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yet another change in information, frustrating for everyone particularly the family members. what do we know about this final version? what was said? >> you heard it from their own mouths, a news conference i was there, we all heard it, now we're getting a new story. look at this news release that we got from the malaysian government saying that the last transmission from air traffic control from the cockpit now is good night malaysian 370. read further down that news release, and you read that they are still doing forensic investigation to determine whether it was the pilot or the

co pilot who actually said all of this. two weeks ago, they seemed very certain about the facts. but now we're getting a new version, a new story. maybe just a slight variation of it, but still something new, anderson. >> i don't understand how -- you either have a recording of what was said or you don't have a recording of what was said. it's not like you can confuse the words there. what has this done to the credibility of the investigation? people have been skeptical all along about the inconsistencies coming from the malaysian authorities, particularly the families. >> yeah, as far as credibility, talk about another ding. a huge dent if you will, where's the transcript, everyone's been asking, where is the evidence, where is the transcript, this is certainly not going to still any conference from the other governments involved here, the families who have been asking for this evidence. they want to see did, it is certainly not going to extend any sort of good will to anyone. >> nick, in kuala lumpur, have

the families, particularly in china, they've been demanding more information all along from the malaysians. is there any indication they're getting what they want? >> anderson, some of them have actually come down from beijing in the last couple days here, and it does seem to be a slight stall on the part of malaysian authorities not to rush out and meet them at the highest level and to discuss all their questions with them. we do understand there's a high level delegation going to meet with those chinese families to answer some of those questions. you have to ask yourself, how high level is that delegation going to be. the defense minister who is the acting transport minister is out of the country for the next couple days, he has been heading -- he's the public face and front of the investigation and all that goes on here. it seems apparent he won't be attending that high level meeting. it makes you wonder who will go and brief them. that has a lot to do with the

politics of china and malaysia right now. whether or not the founders are going to be satisfied with what they hear. how much will they be told, that is unclear at the moment. >> do malaysian authorities believe this is a criminal act? >> they do, and there is a picture that the chinese families have put forward, they say they collected from data, public data that's available. this does seem to support, if you will what malaysian officials have been briefing, is that the plane was flown by someone in full control of it, who knew what they were doing, who knew how to ply. -- fly. and they are saying that the way that the plane turned back was a criminal act it doesn't appear that whoever was behind the controls was responding to some kind of emergency or mechanical failure. so that does seem to be what

we're hearing at the moment. again, will the families here get any further details, an explanation on that? we are certainly not getting here, anderson. >> just confusing when you see that map, with the plane basically flying very erratically. where did that come from? you're saying that came from families who said that -- families have figured that out based on data that we released in the media? that just seems completely without any basis in fact. is it? >> it does appear that way, it is borne, it appears again, we talk about it a lot. the frustration of families in china who get briefings from officials but weren't allowed to ask questions. so they prepare their own set of questions which includes a power point, which includes this map that they say they've discovered. we have this map, we have these details, what's your answer to it?

and so far they haven't been able to put that to them. what is the basis for that map, i think is going to require a lot more research to find out what data that it has been drawn from. what radar it has been drawn from. who drew it and when they drew it. they refused to confirm or deny it. they also said this sort of information is important to their investigation. the arc that it drew, if you will, of this so-called turnback certainly fits with somebody being in control of the aircraft. fits with that criminal act narrative that we hear at the moment. >> nic robertson, appreciate it. joining me now, author of why planes crash. david gallo, co leader for air france 447. former transportation department inspector mary schiavo. who currently represents accident victims and their families.

and cnn aviation analyst miles o'brien. david, let me start off with you. i'm confused by that map that was shown that's clearly the families saying they got the information from the internet, and they made up this map. that has no basis in fact whatsoever, and just seems to confuse the issue? >> absolutely. i get tweets every day about things. it's got to be here. it's got to be there. it's got to be based in fact. we have to start sticking to the facts. >> the fact that families are coming up with their own maps, and showing it to investigators gives you a sign of what little confidence they have in the information they are getting. >> why wouldn't they? the all right good night versus all right malaysia 370. investigations we put real numbers on those and calculate the probabilities and that lowers the confidence in that source. >> miles, what do you make about this complete turnaround, on what the final words coming from the cockpit were and now they are not even sure who said those final words? >> well, you know, the change in the final words, and who said it, it really doesn't change the

whole picture. especially completely out of context, since we don't have a transcript. it's closer to a standard response, because they indicate the airline and flight number. still doesn't have the repeated radio frequency which is the actual perfect response to it, let's take that aside, i think you hit on the key point anderson, the fact thawe are 25 days in and we don't have a transcript -- >> why not release the transcript? >> why not release it. why not release that? and why can't we listen to the recordings? it would be interesting to see if there was a change in the voice of the crew member that was responding? there may be a click of the microphone that might be dell -- telling. there might be stress in the vice of one of them. there's all kinds of things. this has not been released and at this point the families deserve to hear this. >> mary, let me bring you in, let me play devil's advocate. as investigations are going on, you don't want to release information in drips and drabs, technically, the malaysians did do that. we don't want to give out the transcript. why not? is there a good reason not to

give out the transcript? >> no, and in fact prior to the problem, i think the families are probably used to investigations that they read about in other countries. for example in the united states, the air traffic control tapes, the oral tapes plus the transcripts are released right away. but air traffic control tapes are, and people are used to seeing the transcript. last week, the malaysian government said, we're not going to release them, because it's secret, it's going to be considered secret in the investigation but then they dribble out the information. and it makes one wonder, why release this now? what purpose is it serving the investigators? and that will make the families question what the purpose is behind it. >> david gallo, you were co-leading the air france 447 investigation. you and i have talked over the last several weeks about how the public pronouncements were handled by french airline authorities.

what do you make of how the malaysians have handled thus far, and now this new turn of not releasing the transcript and now saying, oh, well maybe it was the pilot who said it and what he said was completely different than what he said two weeks ago? >> sure, it's frustrating, no doubt about it. the french clamp down on information pretty quickly on. it was called the criminal investigation, so they were very careful about what anybody said from the inside out. and at the time, i was very critical of it, now i begin to see the value of it. but at the same time, the families have a need to know, the public wants to know. it's a horrible situation. and i don't know what -- how do you -- from the investigative point of view, you want to get rid of all this extraneous stuff, stick to the facts and it's tough to know what the facts are. >> is that all the malaysians are holding back on, there's more technical information you would like to see? >> i have scientists that are talking to me all the time. even some within -- that say release this data, there are different ways to interpret the --

>> what type of information? >> well, what we're looking for is the l band of the doppler. >> what would that do? >> what that would do is give us real information as far as the relative distance that that doppler read those pings. because now we understand that those doppler pings are not physically saying it's this distance, it's saying this one compared to this one is that much different. so that row of lines could be here or here or here. >> you're saying, it's still possible that we don't know the real track of this flight? >> not necessarily that but it could be much more clearly defined as to where this track is. i'm not discounting the people who have done it so far. but i have leading professors who actually helped design the inmarsat, saying there is a lot of information we could use and i'm begging for it. >> do you agree with that, david? >> absolutely. the more i think about it, there's some pieces missing here that we need to have. we need to know the last known

position as best we can find out what that is, and then we need to know how far could the plane have possibly gone from that position on. i think inmarsat's got that stuff, it's frustrating not to have it. >> mary, were you surprised to hear the acting malaysian transportation administrator say there may be survivors after the prime minister said all lives were lost. that just seems -- i was stunned by that. >> i was too, and it's so in congress. one entity says one thing, the other says another, it's been a hallmark of this investigation, you know, last week announcing that the air traffic control tapes and the inmarsat data were secret and never be released. and then they dribble out information, announcing everyone had perished in the ocean. and then, turning around and -- it's like they're reacting but they don't know what they're reacting to. at this point it has so compromised their credibility that they really ought to be looking to forge a very close bond with australia and let them take a bigger role.

the credibility of their investigation at this point is doomed. >> when a pilot leaves the flight deck, a flight attendant has to head into the cockpit in his place or her place, which is something that is already done in the united states. can you explain for passengers why they do that? >> it's a security measure. you don't want to have a single person in the cockpit. if something happens, there's a person there to assist. in other words, if the flight crew member is on the other side of the door and some sort of bad thing happens, you have an additional person in there just to get the aircraft down as much as anything. and the fact that wasn't standard protocol for malaysia airlines is fundamentally a security hole. >> and you have i have been talked about this over the last several weeks. i come back to, and at some point, more people are going to start looking at passengers rights in terms of international carriers. i want to know now in international flight i'm going

on i want to know what's in the cargo hold, what their rules are versus u.s. carrier rules. all that stuff we have no right to learn at this point. mary, i don't know if you have a thought on that. >> oh, yeah, absolutely. certainly i didn't hear my name there, but, yeah. the problem for passengers, they assume they have a right to know these things, when you look at all the regulations, and this is including the regulations in the united states there are no rights for passengers to know these things, you have to pick your airline, you get to know your contract of carriage, what's listed on the website, you don't know what's under your feet. you don't know the age of the plane unless you can look up the tail number on some of the indices and you have very little information about that flight other than what they tell you on their website. >> we're going to check back with our panel in a few moments. let me know what you think. @andersoncooper #ac360. coming up the search for wreckage on the surface has its own challenge. there's a lot of garbage

floating in the ocean, particularly in this new area that they are searching in. and imagine finding anything under the water in total darkness, technology can do it. we're going to look at that next, we're going to get a live demonstration of the sonar pinger. that could lead search teams to the plane's black boxes. you'll hear what they sounds like, see what they look like when they hit the water. we'll have a demonstration ahead. they're approved for up to 30 nights of continuous wear. ask your doctor about safety information as serious eye problems may occur. visit airoptix.com for a free one-month trial. bob will retire when he's 153, which would be fine if bob were a vampire. but he's not. ♪ he's an architect with two kids and a mortgage. luckily, he found someone who gave him a fresh perspective on his portfolio. and with some planning and effort, hopefully bob can retire at a more appropriate age.

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welcome back, a little past 8:00 a.m. in australia and the search for flight 370 has resumed. 10 planes, 9 ships looking for any signs of wreckage in the indian ocean. four orange objects turned up to be nothing but fishing gear. not to mention the extra difficulties of finding anything on the water, tom foreman has that tonight. >> for all this talk about high-tech gear being brought in to search under the water, that is useless by and large until they complete this overwater search, which is now covered hundreds of thousands of square miles already. now we're off the coast of australia, they've redefined the search areas over here, several times and they're still doing it day in and day out. but they have to. because the job of searching above the water is comparatively easy as daunting as is it,

compared to the challenges below the water. let me show you why this matters so much, above the water you can scan many many many miles all at once. below the water even if you get just a mile down, darkness reigns and now you have to use nothing but devices to help you look below here. whether it's side-scan sonar or some kind of device listening to pinging under the water there. this will only reach out maybe a mile, maybe two miles, it's very limited even in the best of conditions. so you can only scan 50 square miles, 60 square miles a day on a good day. if you're talking about a 90,000 square mile area, you can take well over a year to scan it if you don't have guidance. that's why for all this high-tech equipment, they can't just go diving beneath the waves until they are sure they have a clear target. as i said, assuming it still works. here's what they're going to be listening for.

that knock-knock sound is the sound of a sonar pinger. you are looking at the shape you are looking at the shape that it makes on the screens. we've been talking about the black boxes and pingers and how they're activated almost from day one when they hit the water, we want to give you a demonstration with david soucie. and director of special projects is with us. former transportation general mary schiavo, and analyst and veteran pilot miles o'brien. david, you have the pinger, explain how it works. >> this is the pinger, it gets replaced on the c check.

there's one of these on the cockpit voice recorder and data recorder. two boxes, that's the battery. this battery does not keep the memory in it, the memory's already stored, it's solid. even after this goes off, the data is still stored in here. i've had that question. >> this battery is for the actual pinging sound? >> that's correct. and we have a thing of water here. how does it work? >> i'll place it in there in a second. >> what's going to happen, we have 37 kilo hertz. which is higher that the human ear can hear. but it moves through water pretty well. what we have here is the connecter, the plastic area in between, keeps it isolated, as soon as the water connects that dot with this case is when it starts -- >> do you know what distance it can broadcast from? >> it's supposed to go up to 3 miles. now remember, as gallo, i'm sure, will point out here, there's a lot of interference. you can hide submarines under thermal differences in the water.

i learned a lot from david on that. >> let's put it in the water and see how easy it is to locate it. >> i'm going to turn this on. tune it in to the right frequency. we're going to put it right around here. turn it all the way up. i'll see if i can do this. before i point this out, i don't know if they still have the tight shot, it says keep in a cool dry place in that box. that's important, we're going to talk about that in a minute. here's the pinger, it's attached to the black or orange box, as soon as it goes into the water. >> it's already starting. >> yep. that quickly. immediately. >> it doesn't have to be fully submerged. as soon as you put it just a little bit in the water it started. >> if the water connects with that dot in the case, it just grounds it out. that's when it knows to start pinging. >> you know the terrain underneath where the search area is now, initially you thought it wasn't too bad, it was pretty

difficult? >> initially where the search area was a few weeks ago, wasn't so bad. it was very routine underwater topography for scientists to search. now it's moved into a tricky place with a lot of steep cliffs with hummocky. with lumps and bumps. you could hide behind it one of those and never hear it. >> the sound can play tricks on you? >> sure. it can be bent by topography. can you have thermal layers that would attenuate the sound. all sorts of ways to lose that pinging sound. and especially distance. it may not even be close to it. air france, the pinger itself was at a depth of two and a half miles, so it was quite deep. so you really had to be right on top of it to hear it. >> and the pinger locator that can be towed, it can even get to

some of the deepest parts of the search area, is that right? >> well the pinger -- the tpl can go to about 6,000 meters. that will get to most of the area. the auv can get to most of it. but there are pockets it may have problems with. >> it had got to be towed at a slow speed, 3 miles an hour, i think. in terms of the area you can search, you're only going to be able to search 150 square miles a day. that's a big challenge for searchers. >> it's a very big challenge for searchers, unless they get additional information. they're going to have to rely on luck. at this rate it would take a week or so to cover the area. they only have a week left. >> david gallo saying before that, early on in the air france search, 447, the listening devices went over the area where the black boxes were and heard nothing.

debris and silt can make it harder for the pingers to be detected. >> or maybe it wasn't pinging at all. that is a possibility. in the case of the famous sully flight into the hudson river. the pinger attached to the cockpit voice recorder on that flight, it was easy to recover. it was still in the aircraft. it never operated. we don't know for sure. >> that gets to your point of keeping it in a cool dry place. it's important that it be stored correctly in order for the battery life to continue. >> it's critically important for that, as it gets hotter, it has less life. as much as half life, which we have word from an auditor, which audited malaysia airlines, these batteries were being stored in this hot, hot room. the auditor got a touch, said, let's get rid of those. subsequently looked at it again, and found they weren't following that procedure.

>> frightening stuff. thanks to our panel, you can find more on the mystery of flight 370 on cnn.com. 24 days into the search, time running out, we're going to get the latest from the commander william marks in the southern indian ocean. what he sees from his vantage point. gary tuchman shows us how a silicon valley start-up is helping with the search. its satellites, incredibly powerful but they also have their limits. we're going to look at the future of earthquakes in california coming up.

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getting some breaking news now. news that paints a clearer picture of why search teams were looking in the wrong place be t