the most significant groups by the vatican, because it really signifies the relationship that john xxiii and john paul ii had with the jewish religion. let's bring in delia gallagher and john allen again. and if you will, talk about the legacy of both these popes once again. and john paul ii, we mentioned that he has a complicated legacy, but he's also remembered for his role in helping bring down communism in eastern europe, delia. >> yeah, he had an enormous impact in the world of his times and his role in the coming down of the iron curtain is probably exhibit "a." we'll remember that in 1979, he made his first homecoming to poland. [ speaking foreign language ] >> we'll just listen in now as

pope francis provides the homily of mass during this canonization ceremony. >> translator: and thomas was present. jesus turned to him and told him to touch his wounds. whereupon that man, so straightforward and accustomed to testing everything personally. my order, my god. the wounds of jesus are a scandal, a stumbling block for faith. yet, they're also the test of faith. that's why on the body of the risen christ, the wounds never pass away. they remain, for those wounds are the enduring sign of god's love for us.

they're essential for believing in god, not for believing that god exists, but for believing that god is love, innocence and faithfulness. st. peter quoting isaiah writes to christians, "by his wounds you have been healed." john xxiii and john paul ii were not afraid to look upon the wounds of jesus, to touch his torn hands and his pierced side. they were not ashamed of the flesh of christ. they were not scandalized by him, by his cross. they did not despise the flesh of their brother, because they

saw jesus in every person who suffers and stumbles. these were two men of courage, filled with the panacea of the holy spirit. and they bore witness before the church and the world to god's goodness and blessing. they were priests, bishops and popes of the 20th century. they lived through the tragic events of that century, but they were not overwhelmed by them. for them, god was more powerful, faith was more powerful, faith in jesus christ, the redeeming man of the lord of history.

the mercy of god shown by those five wounds is more powerful, and more powerful, too, was the closeness of mary, our mother. in these two men who looked upon the wounds of christ and bore witness to his mercy, they built a living hope and an indescribable and glorious joy, the hope and the joy which the risen christ bestows on his disciples, the hope and the joy which nothing and no one can take from them. the hope and joy of easter forged in the crucible of self-denial, self-emptying, utter identification with sinners, even to the point of disgust at the bitterness of

that chance. such were the hope and the joy which these two holy popes have received as a gift from the risen lord and which they, in turn, bestowed in abundance on the people of god, meriting our eternal gratitude. this hope and this joy were palpable in the earliest community of the leaders in jerusalem, as we read in the acts of the apostles. it was a community which lived the heart of the gospel, love and mercy in simplicity of eternity. this is also the image of the church, which the second vatican council set before us.

john xxiii and john paul ii cooperated with the holy spirit in renewing and updating the church in keeping with her pristine features. those features which the saints have given her throughout the centuries. let us not forget that it is the saints who give direction and growth to the church. in convening the council, john xxiii showed an exquisite openness to the holy spirit. he let himself be led and he was for the church a pastor, a servant leader. this was his great service to

the church. i like to think of him as being the pope of openness to the spirit. in his own service to the people of god, saint john paul ii was the pope of the family. he himself once said that he wanted to be remembered as the pope of the family. i'm particularly happy to point this out as we are in the process of journeying with families towards the sinered on the family. it's certainly a journey which from his place in heaven he guides and sustains us. may these two new saints and shepherds of god's people enter

into the church so that this two-year journey, she may be open to the holy spirit in pastoral service to the family. may both of them teach us not to be scandalized by the wounds of christ and to enter ever more deeply into the mystery of divine mercy, which always hopes and always forgives because it always loves. >> another very beautiful homily. simple, to the point, summarizing so beautifully these two great points -- >> and you are just listening to

pope francis deliver the homily, a message of mercy and hope, as you heard there. i want to bring in delia gallagher again with john allen. and you know, the pope mentioned the vatican ii council of john xxiii, and he called it a great service to the church. can you give us more context there? because i know the vatican ii council was quite controversial within the church and it led to many priests leaving the church because of it. >> yes, that's right, amara. it was a council that lasted four years, basically meetings reviewing a lot of the practices and documents of the church. among other things, for example, it said that the mass could be said in other languages besides latin. it said that the priest could face the people. it was a way to try to bring, let's say a church which had been very formal down to the people and let the people feel

involved in their mass, for example. there was obviously, like with any change, a lot of consternation because people were unsure what these documents meant. and frankly, we can say even now they still discuss what these documents meant and how they are best implemented, and that began a kind of fracture in the church which had some people that wanted to stay more faithful to things and the way they happened before, so they like the latin mass or they like the fact that the priest faces east and has his back to the congregation. so, it became a divisive moment in the church, which many believe is still being reconciled, and that's why when we talk about pope francis wanting to keep a liberal and conservative side, that's part of what we are talking about. those changes brought about by vatican ii many believe still need to be understood and implemented. >> church historians often say it takes about 100 years, really, for the dust to settle

on a council, and if that's the finish line, we're only really about halfway there. so i mean, the fact that catholics are still debating over what those 16 documents of vatican ii meant and all that, it really isn't all that surprising. i think the way francis would see it, it's not really that john xxiii was liberal and john paul ii was conservative, but they're different phases of making real the legacy of what vatican ii represented. john xxiii, you know, his watch word was adjournomento, you know, throwing open the windows and renewing the church. john paul ii was in many ways the great apostle of the council, the man who took this idea of a church that's vitally engaging the world and took that to the streets and made it real. and francis in his own way, i think, would see himself as continuing that process of figuring out what this actually meant. >> and you mentioned the legacy of pope john paul ii, the great apostle. and we were just talking about this before we took the homily,

john, but john paul ii also remembered for his role in the collapse of communism in eastern europe. >> yes, that's right. i mean, john paul ii -- i mean, if we were to start listing his accomplishments, we would be here all day. remember, john paul ii was pope almost 27 years. he was the third longest serving pontiff in the more than 2,000-year history of the catholic church. actually, you know, one of the better known biographies of john paul ii, the title was "man of the century." and what the author meant by that was he in his own life summed up the great dramas of the 20th century. remember, this is a man who came of age during the nazi occupation of poland, who then became a bishop and a leader during the era of the soviet occupation of eastern europe, and then as pope triggered the collapse of communism. he inspired the people's power movement in the philippines that

swept the marcos regime from power. in fact, amara and earl, i interviewed carnal sean o'malley of boston yesterday, who said that john paul traveled the world administering last rites to dictators. he visited the philippines and visited chile and then here yoesh is gone. in many ways, castro is the only guy who survived a papal trip. so, just a lion of the 20th century who had a massive impact on his time. >> you know, one of the other things i think that's not often discussed about john paul ii was sort of his mysticism. whenever we traveled with him, you'd notice whenever he wasn't talking to somebody, he was praying the rosary, and he would have the rosary in his hand and he would be mumbling the words. and i always found that very amazing, actually, because when you're exhausted after papal

trips, or he had a very heavy schedule and he was already quite ill, that he constantly seemed to be praying the rosary. and i think the fact that he was a poet and somebody who really believed himself in saints -- he loved saj ed saints and he madef them, but something in him was genuine about believing there were people in heaven watching over him and giving him strength. >> he had a deep belief in the commu communion of saints. and we heard from john paul's spokesperson of 22 years saying the other day that the most powerful pictures of john -- the world has filled millions of images of john paul ii, but the most powerful pictures are those showing him at prayer. and of course, the stories are also legion about people in the papal household who would notice that the lights were on in john paul's private chapel at 3:00 in the morning, and they would go in and find him in some cases stretched out on the floor in the sign of the cross, just

utterly absorbed in prayer. if you ask, where did the reservoir of energy that allowed john paul ii to do this really impossible job, because the papacy is an impossible job. we expect popes to be fortune 500 ceos, media rock stars, political titans, intellectual giants and living saints. how did he pull that off for almost 27 years? i think that energy was rooted in his life of prayer. >> yeah. >> john, on that point of what it takes to be pope, really, and how pope john paul ii really had insurmountable energy, we've seen pictures now of pope emeritus benedict being a part of this ceremony. he stepped down last year, retired, citing health reasons. indeed, today he looks very frail. talk to us more about how physically and personally, emotionally grueling it is for these men of such stature to have such a position as pope.

>> well, listen, it is -- [ speaking foreign language ] >> okay, we were just listening in to pope francis there as he spoke. let's jump back to john allen, just about to answer the question of how difficult it is for these mortal men to be pope. >> these are the prayers of the faithful. the first is -- >> okay, we're actually going to go to ben wedeman, with the crowd on the ground near st. peter's square. so, ben, give us a sense of the energy. i would imagine it's an emotional and exciting time at the same time. >> reporter: yes, indeed. we can tell it's very emotional for many of the people in the crowd here. some of whom when they heard that the church had officially declared pope john paul ii and john xxiii as saints had broke into tears. now, it's interesting, when you're speaking to people,

obviously, when you ask them about john xxiii, that was 51 years ago that he died, so very few people have a recollection of him, although they are aware of his works, but what's interesting, and we spoke to people from poland, spoke to people from latin america, they remember very distinctly, very clearly pope john paul when he made his many visits to north america, to latin america and elsewhere and describe him in very emotional terms as a man who was very good at connecting with the people, who could identify with the concerns of ordinary members of the church, who really went out of his way traveling to the four corners of the earth. he's by far the most, the best traveled pope in the history. he is somebody who clearly made a personal impact, connection with many of the people who are here in st. peter's square, who

have come back to pay their respects to a man they remember very clearly making an impact on their lives. >> and ben, of course, many people remembering fondly pope john paul ii. what kind of opinions are you hearing people share about the current pope, pope francis, and pope emeritus benedict? >> reporter: i'm not sure i made out the last part of your question, but it's universally positive here. they see him as a man who played a critical role in the history of the church, but also in the history of the world in the sense many people do credit him with having played a part in the downfall of communism. and certainly, for many of the polish faithful here, they look upon him as a symbol of a man who fought against communism, who fought for their country, in

addition to fighting for the church. and so, certainly, when people speak about john paul, as i said before, they remember him distinctly. he was a man who basically traveled everywhere. i saw him in egypt, i saw him in jordan. he was somebody who eventually came to wherever you were and whatever corner of the world you were, and people remember him for that. >> and ben, you know, we're hearing so many stories about people coming from all over the world just to be there to witness this unprecedented, historic event, and we're repeating this again, marathon runners from poland who literally ran to st. peter's square just to be there. >> that's incredible. >> what does it mean for the people there to be able to witness this event? >> reporter: people really made an effort to get here, and there may have been marathon runners from poland, but definitely,

that last 100 yards or so was very difficult because this place is so crowded at the moment. people were sleeping outside. now, st. peter's square was cleared yesterday evening for security reasons, but when they started to allow people back in this morning, there were tens of thousands. and of course, italian police are saying there's more than a million people here in st. peter's square and the area around it. they were really pushing to get in. and the many italian volunteers who have been brought in to try to keep the crowd under control were really sweating trying to do that job. but once people are in, yes, it's crowded in here, but the atmosphere very upbeat, very solemn in many respects, but, so, yes, people have come from -- i mean, you look around in the crowd, you can see people from everywhere. there are flags from poland. i saw a flag from iraq, spain,

honduras, guatemala, the united states, ireland, the uk, and of course, many italians here as well. so, definitely here you see quite vividly the multinational nature of the catholic church. >> our ben wedeman is there in vatican city as the canonization of two popes to saints continues. you're watching live pictures as pope francis continues to conduct over ceremonies there. ben saying that people from all over the world, really, not just poland, marathon runners we've been impressed by, but many others who are either physically there are watching this on television, more than a billion catholics around the world are watching all of this. we've also got our john allen, our senior vatican correspondent there as well. and i tried a couple times to get this question to you, john. let's try a third time. how hard is it to be pope?

>> well, i will say it again. by any human logic, it's basically impossible. it's unfathomable a job. think about what popularly we expect popes to be. we expect them to be fortune 500 ceos, we expect them to be media rock stars, we expect them to be political heavyweights, we expect them to be intellectual giants, and we expect them to be living saints. and any one of which is difficult as a life's work. you roll them all up together, it's basically impossible. and if you want to see the physical toll that the job takes, i mean, just compare pictures of john paul ii in october 1978 when this swashbuckling man's man, john wayne bursts upon the global stage and took the world by storm, versus that frail, elderly man in his twilight. it wasn't just the years and the parkinson's disease, it was the physical toll of the job. you can see the same thing on

the 87-year-old pope benedict xvi today. obviously frail, obviously weak, although the lights are certainly still all on in terms of his intellectual capacity. we both talked to people who have been in to see benedict in the monastery on vatican grounds where he's living, who will tell you he remains incredibly sharp, incredibly lucid. but obviously, the job also took its toll on him. >> yes, and i visited him myself there and was able to take a walk with him in the gardens, and i saw for myself that he, yes, absolutely still completely intellectually alive, very much so. we see that he's written even articles to italian papers. he likes to respond to people that ask him questions about his books and so on. but certainly, physically -- and he was never the hail and hearty john paul ii, but speaking of how difficult it is to be pope, it's also difficult to be pope after john paul ii. so looking at the papacy of pope

benedict, at the time, he said after he was elected that he felt he was being led to the guillotine when they announced his name. just to tell you how much they really don't want to be pope, because it is such a demanding job. and i think probably benedict recognized that some of the qualities that are needed to be a pope in today's world, qualities that pope francis and john paul ii have quite naturally, such as a charisma out with crowds and kissing babies and shaking hands and so on, were things for him that didn't come so naturally, and possibly that weighed also in his decision to resign. >> oh, no question, but speaking of the way the kind of inner energizer bunny capacity that recent popes seem to have been able to summon -- i mean, francis, too, his ability to sort of keep up with the demands of the job and to exceed any reasonable expectation is just staggering. i remember, you know, on the papal plane, when we were returning from that trip that he took to brazil in july, where francis attracted crowds of more

than 3 million people to copacabana beach at rio de janeiro, a grueling eight-day schedule. then on the plane on the way back, he comes back and does this 1 hour and 20 minute, totally unscripted, impromptu press conference with those of us traveling with him. by the way, i say about that flight, the seats were uncomfortable and the food was mediocre, but the inflight entertainment was spectacular, because when you cover the vatican, you dream of stuff like that. anyway, at the end of all that, i assumed he would go back up and collapse. six hours later i was talking to one of the vatican officials who was up in the front compartment with the pope who said, no, he's actually going around to every one of us to do impromptu business meetings on the plane, you know, to find out what we're up to and to move the ball on the things he cares about. so, he, too, has this remarkable reservoir of energy that we have to believe, delia, is grounded also in his spirituality and his life of prayer. >> absolutely. and we should mention that they're moving into the second

part of the mass, which is the most important part of the catholic mass. it's the eucharistic service, in which the pope will bless what catholics believe is the body and blood of jesus. he turns the bread and wine into the body and blood through these prayers. it's something called tr transubstanceation in the catholic church, and that's what he'll be doing now at the altar. >> i bet delia a dollar earlier today she wasn't going to be able to work the word transubstanciation in. well done. >> and the key thing about this eucharist is the chanting of the litany of the saints will for the first time include the new saints which have just been canonized today. >> yes, and that's the point, earl, that now that they are saints, the pope can actually call on them during these

liturgies and people can technically now, it is allowed, the whole church may pray to them. obviously, we've seen many have been praying to them already. >> yeah. i don't think that they were waiting for the official act of canonization to do that, but you're right. we might also say that the word eucharist is a greek word that means thanksgiving. so, the principal act of thanksgiving here is for the power of god converting the bread and wine to what catholics believe to be the body and blood of christ, but today is also in a way a eucharist that is a festival of thanksgiving for these two new saints, popes john xxiii and now saints john xxiii and john paul ii. >> and if today's mass weren't enough, tomorrow there will be another mass of thanksgiving for today's mass. so -- >> so, lots of thanksgiving going on in rome this week. >> the celebrations aren't ending here. >> so, now that the catholics will have saint john paul ii, saint john xxiii, what happens

next? how is it made official? >> well, it is official as of this morning, when pope francis read the formula of canonization, saying i now declare and define, invoking, by the way, his infailable authorities as pope. catholics believe canonization involves the infallible teaching authority of the pope, that so-and-so is a saint, meaning they're in heaven with god. in a sense, the story is now over, that john 23 -- it is now saints, john xxiii and john paul ii. what will happen around the world, as delia said, is that masses will be organized on the local level to pray to these saints. devotions, that is, services of prayer to these saints, you will find high schools and elementary schools and parishes. so, you know, there will be st. john xxiii elementary school in

dubuque, iowa, and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be more than one john paul ii elementary school in krakow, poland. >> you're listening there to delia gallagher and john allen, our vatican experts and analysts just outside of vatican city as the canonization of the entire ceremony continues there. the catholic church now has two new saints, john paul ii and john xxiii. let's listen in to the ceremony under way. ♪

♪ ♪ [ speaking foreign language ]

>> all right, we want to bring in delia gallagher now, along with john allen. and if you will, please just explain to us where we are in this mass and what is happening right now. >> amara, this is the most solemn part. this is the actual blessing of the eucharist, of the body and blood of christ, which is what catholics believe it becomes. it is bread and wine. and the pope prays that it turns into what they believe is the body and blood of christ, and that becomes their communion. it's the central act of

christianity, really, and of the mass, certainly. the masochists of two parts. one is readings, which we heard from the bible, from the gospels, and the elevation of the host, which is what you're seeing now, which is considered by catholics to be one of the most sacred things of their religion, that is the body of christ. >> in fact, the second vatican council, versus that historic assembly of catholic bishops that was convened by john xxiii, and in a sense, implemented by john paul ii, actually defined the eucharist as the source and the summit of christian life, that is, where our spirituality comes from and where it kind of reaches its apogee. >> and amara, it's also important because it is considered the central act of unity. so that if you receive communion, you are part of the communion of the catholic church, and it's one of those things which actually, recently,

we've been hearing a lot about, because you are not supposed to receive communion unless you are in a state of grace, unless you have gone to confession and you have no sins. and it's one of the things that pope francis is trying to encourage people to do, to go to confession, to be part of communion. but of course, there are a number of rules for people who can and can't receive communion, and that is one of the debates that we have seen recently in the catholic church. >> in fact, francis, of course, called pope john paul ii today the pope of the family. and he mentioned, that is pope francis mentioned, that there is going to be a major gathering of bishops from all around the world here in rome in october for something called a sinid, which is a greek word which means journey together, but basically, a meeting in which bishops are going to be talking about issues related to the family. and one of the hot-button issues on the table at that meeting is precisely the question of whether catholics who get divorced and then remarried outside the church, who under current rules are barred from

receiving communion, whether that rule ought to be changed and whether those folks ought to be welcomed back into communion. so, this issue of what it takes to come to the table has been an issue throughout 2,000 years of catholic life and remains one today. >> absolutely. amara? >> i want to ask you, because we're talking about unity as one of the themes here. and with all the complexity and politics within the catholic church, do you think that this canonization will actually help unite the catholics within the church and around the world? >> well, i think the most immediate effect, amara, it probably has, is for, really since the election of john paul ii in 1978, there has been a strong tendency in catholic life, both among the kind of intellectual wing of the church, and even at the catholic grassroots, to sort of pit john xxiii and john paul ii against one another, as if john xxiii

represents the kind of progressive, liberal vision of the church and john paul ii a kind of restorationist conservative agenda to roll back the clock on vatican ii. i think from this day forward, it is going to become much more difficult to make that argument, because pope francis has so clearly and visibly put these popes together and said what they have in common is more fundamental than whatever distinguishes them. >> yeah. i think also, john, that you know, the divisions and the discussions will always remain, because you get people that are very entrenched with their views. and of course, the views take into account a lot of elements. they take into account what's said in the bible, they take into account what's been said throughout the centuries of church teaching on various issues. and you'll even see it amongst the cardinals themselves. they will go back and forth about historically what has been done in the past and what we can be allowed to do today and so on. we call it liberal and conservative, but in a certain

sense, it's really just a historical and theological debate about how you can go about doing things with the overriding umbrella of pope francis's message, which is that people shouldn't feel excluded, that they should, yes, know the rules and attempt to abide by them, but they should also remember the mercy of god. that's his point. >> yeah, although as journalists who get paid to cover the catholic church, it's worth saying that it would be awfully dull if there weren't those differences out there. part of the drama of covering a church that has 1.2 billion members in every nook and cranny of the planet is that all of those divisions and differences and diversities and so forth out there in the wider world, they are also very much present in the catholic church. and so, you're right, of course, the divisions aren't going to go away. but on the other hand, i think what we've seen today from pope francis, the genius, the political genius in a way, of putting these two popes

together, is that he is issuing a clear invitation to unity. and by the way, by making himself, that is, pope francis, a patron of both john xxiii and john paul ii, he said the left and right, you know, you can't exploit me for your ideological purposes, because i love both of these men. >> yeah. he doesn't want to be pigeon-holed into any one camp. amara? >> all right, we're listening to delia gallagher and john allen there, just outside vatican city, as pope francis continues mass here on this sunday, a day when two popes have been canonized into saints. if we have translation on this, why don't we just listen in to the atmosphere there. ♪

♪ ♪ [ speaking foreign language ] >> it is so remarkable to see these images of everyone coming together to sing and pray. it definitely is an emotional moment and also an exciting one to be there to witness this historic canonization of two

popes on the same day, which has never happened before. let's go back to john allen and delia gallagher. and just to give us a sense of how different this particular ceremony is and the feeling in the crowd there. >> well, i mean, in a way, you know, we have covered large-scale canonization and beatification events before. i mean, we've seen vast crowds here in rome, for example, for the canonization of padre, who bore the wounds of christ in his own body or the beatification of mother teresa. but i think what is unique, of course, here today is that we are watching history being made. and everyone here is aware that they are watching history being made, because the first time two popes have ever been declared saints together, the first time two living popes have ever taken part in a canonization ceremony, and that math, two plus two, by

the way, has led the italian press to dub today the festival of the four popes, referring to john xxiii, john paul ii, benedict xvi, who is on hand, and francis. so, there is a special electricity here, simply because people who have been catholic all their lives and for whom many aspects of the church feel very familiar, i mean, they've been there, done that, you know, are aware that they are watching something here today and taking part in something that has never happened before. >> yeah, and i think that probably one of the only events that might outdo this one is if they decide to canonize mother teresa. the beatification was a huge event. she's been waiting for a while. it might be time to do it. and that might be the next event that would really draw this kind of a crowd. i mean, people have been here since a few day ago, but just yesterday they started coming in to stake out their place here on the ground, and they've slept on the ground all night. we arrived very early this morning and had to jump over people who were in sleeping bags

and with rain coats on because it had rained a bit during the night. i mean, a huge kind of devotion that you just don't get to see at other vatican events when they come for a funeral or a conclave. it's more a kind of curiosity. but this, something really moves the people who have come here. so, for all of our talk and sometimes cynicism about miracles and so on, you see from these people who have come so far and are willing to sleep outside an entire night and why they do it. they obviously are extremely devoted to one or both of these two new pope saints. >> yeah. i mean, the streets of rome in the run-up to today's event have just been fascinating to watch them fill up from people from all around the world, but of course, in particular from two parts of the world, poland. i mean, there are parts of rome that have become virtual polish colonies in the last several

days. and then there are people who come from bergamo, which is the region of italy that john xxiii comes from. there's a dialect there, and you can hear its melodiuos tones in the streets. you talk about the devotion people show, and one of the things about being at a canonization ceremony is that it's kind of an odd mix between -- there are pieces of it that are very solemn and devotional, and other pieces that have the feel of a high school pep rally on steroids, because these people aren't here just to be solemn. i mean, they are also here to celebrate and do high-fives about the lives of these two figures to whom they're so attached. >> yeah. they've been singing and chanting all night and lots of youth groups, but lots of elderly people as well. and i think we should mention that the music today, most of the mass has been sung, as you've heard, and that's the sistine chapel choir, which we've heard before, also the krakow philharmonic from poland

and the bergamo die yosin choir. so, bergamo being the diocese of john xxiii and krakow of john paul ii. so, they've also come for this occasion for everybody. >> and delia and john, just a quick question -- john, if you can hear me, we're just curious as we look forward, what follows this momentous day. are john paul ii and john xxiii, are they likely to become the patron saints of any special causes? do we know that yet, or is that something that gets figured out later? >> well, that will be formally figured out later. but listen, i mean, john xxiii, now saint john xxiii is going to be for all time remembered as the patron saint of the second vatican council. therefore, any time there are projects or seminaries or other endeavors in catholic life that

certainly, john 23 will be its patron. with john paul ii, in a special way, he will be remembered as the great patron saint of youth, in particular world youth day, which is this massive gathering of catholic youth from around the world that he launched, which has now become kind of the olympic games of the catholic church. delia, you were talking earlier about when we'll see another crowd like this. one time i think you can take it to the bank is in 2016, when world youth day is going to be celebrated in krakow, poland, under the patronage of its patron saint, now saint john paul ii, in the diocese that is led by the former personal secretary, carnal stanislas jivich. you want to put on your calendars now the biggest polish party of this decade? 2016, krakow world youth day. >> yeah. and i think john paul ii, as pope francis already mentioned in his homily, definitely will become the patron saint for the

family, and that is something that pope francis has already said he would like to see, and that's a big theme for the catholic church this year. as we mentioned, they'll be having a meeting in october, worldwide bishops coming to rome to discuss some of the issues of the family, including communion for divorced and remarried catholics and other situations which catholic families find themselves in today. >> and delia, we're watching now, as people there receive communion, we expect pope francis to recite a prayer and possibly make a statement and speak to everyone listening and watching. i'm wondering if the pope is likely to use that platform now to drop any hints or to push or nudge forth any changes he may want to bring, or is that something likely to be done behind closed doors and behind the scenes? >> well, we've seen that this is a pope who's not afraid to speak

from the heart and go off the cuff. so, i wouldn't be surprised if he didn't necessarily keep to a script. on the other hand, this is a very solemn, formal occasion, and pope francis has said himself that he is a son of the church, he respects the traditions of the church, and i think that he will respect the fact that today is a particular day and will respect the solemn themes of today and any other messages he may want to send which aren't germane to the day, he wouldn't use this platform to do it. >> to use the language of our business, i don't think francis wants to make himself the story today. i think he wants john xxiii and john paul ii very much to be today's story. >> now, we'll continue to watch these pictures here. as we've mentioned, you've got hundreds of thousands of people there at vatican city coming out to witness this historic event. two popes becoming saints. you've got 6,000 priests there

celebrating with pope francis. they will also be at the left-hand side of the ator, but on the lower part. you can't see that now. 600 priests serving communion there to the faithful in st. peter's square and piazza pio, the square just outside of st. peter's. you are seeing the wide shot here, stunning and beautiful view. 70 deacons will be serving communi communion and another 200 deacons will serve communion on the road leading to the vatican, just off camera from what you're seeing now. >> these are truly remarkable images, a solemn moment, but also, there's electricity in the air as john and delia have been reporting. just an excitement to be here to witness this historic event. two popes being canonized at the same time, on the same day. doesn't happen quite often. in fact, it's never happened before. john and delia, we're going to bring you back in. and as communion is being given, if you can help us, remind us of the significance of communion as

they take that from the bishops and the priests there. >> well, of course, at one level, communion refers to the hosts, the bread that the faithful are receiving that catholic believe has been transformed into the body of jesus christ. and so, when we talk about receiving communion, that's what we usually mean. but of course, communion also has a broader sense, meaning the kind of unity of the church, the unity of the faithful. and we also talk, of course, in catholic tradition about the communion of saints, the idea that saints are kind of the fabric that knits the church together, you know, through time and across space. and this is a great moment in which two new members of that communion of saints have been formally recognized as such. popes john xxiii and john paul ii. and you mentioned earlier, delia, that john paul ii had this great devotion to the communion of saints, and of course, that's right. you'll remember in one of his

private chapels in the apostolic palace, when he had the murals on the walls done, he brought in an eastern orthodox artist, who did this mural that showed the communion of saints, you know, through time, and that when you stood in that space, you stood shoulder to shoulder surrounded by this heavenly host of saints. so, we're also engaging in communion in that sense here today. >> well, and i was thinking that one of the saints that has a thread running through this day is st. francis of assisi. obvious reasons for pope francis, but also john xxiii, before the start of the second vatican council, went to assisi in pilgrimage to pray to st. francis for his help with the second vatican council and pope john paul ii use assisi as a play where he held interreligious prayer days, which also tried to unify. so, there's a kind of interesting thread speaking of the communion of saints of st. francis as well, for all three

of these popes. >> absolutely. >> and once this mass concludes, pope francis will recite the angeles prayer from st. peter's square and may deliver a message. and then after that, the pope will greet the dignitaries in the altar are that you see there of st. peter's square. then the pope will start his popemobile drive in st. peter's square, and possibly in the piazza pio as well. but we're talking about the pope. he will be greeting the dignitaries in the altar area after much of this has concluded. and we mentioned earlier, which i found interesting, are the interreligious delegations that are present, including the jewish delegation, which is considered quite a significant group by the vatican. john and delia, if you can talk a little bit about that and the outreach that john xxiii and john paul ii have done with the jewish communities.

>> well, you know, they were both known for their friendship with the jewish communities, and john xxiii, in opening the second vatican council, contributed to a kind of revolution in the way that the catholic church thought of jews. there's a document called nostre itate, which is "in our times," which talks about the catholic church's view of the jewish people. it used to be that, according to the catholic church, the jews were blamed for the death of jesus. and this document made it clear that they were not to be blamed as an entire people then or now for the death of jesus. it sounds strange, but it was one of those issues which was very important in catholic/jewish relations. and of course, john paul ii was the first pope to visit a synagogue. he had a background of friendship with jewish people in poland.

one of his best friends was jewish. and so, john paul ii had a continually long relationship with jewish rabbis and jewish people in general. he also established diplomatic relations with israel in 1994, amongst other things. so, both of them were recognized by many jewish leaders as two catholic popes who encouraged dialogue and friendship with the jewish religion. john paul ii calling them our elder brothers. so, certainly, even in the sense of respect for the jewish religion. it used to be that one had to convert the jews in the catholic religion. >> yeah, and delia, this is something that very much continues, another point of continuity between these two popes and pope francis. pope francis, one of his best friends is a rabbi, they did a book together "of heaven and earth."

then, he was in buenos aires when the community center there was bombed, one of the great outrages against the jewish community in latin america. he was very involved in the response to that. he and jewish leaders in buenos aires were engaged in responding to argentina's economic crisis. so, this, too, is a pope profoundly committed to good relations with jews. >> yeah, a very important issue and historical issue for the catholic church. and so, that is why the vatican is very happy, i think, today that one of the largest interfaith groups that are here are representatives of the jewish religion. of course, there are anglicans, many representatives from other christian denominations. there is a muslim representation as well. so, i think it's safe to say probably most of the world religions are represented here today. >> and delia and john, i'm just curious of your overall opinion, as we watch this unfold on a day when two popes have become saints, two living popes are taking part in this ceremony. where do you see the status of

the catholic church today? john, i know you've mentioned that the catholic church exists in centuries, blocks of 100 years, for things to change and reform over time, but how would you both compare the status of the church today to previous decades and centuries? >> well, i mean, it depends on which snapshot you want to look at, but i think one thing you can say that takes us out of the realm of opinion and more into, like, observable fact, is that in many ways, the catholic church is feeling better about itself today than it was, say a year and a month ago, that is, before the election of pope francis. i mean, i think there is no doubt that the church, to some extent, felt itself to be under siege towards the end of the benedict years, or the dominant narratives about the church and the media around the world were things like the sexual abuse scandals, vatican bank embarrassments, you know,

crackdowns on nuns, bruising political fights. and you know, suddenly, the narrative is -- i mean, those have not gone away, but the narrative now is rock star pope takes the world by storm. in my experience of the catholic grassroots, that has injected a kind of dose of adrenaline into the catholic bloodstream, and it's created a sense that, you know, new possibilities may be opening for the church. >> yeah, i think certainly there is a sense, a feeling of rebirth after a kind of dark and difficult period, because mainly of the sex abuse crisis, i think. and as you say, that still has to be taken into consideration by pope francis, many calling on him to make further declarations about that, and of course, to call for full transparency and accountability, something which he himself did just the other week in, again, apologizing for that crisis and saying that he will make sure that sanctions are imposed.

so, that, i think, will be seen even historically as a very dark period for the catholic church. and as you said, it hasn't finished yet, but there is a sense of rebirth with this new figure who may be able to lead the catholic church out of that and into a new light. you know, just the other day, pope francis came up with something called bat christians. and he said, a bat christian is someone who likes to live in the dark and is afraid of the light, and he said don't be bat christians. come out into the light and share the good news. and i think that's really what he's trying to encourage people to do. >> i guess the next natural question is, what is next? who might be the next candidate for sainthood? and i know that the two of you mentioned mother teresa. is she a shoo-in? >> oh, listen, i mean, i don't think anybody here has any serious doubt that sooner or later, it's going to be st.

teresa. it's really just a question of time. you know, vatican officials often say that, you know, they don't set the pace of sainthood causes, god does, because it's a question of how long it takes for that second miracle to sort of work its way through the system. but no, i don't think anybody has any serious doubt that that's how it's going to end. i think one other, sort of the missing pope in all of this -- i mean, one other candidate we might be looking for would, of course, be pope paul vi, the second pope of the second vatican council, or for that mult matter, another contemporary pope whose process is under way would be john paul i, the smiling pope of 33 days. so, we might look to see whether there's movement on either of those two causes. >> one of the most controversial cases, causes for sainthood is pope pius xii. that one has been going on for some time. he was pope during the second world war. and there are those who infamously called him hitler's pope in the sense that he has

been accused of not doing enough to help the jews during that time, something the vatican vehemently denies and has come out over the years to try and give evidence to point to what pius xii did to help the jews during that time, but it's a highly debated cause and has been for some time. so, that will be interesting. pope benedict decided to wait and gather more information on that situation, i think because it is such a hot issue. it will be interesting to see what pope francis does with that. >> one other blockbuster potential saint we would look for would be oscar romero, the archbishop of el salvador in 1980, shot while saying mass, a hero to the liberation theology movement. and that cause, although he has a tremendous grassroots following all over latin america, that cause has been blocked for a while. francis, however, coming from latin america, may be the one to kayak it loose. >> delia gallagher and john allen giving us fantastic

analysis, just outside of vatican city on this momentous day. thanks to you both. they're of course not going anywhere. cnn will continue to cover this important day for the more than a billion catholics around the world. and it's been a remarkable one so far. >> it sure has been quite remarkable. the images very moving. a solemn day, but also one filled with so much excitement, as you've been hearing from ben wedeman on the ground there. he says he felt an electricity there in the air, as this historic, unprecedented event has been taking place, the first time that two popes have been canonized on the same day. and we should also mention that none of this would have been possible without those three miracle women, the women who say they were cured by praying to pope john paul ii and pope john xxiii. [ inaudible ] present along with sister marie simone pierre. but as you were saying, a remarkable day. thank you for joining us on our live coverage of the canonization of two popes. just becoming a saint.

>> but stay with us here at cnn. our coverage continues after our coverage continues after this. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com ♪ you're looking at live pictures -- >> you're looking at live pictures of the vatican. million people plus expected there to be watching what you are seeing is an unprecedented situation, the canonization of two new popes, well, two former popes. now we have two new saints in the world. >> while there are two