what sterling said was racist and despicable period. but the fact that this conversation reportedly went on for over an hour, is itself telling where the proper response was for her to slap him and then leave. i'm michael smerconish. i'll see you back here tomorrow night. "cnn special report" starts with right now. this is a "cnn special report." i'm don lemon. and tonight i want to have a conversation about race and how we talk about it. first, listen to donald sterling. >> if you don't feel it, don't come to my games. don't bring black people and don't come. >> now listen to cliven bundy. >> i've often wondered, are they better off as slaves? picking cotton? >> their words are clearly indefensible but it's not just white men of a certain age. what about paul ryan talking about so-called inner city men who don't work or this from congressman bennie thompson?

>> uncle tom clarence thomas. >> some words are weapons. said out loud, they can only be worse. words that end the conversation. we also have the search for flight 370. ships from bangladesh searching the bay of bengal. is it another false lead in a case that's been full of them? you've been tweeting us about the missing plane and about donald sterling and my experts are standing by to talk about experts donald sterling would make more money than he deserves. alienate him from his own words. i want to begin with the latest on the sterling scandal. an nba meeting tomorrow could be the first step in forcing donald sterling to sell the clippers. names being tossed around

include everyone from oprah to magic johnson. here's cnn ted rowlands. >> reporter: as the nba attempting to force to sell the clippers, will he fight or delay a sale? what about his wife shelly? she showed up at last night's playoff game after getting permission from the clippers' coach doc rivers. >> it's a tough one for shelly, really. you know, she didn't do anything wrong either. and you've -- you have compassion for her. >> reporter: not everyone has compassion for shelly sterling. in a 2009 deposition for a federal lawsuit against the sterling's real estate corporation, sterling's wife was accused of calling a tenant a black mf after the tenant claims he asked for a reduction in rent. shelly sterling unee kwquivocal denied ever using a racial slur. the sterlings ended up settling. >> there have been no other decisions of members of the sterling family and i should say that this ruling applies

specifically to donald sterling. >> reporter: meanwhile, donald sterling's alleged mistress, v. stiviano, is a new magnet for the paparazzi venturing out with a visor that covers her face, she said she would one day run for president of the united states. >> and i would change the way -- >> reporter: several people are reportedly expressing an interest in owning the clippers, including oprah, david geffin, larry ellison and oscar de la hoya. >> the clippers need a face and what better face than my face. >> shaquille o'neal says it doesn't matter who ends up owning the clippers as long as it's not donald sterling. >> the players and the fans, we own the game. the owners are just the custodian. >> ted rowlands, cnn, los angeles. >> of course, our thanks to ted rowlands. joining me now is a cnn analyst. you've been writing about this

and speaking about this very passionately. donald sterling has been on your radar for some time now for a very long time and you've been covering him for years. tell us what you thought when you heard these tapes this weekend. >> well, the tape itself, i think a lot of people were out raged by it but if you were aware of the stuff in the court paperwork in the housing discrimination suits, the tapes were like, well, what do you know, donald sterling is the same person even though his team got goodedp the team got good and they wanted to enjoy the fact that the team was good. the tape itself was just really kind of bizarre. i thought it was kind of insightful to understand what somebody at that level thinks and he's embarrassed that his arm piece could be with black people and his friends would pick on him about that, almost like he's in high school. i wasn't outraged by it in a way that a lot of other people were because there was a lot more outrageous stuff in his past. >> back in 2006 you wrote about donald sterling and called him out on charges of housing discrimination which we're learning about now. why didn't that get more

attention at the time, do you think? >> that's a good point. housing discrimination lawsuits, you see the numbers within the millions of dollars. that doesn't resonate and splash with people. like what happened with the tmz thing, that got people's attention, it was pretty overt language, it was clear. it didn't require a deeper understanding of the system. people could hear that and jump on it and say, oh, my gosh, donald sterling is a horrible man. when you're talking about housing discrimination, you're talking about something that is step after step and a lot of people don't realize that they saw that lawsuit and i think a lot of people charged it up to, hey, what's the big deal, even though that's one of the biggest deals in the country. >> what do you think is worse, the housing discrimination charges or the comments that were caught on tape? >> well, i think if we're talking effectively about what happens in the world, the housing discrimination, the tape itself -- the tape stuff is it candy. some of that stuff you heard was a bit strange in the way of giving players stuff as opposed to paying them wages, which was disturbing.

ultimately, that was a crazy conversation between a man and his mistress. and their bizarre interactions. the stuff with the housing institute and say that black people stink and attract vermin and inhibiting the lively hoods of people in this country, what happened on that tape is what it was. it was a tmz story. >> i think the housing discrimination was far more egregious. that's where they live, right? these things he was mouthing off in his house or wherever he was, it's horrible but i think the housing discrimination is worse. stand by, i want to bring in bo kimball. you played for sterling's clippers in the '90s and you co founded 44 for life. in the 1990s, you were a first round draft pick chosen by the clippers. you recently learned that donald sterling had a lot of impact on your playing time. explain what you learned and how you learned it. >> well, first of all, i was very honored to be and very happy to be drafted by the

clippers eighth pick, lottery pick. it was a very exciting time for me. little did i know that coming to a team that i thought needed scoring, donald was more concerned about saving a $300,000 of bonus incentive that i had in my contract to play 15 minutes or less, he would save 300,000. so he wasn't worried about winning games, he was worried about saving 300 grand. so from a business perspective, a great decision. from a team perspective, it was very poor. and it's a perfect example of poor management and why they have the track record they had the last few years. >> he was a multimillionaire back in the '90s. he could have already been a billionaire. he was concerned about your playing time. that seems a bit petty if not cheap. did you know donald sterling to be a bigoted man? >> i did not. i have had a lot of discussions

the last few days, since this came out. donald had been a very respectful to me in person. unfortunately, he was harvesting these types of feelings for years and it was unfortunate. for me, when i was with the clippers, he cost me millions of dollars by not playing me. not only did i not get a chance to be on the court, which was very important, it cost me in endorsements, an opportunity to have a second contract. and i was probably just one of a series of players that, in reality, they thought we were a bust, but we never got the chance to shine. so imagine this. i come out of college, i'm a lottery pick, eighth pick, averaged 35 points in college, numbers that no one's put up in 70 years. yet, that being said, i can't even get on the court and contribute to a team that needs that type of scoring. now, what do you think would have happened if i had eight more minutes of playing and had been allowed to do the great things that i was allowed to do

at loyola mary mount? there was a lot of marketing and endorsements and at the end of the day it just didn't work out for me with the clippers. >> i have to ask you something. did you think it was personal or do you think it was just all about the money? >> i think it was actually all about the money. donald sterling, hands down, is a very shrewd businessman. so in that regard, nobody can take anything from that. but basketballwise, very poor. >> bo -- i have to get my bos straight. bomani, there's a lot of talk about what may happen next. do you think any members of the sterling family should be allowed to carry on with the clippers' organization? >> i would say, the argument, if they're getting rid of donald for his rabid racism, then shelly is going down door to door and marking down the ethnicities of the people that rent the building, then she can't own the team. it was staggering the way she was there and doc rivers said he

feels bad for shelly those two it seems it would be impossible for them to be in charge of that team, unless this nba penalty is a little more than public relations. a fellow housing discriminate for is not somebody that you put there. >> bo kimble, bomani jones, thank you, and stick around. when we come back, we'll talk more about donald sterling and paula deen. public figures pay a price for racism. but does that solve the problem? life's an adventure when you're with her.

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[ male announcer ] be a weekender at hotels like hampton and embassy suites. book now at hiltonweekends.com. welcome back, everyone. donald sterling is certainly not the first prominent figure to be caught making racist remarks and he's not the only one to pay a heavy price. what's the penalty when racism goes public? jean casarez has the story now. >> taking pictures with these minorities. why? >> reporter: it can get you fired, scorned, and now banned for life. >> i'm heartbroken. >> reporter: celebrity chef paula deen and cliven bundy and now donald sterling. painful words carrying a price. >> i think we've always had public figures out there saying outrageous things when it comes to race. the difference is now when

someone says something like this, the chances are, that it's been recorded somewhere. >> reporter: take the case of paula deen, a major cooking personality. >> there we go. how is this, y'all? >> reporter: when a deposition made public in 2013 showed that deen used the "n" word in the past, the multimillionaire seemingly lost it all. including her show on the food network and major corporate sponsors. professor robert thompson of syracuse university says there's a cycle and it now runs faster than ever. >> we start with public outrage. there's the official response by the people who can actually do something about it. >> hi. i'm back. >> paula deen is now in act 5 where she's attempting to come back and some people, of course, never achieve that part of the cycle. >> reporter: deen was reportedly worth $10 million when the scandal broke. donald sterling is a billionaire but he may end up being worth more money as a result of his

racist words. >> the big punishment for sterling might be, you've got to sell the team. and that might mean that your big punishment is, you make a sale that's going to make you hundreds of millions of dollars. >> cliven bundy accused the government of stepping on his rights. >> and i've often wondered are they better off as slaves picking cotton? >> those words ended his brief run in the political limelight. >> the core issue of racism or homophobia must be dealt with in a much more frontal way. as opposed to just punishing people who get caught on tape. >> reporter: a long-time public relations expert and civil rights activist says that the punishment doesn't solve the real problem. >> they either repent or don't repent and move on and the insidious problem of racism in america doesn't get dealt with. >> reporter: that is, until the

next public figure gets recorded on tape. jean casarez, cnn, new york. >> jean, thank you very much. so how do we deal with racism in public and private? joining me is cultural critic and writer mikayla davis. cnn legal analyst mark o'meara and bomani jones. welcome to the new members of the panel. professor ogletree i want to start with you first. what donald sterling said was so outrageous that it's really easy for people to stand up against racism this time. but what about the more subtle underlined examples of racism? >> a lot of people, don, have these racist views and they say them quietly. they say that they are not recorded. they are never reported. and we have to deal with it. because i think that we have to make sure that everybody has a right to speak but they can't talk about people because of their race, their sexual orientation, their gender, their class. all of these things are happening all the time and i

talk to my students about it all the time, because they don't see a lot of black professors in front of them. they need to understand that i'm very aware of issues of race and gender and sexual orientation and i'm going to make sure that they are aware of it, too. >> mark o'mara, it's an interesting question for you. as a colleague, i've seen the reaction that you've had for the george zimmerman trial. you were a central figure in the trayvon martin and george zimmerman case. when you talk publicly about race as a white man, how do people react to you? >> it's strange. people ask whether i have a right to talk about race as the white guy in the room but the reality is i think i've shown that i am willing and i'm comfortable talking about the uncomfortable. many times people have talked to me about the racial issues that came to the forefront in the zimmerman case and by the time the conversation is well underway, they understand that my view of the racism that exists is not just from the

george zimmerman case. that was one of thousands of cases. rather, it comes from the fact that for 30 years i've represented everybody accused and a lot of those have been young, black males and we've rallied against those same concerns within the criminal justice system. so, yeah, it's tough. but i think if we're comfortable talking about it, there's a lot to talk about. >> and we always say that, you know, michaela, because beside a public denunciation, what else can be done to end racism? because we sort of live, don't you think, between outrages? we go, i'm so outraged by this, paula deen, we're outraged. something else happens, we're outraged and then we go back to our normal lives. >> yes and no. i think what is interesting that we're seeing happening is we're sack stacking up icons of ignorance and they become touch points for young people and that's really what i'm focused on, is how is this affecting the next generation? how is it moving the culture forward? and while yes sterling may make

some money, but what happened to his legacy? and in history, people look at what you left behind. and paula deen and sterling and sandusky, folks are -- their legacy is being destroyed and there's power in that and the question is, what are we going to do moving forward? what is the nba going to do? because it was a very powerful moment seeing those players ready to organize, ready to like not play. imagine that. imagine the power. these are young, very rich black men with numbers. we've got one old man with a big bank account but we've got hundreds of activated hopefully black men so the answer is, what is this going to do for the organizations? do they see that they can have cultural currency and not just play on the field, that they can organize around issues? that's -- that's what's open at this point. >> bomani, i want to ask you this. and to what mark o'mara said, he

said, you know, he feels in many ways he's being judged by one thing that happened in his career, a long career. is it -- are we in an era where we don't allow white people to talk about race and we completely count them out because it doesn't count because it's coming from a white person? >> well, where is this world where we get to tell white people what to do? i'm unfamiliar with that place where you get to command and tell white people what they can and cannot do? white people refer to race all the time. they just don't offer it as being referred to race. it's coded and put into other terms. but this idea that white people can't talk -- the issue is not whether white people have permission to talk about race. the issue is why do white people seem so uninformed about things that black people often know. and those are things that black people often learn from books. you get from learning and reading. it's things he read and things he learned. what i find in media, especially when it comes to talk about

race, they will call me, they will call michaela or the professor. and we'll all sit up and talk about race as if we're the ones that wield racism. >> but we also call mark and their other -- >> yeah, you call mark, certainly. but you know what i mean. but treat it like a black issue. go ahead, mark. >> let me contest a little bit because i think whites are afraid to talk about race. not race but racism and the reason why is because it is so difficult for us to have a realistic conversation about it because one false move, one misstep and all of a sudden we fall right into the crevice we're trying to get out of. i think there's a silver lining with the sterling case. rather than being on the side watching it, almost like a person who is mugged on the street that you walk around, i think sterling, paula deen have shown us that we're going to be actively involved and i think michaela is right. if we take these opportunities

and say these people that are doing it, these billionaires are not going to get away with it, i congratulate an active media and social media that took three or four days to take a billionaire who acted in a bigoted way and take him down. >> why are you disagrees, bomani? >> for a number of different reasons. we talked about suits that were ignored by the media and got picked up because this story was more salacious. the same thing happened to paula deen. people are tripping about whether she said the n word way back when, that was a hiring discrimination suit. when we talk about her career being ended we don't talk about it in the context of the hiring discrimination suit. also, the details of paula deen were so shocking, it seemed to be so antiquated that they were juicy in that way. when we talk about race that is systemic, we have that problem. i reject this idea that white people are afraid of falling into this crevasse. they are simply uninformed on

those issues. i cannot contribute to the woe is me, why won't anyone let white people talk about race? it's just simply not that easy to do. >> thank you very much. we've got to go to break. but go ahead, quickly. my question to you is, because a lot of people are talking and we have to go to break but i'm going to let you finish here. is it a fair criticism or critique because many things we learn as african-americans, we learn through experience and we know that white people in america and black people in america have different experiences. that's not an excuse for white people not to learn but it's not just learn through books. we have an experience that white people don't have. that may make us more prone to knowing about it or to be aware of it than it does the average white person. professor? >> i think white people are just as aware as we are. i think we need to make that clear. mark o'mara is a defense lawyer and i was looking at him in the trayvon martin case as a defense lawyer, not a white man. i thought he did a good job as a defense lawyer because i'm a defense lawyer.

that's what i did. and i think we have to grow up and understand these differences in a way that makes a lot of sense. we're not there yet. and like i said, i've talked to my students about it but they need to understand particularly at a place where minorities are -- in the minority at a place like harvard, that they need to understand that race is a very complicated issue. you better be careful if you're going to tread in that area and you've got to take it like you're going to give it. >> very good points and a great conversation. stay with me, everybody. when we come right back, the conversation about race, we're going to move that to capitol hill where some congressmen are having their own struggles with how to talk about race. we'll be right back. good is setting a personal best before going for a world record. good is swinging to get on base before swinging for a home run. [ crowd cheering ] good is choosing not to overshoot the moon, but to land right on it and do some experiments. ♪ so start your day off good with a coffee that's good cup after cup.

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welcome back, everyone. we're having a very interesting and honest conversation. we're talking about race now. it's a minefield across america, including capitol hill. and the words we use can make all of the difference. for example, mississippi democratic congressman bennie thompson on a new nation of islam radio station this weekend he argued that criticism of president obama is racism. and he went on to blast justice clarence thomas as an uncle tom. joining me is dana bash. dana, you've been listening to this conversation just today. you've had an amazing interview with mississippi congressman bennie thompson who made statements about clarence thomas and other public figures. >> clarence thomas saying that he was an uncle tom, what did you mean by that? >> well, if you look at his

decisions on the court, they have been adverse to the minority community and the people i represent have a real issue with an african-american not being sensitive to those issues. >> reporter: calling him an uncle tom, though, isn't that a racially charged term? >> for some it is, but to others, it's the truth. >> reporter: because, you know, looking at that and hearing that kind of language, that certainly wouldn't be, you know, appropriate if it was coming from somebody who is white. >> but i'm black. >> reporter: so that make it is okay? >> well, you asked me the question and i'm giving you the response. >> now, in that radio interview that you talked about, he also accused mitch mcconnell of making racist comments when you remember several years ago he

said that the political goal that republicans have is to make president obama a one-term president. thompson, again, did not back down on saying that was racially charged. said other presidents weren't treated that way but there was another democratic president who wasn't black who was impeached by republicans. >> so congressman thompson is calling clarence thomas an uncle tom and mitch mcconnell a racist. what is making him so angry? >> he's saying that much of the opposition of president obama is not so much about his policies but about the color of his skin. listen to what he said. >> well, i've been here a long time and i've seen a lot of issues come before congress. i've never seen the venom put forth on another candidate or a president like i have seen with this president. and that's my own opinion. >> reporter: don, i've got to tell you, thompson is not alone. i've had other black lawmakers who have said similar things to me. i even had more than one

white republican lawmaker say to me privately that they believe some of the animous they hear back home is based on race. >> dana, even more amazing is the interview was only minutes after the congressman met with paul ryan about his use of some words last month that a lot of people say are racially insensitive. take a listen. >> we have got this tailspin of culture in our inner cities in particular of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning to value and the culture of work so there is a real cultural problem here that has to be dealt with. >> so what happened in that meeting today? >> ryan immediately backtracked from the phrasing there, talking about men in the inner city and members of the black caucus, you see them there, they met with him, because they wanted a summit of sorts. afterwards i asked ryan if he cleared the air. he said that the point he was

trying to make was that we have to stop marginalizing poor communities. now, don, i can tell you the irony here is that ryan is part of a younger generation of republicans trying to reach out to minorities. he is touring the country to understand what is needed. but he obviously stumbled big time. this goes beyond rhetoric. there is a big, philosophical divide. by all accounts, they did not come close to bridging that divide today. >> dana bash, thank you. appreciate it. >> thanks, don. >> reaction from my guests. paul ryan is doing a lot of work trying to find solutions to urban poverty but he used the words cultural problem. cultural problem when he talked about the, quote, inner city men who don't know the value of work. are those coded words, do you think? >> they are all sort of buzz words and i think they are -- they hurt. they really do hurt because it shows that his ignorance about

race and people who are in a different set of circumstances and i think that needs to be treated differently. i'm a good friend of bennie thompson. i've known him and he has represented mississippi very well. the whole idea that this is a black on black discussion and i have heard that word uncle tom from the time i was growing up as a kid until very recently. so it's a common use of language to in a sense downgrade somebody who is not embracing the race and i think that people have to figure out what can you say, what can't you not say? and i'm really worried that this is going to be a discussion about words. >> is it okay for the congressmen -- he said, i called him uncle tom and i'm black. is that okay? >> i don't think that it's okay because he's black. but uncle tom is real and the question is, can people use that word? if they do, they don't use it as openly as they should. they should to make it clear that there's a difference between them and some other

people. and i think that makes a lot of difference about how we have a discussion about what does uncle tom actually mean? >> let's talk more about the conversations about thompson and uncle tom. is it ever okay? >> i think the thing that we find interesting is we have a discussion about whether it's an appropriate term. and it seems as though to me, i may be mistaken. i don't hear the outcry of someone calling someone an uncle tom coming from black people. it seems to be coming from white people. if you were being called an uncle tom, it is offensive but i don't think that's a racist term that you happen to use. if you call somebody an uncle tom, you better be correct because you know how that goes. >> it seems like only a few years ago nobody thought. i guess many people -- not that nobody thought, the fact that inner city were akin to racial name calling. are we reading too much into language or should we be looking more at intent, do you think? >> i think we're getting caught up in language.

however, if there's anything that brings these conversations to the forefront. if calling someone an uncle tom so we can talk about it and get it on tv, if a sensitive congressman talks about innercity cultural problems and it gets on this program and we start having active conversations, it gets it to the forefront. i think that's most important. i really do. >> i understand what you're saying. but those words, words like uncle tom and the "n" word, those are words as weapons and it's hard to move beyond those words, michaela davis, once someone has called you that. >> yeah, but this is a messy situation and we have to have brave enough to make mistakes and say the wrong words. >> right. >> how long have we been hearing the other narrative? we're having all of these counter narratives and we have to be brave to make the mistake,

hear the words, dissect them, put them in context and then move on. i think we have to be really clear where we are in history, right? so this is a first time for a lot of time -- for a long time that people are actually able to speak publicly and then there's this big public discourse around it. democracy is messy. slavery was messy. civil rights was messy and complicated and diabolical. so how are we supposed to have polite conversations about crimes against humanity that have colored our entire civilization? right? so i think we need to give ourselves some room to make mistakes and say the things that are touch points so we can unpack them and give each other some education. if we're tip toeing around words, we're not going to get through the mess. democracy is a messy process. and we just have to not be cowards around whether a word is going to hurt someone and we need to educate what that word

feels like when you yield it like a weapon or do you just not know? >> uh-huh. stay with me, everyone. we're answering your questions when we come right back. have an impact locally. we're using more natural gas vehicles than ever before. the trucks are reliable, that's good for business. but they also reduce emissions, and that's good for everyone. it makes me feel very good about the future of our company. ♪ crest 3d white whitestrips vs. a whitening pen. i feel like my lips are going to, like, wash it off. these fit nicely. [ female announcer ] crest 3d white whitestrips keep the whitening ingredient in place, guaranteeing professional level results. crest whitestrips. the way to whiten. [ female announcer ] there's a gap out there. ♪ that's keeping you apart from the healthcare you deserve.

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we just had one of those private conversations in the middle of the break and i said, why aren't we having this conversation on television. bomani, what did you say? what was your question to us? >> i was having trouble telling from the previous tenor of the conversation, i thought people were saying that paul ryan was not talking about black people when he was explicitly talking about black people. i was horrified to be honest. i'm glad we're all on the same page. >> i think everyone knows he was talking about black people. especially when he said innercity, that means black people. he doesn't realize that's offensive. >> no, no, no, i don't think that's the case. i think he knows that that means black people and you can't say black people so you have to say something close to black people. he was perfectly aware of what he was doing. >> isn't the most offensive part of it, michaela, not that he's saying inner city, fine, it's that he's saying the lack of wanting to work, of wanting to have a job? >> right. i was much more offended of this

idea that there's this whole culture of black men that don't want to work. and also assuming that we're so stupid that when you say inner city we don't get that that's code for black. i'm much more comfortable with them saying their ignorant things so we can know where to put the work, right? so inner city was -- i haven't heard that since 1976 but we remember it to know that's code for black. the idea that there's a whole culture and generations of black men that don't want to work, that's what i find offensive. >> professor ogletree, does he get any slack for that? >> not at all. i think the reality is that a lot of people talk about race in what they call different ways. i hear people -- and everybody on this panel has heard somebody say, oh, i'm not talking about you. i'm talking about them. and they are talking about black men and i'm one of them and i feel offended when they are talking about me like that. i think there is no easy way to do this. we do have a race problem. black men are trying to work.

they are trying to get a job. they would love to be in their homes. back before we talked about the 21st century, they were in places where they couldn't even go home because, you know, the welfare was given a check to the black woman and if there's a man in the house, oh, my god. we have to, in a sense, build up a black man. i'm glad what the president is doing, this program, my brother's keeper. when i just went to reverend sharpton's program, a 46-year-old black man said, what about me? you're talking about jobs for boys, for girls, for everybody but i'm a 46-year-old guy who wants to work, i'm black, when are you going to put me to work? and i think we have to talk about the whole community. that's very important. >> and african-americans do suffer the highest unemployment rate, the highest unemployment rate. >> absolutely. >> because of historic reasons. >> so mark o'mara, your response to all of this?

>> well, look, if we as a society and as a nation are going to have a conversation about this that really makes some sense, we may have just started but the real conversation begins when we not only say to ryan you are talking about blacks. can we get that on the table and he actually says yes. that's when those conversations can actually begin because these code words that we're talking about don't really get us anything and keep it is on the periphery. it's nice, it's good, somebody will act racist and then we'll condemn them. you're right. it's not getting to the conversations that we have to have about how we're going to affect in my world, i want to affect the criminal justice system because i know if we do it there, we stop breeding a percentage of young black males into the system because when you're in that system, you basically never get out. there's one and there's other

economic systems that we need to work on but i think that the conversations start when we get honest with each other and ryan, as an example, and he's talking about blacks and not these code words would be a nice start. >> here's the thing, though. i think as a journalist who navigates these conversations, no one wants to be -- no one wants to offend everyone. everyone wants to be so polite and i think you bring up a very good point, michaela. we have to start offending each other, whether it's black people offending black people, white people offending black people, we all have to have the tough conversation in order to effect change, michaela. >> yes. we have to not be cowards around where we're limited. we have to see where we're ignorant because we all are. no one got out of this thing scot-free, right. the way this was set up, black people and white people -- we are all interconnected and that's also a conversation, too. we saw the naacp have all kinds of problems around the whole sterling case. so it's not just blacks over here and whites over here. we have to engage repetitiously and continuously because we've been separated repetitiously and continuously for generations. so we're not going to -- this

isn't going to happen in one newscast. we have to keep having the courage. we have to have revolutionary-type conversations and that just means we can't be afraid. >> go ahead, bomani. >> we have to acknowledge the game theory aspects of what we're talking about and it's a prevailing sentiment that as black people, as brown people get more white people by definition wind up getting less, that's why when paul ryan and guys like that use the code it works every time because it appeals to people's fears of losing whatever they have. some people, just the power they have in their regular lives, that's what they're afraid of losing. the step of stopping being polite is, a, not just paul ryan using code. it's crushing paul ryan and guys like that for using the code and then the people who use the code and then interpret it perfectly, we have to stop letting people slide for taking in code and then saying, no, he's just talking about the innercity, not black people.

when they know that's exactly what's being said. >> it's horrible in how it treats black people and poor people. so that's really where his language is. >> they had a meeting today where they addressed the issues that he talked about. isn't that a start? no? >> the congressional black caucus? >> it's bigger than that because the problem is that the issue of race applies to everybody. it's not just poor people. it's rich people. i have the opportunity to represent professor gates junior and wrote a book about it, the presumption of guilt. there is no presumption of guilt in the criminal justice season. but there is a presumption of black men. there were over 200 black men who were stopped by the police in new york just recently and those men had never committed a crime. they were not -- didn't have a record, didn't have a weapon but they were stopped because they were black and we have to stand up, those of us who have the ability to do that, stand up to

say, you can't treat anybody differently. you can't presume that i'm a different way. i can't get a cab in certain places, no matter what suit i'm wearing, if i have my colin powell book in front of me. i have to get a black man or white woman to call down the cab, open the door for me to get in it. and you know the people who are racist? these are folks who are immigrants, immigrants coming and driving cabs and they see me, they see black men, black women in new york, boston, chicago and they'll just drive right by thinking we're going to rob them, take their money. it makes no sense at all. we need to talk about race and it affects everybody, not just the folks who are unemployed, who are gang bangers. it affects everybody, and i think we need to make sure we address that issue in a comprehensive way. and i don't need to be online for it to work. it runs office, so i can do schedules and budgets and even menu changes. but it's fun, too -- with touch, and tons of great apps for stuff like music,

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but, please don't try this at home. because you simply can't do this at home. go and smell the roses! we're keeping the conversation going. back with me, mark o'mara, michaela davis, bomani jones. listen to this.

you know it's become a story when the late night hosts get into the fray. >> this is a true story. donald sterling was actually scheduled to receive a lifetime achievement award from the naacp. but the organization has now called off that ceremony. yeah. it turns out black people don't want to be photographed with him either. >> earlier today he was rushed to the paula deen rehab center in georgia. >> sterling insists he's not a racist. he said some of his best credit cards are black. >> charles, do you see it as positive or negative when a serious issue like racial bigotry becomes late night fodder for comedians? >> i think it's positive for this reason. people are laughing, but they're paying attention. i think the comedians around the air -- i'm not laughing, but they're in a sense bringing up issues that are global issues, that everybody needs to talk about, and you'll hear it -- the next day you'll hear it on the radio, you hear people talking about it.

but we need to have serious conversations about race and class and gender and sexual orientation because we've ignored those things and they have been overwhelming us and we are greater separation in the 21st century than it was in the 1950. it's just crazy. >> michaela, i want to get your take on this. arsenio hall took a picture and the caption reads "ebony and bigotry." the joke is now, sterling himself is on instagram with a black man. what do you think? >> i thought it was genius. there really is power in political satire. we've seen it throughout history and particularly again because millennials and young people will respond to that and hopefully it will incite them to have the conversation because i think we're really seeing a divide in one group of people that believe in equality and diversity and this whole other group. and we're having this cultural war, it seems. >> michaela, you're going to get

upset because i'm going to ask your question to bomani. how much has social media shined a spotlight on this topic? i know you're passionate about it but go ahead and answer, bomani? >> i think people want to pack themselves on the back for every revolution that they start. i don't know how you can tell what would have blown up on its own and what did because of social media. i can tell because of the donald sterling story, that it would have blown up on its own. i'll always believe that there are other stories that do but on this one i just don't think that happened. >> all right. go ahead, michaela. i've got to get mark in, but go ahead. >> what happened, happened. it went through tmz, right? >> right. >> so the power of that vehicle is very different than if it was on a news site and then the constant, hundreds of thousands of voices adding to it, you can't deny the power and the speed in which social media will move an issue forward. it's just undeniable.

>> mark o'mara, do you think that because of the way that this tape was, you know, gotten, that it will have an effect on how people feel about it or -- you know, because people are questioning the legality of the tape. >> it may not ever make it into a courtroom because it wasn't properly gained and it's not going to be admissible. i don't think people who are now talking about what it stands for matter at all and i think they are going to look at it and say, he is who he is. wherever the tape came from. comedy is a great way to talk about these things because it's an easy way to talk about uncomfortable subjects but at least we're talking about it. >> professor, i'm going to give you the last word on this. what do you make of this whole thing? >> well, i think it's a very sad situation for all of us to have to talk about it. but let me say a word about social media. no matter what you say, don, or any of us say, everybody will be responding to this program because they can do it anonymously. i get all sorts of hate mail and

i enjoy it. i always say god bless you, thank you very much. because you have to respond to it. >> or say nothing, is what i do. thank you, panel. lustrous, radiant color that looks 10 years younger. today. [ female announcer ] new age defy color from clairol. today. first the cookie at check-in. then a little weekend to remember. join us for the celebration package. with sparkling wine, breakfast and a late checkout. doubletree by hilton.

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come close, everyone. take a listen here. we've talked a lot tonight about race. it's a conversation as difficult as it is that america needs to have. when it comes to men like donald sterling and cliven bundy, most of us can agree that what they said really crosses the line. they don't appear to want to have a conversation about america and black and white. they appear to have already made up their minds. see where that got them? it is true that what we think or what we say in private are often very different from what we say out loud in public and the words -- very words we use can get in the way or can get us in trouble. words like the "n" word, words

like uncle tom. those are words that are weapons. they either leave us speechless. tell each other the hard truth, to be honest with each other about our feelings, to allow each other some leeway when talking about race and racism and don't forget to leave room to listen. i'm don lemon. thanks for watching tonight. "ac 360" starts right now. good evening, 8:00 p.m. here in new york, nearly 60 miles an hour winds in southern california, more than a foot and a half of rain on the gulf coast, and breaking news from shore to shore tonight. out west the wind is fanning a wildfire that began in the san bernardino national forest, now taking aim. forcing many to flee, back east, up and down the coast, the earth gave way. opening up, swallowing up, a line of parked cars some of them on railroad tracks below. take a look at the rescue here in mobile, alabama.