every story is told within a context and we'd like to see that nuanced. >> to be continued more to talk about. reverend west nger, thank you. that's it for "the lead." i'm jake tapper. right now i turn you over to wolf blitzer. he is in "the situation room." mr. blitzer? >> thanks very much. happening now, authorities are studying what they call an object of interest in the mystery of flight 370. it's a torn piece of metal found on the australian coast very far from the search area. officials are taking it seriously. we'll have the latest. with at airliner's black boxes at bottom of the ocean, malaysia calls for tracking planes in real-time. we'll show you what the live streaming technology looks like what it means for the future of emergencies. breaking news, nato allies scrambling fighter jets when russian bombers approach their airspace. while u.s. troops arrived in poland for war games as the crisis unfolds in neighboring

ukraine. i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." a potential lead in the search for flight 370. latest developments. australian authorities are looking into what they call an object of interest, a piece of sheet metal studded with rivets picked up on the coast about 1,000 miles from the search zone. stormy weather slows the aerial search for debris but the underwater hunt continues. bluefin-21 surveyed 80% of the search area and authority are considering bringing in more assets to expand that search. our analysts are standing by here in "the situation room." our correspondents are standing by around the world bringing you the kind of coverage only cnn can deliver on the hunt for flight 370. the ukrain crisis and the south korean ferry disaster. let's begin, though, with michael holmes, the very latest in perth, australia. michael? >> reporter: wolf, after weeks of frustration, a development,

but we're being cautious on this. could be a development that proves to be nothing. a piece of debris found on a beach in the southwest of australia, near a small vacation town. >> reporter: after many futile days of searching above and beneath the water, a new discovery in the hunt for flight 370. object of interest picked up near augusta on australia's southwestern coast. sources tell the associated press, after an initial analysis, the object is likely not from the plane but photos are still being examined. top australian transporter official says it looks like sheet metal with rivets, and a source in the australian defense force tells cnn, the object is kind of rectangular but torn and misshapen and appears to have a fiberglass coating on one side. after so many false leads, search officials and

investigators are cautious. >> we have not seen any verification, confirmation that is it part of mh370. >> reporter: the drone is moving on to its 11th dive, scanning last 20% of the most promising underwater area. if nothing turns up, search will move into a new phase that's being planned right now. >> i can confirm that in fact we are increasing the assets that are available for deep sea search. >> reporter: aircraft crews are keeping a close watch on the weather, after stormy conditions postponed their missions the past two days. ships were able to continue combing the ocean surface in choppy seas. >> australia will not rest until we have done everything we humanly can to get to the bottom of this mystery. >> reporter: the malaysia cabinet approved appointment of an international investigation team to look into why the plane vanished. names of the members will be revealed next week.

but malaysian officials have not released their problem report on the flight of 370. >> as i have said since the beginning, we have nothing to hide. >> reporter: and saying, again, that according to the associated press, quoting the chief transport official here in australia, initial inspection of that object doesn't lead to them to believe it is from mh370, they are still investigating, though. that object kept three hours' drive from here in perth and the police guard, while they continue to work out whether this is something or just another false lead. wolf? >> we should know fairly soon. michael holms in perth, thank you. let's discuss ---i joining us david soucie and former ntsb peter goelz and tom fuentes. peter, what are you hearing? you're a former managing

director at ntsb. >> i'm told we should not get very excited about it it looks more like interior panel from a refrigerated container. it does have rivet lines but these are not aviation rivets, it's not a structural piece. it's -- afraid it's another false -- false hope. >> they have been taking it seriously, called it an object of interest, they are flying it all over the place to labs. looking carefully at it, peter. >> they are, indeed. they're obligated to do that. with any piece of wreckage that could possibly come from the airline. but i think the initial reports are this is not going to turn out. >> david if it's nothing, if it's just junk picked up, another false lead, where does that leave everyone right now? >> well, right back where we started, wolf. in fact, each time there is one of these leads and goes nowhere, it's just that much more painful for these families. but the one thing that does do

bring to light how to identify aircraft parts, whether it's got the zinc chromate on the inside, whether the paint on the outside, aluminum versus steel, these are basic things that can be done in the field as soon as they look at it, and perhaps not waste as much time if they can do training on people at the scene to do basic investigative work, there -- these leads might be stopped sooner. but as peter said, they have to go through with every investigative lead they have. >> wow you'd think, tom, before they say they have an object of interest, they're studying it, bringing it to a lab in perth, they would go through all of the investigations. why raise hopes for the family whose have suffered so much if they're not 100% sure that it's the real deal? >> i agree with you, wolf. i think they're trying to show they're being diligent as possible, that the search is exhaustive and they'll check every possible thing, no matter whether it's looks like a part or not.

you're right, it raises hopes, keep raising the hopes and dashing the hopes later when it turns out to be negative. >> these families, peter, you've worked withthese families in other investigations of aviation disasters are suffering. listen to steven, a family member of one on board, his mom who he loves very much he was on cnn earlier today. listen to what he said. >> they must have covered up something and want to hide something. some of the questions are totally not confidential, it is just a fact, it is like the number, i don't know how it could influence the investigation. but they just give the answer, it's just like an excuse, not an answer. >> a serial number he says, basic information, why can't they release it? >> they shouldn't release it. ntsb has a rule, if the question can be asked and answered prior to the accident it should be. and the factual -- the factuals

of this accident have been withheld from the family members in a way that has only hurt them and engendered a massive sense of mistrust. and this is something malaysians have to live with going forward. >> yeah, because, david, as you well know, i would suspect even if they were to say, you know what, this piece of metal is from the plane, most of those family members of the passengers, they wouldn't believe them anyhow given the lack of credibility and the lack of answers they've received over the past six-plus weeks. >> you're right, wolf, and that's why i keep saying it would benefit the malaysian government government to bring in a team of independent people and not just the investigative team they're talk about now, evaluate the way the investigation's going, report that as a separate entity for the security perspective -- and tom can speak to this better -- but when doing a security

investigation you need oversight, someone saying is this the right thing to be doing? they're doing the job right, they're doing it well, but is it the right thing to be doing. that's something that's missing in the zblegs davinvest >> today another example they released a report to the international civil aviation organization and turn around -- and that report has to be as brief as possible, nothing questionable in it, and yet won't release that. they're being secretive about that. every move they make they say they're doing something but will not release what it is they're doing or additional information. so they keep giving the appearance, as mr. wang just said in the interview, of hiding stuff from everybody, the families and the public. >> if they call you in, the malaysian authorities, and said, peter goez you'ren expert, you were at ntsb, help us get over this problem that we have, what

would the immediate piece of advice you give them? >> first thing i would do is open up the books and share what they have, not only with family members, but with a new team of investigators and say, this is what we got, have we missed something? this is how we have made the decisions that we've made. were they the right ones to make? i mean this is the greatest aviation mystery in history and we need to have more transparency. >> guys, stand by. we'll continue our analysis of what's going on. next, a live update on search for the airliner from one of the commanders of the operation. with flight 370's black boxes at bottom of the ocean presumably, malaysia wants airliners to get real-time tracking technology. we'll show you what that looks like and how it could make a huge difference in a future disaster. dear sun,

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back to our top story this hour. a possible lead in the hunt for flight 370, a large piece of metal washed up in south australia, far from the search area. but the search itself has been hampered by stormy weather. joining us now, kevin mcavoy of the royal new zealand air force. thanks for joining us. any new, significant developments from your perspective today? >> no, unfortunately the weather's been a major factor in the last two days, wolf. on tuesday there was only about four of the eight aircraft able to get into the search area and yesterday another three got

airborne but recalled back. tropical cyclone jet started to impact. hoping the weather's will be on the improve and another eight or nine sorties today. >> you're assuming there will be. have you heard anything definitively about the metal object of interest that washed up ashore in southern australia? >> no, i've heard nothing of anything. the reporting of the internet and papers. from what i gather the transportation safety board are assisting that. i think the initial indications whether they were that hopeful but i haven't seen anything formal yet. >> where do we go from here? assuming that the underwater search over the next few hours, a couple days at the most, leads nowhere, there's nothing found on the surface of the indian ocean, nothing washes ashore, what's your game plan? >> well, our game plan is that today's day 48, so that's nearly seven weeks of the air search.

we'll continue on as is. we've got planes to continue for the rest of the month and into the following month. we're prepared for a long haul. tomorrow, the equivalent of your memorial day that won't stop the crews. they'll be doing the missions the same as if it was a normal day. for us, it's business as usual. focused on the outcome, making sure we achieve the result we're after. >> i hear you saying at least through the end of the month, your role in the aerial search, new zealand's air force, will continue? >> yeah. we haven't been told otherwise, wolf, so at this stage we are prepared to continue on as long as the government wants us to be there. and the indications that we're planning for is that it will be into next month. if we get advised any earlier we're no longer required that will change the game plan. the plan at the moment is we'll continue on as is.

part of the national -- international contribution, i think all of the nations are keen that we started this together as a team and that we'll finish this together as a team. we're just business as usual. crews are motivated, focused and prepared for another flight. >> good luck, the royal new zealand air force. thanks for joining us. cnn meteorologist jennifer grey watching weather conditions in the search area. joining us with a closer look. what can you tell us, jennifer? >> it looks like the weather will be improving over the next 24 to 48 hours. we've had remnants of a tropical cyclone, it's blown through the area. it's created strong winds, roughed up the seas and created wells. this is that surface search and that's where they're getting planes out there, so cloud cover's big deal and with the underwater search, conditions of the seas, that's a big deal for those folks weep need the

weather to improve. it looks like, as we go forward in time, it will. that is positive news. looking at the winds. over the next couple of days wind should back off a bit. we've had winds anywhere from 30 to 40 miles per hour, which makes conditions very, very dangerous. but over the next 48 hours they should back off a little bit as well. we should start to see winds, more of 10 to 20-mile-per-hour range, maybe 20 to 25, which seems like a lot but in that area it's actually pretty decent. over the next 48 hours conditions should definitely improve. >> thanks very much. at least the weather will be improving. let's turn now to cnn analyst rob mccallum and expert and expedition leader with the founder and chairman of hydroid manufacturer of the underwater device which found air france 447. chris, let's talk about that device that's called the remus 6,000, is it time that be

brought into the mission? >> well, i wouldn't be the one to make that call, sir. i think it's a decision that has to be made by the people who are running the search. there's really two parts to the problem. one is deciding where to search, the other one is how to search the area that they've decided to search. that's where our expertise comes from. find the area to search, then we take over. >> tell us about the remus 6,000, presumably if it were brought in, what could it do, for example, that the bluefin-21 can't do? >> well, i wouldn't compare the two. i think the main focus that the -- that these systems offer is maturity. they've been in the field and operating for over a decade. i think equivalently been around the world four, five times from now. the other aspect, robots work well together. our systems work cooperatively with i've other. on typical missions like flight

447, three vehicles in the water at one time. thisr triples productivity and allows you to have systems to work cooperatively together to increase the effectiveness of the search that's going on. >> does that make sense, rob, to bring in other equipment, and you'd do it simultaneously, bluefin-21, remus 6,000, presumably other equipment brought in as well? >> there is. it's a question of what it is you're trying to achieve. if you're trying to achieve a very detailed analysis of a small area, as we are with the pinger locations, then an auv with a short range but high resolution sonar package is the way to go. but if the idea is to go more strategic and investigate the entire aircraft flight path maybe 15 miles or so either side, you need a more strategic tool and a deep towed sonar can provide large range indeed, at the expense of resolution, is

probably a more appropriate tool. >> christopher, if the search area that's now being thoroughly examined, 80% of it apparently has been examined by the bluefin-21, comes up with nothing, what would you recommend? >> i would recommend that, well, first of all, go back and do a systemic study of all of the information that's available. and like they did in flight 447. then pick key areas where once you've refined results to allow you to focus on where you should search. i think that's the real area to work with. any system that you go out and try to did a wide scale search has to be focused in a specific area to be effective. you can't simply go out and search the areas that we're talking about with even towed systems because the towed systems are, in these depths, can only travel at one square nautical mile per hour. and the remus 60000 designed to

triple that productivity. so the scale of these systems -- there's a scale of the problem such that you need to go back and look at everything that you know about the situation and then pick where you want to work. >> are you convinced, rob, there are -- they are even looking in the right area? >> you know, i think it's very important that we go back and re rer reannize all of the data. this is the time we sit down with a blank sheet, if you like, and make sure we've not take on too many assumptions and verify all assumptions that have been made. any search, the minister was talking the other day about a search along the flight path, is still very large. 11,000 square miles. our equipment and search around 150 square miles a day. that's still a two-month job. it's a vast amount of ohhen. rob, christopher, guys, thanks very much. coming up --

with the airliner's black boxes we assume at bottom of the ocean, malaysia calls for tracking planes real-time. how that technology could make a huge difference. nato allies scrambling fighter jets. all of this coming as u.s. troops arrive in poland for war games as the crisis unfolds in ukrain. stay with us, you're in "the situation room." quiet! mom has a headache! had a headache! but now, i& don't. excedrin is fast. in fact for some, relief starts in just 15 minutes. excedrin. headache. gone.

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but that would require wifi. switch to comcast business internet and get two wifi networks included. comcast business built for business. about a proposal by malaysian authorities recommending commercial airlines tracked in real-time following flight 370's disappearance. brian todd is taking a closer look how this technology will work. >> we can stream movies on the laptops, music instantly on phone but live streaming of data is used on a few commercial airliners. key players in this case might have injected new momentum to change all of that. >> reporter: the black boxes are as elusive as its wreckage. inside them, the cockpit voice

and flight data recorders that could unlock the mystery. new momentum for the idea to avoid having to recover black boxes. cnn has learned malaysian authorities recommended to international regulators that commercial aircraft should be tracked in real-time. is it time for that? are these obsolete? >> i feel a few people today in the world after the malaysian air crash who wouldn't say yes. this is old technology. >> reporter: now the ntsb is reviewing new technology for airliners to live stream flight data back to the ground as they fly. one challenge, the ntsb sees too many planes transmitting too much information. >> you only can have so much bandwidth, so much ability to receive data, transmit data, so you're looking for what is the most important information. >> reporter: but two canadian companies have developed real-time streaming that bounces off satellites. hardware look like this installed in the plane. as the jet is flying on the right, the operators on the

ground see information on the left, like air speed, altitude, location, in real-time. but it doesn't transmit all of the time. >> only activated when a specific set of circumstances occur that are predefined. >> reporter: predefined by the airline, like the plane deviating from the flight path, a pitch or roll. these systems don't send back the voice recordings. >> we have a cultural problem. they do not want big brother in the cockpit. >> reporter: the faa doesn't require american carriers to outfit jets with live streaming. only a few u.s.-based airlines carry them. they won't say which ones. one aren't more airlines using more live streaming. >> it's cost. they don't want to put anything else in the aircraft they can't use and don't want to have anything that costs more fuel. >> the systems are not cheap. if malaysia airlines had had

live streaming on that plane, we would at least have some answers right now. michael goldfarb says the case is a game changer in live streaming. >> another alternative to the black boxes that exist right now. >> right. a deployable recorder, it's a box that would automatically eject from a plane if it's in distress and land separately in the water or on the ground. those exist in some military planes. >> military planes. >> right. >> maybe they should do it in commercial airliners as well. they've got ideas, technology's there. they haven't done it yet. >> right. >> thanks very much. let's discuss what brian reported. joining us clive irving and aviation analyst, form. ntsb managing director peter goelz and also tom fuentes. you wrote a scathing article

saying the black box technology that exists on most airliners is so outdated, you write, disgracefully, they're a parallel universe, talk is new revenue streams, not data streams. what's the biggest disgrace out there now? why are you so angry? >> well, i'm angry because we've had five years in which to have learned this lesson after air france 447. i'd like to say, we shouldn't have waited for the malaysians to point out this needs to be done. it was obvious long ago it needed to be done. it was obvious that the technology was there. i think behind this, there's a simple question, who is going to get this done? where do we turn to get action on this? and i'm reminded when i look at the international civil aviation organize, the object of my anger, in my piece today in the daily beast, this is a b bureaucra bureaucracy. no one in the agency thinks they're capable of moving fast

on anything and spend most of time holding seminars and junkets. i'm reminded of something winston church hill said. he said, no mistake activity for action. what we need here is action. we know the technology's there. we know the technology is essential in order to solve this problem. another thing i'd like to say about this, as a background atmosphere to the story, aviation industry itself seems to be remarkably impervious to the degree of public concern over this. they seem to be not saying anything, you were talking earlier about lack of transparency. there's a lack of response to public concerns about this. i think that when we look at the icao, they seem to be paralyzed, they've done nothing for five years. various members of the industry seem to be saying, well, yes, it needs to be done but no one's offering a timetable for doing it or a sensible program for doing it. we're on the fringe of really

important technical change in the way aircraft navigate in the future. we'll move from radar based system, because radars don't reach into the oceans to a satellite based system where we have total satellite coverage of the globe. >> so let me get peter goals to weigh in on that. a lot of the airlines, developing all of the equipment they need to get wi-fi for passengers, tv for passengers but it's sort of -- technology, there's a company in toront that builds black boxes with live streaming but they don't use it. it doesn't make any sense to me. >> the carriers are not going to put it in unless forced and they are both right. they cannot act -- >> international civil aviation organization. >> they cannot act. to top it off we don't have an official representative there. that post is gone unfilled since december. so when they meet next month, we won't have anyone --

>> the united states doesn't have an ambassador there? >> the united states does not have an ambassador. >> the reason? >> we appointed somebody in february, senate has not acted on it, there's concerns he won't be acted on in the near future. >> you think this current mystery involving this flight is going to spark the international aviation community, tom to do something about this? >> i don't know. we see so many other issues unrelated to aviation that should spark government action and the pun lick outcry should demand it and things don't happen. this seem to be another area. the thing you mentioned technologically, areas where the area lines charge you to watch a movie or have the system upgraded or all of that, those are extra service charges now on an airline. it astounds me. this aircraft cost $260 million brand new but don't want to spend $100,000 more, which is nothing, compared to the whole cost to put a system in like this that would be so effective

and save tens of millions of dollars in searches later. >> one of the arguments against it, clive, you've heard this argument, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, but i'll let you react to it, is that you know it would be bad to be streaming too much information. it could would be confusing. >> you have a priority system. you don't have to stream every aircraft. many aircraft fly in they were to crash, the wreck would be instantly retrievable. those flights like this one, which are going over oceans and in areas where there's no other way of tracking them. that seems to me a sensible way to phase in eventually everything can be covered but the priority, and i agree with what previous speaker have said, it's really outrageous these are the same people providing entertainment system for the

cabin, the same satellite systems are the same people who can provide the pipes through which this information can be transmitted from the plane. so they've got a double interest. they can grow fat on the income from the services, internet services they provide from the cabin and also see a lucrative market ahead for themselves in providing live streaming of essential data. there's pressure for them but boeing sits on its hands and says nothing, the industry says nothing and the icao is sitting on their hands saying nothing. >> peter will what will it take to make the changes. >> the faa and united states ought to act first. we ought to mandate it, for as mr. irving said, for our what we call etops aircraft, aircraft that are certified to fly over open ocean and the systems ought to be put in place and we ought to have a very short time frame of a year, two years at the most and just start it out and do it. we have been the leader in

aviation. we need to lead now. >> you agree, tom? >> absolutely, yes. >> but you understand the domestic bureaucracy and international bureaucracy, the flicks of this, the various interest, business interests, the plane manufacturers, the airline companies, the pilot unions and all of that, is it doable? >> it's difficult. you mentioned why. >> because of all of the disparities? >> contactually. >> you think anything will be done out of this or more experience five years from now where a plane will simply disappear? >> no, it's outrageous. there is public pressure on this and i think that should be translated closely to political pressure. there should be political actions, too. i think it's a very good idea for the united states to take the lead on this because in every technical sense the united states is the leader in aviation, it has authority, technology, and it has the potential voice to do it. and it's no good waiting for

people in montreal to act because they want. >> that's where the international civil aviation organization is. thanks to you. you will both be back. still ahead, more on the so-called object of interest in the search for flight 370. what exactly is it that washed up on a remote australian beach. breaking news. nato member jets scrambling in response to russian bombers. a troubling, new twist in the crisis in ukrain? cnn's kyung lah on a boat outside the search area in the ferry disaster in south korea.

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breaking news we're following. tensions with russia on the brink right now. nato member jetted scrambling after two russian bombers came pretty close to their airspace. this, as the crisis in ukrain is boiling over with the first of what's being called a persistent presence of u.s. troops arriving in the region, all part of a massive show of force against russia. our chief national security correspondent jim sciutto's working all aspects of this story for us. he's joining us now with the latest. it's getting dramatic. >> no question. with the tensions in ukrain, defense officials tell me they're watching interactions like this. today three nato allied scrambling jets and escorting two russian bombers out of the airspace away from the airspace, uk, denmark, holland working together. the russian flights predate the ukrain crisis, they happened

several times a year, both in europe and along american airspace as well off the coast of alaska, last one there april 2nd. intended to test air defenses and send a message. as the british ministry of defense said events have increased awareness of military activity and this as the west responds with military moves of its own. >> reporter: a scene reminiscent of the cole war. u.s. troops landing in eastern europe to counter the threat from russia. paratroopers from the 173rd airborne the first of 600 soldiers to deploy for exercises in poland, latvia, lithuania, estonia, all nato allies, all nervous about where russia could strike next. and it could be here. tens of thousands of russian troops conducting their own exercises today across the border from eastern ukrain. russian foreign minister lavrov

appeared to lay the rhetorical groundwork for russia to invade, saying russian citizens in ukrain are under threat. >> i don't see any other way but to respond in full accordance with international law. russian citizens being attacked is an attack against the russian federation. >> reporter: comments sparked a sharp rebuttal from washington. >> many of the claims he made in his interview are ludicrous and they're not based in fact of what is happening on the ground. >> reporter: on the ground in ukrain the situation is becoming more violent. the body of a ukrainian politician found after torture and drowning by militants. american, a journalist for vice news, report have appeared on cnn, taken hostage, also by pro-russian militants. the state department called on russia to use its influence with the groups to secure the immediate and safe release of all hostages. the u.s. will likely impose a

new round of economic sanctions on russia before the end of the week, targeting more senior russian leaders and possibly a state bank. that strategy so far has failed to deter russian military action. what is the cost that will be too much for russia to bear to continue this kind of military action inside ukrain? >> losing face for him is going to be a cost too much to bear. losing that sense of new strength of the new russian federation under the leadership of vladimir putin, that is where he's at right now. >> reporter: the military operations at the kiev government promised to push those pro-russian militants out of cities in the east have gotten off to a halting start, at best. nonlethal aid to the ukrainian military, particularly intelligence sharing, intended to help ukrainian forces do a more convincing job. some lawmakers, including congressman rogers, pushing for further steps including training the ukrainian military and, wocwolf republican lawmakers calling for

lethal aid but that's not on the table for the obama administration. one more point about the scrambled jets. they're watching not so much the number of types that russian planes buzz, whether it's european or american airspace, but their behavior when they do it, are they more combative, aggressive, that's what they're looking for in the next weeks and months. >> when you think about it, a few months ago u.s./russian relations seemed to be rosy and now back to the days of the cold war. >> those bombers, 1952 era russian bombers. so many of these things a throwback to the cold war. >> hard to believe. ahead at the top of the hour, latest on the search for malaysia flight 370. getting new information. live off the coast of south korea at the scene of the ferry disaster. cnn's kyung lah is there, standing by live. she has new information. guy: hey captain obvious, watch this!

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the search for survivors of that sunken ferry off the coast of south korea pushing ahead this hour despite fading hope anyone will be found alive. the rising death toll now stands at 159 people. another 143 remain missing. and authorities now say divers haven't found any air pockets inside the ship. cnn's kyung lah is on a boat just outside the search area. she's joining us now live with the latest details. what are you learning, kyung? >> reporter: well, wolf, even

with this devastating news for the families that there are no pockets, you know, if there are no air pockets, very unlikely that there are any survivors. we're still seeing a lot of activity here at the search site. if you look over my left should shoulder, you can see where that gray military vessel is. right there behind that vessel where you see the lights, that's where the sunken ferry is. about 65 feet below those lights is where divers have been going in. about 30 minutes ago, we did see the very first of the divers slip under the sea of the yellow sea and begin the arduous search. if you look further to the left, these orange boats that you're looking at, going back and forth, that's where the divers pop up. sometimes they come up with bodies. sometimes they come up just for a rest. so this is very much still a search operation. a lot of activity here. as far as any additional updates that we've gotten, how many bodies they've been pulling out

overnight, we don't have very much new, in large part because it's so difficult to search. you may recall, wolf, that when we last spoke, this water is very murky. it has been very difficult to find anything. divers using their hands to feel their way through the vessel. wolf? >> what's the latest on the criminal investigation? >> reporter: well, that's really where we've been seeing a lot of activity. they've been raiding the offices of the owner of the shipping company. they've also raided his home. there have been a number of investigations into the agencies that oversee the safety of the shipping company. so a larger and widening dragnet every single day, wolf. >> kyung lah reporting for us from south korea. she'll be joining us again next hour. coming up at the top of the hour, we have breaking new details in the search for malaysia flight 370. dozens of suspected terrorists meanwhile are reported killed. was al qaeda's top bombmaker among them? new information on that report as well.

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happening now, breaking news in the search for flight 370. experts have now studied photos of the metal fragment that washed ashore. was it a piece of the missing plane? we're now learning what they found. plus, new information about al qaeda's chief bombmaker and whether he may have been killed in a massive attack involving the united states. u.s. and saudi officials are sharing critical details with us. and u.s. troops land in eastern europe and allied jets scramble. tensions are russia are ratcheting higher as the ukraine conflict erupts again. we want to welcome our viewers in the united states and around the world. i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." >> this is cnn breaking news. >> right now we're getting

official word from flight 370 investigators on that so-called object of interest that was found on the australian coast and whether it's linked to the missing plane. we're also watching the weather. it may threaten search crews heading out this hour. we have our team of experts here in "the situation room." they're getting ready to break down all of the new developments along with our correspondents and analysts in the field. first let's go to cnn's miguel marquez in augusta, australia, near the area where that metal fragment was found. what's the latest, miguel? >> reporter: well, the latest is unfortunately this is going to come as a shock to folks here that it is not related to mh370 as far as officials can tell. they have looked over this pictures, and they have sent that item, say police, all the way up to perth. the interest was so strong that this might be part of that plane. it was found along the beach here in the sort of south

australia town known for its surfing and its wine, and it was held on for a couple of days according to local reporting. this was a large piece of metal attached to some either plastic or fiberglass by rivets. it was held on to for a couple of days, taken to a local airport here. it appeared that it might be part of mh370. so they took every precaution. we also even understand that an area of the beach here was blocked off by investigators so they could look through it to see if whether or not there might be any other evidence from mh370. we'll go check that out again today. but right now that piece of metal that seemed promising is not part of it. and people here are standing down. but certainly the entire country alert for anything that might be part of the missing plane. wolf? >> certainly are. miguel marquez in australia for us, thank you. let's get more now on the search for the missing plane beneath the sea and on the surface, our justice correspondent pamela brown is following this part of the story. pam? >> investigators involved in the

search efforts making it clear new underwater assets may be brought in as the search in the targeted zone wraps up soon. and while the bluefin hasn't found anything yet, australian officials say they will stay committed to finding this plane for as long as it takes. >> reporter: the subsea search of the six-mile radius area by the bluefin, considered the most likely crash site for flight 370 is more than 80% complete as investigators consider bringing in more assets to help under water, the air search hits a snag. for the second day in a row, bad weather grounded planes looking for floating debris. today the malaysian government appointed a formal team to determine the cause of the accident. >> it is imperative for the government to form an independent team of investigators, which is not only competent and transparent but also highly credible. as i've said since the beginning, we have nothing to hide. >> reporter: but malaysian authorities have chosen not to make public a preliminary report

of facts submitted to the international civil aviation organization. >> i have not made a decision yet whether to release it to the media or the public. >> reporter: as the search continues, australia's prime minister says investigators will not give up. >> we haven't found anything yet in the area that we're searching, but the point i make is that australia will not rest until we have done everything we humanly can to get to the bottom of this mystery. >> and based on their current calculations, investigators say they have a number of search areas to explore. like expanding the search from where they are now or shifting to another area where a ping was detected. wolf? >> i want to continue this conversation. pamela brown is here along with our cnn aviation analyst, peter goles, tom fuentes and jeffrey thomas, the editor in chief of

airlin airlinerratings.com. thanks to all of you for joining us. i guess we shouldn't be surprised this piece of metal turned out to be not related to the plane. >> no, it was disappointing but not a surprise. and i think if anyone experienced it looked at the piece right off the bat, they would have been skeptical of it. >> it shouldn't take very long to see if it's part of a plane or part of a ship or part of something else. it's just a piece of junk. it took for hours and hours and hours, and there were these public statements, tom, suggesting, you know, this is something of interest. we've got to watch it. we're sending it to perth to a lab. it gave it the credibility that it obviously didn't deserve. >> no, that's true. and i don't understand why they couldn't have had experts there, you know, more quickly to look at that and discount it because it would be so important to determine if it was a piece of the aircraft and where that would lead to the rest of the air search and moving the air search if it was. >> well, let me go to jeffrey. he's out in australia. jeffrey, even if it turned out to be nothing, you get a piece of metal like this, and you have

to examine it. you have to share it with experts to make sure it isn't from the plane. but do you have to say we're looking at this this chose lose? we all want transparency. i'm thinking of the families. their hopes go up, and then they go down. >> wolf, it's a very sensitive issue. however, i've got to say when we first heard about it, which was 12, 14, 15 hours ago, as soon as we heard, we spoke to the folks at the atsb in canberra. they said they had just received photographs. the photographs were sent across to canberra fairly quickly. they were already raising doubts last night, saying we're interested, but we're skeptical. one of the problems is with the photographs that were sent was there was no scale to them. so they didn't have that dimension. and of course, unfortunately, they didn't have the piece of metal in their hands.

i would imagine the experts in canberra would have discounted it straight away, had they had the piece of metal in their hands. >> pamela, you reported that the malaysians now are going to create an investigatory committee to look into this. what's taking so long? >> well, this was an expected step in the process, wolf, similar to what would happen in the u.s. if there was a crash here, a special committee would investigate the cause of the accident. important to sort of specify here, they're not looking into the criminal side of things. the police in malaysia are still taking a lead on that. the fbi in a support role with that effort. >> you would have thought that they would create a committee to look into this immediately. >> yeah, about 48 hours after the accident. >> right. >> the issue here is we still don't know who's on the committee. you know, they said they're going to announce it. it's like the factual report. where is it? why the secrecy at this stage? >> what would you want to see emerge from this investigation from this committee report? >> well, information specifically starting at the very beginning. you know, we have all this

conflicting information about the radars. did that plane make the turn? did it go back across the island of -- or the peninsula of malaysia? did it make that routing around indonesia as they claim, or did it go right past indonesia without the indonesians noticing that it crossed their country? i mean, those are all, you know, facts that are of the most importance in this because it would determine how far that plane could go with the amount of fuel it had. that plane could have made it to antarctica if it had crossed directly over indonesia, and that looped up and around indonesia like they're claiming it did. so there's so much technical information that they've never released. all these back-channel sources have put out run rumor after another for 47 straight days. so the idea of having more technical analysis by key experts and then being able to put information out publicly that the public should know and the families should know. all of this has been missing. >> go ahead, pamela. >> and just to sort of piggyback on what tom was saying, the

family a while back had submitted those questions. i believe 26 questions to be answered, and so far they haven't received the answers. and i think it's clearly not sitting well with them that this fact-finding report submitted to the civil aviation organization isn't being released to the public yet. >> so much of the search, geoffrey, is based on that inmarsat data that was apparently made available to investigators but not to the public. the families want to see that data because they simply don't believe it to be accurate. inmarsat isn't releasing it publicly for what, proprietary reasons? is that their explanation? >> that's my understanding, wolf. and we can understand, there's obviously commercial reasons. however, there's so much more information as the other panelists have suggested that can be released. and i think the malaysians absolutely need to release every single piece of factual information they can as soon as

possible because the longer we go on as a mystery, the more the doubts are about the credibility of what they're doing. >> peter, if you were in charge of this investigation, i've asked you this before, what would you be doing? what would you have done differently than the investigators are doing now? >> well, i think i would have started the whole show differently. and i would have formed working groups on radar, operations, human factors and had periodic reports, factual reports, that all of the participants had signed off on so that it wasn't just the malaysians saying this is the radar data, but it was the malaysians, the chinese, the u.s., the australians and the new zealanders saying, this is our best understanding of what happened. without that, there simply has been a profound lack of credibility. >> is there any way you can force inmarsat, tom, you're a former fbi assistant director, to release that information? >> no, i don't think you can at this point. i mean, you could release it to

the investigators, but force them to publicly release information, i don't think. >> you can't do that. >> i don't think so. >> no. and if you were looking at this investigation, you're as frustrated as anyone. peter, are you convinced that they're looking in the right area right now? >> i think they're looking in generally the right area, but i think there were so many suppositions made. for instance, as tom mentioned, did the plane actually circle around the island of indonesia, or did it cross it? and that's critical. >> geoffrey, do you think they're looking in the right area? are you convinced they are looking in the right area? >> look, i am, after talking to various officials off the record, yes, i am convinced they are looking in the right area. i believe there's more information -- quite a bit more information that they are using to put this analysis together. obviously, we would all love to know what that is, particularly the element of how this aeroplane either crossed or went around indonesia. i think that's very important.

but, you know, in the vacuum of real information, there's always going to be an element of doubt. >> there certainly is. geoffrey, thomas, thanks very much. pam, tom, peter, guys, thanks very much to you as well. another major story we're working here in "the situation room" right now. sources telling cnn saudi arabia is conducting dna tests on a body that could be that of the notorious militant known as the bombmaker, the man behind some of al qaeda's most disturbing explosives. was ibrahim al nasiri among dozens of militants in yemen? i spoke about that earlier today with the chairman of the house intelligence committee, congressman mike rogers. >> i think it's prudent to be cautious. we'll know the right answer, if this is, in fact, al seri, this is a big moment in disrupting al qaeda in the arabian peninsula operations of which we know specifically are targeted to the

united states. >> now, without knowing whether or not he was killed, can you at least confirm he was targeted? >> well, i can't talk about a specific operation, but i can tell you that the bombmaker has been someone of interest for our counterterrorism efforts and has been on the high-priority list to take off the battlefield. >> i'll take that as a confirmation, although you're not confirming it officially. let's get more now from cnn's mohammed jamjoom. he's reported extensively from inside yemen. peter bergen, our terrorism analyst, is with us as well. mo m mohammed, what's the latest you're hearing? u.s. officials still skeptical. what are you hearing? >> still a lot of questions, but saudi officials telling me today, commenting publicly for the first time that the body of the saudi militant who's linked

to aqap who was killed in this firefight with yemeni commandos on sunday night that that body was transported to saudi arabia and that that that's where the dna tests are actually happening. the saudi government officials would not comment as to whether they believed it was him, but they did tell me this could very well be a high-ranking, top-tier saudi aqap target. clearly, he fits that description. but nobody is saying yet because the dna tests could take a couple of days, could take a couple of weeks. a lot of the saudis i've been speaking with privately, they hope it's him, but again, they're not ready to make that comment just yet. >> peter, for the saudis, this is pretty personal given his record not only trying to attack the united states, but going after high-ranking saudi officials. >> indeed. i mean, he really came to public attention when he tried to kill the now minister of interior. he sent his mothbrother.

it didn't succeed. yes, for the saudis, this is very personal. you know, what we just heard is, you know, pretty much every leader of al qaeda in the arabian peninsula is a saudi. if it's a high-ranking aqap person, it could also be the leader of the group or the number two in the group as well as this guy, al siri. there are quite a few possibilities. >> and 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were saudis. barbara, you broke the story for all of us almost a week or so ago, the analysis of the video that we saw here on cnn thanks to you, the drone strikes, the combined u.s./yemeni military operation. what's the latest you're hering from your sources? >> reporter: well, let's go right to that firefight on the road where this saudi was killed and the question rising about whether it was ibrahim al siri,

the bombmaker. it was not a drone attack by the cia. it was a joint u.s. military and yemeni operation. u.s. troops, u.s. special forces, were there. some of the most covert u.s. special forces. their standard practice, they would look at every face on every dead body right then and there to try and identify them. they would have recognized al asiri if it was him. they would have recognized two of the top leaders. this is very standard practice for u.s. commandos on one of these high-value target raids. so if it does turn out to be al asiri, that's going to be pretty interesting. right now a lot of questions about whether it's really him or not wasn't particularly targeted in this raid. that's what we're hearing. about the tape, what people are really talking about now behind the scenes is what does this tape really mean over the long run?

where does it leave everybody's thinking about where al qaeda in yemen is right now, where their strengths are, what the threat is that they pose. there's a lot of chatter that yemeni security forces are very watchful right now. they expect some kind of retaliation from al qaeda in yemen. and there is always the very dire prospect of an attack against the u.s. embassy. u.s. officials will tell you that, for al qaeda, is their number one target in yemen. it is very heavily fortified. all of the recent plots have been disrupted. we know that because none of them have come to fruition, thank goodness. but you can be guaranteed, wolf, u.s. security officials very watchful in yemen right now. very concerned that al qaeda could make its next move. >> there are, mohammed, as you well know, you've been to yemen, other high-value targets there including the leader of al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, the number two al qaeda overall commander who's there as well.

and he was seen in that video that barbara shared with all of us. >> yeah, that's right. he's one of these people that the u.s. and yemen have wanted to get for quite some time. and the fact that he was in this video and that these leaders were looking so comfortable in this video, this is the reason, i'm told by my yemeni sources, why the u.s. and yemen decided to strike hard and strike fast this past week because this was such an embarrassment to see aqap which has really been silent in the last year, in the last few days as well, to come out and put out this video in which they seem to be thumbing their noses to say hey, we're here, we're comfortable, we'll do what we want and you can't do anything about it. the u.s. and yemen said to, we are going to do something about it. there are actual yemeni boots on the ground, there are u.s. covert forces helping them, going into provinces that these people don't usually go into because they are such hotbeds of militancy. i've tried to go into some of them myself even with military

escorts. it's been too dangerous in the past. so the fact that they're there, they're carrying out these operations trying to degrade their capabilities, going after their camps, that is very significant. it's a strong message being sent. they are going to try to actually vanquish aqap. >> i think it's fair to say, peter, that the u.s. intelligence community, the director of national intelligence, secretary of defense, they believe -- correct me if i'm wrong -- there are more al qaeda militants, elements, terrorists, whatever you want to call them in yemen right now than there are in afghanistan. >> well, we've heard in the past when panetta was cia director, there were 100 members. just in that videotape alone which barbara showed last week, you see more than 100 members of al qaeda. certainly we're looking at several hundred people who are affiliated with this movement in yemen. they have lost ground in the past. in 2011, 2012, they controlled a lot of territory in southern yemen. you know, this video indicates they feel comfortable in certain

areas. they may feel less comfortable this week after these series of drone strikes and yemeni/american operations. we'll see. >> peter bergen, mohamed jam june, barbamohamed jamjoon. details of nato jets scrambling in response to russian bombers. and more on the breaking news in the search for flight 370. what officials are now saying about what was being called an object of interest. i'm j-a-n-e and i have copd. i'm d-a-v-e and i have copd. i'm k-a-t-e and i have copd, but i don't want my breathing problems to get in the way my volunteering. that's why i asked my doctor about b-r-e-o. once-daily breo ellipta helps increase airflow from the lungs for a full 24 hours. and breo helps reduce symptom flare-ups that last several days

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"cross fire" won't be seen

tonight so we can bring you malaysian flight 370. the rising tensions between russia and the west. several nato member nation s today scrambled jets at russian warplanes came uncomfortably close to their airspace. all this as u.s. soldiers deploy in eastern europe to send a message to moscow about the conflict in ukraine. the first wave of u.s. army paratroopers landed in poland for war games. tens of thousands of russian troops are flexing their muscle, holding training exercises across the border. russia's foreign minister says his country will respond in his interests are attacked. he's accusing the united states of, quote, running the show there. let's get to the situation on the ground in eastern ukraine. right now our senior international correspondent arwa damon is joining us live from donetsk where the ukraine government is targeting pro-y h pro-russian militants.

arwa, i know it's a very tense situation. what is the latest you're seeing there on the ground? >> reporter: well, around donetsk, there most certainly has been a briefing up of the checkpoints, police and security services. but the despite the fact that kiev has said it is going to be relaunching this antiterrorism operation in four cities across eastern ukraine, we haven't really seen any massive military movement. and one must also remember that when they initially launched this operation, the ukrainian military was absolutely humiliated. the pro-russian protesters very well dug into these various buildings. they're not going anywhere, or so they say. and they do believe that if there is any sort of assault launched against them, they will eventually be able to turn to russia for help. many of them have already put out various calls for the russians to come in and protect them. and so we're really seeing an escalation of the situation at this point despite the fact that there was that agreement that was come to in geneva rather than any sort of easing of tensions, wolf. >> ukraine's interior minister

says one ukrainian politician not only found dead, but he was found dead after being tortured and drowned. so what's the latest on that? because that's clearly escalating tensions. >> reporter: he was found in the river close to slaviansk. his body had seemingly been mutilated. he had been weighed down by sandbags. his one of two bodies found. the second one still remains unidentified. he had gone missing after a rally on the 17th where he got into an argument with some of the pro-russian protesters. both sides are blaming each other for this. the ukrainian government, as you said, blaming the pro-russian protesters, but the self-proclaimed mayor of slaviansk saying no, it was not us. he was never detained by my people, all the results of the ukrainian nationalists. you once again have this family's tragedy caught up in

this blame game happening between both sides, wolf. >> arwa damon in eastern ukraine. arwa, be careful over there. she's doing excellent reporting, as she always does. let's bring in the former u.s. ambassador to nato, kurt volcker, joining us live right now. what's your take on this? a politician is found tortured, drowned, obviously dead. what does this do to this crisis, an incident like that? >> well, i think it is intended by the russians who i believe committed this to try to provoke ukraine to respond in order for them to justify a more russian response. very similar to what we saw in georgia in 2008 where the russians were continually probing and poking, trying to get georgia to respond. and then when they did, they went in massively. i think the russians are poised to do the same thing in ukraine and trying to provoke these kinds of incidents. >> and the russians still control those parts of georgia to this very day. i assume putin simply thought,

you know, if he could get away with it in georgia, why not get away with it in ukraine? >> well, exactly right. and crimea is one where he has always had a strong interest because of the russian naval presence. and even back in 2008 before he invaded georgia, he commented that ukraine was a put-together country, that these territories were only recently added. it was artificial and seemingly justifying some efforts to regain territory inside ukraine, and i think we're seeing that play out today. >> if you were still the u.s. ambassador to nato, what would you be recommending nato to do right now? >> right. first off, i think what nato is doing is on the right track in one respect. it is providing forces to reassure allies that we will defend their territory if it comes to that. this is the baltic states. it's poland, romania, bulgaria. that's nato's first job is self-defense, and we have some very worried allies on russia's border now. putting the effort there to make sure that we have credible

collective defense is job number one. the second thing, though, is the ability to project power and to try to defuse crises. and that requires a bit of assistance and support to ukraine to cause russia to think twice. what russia is doing now is it's taking this territory, it's using special forces on the ground to organize the protesters. it's got masked forces on the other side of the border ready to come in. and it doesn't see any military pushback on this. and if it's ukraine alone, then it feels it can overrun those ukrainian forces. so it is very well poised to use military force here. nato -- and this is europe primarily but also the united states -- is unwilling to use military force to stop this. and i think russia sees that. i think what is incumbent upon nato in terms of power projection, put some more forces on the table, provide direct assistance to the ukrainians in terms of training and tactics and equipment and try to increase the uncertainty russia feels about what kind of reaction it might get from europe. >> i spoke earlier in the day,

mr. ambassador, with mike rogers. he's the chairman of the house intelligence committee. i pointed out, look, the nato allies, there's article 5 of the nato allies, the treaty basically which says you attack one nato ally, whether it's poland or estonia or latvia, romania, any of those countries you mentioned, you're in effect attacking all of the nato allies including the united states. to me it's like incomprehensible that russia, under putin, would do something like that, knowing what the response would be. but listen to what mike rogers told me. >> we're not dealing with somebody who has the same rational thought process that we may have thought even two years ago. i think all the indicators led putin to believe he could be more bold, he can be more aggressive. there's just not a lot that nato and the u.s. can do. again, you want to push this, you don't want to push it too far. i think this is a good step by the administration to show that we will back our nato countries.

>> i know those nato allies like poland and the other countries, they're nervous, but do you really believe, mr. ambassador, that putin would order russian incursions against a nato ally, ukraine not being a member of nato, obviously? >> i think if we did not take the steps that we're taking now, he would think that maybe it's an option. i think putin doesn't have an end state in mind other than strengthening russian power and influence. and i think he has three things in mind. he has the russian communities that surround ukraine that he wants to be part of russia. he has the former soviet union states that he believes russia should have determinant influence over and then russia acting as the great power of the world. he's going to push out and try and develop all of these things and only stop where he feels pushback. we have ethnic russian communities, say, in lithuania or latvia or estonia. we see the same thing in moldova which is not a nato ally. and i think russia is going to be probing constantly to see where is there pushback and

where is there not pushback? so by taking the steps nalt t s taking, i think we are sending the right sfal to russia, don't touch nato. if we did not do that, i think he would wonder what would be the response of nato if he did have shactiome action there in >> kurt volker, ominous scenario. mr. ambassador, thank you for joining us. just ahead, cnn's kyung lah live on the water near the ferry disaster in south korea where the death toll is climbing. there she is. we'll join her live in a moment. we're learning the initial finding of what was being called an object of interest in the search for malaysian flight 370 has been determined. be a sound sleeper, or...l you a mouth breather? well, put on a breathe right strip and instantly open your nose up to 38% more than allergy medicines alone. so you can breathe and sleep.

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the large number of ships. dozens and dozens of ships here spread out through this area. it is eerily quiet. this as the news comes that the chance of finding survivors is exceptionally slim. a heartbreaking discovery aboard the sunken ferry. divers working tirelessly around the clock say they found no air dashing hopes that survivors are still trapped in the submerged hull. that comes as a blow to waiting families, holding on to the possibility someone might be found alive. searchers had been focusing on the third and fourth levels of the five-story vessel, believing many of those still missing were likely to be there. most passenger bedrooms are on the fourth level of the now upended ship. the search turned up only more bodies. in fact, for the first time, the number of dead is higher than the number missing.

boats are bringing those bodies back to grief-stricken families waiting on the shore. once hopeful, now hopeless, these korean families wait nearby in a gymnasium for they see loved ones' remains. meanwhile, the number of crew members under arrest is now up to 11 including the captain seen in this video released today, receiving treatment at a medical facility shortly after being among the first to be rescued from the doomed ship. prosecutors also said wednesday that the officers of the ferry operator were searched as was the home of the billionaire whose family appears to control the company. more than two-thirds of those on board the ferry were students on a field trip from a high school about an hour south of seoul. in a gymnasium near the school, some of the student victims' young faces stared out from photos surrounded by a huge bank

of flowers where the missing and dead have plaques with their photos and names. hundreds walk by the memorial to pay their respects. now, back here live, you're looking at the barge where the ship is about 65 feet under the water. those buoys that you see there, that marks the exact spot where the search operation is taking place, where the ship is expected to be. you can see divers also that are coming toward those buoys in orange inflatables. it is still being called a rescue operation, wolf, even though for all intents and purposes, they have moved into the recovery phase. wolf? >> kyung lah reporting. a heartbreaking story indeed. thank you. just ahead, the bluefin 21 is nearly finishing scanning the most promising search area as it has been described. authorities are talking about bringing in new resources now for the next phase of the

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welcome back to the coverage of the mystery of flight 370. malaysian officials now confirming they're likely to bring in new resources for what they're calling the next phase of the search. we're joined now by cnn safety analyst david seucy and michael kay. thanks very much for joining us. david, the current search area is based on the satellite data from inmarsat that came in, the pings that supposedly came from those one or two of those black boxes. are you convinced, david, they're searching in the right area right now? >> you know, i had been, but i'm becoming less and less as time goes on. one of the things that i'd still

like to know, though, is that 20% area that hasn't been searched yet, i suspect that that aligns -- and i know it does align with the area that's deeper than what the bluefin can handle. so i'm encouraged also to hear that they're bringing in more resources to rule that area out. but at this point, i'm just not as confident as i was before. i can't give you an answer as to why, but it's not feeling right anymore for manager. >> michael, i'll ask you the same question. given the resources that have been devoted to this search operation, they still haven't found anything, not even a small, little piece of wreckage. are you confident that they're looking at the right area? >> wolf, i think it's all we've got. it's an investigation that's lasted 47 days, and it's surrounded by mystery and controversy. i think it's all we've got. i think there's too much of a convergence of data to rule out where we're looking so quickly. as david already alluded to, we've only searched 80% of what is a relatively small area, and it's only surrounding that second ping. to take the inmarsat data which

has been crunched by some very powerful brains which led us into that area, we've then picked up four pings. and those four pings have been heard for two hours and 20 minutes. and most experts say that those pings are not from a natural resource. i think we are looking in the right area, and i don't think we should be disheartened. let's get back to where france 447. it took two years to find the black boxes there. we've been going for 47 days, and we've been going on pretty much thin air in terms of evidence. so i think we've got a lot more to go before we can start ruling out the area in its entirety. and even if we do go beyond that, we need to start looking at those assumptions on how far down the southern arc we are, and if we get nothing from that, then let's start looking at the assumptions on the northern arc. >> but on that air france disaster, michael, you're right, it took two years to find the black box. but within five days, they at least spotted some wreckage of that air france airliner. so they obviously had an idea of where they were looking, some actual concrete evidence.

>> yeah, they had the haystack within five days, wolf, you're absolutely right. and it still took them two years. we don't have a haystack. what we've been doing is unprecedented. we've been trying to bypass the haystack and go straight in for the needle. if i was angus houston, number one priority at the moment would be getting at least something that can link debris to the resting place of mh370. if only to console and, you know, for the closure of the families. so that's the important bit. debris on the surface, debris on the ocean bed or the black boxes. there's three things that we can actually look at to get this first phase of the operation, the search operation, wrapped up, which is the water. then on >> are you surprised, david, that that so-called object of interest that they spotted some 12 or 15 hours ago, the past hour they have now confirmed it turned up to be unrelated to the malaysia airliner?

>> i'm not surprised that it wasn't related, just from the initial descriptions. it didn't sound like an aircraft part. i am surprised that it took that long to rule it out as an aircraft part. it shows me that they're walking on eggshells and no one is really stepping forward and saying no, that's not, yes, it is. it's really pretty simple to rule out a part like that. it was metal. it was metallic. it was ferrous. it was ability to attach a magnet to it. so it wasn't aluminum. it had rust on it. it's nothing even like an aircraft part. like i said, i'm surprised it took that long. but it shows to me they're walking on eggshells, and they're going make sure they do everything right and left no stone unturned. >> and my vantage point, michael, and i'll let you weigh in on this. those poor families. they go through these roller coasters. they think there is something that turns out to be nothing. all of our hearts go out to them. >> yeah, would have.

i think there has been two sort of separate investigations in terms of credibility going on. the malaysians clearly didn't get off to a very good start. i think angus houston the way he has been very transparent and conducted the search operation, i think that's been very impressive. but just going back to what david said in terms of the securities, on day two and three, we had all this information coming out about satellite images and analyst images taken from p-3s which turned out to be nothing. i think then there was a recognition that that part of the world had a lot of debris. there was an absence for two weeks there has been nothing on anything that has taken, any satellite images or picture. then we get this. i would have hoped this would have turned out to be something a little more concrete, given the sensibilities that we have seen so far. >> michael kay and david soucie. coming back, north korea's kim jong un as we've never seen him before. some rare photos of his secret childhood. i'm mom at the playground and the dog park.

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long before he was a dictator, he was just a little boy. and now for the first time, pictures are showing us north korea's kim jong un as we've never, never seen him before. our foreign affairs reporter elise labin is here in "the situation room." you have the photo album, rare pictures of this little guy. >> it's the first time anyone has seen these pictures. as they may show him as sweet, happy toddler, it's his adult behavior that is really alarming the u.s. he doesn't look so menacing as a child, smiling and saluting in a

military uniform. but never seen before photos of the north korean dictator as a young boy foreshadow kim jong un's future as leader of the country's military. the photos unveiled at an air force celebration. thousands of north koreans dutifully cheer as the young kim is shown in the cockpit of an airplane. women close to tears as they watch kim, now all grown up, make his way through the crowd. the youngest son of former leader kim jong il was shrouded in secrecy. only a few photos of him in his youth have been discovered. >> part of building his myth that he has been prepared to be a leader ever since he was a young child. >> reporter: the warm and fuzzy photos of kim jong un as a boy contrast with a sharp warning this week from south korea, that the unpredictable north korean leader could launch a nuclear test, just as president obama arrives in asia and visits seoul

friday. >> we continue to urge north korea to refrain that actions that threaten regional peace and security. >> reporter: after u.s.-south korea joint military exercises wrapped up last month, north korea threatened to carry out a new form of a nuclear test. and recent satellite images indicate increased activity at its main nuclear site, with new movement of equipment and vehicles near tunnels where a test would likely take place. >> north korea is developing more and better nuclear weapons, more and better ballistic missiles to carry them. it's not a cry for help or a cry for attention. >> and wolf, this week north korea criticized president obama's trip as a dangerous move. said there is speculation kim jong un could stage some sort of provocation while the president is in seoul. u.s. officials say they have no evidence of that. but right now they're watching this situation closely. but it's very clear this cute chubby cheeked kid has turned

into a very frightening leader of a dangerous country. >> take a look at what he has done, including his uncle who was once a power in north korea. obviously he ordered him gone. >> exactly. who would have nobody that that little kid would turn out to be like this. and they never really thought that he was going to be the leader. it was surprising. and that's why he was kept quiet all these years. but now he is turning into quite his father's son. >> the analysts you're talking, to do they really believe the north koreans would do another nuclear test while president obama is in south korea in the coming days? >> well, really, it's the south koreans that are saying that. they always like to hype it up. but u.s. officials say they don't have any indication that that is going to happen while the president is there. but you really have to take the north koreans at their word, wolf. every time they say they're going to launch a nuclear weapon, they have. they think they're going to do it, they just don't know when. >> if they did it while the president was south korea, that would be dramatic. thanks very much for sharing the photos with our viewers.

thanks very much for watching. you can always follow us on twitter. tweet me @wolfblitzer. tweet the show @cnnsitroom. don't forget to watch us tomorrow if you can't see us live. dvr the show so you won't miss a moment. "erin burnett outfront" starts right now. next, breaking news. the most promising lead yet. debris washing up on an australian beach. it the plane? plus, the ferry disaster in south korea. new questions about what was really on that ferry. and the 15-year-old stowaway who flew in a jet's landing gear to hawaii and survived. tonight the mother of another stowaway speaks out. let's go "outfront." >> good evening, everyone. i'm erin burnett. "outfront" tonight, a game changing new question in the search for malaysia airlines flight 370. high hopes that a piece of debris found on the