visually patrolling the ocean surface while 14 ships will sweep the deep water listening for sounds. australia's prime minister says there's not a moment to spare. >> what we're now doing, given that the signal from the black boxes rapidly fighting what we have now doing is trying to get as many detections as we can so that we can locate -- so that we can narrow the search area down. >> search crews both in the air and on the sea have confirmed zero audio detections in the past 24 hours. one group of people's whose patience ran out hours ago are the families. a group of them met again with airline and malaysian officials. the mother of a missing passenger is not happy. she says they keep telling her the same things, nothing useful. cnn's michael holmes is in perth, australia, right now. and that's where this massive multinational search mission is being run. michael, this is a drill every day the planes take off at

daybreak. they return in the evening and report. they saw nothing. what's the frustration level that you're sensing there, if any? >> yeah, you're right, don, it must be frustrating for the crews up there. some of them are doing 150 hours a month out there in the air and scanning back and forth. we're into our sixth week now. and they found absolutely nothing from this plane other than those pings from the flight recorder or believed to be from the flight recorders. you heard the australian prime minister tony abbott say everyone involved in this search is starting to get close to the opinion that they might not get another ping that these bat drink ryes may indeed be dead if if that is the case they've got to work with what they've got, the four confirmed pings from the data recorders and try to bring down the search area as much as possible and why do they have to

do that? well, the next step is submersible, the flbluefin. takes two hours to lower it down, 16 hours down, and two hours to bring it back up again and then time to download the data. it's time consuming process and it travels literally at walking pace which is why they're getting the vessels, the "ocean shield" and the "echo" to go down and sweep those areas for as long as they can before they finally have to accept that those pingers aren't going to ping any more. and then they go to that submersible

from your bridge, the height of your bridge. and he said it's between 17 and 20 nautical miles. and that is really an enormous area. daun daunting task. >> you're the expert on these pings. i haven't spoken to you since we heard the other pings being located last week. hearing three and then four. what's your assessment? many people are saying it's kind of a miracle they're actually able to hear this. >> yes, but i -- i agree with mary. i think that we've heard the last dying gasps unfortunately and now we have to do the best we can with analysis of what we do have. and move forward from there. >> yeah. you mentioned, fabien, you were

uncomfortable because this is a small sliver of evidence but it's the best evidence yet. i guess the other evidence would be any sort of physical debris or wreckage from the airplane which we have found nothing and we haven't heard anything about any visual sighting. no one has mentioned a visual sight r sighting since last saturday. >> a lot more questions than answers. as far as the basis of knowledge it's almost nonexistent except for those four pings. if we could find physical evidence floating we could track it back through the currents and everything else to a general location and that would certainly enhance the -- the idea that the area is a quantifiable, qualifiable area. or if the sonar, whether it's the bluefin-21 or other would pick up a nice trace at the bottom of some object that would really give us a good visual on that possibility, i think that would make it a lot easier. >> mary, you know, i was talking

to les abend in our last show, les actually did his real job this week. we actually took a -- flew to london as a 777 pilot and he said people in the industry, the crew of the planes of pilots, the flight crew, everyone is talking about this particular story and how to improve and, you know, to come up with their own theories. and you as well, i know that you attended a con frerference a co of weeks ago. but i imagine as an investigator when you're not on cnn,which is not a lot of your time, people talk to you and have many questions about this. >> yeah, i was at the aircrafts investigator conference a couple of weeks ago, is what don is referring to. oh, yes, everybody has theories and i get e-mails every day. thoughtful people. people send me pages and pages of theories. everyone wants to help solve it. it's really kind of encouraging that the whole world cares so

much and really wants to contribute. >> yeah, but where do we go from here? is there a lesson to be learned yet because we don't even know what caused it. i think the lesson is, though, in tracking an airplane and how not to lose an airplane. >> absolutely. that was the number one discussion that the air crash investigators conference. everyone's conclusion was the constant downloading, the glass box as opposed to the black box theory or there are still some other possibilities out there, make everyone subscribe to the systems status update messages, you know, those constant messages of the health of the aircraft through acars which goes back to the engine manufacturing, boeing, or the airline, however they choose to set it up. i think the inclusion of everyone is something has to change. particularly when the cost of this operation is going to be tallied, you will have a real incentive to change because it's

just too expensive to go through again. >> all right. thank you. everyone, stick around. when we do find this wreckage, someone is going to have to put it together, are they, are malaysia or australia up to t t this. we're going to talk about that next and what they're up against. and a partly sunny mode. and an outside to clear inside mode. new transitions® signature™ adaptive lenses now have chromea7™ technology making them more responsive than ever to changing light. so life can look more vivid and vibrant. why settle for a lens with one mode. experience life well lit. upgrade your lenses to new transitions® signature™. woman: everyone in the nicu --

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found the task of figuring out what caused it to crash will be a lengthy one, of course. all the pieces, all the parts need to be put back together like a puzzle, maybe. cnn's stephanie elam went inside to the institute's accident lab. >> the investigators here tell me they go through it piece by piece. they want to get as much of that wreckage as possible together and even then, even which all of

that they're able to cull together, they still may not be able to find that one piece that brought the plane down in the first place. >> let's get back to our panel now. also joining us is geoffrey thomas. i want to get to mary quickly. mary, we may not have to put this plane back together. i've asked you this question before and you've answered it. if the data recorders are found and the information is intact, which you think it will be once they are found, the plane, they won't want to reassemble this airplane. >> right. that's correct. and in most crash investigations they do not reassemble the plane. obviously they sift through the wreckage looking for important clues and major component to failure, et cetera. but if the black boxes have the answer and they can glean what happened from them, then they won't put the plane back together. it's just a very expensive proposition and it's rare that they do that, actually. >> yeah. so, geoffrey, they have been

looking for the black backes and so far they haven't found them. fit comes down to relying on the debris, are they up to the task if they have to piece together the wreckage? >> look, don, i really do believe they are. australia's aviation transportation safety bureau is one of the best in the world. they've helped nations in the near proximity like indonesia. they've helped them with their crash investigation. they've helped the singaporeans as well. they've got a very, very good track record, very methodical and certainly in the same class as the ntsb and the aaib, and the bea in france. so, yes, they are up to the task but i agree with mary, hopefully the black boxes will give us the information we need because actually recovering this a

airplane that far down would be extraordinarily difficult to do and hopefully we won't have to do that. >> i'll have to ask you to double down on this question and this is a compliment really because the air safety record in australia is a really good one. especially when it comes to p this one wonders if you haven't really had that many air investigations to deal with whether or not you're good or experienced at dealing with this kind of investigation. >> that's an interesting -- very interesting observation. you're absolutely right. we have never had a fatality in the jet era with jet powered airplanes but unfortunately we've had lots of crashes of piston powered planes and also turbine prop planes as well. and as i said earlier, we have helped other countries with their investigations which have involved large commercial aircraft. so i believe absolutely the expertise is there. >> all right. do you have a question? >> i agree with mary in terms

of, you know, it would be best case scenario if the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder deliver absolute conclusions. one thing that concerns me slightly is the whole nature of this mystery and how we can even understand why the aircraft go into the position that it did. for me that leaves a lot of open questions that i'm actually not sure the fdr and the cvr might answer. so it's best case scenario but the wreckage could allude to a lot more, i think. that's going to be an impossible task to salvage that. >> mary, was a twa flight 800 and you mentioned another crash not in the too distant past that where they had to reassemble the aircraft to get the information from it. >> well, the big reassemble was twa 800 because the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder combined, they just didn't contain the clues.

all there was was a very loud noise at the end of the tape. that's because the explosion ripped all the wires, just ripped the plane apart. and there was no more transmission. so it was -- it was an investigation need-based reason to put that plane back together. it was largely put back together. it was quite a sight to see. it's a training tool now in virginia. >> les? >> i think mary would agree with me. it depends on what the flight data recorder shows us. it shows us enough evidence we have a definitive idea of the cause, great. otherwise we may have to reconstruct that airplane, depending upon what we find out from most of those recorders. >> fabien, at depth, is that a monumental task, is the temperature of the ocean preserves the aircraft? i don't know. >> any depth this task would be a monumental task. at depths of 3 or so tons per

square inch, try and bring up a plane or pieces of a plane is certainly an exercise in forensics. that said, it's absolutely feasible with today's technology and with the amount of effort that all of these people are putting in there. you know, it becomes a little bit, to me, a question of prevention or at the very least being prepared for these kinds of issues and this, you know, afterthought of cost should be more of a prevention. for example, the gulf oil spill or some of these other issues that we've had, the nuclear meltdown in fukushima. all of these are cost benefit analysis of what is pin mum acceptable risk that we take in terms of safety factors in terms of what's the maximum amount of safety we can put into these different platforms so that next time we're ready for it. >> yeah. all right. when we come back right back, our coverage is going to continue of 370.

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more on flight 370 in just a moment but first we continue to follow the new developments in the crisis in ukraine.

secretary of state john kerry spoke with russian foreign minister sergei lavrov about the escalating violence. kerry said he expressed strong concern that attacks today by armed militants in yearn ukraine were orchestrated and synchronized similar to previous attacks in eastern ukraine and crimea. kerry also threatened additional consequences if russia did not take steps to de-escalate the situation. the white house responded earlier not reports of violence by announcing it's sending vice president joe biden there on april 22nd. here's a reason for that reaction from the white house. in ukraine police exchanged gunfire with pro-russian activists today. about 20 men wearing matching -- military fatigues took control of the city's police headquarters. just about 70 miles away gunmen stormed 22 buildings including one belonging to police. three officers were hurt. nick paton walsh is in ukraine

where the violence is escalating. >> don, a troubling escalation here in the last 24 hours. we've been traveling around to see what's happening in these towns where gunmen, pro-russian militants have been springing up almost overnight. one have taken the police station and the local security building as well. very well equipped and armed men. often in matching camouflage uniforms getting help from locals to give them food and pull up barricades and aggressive western journalists. another town, we went there to find protests had taken down the ukrainian flag from the center of that particular town and put up the separatist one instead. calm relations with the police who seem to be able to coexist with them but merge later on in the day, reports of gunfire, the interior ministry claiming in fact pro-russian what lmilitia had exchanged fire with the police. deep concerns there. we're seeing weapons more readily involved in the standoff

here many are worried, too, because protesters forced the resignation of the local police chief here today. many are worried about the response from kiev and the government is struggling to work out what they're going to do and we're not seeing police here really coming out to stop these pro-russian militants. don? >> nic, thank you very much. malaysia hasn't impressed many people with the handling of this investigation. if the black boxes are recovered will we trust them to uncover the secret of what happened to the secret of what happened to flight 370? stand. (dad) we've never sold a house before. (agent) i'll walk you guys through every step. (dad) so if we sell, do you think we can swing it? (agent) i have the numbers right here and based on the comps that i've found, the timing is perfect. ...there's a lot of buyers for a house like yours. (dad) that's good to know. (mom) i'm so excited. (mom) when our little girl was we got a subaru. it's where she said her first word.

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frustration with the malaysian government started early on, xwining with an incorrect flight path that was eventually resolved by the uk company inmarsat.

after being told by the malaysians that every passenger on board flight 370 had been cleared of any suspicious involvement in the plane's disappearance we just learned this is not the case. the defense minister saying this is still a criminal investigation. quote, everyone on board remines under suspicion as it stands. just the latest in a long line of flip-flops from malaysians. >> very clear we have some big holes and problems and a bit of a cover-up over the malaysian radar and the indonesian radar. there's been so many different stories. i mean, i think they have a credibility problem. >> well, if and it's still a big if, flight 370's black boxes are ever recovered, it is unclear who would handle the crucial information inside. malaysia's government admits they don't have the know-how, how to deal with these black backes. i want to bring in now joe johns in kuala lumpur.

what do we know about the event the black boxes are found? >> we know know they have already said they will actually have to call in an expert to look at this because they do not have the expertise on their own. and we also know that there are at least three countries that can handle it that would be the united states, the uk, as well as australia. it's not clear which one of these countries might be preferred. it's also possible certainly that they could bring in an international working group, a number of different countries involved in this, and they're also concerns about bringing in china because china has a very close relationship with malaysia and china also had a number -- actually a majority of the passengers who were on board the plane. don? >> so, joe, reuters is reporting that malaysia is investigating its own initial chaotic response. what do you know about this? >> reuters is reporting based on sources that malaysia's government has begun

investigating civil aviation and military authorities to determine why opportunities to identify that plane, to track that plane were missed in those very chaotic hours after the plane vanished. note, we here at cnn have been reporting the malaysian air force sent search aircraft on march 8th to the south china sea and the strait of malacca according to sources. but apparently the military did not tell sivill civilian author until later. it's still under contention. don? >> joe johnson, kuala lumpur. praying for a sign, staring at the motion, i should say, praying for a sign of flight 370. the search for the missing plane will take a toll on anyone. straight ahead, could fatigue make it even harder to find the airliner? i have low testosterone. there, i said it.

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right now search crews are scanning mile after mile of the sorch indian ocean on this the 37th day since malaysia airlines flight 370 went missing. not a swrhred of debris has bee turned up. they are getting tired. find debris, find answers for desperate relatives for 239 families wait for any word on their loved ones. cnn's international correspondent matthew chance flew alongside a weary crew.

>> reporter: in the skies over the indian ocean search teams scour the surface for any sign of flight 370. but after more than five weeks into this grueling mission a thousand miles from land, not a piece of debris has been found. this pain staking work is taking its toll. >> significant part of that, huge. are you frustrated at all that nothing, nothing has been found? >> i would say frustrated. we are -- we're are -- we're disappointed that we haven't found that, none of the aircraft have found anything. from experience, it takes time. >> reporter: on board this orion p-3 aircraft there's advanced radar and optical equipment to

monitor the ocean below. the search teams say their greatest asset is the human eye. to avoid fatigue, crew members are switched out from the 11-hour flights every day in the search zone they scan the water in 30-minute shifts to maintain con concentration. >> have you spotted anything on this ship? >> no, no, unfortunately not. we're just going to carry on though. so, yeah, we will be in half an hour. see how it goes. >> reporter: even after so many weary hours of searching, fatigue has yet to dampen hopes of finding flight 370. matthew chance, cnn, over the indian ocean. >> so right now 12 planes, 14 ships involved in in sunday's search. they may face rough weather, possible isolated showers. time is running out. battery powered signals from the black boxes may soon go silent. mary schiavo, first to you. how would fatigue play into this

investigation. with each passing day does the effectiveness of the search teams fade? >> oh, yeah, i mean, they know that from various studies that transportation entities have performed. sometimes even just staring at screens talking about how could the air traffic controllers have missed this plane. when you're staring at a representative task be it screen or staring at the motion looking for something, fatigue and kind of zoning out, if you will, can set in in as little as 30 minutes. so you have to keep rotating the people just like the gentleman said. they're doing it the right way. >> and, paul ginsberg, what about fatigue for audio tech anythings working this case? if they get too tired could they miss something important? >> absolutely. and it does happen. when you are trying to get something that you -- that you just can't perceive, you can't hear quite enough, if you're tired you just -- as mary said, you're going to zone out. you need to unfortunately you need to get up and just come

back in half hour and pick it up or be relieved by another -- another shift. >> i got to question for you. do you remember when we were talking about sea light being able to listen or area pings, right? and -- or being able to hear sea life or whatever frequencies, higher frequency, younger ears. is it better to have someone -- i'm being quite honest here -- with younger ears to listen for that frequency? might they hear better because the older we get the higher frequencies go away, right? >> that's correct. and also any -- any hearing loss can additive and irreversible. it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse. if you were raised in a forest your hearing would be excellent through your lifetime. whereas if you're in a city, it starts to degrade quite quickly. but you're right, on the other

hand, what we have here is something that really is above the range of hearing and what they're listening to are translated frequencies down below so that they are within the audible frequency like our simulation. >> all right. all right. very good point. thank you for answering that. michael kay, you were a pilot in the british royal air force. how do you keep motivated here when you're not finding any success? as you were saying and listening to this story, you said these guys and ladies, they take this personally. >> yeah. it's a great question. i think it's something that we need to be cognizant of in day 37 of this search. i've been involved in a couple of search operation on a much, much smaller scale, but you become emotionally attached and you take it personally responsible. you want to be that crew that finds something. i think on day 37 there are all sorts of human factors that come into this which ultimately will affect not only operational

effectiveness, as mary was saying in terms of the analysis on operations in the past, but also safety. safety is absolutely paramount in this. you've got loss of aircraft and ships floating into the area. people are going to start getting tired because of the long nature of the flights on obviously the long nature of the search. i think the last thing that angus houston needs at the moment is to have an incident in the search area that would just compound the primary objective. it is absolutely key and as someone that's led teams in these sort of types of scenarios, motivation is key, safety is key, making sure that you can identify people are getting fatigued. because when you're searching you don't want to be the person that stands down and says, you know, i'm too tired here and hand it over to someone else group keep going. >> that's where rest is extremely important. >> that's why they have rules in place for airlines, especially for pilots, because they can become monotonous when you fly overseas. >> as an airline pilot

perspective, mundane tasks, crews, keeping a watch over systems and so on and so forth, that's the most fatiguing part of it. when we get involved with the approach phase we're energized, we know we've got a task to perform. but this stuff prior can be mundane and that's really more fatiguing than anything else for us. >> on expeditions, typically you have four-hour or eight-hour shifts and you have multiple crews that relieve. so that you don't get to that point of fatigue and, of course, overlooking something or, worse yet, making a mistake. >> i'm going to go a little bit more indepth about this but mission 31, is it 31 expedition? >> mission 31. >> mission 31. you're going to be under the ocean for a month. >> taking a team -- >> that can be tedious and no nonus to. >> not only that, not only monotonous but very tedious because we're tasked with multiple different tasks on the level of science, education, and, of course, filmmaking. in a habitat and outside a

habitat that also gives us a slight you feuphoric sense beca we're is t sat chur rated. that feeling lends itself to enhancing any kind of effects of fatigue and all that so that there could be mistakes and we have to be extra vigilant not to make any mistakes at that depth. >> do you get that euphoric feeling, in the air sometimes you get it, problems are so easy to solve in the air. once i land i was liking what was i thinking when i was flying? >> when you get above a certain level, 10 to 12,000 feet, you get that starvation for oxygen you get that you foeuphoria. high-tech tools are front and center in the search for flight 370. next, we're going to look at sonobuoys and how they could sonobuoys and how they could find the black backes. for half. and i don't need to be online for it to work. it runs office, so i can do schedules and budgets and even menu changes.

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continues, sonar buryes dropped in the sky could help to find 370's black boxes deep in the indian ocean. brian todd has been looking into these high-tech devices. >> reporter: they're dropped out of a plane, plummet into the sea with a parachute. descend below the surface, hunt for their payload. these are not bomb or torpedos,

they're called sonobuoys. >> they're a sensor package out of the aircraft. will deploy a hydro dols phone. >> once it hits the water surface it has saltd water switches that starts activating different deployments. everything in this canister starts to unwind. there's a bunch of gear in there that is packed in nicely. there's a radio antenna that talks to the aircraft so the buoy and the aircraft are constantly in communication. microphone is listening for signals on a very long string and they deploy below the canister. >> reporter: the australians got this batch from american manufacturers, sent a cargo plane to indiana in recent days to pick up more than 1,000 sonobouys. the device was first tested and deployed by the u.s. navy but not for this purpose. >> in antisubmarine warfare this is one of the tools the navy has to look for and track enemy submarines. so they're under the ocean surface, they don't have a radar signature. you need to use sound and smart waves both actively and passively to find them and track

them. >> reporter: in this mission the sonobouys and orion planes deployed will detect sounds of black box pings. sonar operators on board the aircraft are manning xurcompute to receive and analyze the signals. they are dropped in a >> the beauty of these things, sonar buoys, they stay out a long time. up to eight hours. >> reporter: then expire and sink to the bottom. they can go around 1,000 feet down. how do they detect signals? possibly from black boxes which could be as far down at 14,700-plus feet. experts say the sound 34506move through the water and with good weather signals are easier to hear. >> with time running out our already run out on the black boxes, what's next? we'll talk about that, coming up. (dad) well, we've been thinking about it and we're just not sure.

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back now with our panel of experts, fabian cousteau, talking a lot about challenging marine environments. you're working with a unique underwater project we've been talking about a little. tell us about mission 31. >> i'm taking six aspiring aquanauts to live and work underwater at the only undersea marine laboratory for 31 days. and that allows us to experience the underwater world in a way that is very rarely afforded. >> and you know, we've learned about the ocean in this particular case. it's sad that it took this incident to do that, but there's so much about the ocean that we don't really know. much of the indian ocean they're searching for this plane and the black boxes. it hasn't even been mapped. >> take the last three generation or last 100 years of ocean exploration. we've explored less than 5% of our oceans and presumably it's -- represents 99% of our

world's living space within which about 95% of our biodiversity lives and thrives. so there's a lot down there for us to explore and discover, and we just haven't had the opportunity to live on that frontier long enough to start really digging up those mysteries and being able to get that hugen/ocean connection. >> how far down will you be? >> well, we're at three atmospheres, which is pretty -- pretty reasonable. we can still breathe air. three atmospheres is 66 feet. where we'll be based, but it allows us as opposed to being baitsed on a ship, allows us to go scuba diving for 10, 12 hours at a time and come back to that habitat instead of having to go up after 45 minutes. of course, it's depth and pressure dependent, but basically it does afford us to go deeper, longer and further, to film, to do scientific experiments, bring back data and, of course, to be able, in

this particular case, for 31 days, to broadcast live to the world and connect with people through the advent of twitter and facebook and using your nokia device, whatever you want, to communicate with the average person, which has never been able to happen before. >> and fabian invited me. i'm going to go if the bosses will let me. okay. so we'll go down -- >> look forward to having you down there. >> it's facingated. i've been telling everyone i'm fascinated by the ocean. my favorite documentary is blue planets with david attenborough from the bbc. amazing. six or eight different hours of things, aquatic life, to everything. amazing. we've been talking about different scenarios of what happened to the plane before it presumably ended up in the indian ocean and do you remember we were doing a simulator, with mitchell and with martin, and you were saying, if in some of these scenarios they would have had masks on, oxygen masks on,

right, and less we-- and les di this normal job. demonstrate, tell us about the pictures we'll see? >> just a demonstration of hour cumbersome it can be in an emergency situation, if you've got a smoke/fire situation, even a situation where you have a decompression. that would be the same mask in either case. and you have to communicate through that mask. with a switch on the control wheel, and go through a checklist and your vision is limited, as it would be very even more limiteded by, by smoke, visibility in the cockpit. it's something we don't practice very often. even in a simulator, because it takes so much time to do it. >> go ahead, mike. >> we've been talking a lot about this. is there a scenario that you can envision where you had some sort of mechanical failure and wouldn't be able to get those masks on? from what i'm led to believe,

through our conversations, that's the number one priority in any emergency. >> we were talking about that today coming back from london. the possibility could have been they might have exhausted their supply of oxygen by having a high pressure, high-stress environment like you would scuba diving. the other thing, if it wasn't maintained properly, could be the valves were off for the crew. i don't want to make speculation on that, but it's happened. >> we've talked about that. mary schiavo, your response was, who knows. if they're in an emergency situation, it's a catastrophic failure of some sort, if they're going to, you know, go through all of the motions, they're just trying to keep the plane in the air and to save all the passengers and to get to an altitude where they can get fresh air. >> that's right. exactly. valujet scenario. >> go ahead, mary. >> well, as i said, in the valujet scenario, they didn't get their masks on. turns out that the pilots weren't adequately trained.

it's not the pilots' fault, they didn't have the training. but other situations where they haven't been able to get the masks on. les is so right. it's all in the training. know where it is, how to get it on and how important to do that. so it all comes back to basically how well were they trained, if they had an emergency, how well were they trained to do it? >> treinteresting, as paul said. pre-planning, looking for the black boxeses listening for the blacks boxes. you may have a check list were training. when it actually happens, you know what? and you don't know what's going to happen. >> that's right. that's right. when the real event happens, you just try not to panic, to be calm and to go through whatever procedures you've been trained. this is just a function of how well you've been trained. how experienced you are. >> yeah. >> we call it muscle memory. >> muscle memory. yeah. all right.

you guys are amazing. thank you so much for helping me out through this hour. thank you, mary, thank you, paul. appreciate you mike, of course, les and fabian cousteau. i'm don lemon. thanks for watching. "bower dayne prime cuts" begins right now. all right. did you maggots load the chickens? what do you need to know? i am an aficionado of eroticism. a necklace of cans around our necks. i certainly cherish those golden >> they're find it ten years later naked in the bush with like a necklace with spam cans around our necks. >> i certainly cherish those golden moments. i wish i could hear the exploding capillaries. i'm feeling every minute, every hour, every month and year of my age. no, maybe we should figure out