are absolutely wrong about that. >> you're the one quoting the cbo report which says zero to a million. so the same report you're citing actually makes this point. zero jobs lost or a million. they're kind of guessing there. but i want to ask you a question. you're sitting here defending these minimum wage jobs and we know for a fact that you have a lot of big corporations that are paying people full-time workers so little that they have to put their hand out for food stamps and for medicaid. do you think that big corporations should be able to pay people so little in america

that the government has to subsidize their workers? >> 95% of all the jobs that were created in texas during that decade were not minimum wage jobs. 95% of them are jobs that are paying above the minimum wage. when you have an environment where you have the tax structure that doesn't strangle small businessmen and women, you have a regulatory climate that's fair and predictable, a legal system that doesn't allow for oversuing and you put money into an accountable public school, then get out of the way, jobs will be created and good jobs. i'm talking good paying jobs in texas and it will work in illinois even. >> the majority of people who get the minimum wage are heads of households. moms and dads raising children. the most important thing you do in life is raising your children. isn't it important that we help everybody even those 5% of folks who aren't making -- who are making the minimum wage? >> the most important thing that we can do, governor, is to help create a climate where job creators know they can risk their capital, have a chance to keep as much of --

>> i'll tell you you something else. >> they'll keep people at work. >> i got one more then i got one more. >> rick perry, a good friend of mine, went to iraq and afghanistan together and we were roommates and we had some philosophical differences along the way. >> just a few. >> but his daddy was in texas, elected official. and he believed in sam rayburn who was a supporter of franklin delano roosevelt who strarted minimum wage. it was 25 cents an hour in 1938. now it has to keep up with the cost of living. so i think you ought to go back to your roots. >> you know what, my dad is going to have his 89th birthday in april. i was talking to him the other day, hey, dad, what do you think of this minimum wage being raised. he said, the government ought to stay out of our damn business. i'm just telling you an old democrat. >> mine is 96 years old. >> you're a senator, the fill la butser. >> a good conversation. >> but i want to switch to another burden that i think

weighs down heavily on job creation and the economy and that's the issue of pensions. today the manager in detroit cut the pension of everybody in detroit by 34%. >> the city of detroit. >> the city of detroit. which is -- so even if you're currently retired, this was a real cut even for retireds. chicago has eight times the pension burden of detroit per capita. now, i know you already shown real courage -- >> illinois did a $100 billion pension reform that i signed into law last december. i think it's important we have pension reform because we want to have enough money for our education, for our health care, for public safety, for our veterans. really important we reform the pension system. >> but mayor emmanuel has said that he hopes that the state legislature will help change the rules for pensions in chicago. actually, the eight times number does not count the teachers union pension which is an

additional multimillion dollar burden. do you think your state is going to have to do something fairly dramatic to get the chicago pension funds which is the largest in the country. >> they have to negotiate like anything in life, they have to sit around a table and negotiate a fair system. that's what we did at the state level for our major three pension systems of the state. and what i've also done for a couple of local pensions. >> but after your negotiations, the union, i think, have already said they're going to file a lawsuit and immediately try to stop whatever you negotiate. >> any law you pass is a major law will have to be litigated. we'll defend it in court and i think we'll win in court. the bottom line is you have to take action. i inherited a big disaster. when i got sworn in there was one former gov in in illinois in jail, the other going to jail. important to have strong ethics and definitely pension reform. >> we're proud of you for that. we'll talk a lot more about

unions. but i'm not done with you, governor. i think we're missing something here. when we get back, i'll tell you why the so-called texas miracle is a mirage. 0 hours of supercomputing time, 3 million lines of code, 40,000 sets of eyes, or a million sleepless nights. whether it's building the world's most advanced satellite, the space station, or the next leap in unmanned systems. at boeing, one thing never changes. our passion to make it real. ♪

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welcome back. in the "crossfire" tonight two governors, one of whom says he's making miracles in texas. mm-hmm. this is the big question tonight. should america's governor just do whatever big corporations tell them to do just to get jobs even if they're crappy jobs? well, actually, lots of countries are already doing that and the people there, they work endless hours for almost nothing. they drink poisoned water, they breathe poisoned air. they could be maimed on the job, fired for any reason. you know what's that called? that's called the chinese model. that's not the american model. in america we believe in extraordinary economic performance and extraordinary

environmental performance and consumer protection and labor protection. that's who we are. that's why people come here not the other places. now, i have nothing against folks who are stuck in third-rate banana republics. just don't let anybody turn your state into one. now, to you, governor -- >> what a setup. >> isn't it the case that you've given $19 billion in subsidies to these corporations and yet when you look at -- you've got a large number of minimum wage jobs. your new jobs some of them are minimum wage. a lot of minimum wage jobs. aren't you just bribing corporations to come and create crappy jobs? isn't this really just the texas mirage? >> no. but you really bring up a really interesting thing. as i shared with you earlier, 95% of all the jobs created in texas are above minimum wage. the jobs we're creating are good jobs. there's nothing wrong with entry level jobs. best i can tell nobody started out at the corner office.

so these entry jobs are important. here's the interesting thing that i think if you put the right tax policy and regulatory poll sis into place and with this shale gas phenomena going on in the united states and hopefully our administration will really push that forward so that we can take advantage of that even more, driving down the cost of power, and we're going to be bringing those jobs back from china. we're going to be bringing those jobs back from india and they're going to be paying a heck of a lot better and we'll create more jobs as long as we get the administration to go along with it. >> you have a pro-fraccer over here. >> be have to have proper environmental protections. but i wanted to ask you about health care. why not accept the money from washington to have more people with health coverage? we've done that in illinois. i can't understand why texas doesn't want to have everyday people -- >> the answer's really straightforward, governor, and it's we don't want to bankrupt our state. because we know what's going to happen. obama care -- >> hiring people in health care.

>> we've got some of the access to finest health care. 7500 qualified clinics in the state of texas. >> all these people have any insurance? >> the key is access to health care. what you're talking about doing with obama care is putting into place -- and i'm trying to find a lot of people that are for it now because it's become -- it's coming apart. >> people who are for it, the once who don't have to worry about pre-existing conditions any more, they now have health insurance, they can get bad things that might happen to them prevented in first place. >> let me ask you a question, how many people in illinois have sign up? >> 256,000. >> for obama care itself not medicaid. >> we have medicaid and the health insurance exchange. i can't understand why any of the governors -- we have indiana, wisconsin, they don't want to take an opportunity to have more of their hard wrorking people get health coverage. >> let me put you on the -- look i want to question you on this. there is a report that came out,

i'm sure you've heard, that says because you won't take this money you've got a bunch of people that they're too poor for obama care, they're too rip for m rich for medicaid, they'll fall through the -- more people will die. you like that cbo report. bhab that report? >> i don't believe that report. we've got the finest health care in texas where more doctors and nurses go to work there every day. we have access to the finest health care in the country in the state of texas. >> here's the more important question. would you rather make the decisions for health care for illinois, you and your legislature or would you rather a bureaucrat from washington, d.c.? because that's what we've got with obama care. they're making the decisions for you. i don't want them making decisions for us in texas. >> from the mississippi river to lake michigan decent health care for everyone. you can't have a system as you have in texas where's there's rolls royce coverage for some people and no coverage whatsoever for lots of hard

working people. you got to fill the gap. >> why are a thousand people a day moving to the state of texas because it's such a terrible place, van, that's what i want you to tell me, why. >> you can make it even better if you raise the minimum wage and provide health coverage. >> governor perry's relatively direct and quite cheerful about engaging. he just did an ad that i want to share part of it with you that gives you a sense of this engagement because it relates to -- >> opposition's a good thing. >> will you run that for a second? i want to share that with everybody. >> in texas we have conservative leadership. in illinois it's liberal. there's a big difference. 30% of all the jobs created in america in the last decade were in texas. and illinois, last year they were number 48. >> here's the question i want to ask you -- >> we're not 48th in job creation. we have more people which college degrees, graduated from high school. >> wait a second. >> we're number one when it comes to making sure we build

buildings in a 21st century way. his ad is not technically correct. the new report says you are 50th. >> that's baloney, too. >> competition is good. you put your policies into place. let's face it, illinois has liberal policies from the standpoint of tax and regulatory. they are. and people can pick and choose where they want to live, and they can move to indiana or wherever, but they are picking texas. >> let's talk about regulations, and it sounds good, and when i find out in your state 70% of your counties don't even have fire codes and you have that horrible fire in west texas because there is no fire codes, you can have too much regulation, but don't you think you are going too far when you

are against fire codes? >> you are trying to draw a straight line -- >> are you against fire codes or for fire codes? >> i am for letting those counties do it. rather than having one place decide how the rest of us in america are supposed to live. we are at the average. matter of fact, we are below the average on injuries. >> we have far fewer accidents because we believe in reasonable protections for every day people that live or work near them. >> you did sign a bill that would create a substantial number of jobs, and i commend you for that, getting that through a democratic legislature is a major achievement. would you be willing to talk to governors brown and cuomo, and

president obama, and tell them this is a good thing? >> i do want to ask rick one other question regarding texas and illinois. you know, we're really good at taking care of moms who are going to have baby, getting them off to a healthy start. and i see you are 50th in -- >> interesting one of the most important things we did in texas in 2003, we passed the most sweeping tort reform in the nation. >> on prenatal? >> yes, sir. we have 30 more doctors there, along the rio grand that didn't have access to obgyns that do today. tort reform is a powerful tool in the economics. >> i want to ask you all to say

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welcome back. it's time for our outrages for the day. i am outraged because nothing seems to change at the olympics. a remarkable coincidence, a

russian figure skater managed to win a gold medal even though she stumbled during her performance, and they claim the judging is anonymous, and we know one was married to the ice skating federation. i think the anonymous judge that threw the contest was vladimir putin. >> edward snowden, syria, and now this. my outrage is the arizona legislature. they passed a terrible bill yesterday, and it would let business owners pick and choose which customers they want to serve based on the owner's religious beliefs. this is obviously nuts, because anybody can use the bible to justify any kind of bigotry. slave owners used the bible to defend slavery.

segregationist use the bible to defend segregation. man should not mix what god himself has separated. i used to hear that growing up. i am a person of faith, but freedom to worship does not mean freedom to discriminate. >> go to facebook or twitter to weigh in on the fire back question, which states are working more effectively for americans. 42% say red, and 58% said blue. >> a lot of good viewers there. rick and i don't always agree, but we do agree on helping service members and veterans and we went to iraq and afghanistan, and we had many members of the national guard in afghanistan, and we have to make sure we are there in the battle.

>> thank you for mr. quinn and rick perry. from a blue state, i am dan jones. >> from the right, i am newt gingrich. join us monday for another edition of "crossfire," and erin burnett "out front" starts right now. next, breaking news. growing protest in arizona at this hour over a bill that legalizes discrimination against gays and lesbians. the phumunchies. a girl sells cook out outside of a pot store. good evening, everybody. out front tonight, breaking news.