monica lewinsky telling her story to "vanity fair." she has tried to avoid the scandal with president bill clinton. in a few minutes we will talk to donna rice hughes whose relationship with then senator gary hart derailed his presidential campaign. we will talk to her about how she successfully recovered from that scandal and what advice she might have for monica lewinsky. first i want to remind you what lewinsky revealed to "vanity fair." from the arms of the president to the pages of "vanity fair" magazine. she has found her voice and she has plenty to say. in her tell-all essay for the magazine she says it's time to burn the beret and bury the blue dress. world's most famous intern opening up to vanity fair about her affair with president clinton. the scandal it created in 1998 and what she calls the global

humiliati humiliation. now 40, she is determined to have a different ending to her story and hoping to give a purpose to her past. lewinsky says she was inspired to speak out by tyler clemente, the rutgers university student who jumped to his death in 2010. he was humiliated after being caught in a web camera kissing another man in his dorm room. lewinsky tells "vanity fair" his story brought her to tears, that after her affair, she, too, had strong suicidal temptations. she is hoping to help others in their darkest moments. in her essay, she dishes on the affair and the ugly aftermath. i, myself, deeply regret what happened between me and president clinton adding it was a consensual relationship and -- in order to protect. the time the president tried to protect himself too. >> i did not have sexual relations with that woman.

miss lewinsky. >> reporter: but seven months later, president clinton spoke to the american people again. this time, a different story. >> indeed, i did have a relationship with miss lewinsky that was not appropriate. in fact, it was wrong. >> reporter: monica lewinsky spoke with abc's barbara walters about that. >> i felt like a piece of trash. i felt -- i felt dirty and i felt used and i was disappointed. >> reporter: we haven't heard much from lewinsky since then. this interview with larry king on cnn in 2002 was one of her last. >> was there a little, like,, you know, flirtatious thing going on? >> sure. there had been this flirtation and that really was where it began and that's where it started and from there, it sort of the -- >> took off? >> that is the match lit.

>> reporter: silent for more than a decade, she is quick to note in her essay that the clintons did not pay her off to be quiet. though she has done little professional over the years, besides promote her own handbag line, it wasn't for lack of trying. in fact, she can't even get a job. after getting her masters degree at the london school of economics, she told the magazine because of what potential employers to tackfully referred to as my history, i was never quite right for the position. i want to bring in someone who knows what it's like to recover and thrive after a political sex scandal. back in 1988, donna rice was photographed sitting on the lap of presidential hopeful gary hart on his boat, monkey business, essentially derailing his campaign as a result. donna rice hughes joins me now. donna, nice to see you. i want to ask you, first, why do you think monica lewinsky is talking now after all this time?

>> i think it's hard for me to determine why but i can certainly understands she wants to, that she wants to share who she is and to be taken seriously. so i have to applaud her for being quiet all of this time and avoiding the temptation and there are so many temptations to lash out, to blame, to exploit the situation and she did go underground for a very long time and she probably feels like she needs to, in her own way, set the record straight so that she can move forward. >> she wrote this essay to "vanity fair." i'm sure had you a chance it read some of it. >> i have. >> we reported on it there. what do you make of what she wrote and how it's being received? >> it really rang true to me. i could feel her pain and her frustration and many of the things that she said and she experienced. i had been through a lot of that myself, and so i -- i really felt for her but i have to say

i'm very disappointed at the backlash that she is getting. you know, i wish that we could, as a nation, especially women, show her the fame grace and compassion and the opportunity for second chance that we did with president clinton. >> you spoke out fairly quickly after what happened with you. why did you choose to speak out so soon? >> well, i really didn't speak out that quickly. i stayed underground as best i could but there were a lot of people selling my story over and over again and then i got a call from barbara walters and she won my heart. and she said, donna, they are treating you like a criminal. and she talked me into coming on her show and i did. i didn't share any of the details of what had happened to me. only i wanted people to see who i was and it was very different from the public perception and then eventually i went underground. so i chose not to exploit my

notoriety either because i wanted the pain to count for something but i was really in the media relentlessly without my participation for about a year and a half until that particular election was over. i was just going to say then i stayed underground for about seven years. i didn't realize at the time i would be underground for that long, but i knew i didn't want to exploit the situation and i wanted it all to count for something bigger than me and i didn't exactly what that meant. in a recent interview i gave to "the daily beast," that i chose to go back to my faith and that was so important to me. and following god is a real faith walk because you don't know where he is going to lead. but for me having to reestablishing credibility and being taken seriously and all of those things were very important to me and i was very blessed that eventually that began to happen in my life. >> and think about all that you went through and how you say you were treated.

i mean, just imagine for a second if your case would have happened in the age of social media. monica lewinsky says she was first to experience this global humiliation, if you will, between the drudge report and others getting it out, getting her story out there. do you ever think about that? >> well, i do. and i have to say i imagine it's a lot worse, but for -- in my particular situation, this was the first time in 1987 that the mainstream media went tabloid and viral. that had not happened before. it was a red herringing kind of an event so everything was out of krenel no one, including the media, knew what to do with it. it was a story that wouldn't die and so in some ways, it was -- well, not in some ways. it was very difficult for me as well, but it would have lingered probably much longer had it been social media.

but i think each now in this day and age, we realize what social media is and anybody can say anything and have a voice and sometimes those voices are credible and sometimes they are not. but when you have stories going viral in tabloid and main street media at a time where there are only five major networks and the newspapers and the news weeklies across the country and they are responding that way, that credibility factor really has the power to shape perception and in an extraordinary way. and she did experience that too then at internet and social media, so she had it in so many ways much worse than i did. >> yeah. i think a lot of people, certainly those who followed what happened with you they are probably asking right now, did she ever talk to gary hart after all this went down and does she still keep in touch with him? >> are you asking me? >> sure. >> no, i'm not talking with him. i did speak with him once and that was quite a while ago.

interestingly enough, it was during the bill clinton/lewinsky situation and he called to ask for my forgiveness and i told him i had forgiven him and that was all in the past and i wished him well. >> all right. very interesting. i'm sure because a lot of people would probably wonder about that. we would like to know, of course, what advice you have for monica lewinsky. we hope you'll answer that question after this very quick break. ♪ feet...splashing. better things than the joint pain and swelling of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. if you're trying to manage your ra, now may be the time to ask about xeljanz. xeljanz (tofacitinib) is a small pill, not an injection or infusion, for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz is an ra medicine that can enter cells and disrupt jak pathways, that comes with ra. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections,

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monica lee win ski is back in the spotlight this affair and vanity fair talked about how hard it was for her to reclaim her life after the incident. no nobody, most man, life has not been easy. donna rice hughes has not only thrived but survived after linking to former presidential candidate gary hart. welcome back, donna. you told "the daily beast" a lot of men have gone through these

things and the women get crushed and it feels like you're being raped in front of the world. why do you think men and women are treated so differently after a scandal like this? >> well, i think that there's just a general double standard to a large degree and these kinds of situations, usually it's the man that is the public figure who already has established credibility and usually is fairly popular, like president clinton, for instance. and they also have a circle of people around them that can close the wagons around and protect them to a degree. whereas, the woman often is not known and so she comes into the spotlight with all of this around hearn no one really to protect her. you don't have a lawyer, a pr person or anything else and it could be very, very qufg. but i do believe that there is a double standard and we have a tendency to trash women in these kinds of situations, rather than see them for the whole incomplete person that they are

and that happens easily when this perception surfaces so quickly and these kinds of situations like she was in and like i was in. >> monica has said years ago, she said that she was hoping to get married and then she went to london and the london school of economics and certainly tried to make a life for herself. >> she did. >> what was the tick for you. you started this successful foundation and you've created a thriving business and a thriving life. how did you do it? >> well, it's funny. people have said, she must have had a great pr person. i say it's a god thing. not so get to religious on it, but it really was. i knew i could return to my faith and that i could rely on the promises of the bible and that god will have everything work forgot took good as long as i was seeking him and following him and i didn't know where that would lead me. seven years underground to the day the scandal broke, i got married to a wonderful man, jack hughes, and that also brought me to washington and to work with the organization enough is

enough. now, they were fighting illegal pornography and print and broadcast before the internet. i thought this is a sexualized topic. i knew i was supposed to do it for a number of reasons. within a couple of weeks of starting we saw the beginnings of sexual predators and child pornographers exploiting the internet prior to the web and then i knew i knew this is why i was there. i had a public platform already. the media was looking for me to speak a long time. i said i'm not going to speak about that but speak about something we can get out in front of and save and help and protect so many children so that put me back in the spotlight with the media and with congress and it's kind of like it was an odd thing but i was put back on the horse that threw me and, in that, there was a lot of healing and i've had the opportunity to testify before congress. i served on a congressional

commission apied appointed by t senate of all things. i said in the article my mom and my grandmother and here we are coming up on mothers and got rest them. they are in heaven right now. they said before you make any decisions, donna, get your life straight with god and that has proven to be the wisest decision i have ever made. >> what about monica? >> i don't know what her path is going to be but i know is there a plan and purpose for her if she will follow god's way and i'm happy to befriend her. i would love to. there are a lot of people that can come around her and this is one of the things i tell anybody going through a hard time. get some people around you who have no agenda but your best interests. they are not going to make a commission if you make a decision to do this or if you do a book or you do whatever.

people who can really walk with you and figure out what your priorities are because you can run with something like this and make a ton of money. i had madonna's manager say we could have a blast with this and you'll be a multimultimillionaire and cbs say we want you as a tv anchor or an actress. we don't care about all of that stuff. but it was also quconfusing so didn't know what to do so di nothing. i think she has a lot of choices ahead of her now and i would encourage her to just exercise wisdom and get some very wise counsel. >> donna rice hughes, thank you very much. appreciate the advice as well and your time. >> thank you. a pair of conservative would-be tv hosts aren't afraid to speak their mind and now it's costing them potentially life changing opportunities. i asked jason and benjamin david whether they had any regret. >> the only regret is america is not going to get to see my wife

on tv because she is smoking. >> we have some great footage and just, i mean, our show is really shaping up to be fun. >> they say they are not mad at hgtv for canceling their show so who do they blame? i'll ask them next. cut! [bell rings] this...is jane. her long day on set starts with shoulder pain... ...and a choice take 6 tylenol in a day which is 2 aleve for... ...all day relief. hmm. [bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!"

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we have seen a time and time again. celebrities or companies be grilled in the arena of public opinion.

the latest to fall twin brothers jason and david benefitham planned stars of the "flip it forward" set to premiere in october on hgtv. wyatt wing watch posted a recording of david talking to a talk show host about sexuality and agenda attacking the nation, hgtv pulled the show. i asked the pair to address the comments and who they feel is responsible. >> the comments that i've made are never hateful toward people and if you ever even hear me -- i'm a history buff. you if ever hear me talking about nazi, germany, it was about the church's silence with the concord act and not speaking up for the jews is the same thing as the church's silence in america today not speaking up in the unborn and not in the face of an agenda. the only relation there. i have never, nor will i ever, condone hatred toward individuals. i mean, for heaven's sake, death

for a homosexual is just evil. i would be the first to stand in line to take a bullet for someone that is gay. this is just ridiculous. >> so why did you say those things then to begin with? >> well, i don't -- first of all, i don't know what you're referencing and i do not condemn anybody lying that. i don't say that. what has been posted on the internet and what we have read and what folks have referenced back to us is nothing but a smear campaign, just pulling things out of the air, including comments that my dad has said that they now send to me and even on many interviews, interviewers have said, listen, we know that a lot of the words that are getting attributed to you are actually coming from your daened from other people. >> who is behind the smear campaign? >> we believe many different people are, but it doesn't matter because we are not

victims here. i don't want to paints ourselves as victims here. the truth of the matter is the folks writing these things have the right to write them but it is important to get the truth out and, secondly, hgtv has the right to either believe or not believe the reports. elevate, they chose to believe the reports or even if they didn't believe the reports, they felt that those reports had done enough damage to advertisers that it wouldn't be worthy that our show would not be worthy of their network or they simply said, you know what? i think it's best that we just part ways. >> you keep talking about this agenda, though, of people who don't -- you keep talking about this agenda of people who disagree with you. what agenda is that? >> it's an agenda that seeks to silence -- or demand silence for anyone that disagrees with it. and that is the thing. we have got two people believing and if we can equally believe

that is okay. not only can you not believe that but you have to accept my beliefs. that is the agenda. the agenda to silence those that disagree with it and that starts with christians. it's historic but we are seeing that today in america and that is one of the things that i specifically addressed in my comments were during a prayer rally where i was calling the church to repent of the hypocrisy that exists in the church and i mean by the church, christian circles that we can easily point the finger at many folks that may be walking in sin and say i'm walking in sin, yet, we have sin in our own lives and so that was the context of my comments and so this -- this agenda, though, is what seeks silence unless you agree with it. >> i mean, first of all, a lot of people who might look at your agenda and say, wait a minute. you're the one with the offensive agenda. what do you say to those people? >> our agenda is simple.

to love god and to love people, and, therefore, because we love god and love people, folks are allowed to believe and speak boldly for what they believe without fear of losing their job. we, on the other hand, believe and we spoke boldly about what we believed and we lost our job. that is a problem. >> but in terms of those trying to silence you, i mean, you're on national television right now. you're still out speaking. there is clearly -- i mean, your free speech is still alive and well. nobody is silencing you. >> that's the beauty of america. it's the desire of the agenda to silence. it doesn't mean that the agenda is working. obviously, it's not working right now. it's being very ineffective. that is the beauty of the country that we live in because people, such as yourself, bring us on the networks and give us a voice and we are very thankful for that. >> should the benham brothers lost their show on hgtv or should we all watch what we say

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welcome back. more with our panel in just a moment. first, a 16-year-old girl in florida making her mark by graduating from high school a few weeks after she graduated from college. grace bush was home-schooled until she was 13 and that is when she started taking both high school and college classes through a program at florida atlantic university. >> i started when i was 13 at broward college and i also took my classes throughout the summer so i was able to finish it before four years. >> at 2 years old she was reading and i was totally shocked. >> i would eventually like to become chief justice of the

united states. >> grace has her bachelor's degree in criminal justice and plans to get her law degree so she can keep making her mark. you just heard before the break from david and jason benham host of an upcoming hgtv show but america won't see the show after controversial comments caused the network to pull it from its fall lineup. so let's talk it over with my panel samantha shocker and lz granderson and margaret hoover and brian claypool. lz, i'm going to start with you on this one. should their comments have cost them the show, do you think? >> i don't really think their comments necessarily cost them the show. i think the fact that their brand seemed to represent something that the hgtv audience didn't like and hgtv realized there was more attention being pointed towards their overall brand and made a business

decision. i think it's naive to think that solely saying those words got them kicked off. if she said those words and still had sponsors for hgtv, that would have been but they thought it was damaging for their brand and not draw an answer so they made a business decision. >> what is so interesting, samantha, according to the benham's, my interview with them, they say that hgtv knew about their outspoken beliefs so why do you think the network is responding now to all of this? >> it's surprising because you would think with everything that happened with "duck dynasty" they would foresee something like this happening but i think an oversight on their part and to lz's point this is a business decision. in this day and age with social media and call to action campaigns we, the people, are the voice and with hgtv and their demographic they have to appease them. if this were, let's say, an openly ga couple on perhaps

maybe a religious affiliated network, they would have to respond to that demographic and perhaps their pushback and they need to make a profit because to them that is all that matters. >> brian, david and jason's father phillip benham is an evangelical christian minister and made controversial comments in the past. do you think his track record might have played a part in what happened to his sons? >> it's possible but it shouldn't have. shame on hgtv. we are going from reality tv to rigged tv unless you have an absolute spiritual social political view that aligns with a tv station, you can't have a show? i completely disagree with that, randy. here is why. there is a difference between having a biblical belief about a lifestyle and actually hating somebody. i didn't hear any of these benham brothers say i'm going to hurt a gay person or i can't stand them so much that i'm going to do something really bad against them. they didn't say that.

they just had a biblical believe and voiced it and shame on hgtv. >> margaret, you want to weigh in here? >> yeah. look, i agree with lz on the politics but i couldn't disagree more with the way this had all gone down. i think in a day where same-sex marriage is skyrocketing. more and more people are in favor of it and more and more people changing their minds and opening their hearts and talking about it. i think the public and the viewers of hgtv would get a lot more out of an open conversation about it rather the inclusion we have seen over and over again. i think it's a deeply liberal impulse and doesn't represent sort of the best principles of a free society that respects free speech. i am deeply in favor of same-sex marriage and i'm a republican who works to pass same-sex marriage, the last passion of people who are proofed to same-sex marriage are republicans and christian evangelicals. we can't have them thinking they are nailed as bigots every time we open up a conversation for

them. a better chance having them have a show and try to place a same sex couple of in a house. >> which they said they were open to. >> the country would learn more about the issue if you see that play out rather than silencing them. >> listen. we have a lot more to talk about. free speech or hate speech where do we draw the line and who is allowed to speak their mind and should we pay a price when we do? we will be right back. the other timess differn i tried to quit. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. it's a non-nicotine pill. chantix reduced my urge to smoke. that helped me quit smoking. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix. don't take chantix if you've had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. if you develop these, stop chantix and see your doctor right away as some can be life-threatening. tell your doctor if you have a history of heart

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twin brothers lost their hgtv show after a recording show anti-gay views but they say they are not upset at the network that fired them. their beef is what they call the gay agenda, that bully they say the network. i asked him if they thought this was a free speech issue and about the consequences for holding what many call an unpopular opinion. >> this doesn't step on our free speech. here is what i mean by that. we are free to speak in america. i'm sitting in the comfort of a great studio in charlotte, north carolina, speaking what i believe. i'm not going to jail. i don't have people carting my kids off. this is usa. right now, what is happening is we have bullying in the free market. that's where it's happening right now. and so because i've spoken my beliefs now i've lost my job. that is the danger because it's not going to stop there. bullies generally don't stop, they continue to move. ultimately if jason and i and others don't take a stand then our children will be forced to

remain silent and will not have that freedom of speech. >> this is precisely why we have gone on the record and tell everybody our hearts go out to hgtv. yeah, in the moment where they had an opportunity to stand with us as individuals, they chose not to but we feel as though they were bullied into that and that is not right. >> let me bring my panel back in. these guys think that hgtv has bullied. margaret, do you think this steps on their first amendment rights? >> i don't but they got that right. they are on to something. there has been a very swift condemnation of them and others of mazillo and duck dine synast. some supporters would rather see dissenters go away and we don't do any good by trying to win people over and silencing opposing point of view.

as a pro same-sex marriage advocate i would rather have those conversations because we know that is how you win people over instead of this liberal yum pulse to silence and punish people who disagree with you. >> brian, for the record, i mean, hgtv responded with only this. they have decided not to move forward with the benham brothers series. that's it. does this set a precedent, do you think? >> this is a horrible precedent. what a copout to suggest that hgtv a was bullied. that is ridiculous. this is a colossal hypocrisy. they are fine to go on this show and then there is one piece of social media that looks potentially incriminating and they are kicked off the show without any due process, and there was no investigation done by hgtv. they didn't interview the benham brothers or their father to see if they are condemning the gay lifestyle. this could have been a teachable

moment like your other guest said that could have had a show and had gay couples in there and seen how the benham brothers dealt with that and to possibly tolerate that lifestyle. >> lz? >> i can't take this any more, i can't. >> jump in. >> i've been trying to be very polite. being gay is not a lifestyle. it's an orientation. >> right. >> of course. >> i understand that your guest may have a certain, you know, view of christianity and the interpretation of what the scripture says in regards to people who happen to be lgbt. i just dropped my son off at prom so i'm not sure that is part of the gay lifestyle or not but if it is sign me up for that lifestyle. i go to church and i'm not sure if it part of a gay lifestyle so if it is sign me up for that as well. this constant portraying lgbt people as living a cavalier lifestyle as opposed to real lives and who our being is like

our skin color and our eye color is disyourful and tells me a lot how he views this particular subject matter because he is viewing the people we are talking about disrespectful. >> lz, don't you think he we are having a better conversation now talking about and if the hgtv show had stayed on the air, they could have taken -- tackled the issue and educated people. don't you think better to have the conversation? >> first of all, hgtv's audience happens to be one that i don't believe is interested in learning about social justice and cultural issues. they want to know how to decorate your show so i'm not sure that chances the one to have a social commentary. >> i think you have to talk about it everywhere. >> can i jump in here, please? >> sure. >> to your point, i think it's really important and why this is such a highly sensitive issue being gay rights is because so many people are categorizing it

as a religious, moral issue when it should be categorized as a human rights issue and there's many people in the church that are christian, that are pro gay rights and are advocates for gay rights and i think it's actually immoral to shame and condemn someone for their sexual orientation and it's not coincide that gay, lesbian, and transgender teams are four times more likely to commit suicide than your average teen, and i think that is an alarming statistic and why people are paying such attention to this issue because discrimination can be dangerous. >> agreed. >> happen to be christian, by the way. i have plenty of gay friends! i have plenty of gay friends and i have no bias at all against them. this is about an opportunity we had a teachable moment to bring awareness to this so that hopefully people can be more tolerant and acceptable and see

that we are all human beings! >> okay, listen. much more to talk about in the next block about donald sterling. he thought he was free to speak his mind too and then tapes of him talking to v. stiviano go public and within days he was in danger of losing a billion dollar basketball team. who draws the lines on these comments and who should be in trouble when they go public? that ahead.

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we just discussed the would be hgtv hosts who are paying a price for sharing their beliefs. on the west coast the donald sterling is showing no sign of fading. that have now jeopardized his ownership of the l.a. clippers. the new voice on the recording says je says jealously sparked his recent remarks. take a listen. >> so he thought. my panel is back along with terrence moore who is a

contributor to mlb.com. lightning round and make it quick. more topics to talk about. who draws the line and decides what is to which in terms of public comments? >> first of all, i think that before donald sterling starts any conversation, he should ask four words. am i being recorded? you know, this guy, besides the fact of being a racist, as far as picking friends, he's not so good or even girlfriends here. the line draws with the individual knowing who he is talking to, number one. the second thing, everybody is making a big deal here about the fact that, well, these were private conversations. you shouldn't get in trouble for this. but this goes beyond that. the nba disagrees but he is also being punished for 33 years of being a knuckle head. this was just the big thing that came out. remember now, besides the lawsuit, god knows what else he has been saying through the years in private to other people

even for the owners. >> so, samantha, what do you think? >> well, gosh. i think it is alarming and scary that our private conversations can be broadcast. so, remember, everybody, be strong in your convictions and proud of them because they could be broadcast! and i think this is a perfect example that loose lips sink ships and he deserves these consequences. i don't think that the nba and i think the commissioner did a great job that they are are not going to tolerate racism and this isn't anything new. people here in los angeles, he is known to be a racist who has been a number of allegations and for him having that plantation slavery style mentality and i think this recent phone call was staged. >> lz? >> i agree. especially the last part about it being staged. look. remember that last part where he said no one will hear but you and me. it was like he was trying to say, this is being taped without

me knowing. i mean, the fact of the matter is that way back in 1982, the nba had a group of owners who tried to get him out because of racist things that he said leading up to the draft and around samson. 1982. the real question is, you know, not whether or not, you know, he should be forced to sell his team but why for 30 plus years commissioner stern who was before silver and now silver, who worked for commissioner stern for at least 20 years, why have they allowed him to stick around as long as they have allowed him to stick around? that is the real question to ask. >> i have news for all of you. michael sam was just drafted. >> yea! >> by the st. louis rams. >> yea! >> awesome. >> we want to talk about that. as you know he was the southeastern conference defense player of the year last season for missouri. he came out as a gay player in media interviews this year. he is going to be the first openly ga nfl player and we are going to talk about that right after this break.

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breaking news. we are just learning just in to cnn that michael sam has been drafted by the st. louis rams. this was the seventh round of the nfl draft. it was supposed to end about an hour from now, so not at the very, very bottom of this draft situation but let's go back to our panel and get a reaction first to margaret hoover. what do you think? >> you and i were right here on the set and we put our hands up. i put my hands up. i won't speak for you. very excited and enthusiastic. i think a good day against the backdrop what happened to the nba recently and good news for the nfl but the point is here that he was drafted because he is an excellent football player. he was s.e.c. defensive player of the year. he would have been the only one not to have been drafted actually in history, got in the

seventh round. the anticipation was probably very high but great for michael sam because he is an excellent player and also be a ground breaking moment for the nfl and a ground breaking season. >> he said he wanted to be treated as an nfl player, as a football player and judged as a football player and not a gay athlete and not why he wanted to be drafted. lz, what is your take on this? >> well, it's a good situation for him in st. louis because of the coach there. jeff fisher is someone who is a strong coach, a strong presence in the locker room and a strong personality in the media in terms of what they were allowed to happen and not happen surrounding his team. you know, there was some chatter about possibly going to, you know, like the jets. i know some people were excited maybe the jets would draft him but a bad situation. not the same sort of control in the locker room. not the same sort of control with patriot and that could have been a very difficult situation. so assuming he makes the team. just because you're drafted doesn't mean you make the team. assuming he makes the team there will be interest because it's historical but jeff fisher is the kind of coach that could

purr tail that and help us stay focused in on football. >> samantha, do you think teams were worried this might be a media distraction? >> i don't know. with the nfl, i mean, they are no stranger to controversy from some players being convicted rapists or with domestic violence or michael vick, so i think they are very savvy in the pr realm. to be honest, i think this has been a great moment for them to adopt many policies to embrace openly gay athletes and gay coaches which they have. so i really do commend the nfl. you know what? he is a fantastic player. he has -- everyone has already stated and players should be evaluate by their caliber of athleticism and their game. >> i think everybody should be

for any prejudices. i think michael sam should have been drafted higher up. why wait until the seventh round for him to be drafted? i do believe we need a full fledged investigation of all sports to clean the deck and maybe sure there is no anti-gay bias or any racial prejudices. >> terrence, was this a football decision or anything to do with his sexuality? >> it's a combination of a lot of things. this is a near perfect for him if he makes the team. remember, he played at missouri. where is st. louis in missouri. he has played in that same building. the st. louis rams have needed all of the star power that they could get lately because it's not been a very good franchise. it's a franchise that needs pass rushers. he's a pass rusher. people talk about this being a guy not quite a defensive end and not quite a linebacker but in addition to jeff fisher as l.z. pointed out accurately is a

wonderful coach for any player, i mean, he is a player's coach. they also have a defensive coordinator named gregg williams who likes to blitz. so if you're a tweener who is 6, 265 pounds which michael sam is which is kind of small as a defensive end and you blitz an awful lot, it's a perfect fit and he is the guy that has proven he can get to the quarterback. last year, he led the s.e.c. in sacks and also tackles for losses. so if he makes the team, this could be a huge pickup for the rams and even for the national football league. >> l.z., what kind of impact do you think this might have on other players and maybe those who are considering coming out? because michael sam has talked about saying he has heard from others. >> you know, i've been tracking this conversation, you know, for well over ten years. you know, me and many others who have worked in this sort of

advocates player that than be denied than coming out of the closet while still playing and what has come to pass. if you check back and you start to look at the landscape of division i you're seeing more athletes of all sorts of sports coming out. i think what this would do is simply encourage me collegiate athletes to live their truth and not fearful of that. as far as those veterans maybe they will find encouragement seeing michael sam and jason collins who is playing in the nba playoffs right now, maybe they will be encouraged by their presence and come out as well. >> is this good pr for the st. louis rams? is this showing goodwill? >> look. i don't think they are going to say that they made this decision based on his sexual orientation. they will say it because it was a smart decision for their team. i do think there is an underskurunde undercurrent of good pr they will get from it and probably bad pr but mostly good pr because that is where the hearts

and minds of most americans are. >> samantha, how do you think the team and fellow players will react to this? >> for the most part, people have embraced and praised him and they should. of course, there is always going to be some pushback but what we have seen with him and with jason collins, the majority of the people are embracing this and i do think this is the right step and the right direction and it really is a representation of how much more tolerant we really are as a society, especially when it comes to the nfl and the nba. >> brian, why do you think, why the seventh round? >> i personally think he should have been drafted higher. i don't want be cynic here but it being a die-hard clippers fan and season ticket holder and living in 20 years of racism with an owner in los angeles, you know, i have some doubts. i mean, why did all of these other teams pass on him for six rounds? he is a phenomenal football player. the best thing that michael sam can do is show everybody wrong,

make the rams be a starting linebacker and make the pro bowl and then maybe we will have less discussion about sexual orientation for professional football players in the future. >> l.z. -- >> if i could just -- >> sure. >> i was going to just add. you know, i think it's also important to also note that, you know, sure, we can definitely, you know, think that homophobia was involved in the decision making but we can't overlook the fact he did not have a particularly good combine performance. and the nfl gms have a history of missing it. you know, some of the greatest players we have ever seen play this game weren't even drafted. i'm talking about the kurt warner's and warren moons and talking about guys like wes welker. so it's not as if they get it right every time any way. you can certainly say homophobia was involved. he didn't have a good combine performance and sometimes the nfl just misses it. >> can i add a point? >> terrence, what do you think? do you think the nfl felt any pressure to draft him?

>> what i was going to point out, i've been covering professional sports since the mid 1970s and one of the dirty little secrets is there have always been gay tlerts for all of these teams. i don't think this is going to be as big of a story as people are thinking it is. we are making a big deal of it because he is the first guy to come out. hi a bunch a couple of months ago with a prominent player when plays on a prominent team in the nfl through the '80s and '90s. he pointed out to me what i already knew that this team had at least two or three gay players everybody knew about and that as the player pointed out to me, nobody cared, as long as they performed which is what they did. so that is the bottom line, that if michael sam gets out there and proves to be the codefense player of the year that he was in the s.e.c., which i fully expect he will do then this is going to become a side story, maybe not this season, but over time, it's going to just be in the background. >> terrence, you know baseball.

when do you think we will see an openly gay baseball player professional? >> that's a good question. now that we have this and we have already seen signs already that people are coming out more and more, it could be sooner than people think. >> l.z., if you were writing the headline tomorrow, what would it be? >> johnny manziel still in cleveland. ha ha. i definitely agree with -- as a matter of fact vince lombardi talked about openly gay players on his team. you know, going back even further when terrence was covering sports. and so, you know, it's been my experience, you know, talking with a lot of guys who happen to be closet is that it's not so much about what goes on inside the locker room, but whether or not the pressure from outside the locker room would be too much for that team to withstand. i think ultimately that will be the test for the st. louis rams. once the media starts to pay attention to them, do they have the infrastructure in place to still be a successful team? and as i said earlier, i know for sure they have a head coach

who knows how to handle the media and knows how to handle his locker room. >> in speaking of locker rooms. how tough do you think it's going to be for him? >> well, listen. they got to keep their quarterback upright. sam bradford has been getting his butt kicked basically since he got in the league and so i have to think that team has, you know, a lot of things they need to worry about and as long as michael sam continues to go in there and bust his butt and do the exact same things he did when he was the top college player, he really won't be the focus. the focus will be about that offensive line, about how they compete in the toughest division in football. i mean, there's so many on the field things they have to worry about. if they spend too much time thinking about michael sam and whether or not he is checking them out in the locker room then they are going to be lost. >> plus, here is something else to consider. this is a guy, this cannot be overstated. besides the fact being the codefense player of the year in the s.e.c. which is the toughest

conference, this is a guy was so respected by his teammates in missouri, he was the team captain, okay? we are not talking about a slouch team in missouri. missouri went to the cotton bowl and has done very well the last few years. the start of that team was this guy here, you cannot find one player for that missouri team that says anything badly about him and granted that college but you can also project to the pros that this will be about the same thing. >> so, smarnt, what do you think this means for the nfl and it's profile? feather in the cap? >> well, i do think that you know, they are more tolerant than people give them credit for. i talked to my neighbor today who is a dear friend who used to play for the nfl quite some time and he shared with me in the locker room and within the nfl, there have been to one of your other panelist points, a number of openly gay athletes within their realm but we the public weren't aware of it. i think we are making more of a

big deal of it than perhaps the players and the nfl are not. not to say there is not discrimination and pushback but i think, overall, i think there is it a lot of tol raerance her >> how will this be picked up? >> hopefully, without much fan fare. he is a trail blazer and deserves credit for that. l.z. said hopefully what will this do send a message or ripple down effect to the college players and high school players they can live their truth earlier because they don't have to be afraid of choosing to be gay or choosing their dream in sportsmanship and professional sports. that, hopefully, will be actually what does trickle down in society. >> l.z., i'm curious how you think he is going to took eto handle it. he is pretty understated guy and hasn't made a lot of media fan fare and hasn't given a ton of

interviews. >> he is being handled by howard brackman who is one of the most brilliant publicists we have today. he knows what is doing and how much exposture. he hat perfect publicist working with him. that being said his publicist won't be with him once the cameras hit the field after practice and not with him after games and so, hopefully, the person you see in front of the cameras right now will continue to be that polished person and handle the situation appropriately. if he didn't play well, own up to it and if he plays well, you know, deflect the compliment and credit his teammates. that's how you win a locker room over and how you have to be worthy of in the nfl. >> to add to that point, going into this nfl draft, michael sam had more followers on twitter

than any of these potential draftees except for the quarterbacks. we know the big one, manziel was number one. then you had a couple of the other quarterbacks, mccarron of alabama and one other guy, but he was third on that list so that tells you how accepting of the public is right there. the other thing as far as publicity is concerned they have done a good job of shielding him away. he's had a lot of offers to do commercial and he has only accepted one so far, vooes visa. he could have been out there more than he has. michael sam understands what he needs to do publicity wise. >> thank you all so much. thank you, everybody. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> very interesting discussion. >> thank you. >> we will talk much more about michael sam being drafted later on this hour. while the search goes for the missing malaysian airlines

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today of a high tech underwater search gone wrong. a remote underwater vehicle billed has been lost at sea off the coast of new zealand. it was where experts believe the malaysian airlines flight could be. going forward it could have been used in the search for the missing malaysian airliner. earlier, i spoke with cnn analyst david gallow. >> it's a vehicle designed very innovative by the engineers here to go to the very deepest ocean depths below 6,000 meters and

the vehicle sometime in the night last night, we got word today the vehicle imploded at 9,000 meters depth, a little over six miles depth. and it was in the middle, toward the end of its first leg of a new initiative to map the deepest parts of the world ocean. it's a real setback in that regard. we will learn a lot from it but it hurts for the time being. >> david told me the vehicle had worked great up until its failure but he said working at extreme ocean depths is, in his opinion, really pushing the envelope. so could the search for malaysian airlines flight 370 be focused on the wrong ocean? ground breaking atlantic magazine article suggests all search areas in the south indian ocean are based on bad math that would explain why not a shred of physical evidence from flight 370 ever turned up in any search zone. according to the report many satellite experts believe mars satellite data is plane wrong and therefore every search area drawn by calculations from the

data could be way off base. i want to read you this. journalist schulman writes either inmarsat snals doesn't make sense or it's flat out wrong and inmarsat claims a difference a southbound and northbound motion. the frequency along those paths should be different in the one inmarsat has produced. heart broken flight 370 families are begging malaysian authorities to release the expert so other experts can take a look at. . families have been told no over and over again. could this new report make a difference? with me now is the reports author and executive editor of the new atlantis, ari schulman. when did you get suspicion first of the satellite data? >> i saw these reports and the reports said that other satellite experts had taken a look at this and said that it

looked correct. and my interest in it really was to see if i could sort of reproduce the results, follow the work of others who are reproducing the results and maybe refine it and see if you could narrow down most likely paths. when i started doing that work and so did others the math didn't look like it made sense and not interpreted in the way that would allow you to narrow it down. characteristics you would expect from the satellite map were not matched up in the graph. >> in terms of the math, you compared inharassat ping math to a game of marco polo. for those of us without an advanced degree in math explain how those two possibly connect. >> the way that the satellite is communicating with the plane it's not actually receiving any direct information about the plain's location. there is no information about heading or based on the signal itself you can infer some things about the plane's location. one of those is that the farther

away the plane is the longer it will take for the transmission to comeback even though it's traveling at the speed of light it's traveling such a long distance you can actually get some sort of reasonable guess of the distance but you don't know the direction from the satellite. so it's like a game of marco polo. you know how far away it is but not exactly where it is. and similarly based on the frequency of the ping, you know the frequency that it's supposed to be transmitting at and if the plane is moving towards the satellite it will change that frequency because of the doppler effect and like the sound of a car change when you're listening to it on the highway when it comes away from you. they get a sense of whether the plane is traveling away or towards the satellite and how fast. they have that set of information and that they can x extrapolate back. but it doesn't match up with that math. >> in terms of just i want to share one more bit from your article.

this is the part where you question the accuracy of inmarsat frequency shifts. you write but the problem of the large frequency shift before takeoff is more vexing exactly how fast does the graph show the plane and satellite moving away from each other prior to takeoff then? >> right. this was the first clue that i and others had that there was something wrong with this math. because before the takeoff, the frequency of that signal, that transmission seems to show the plane moving at at least 50 miles an hour on the runway. now that is if the plane is moving directly away from the satellite. if it were moving at an angle it would be going faster than that but that doesn't mean that is how fast the plane was going but that means the straightforward interpretation of that graph. something with the graph as they have released it is wrong. you have to try other interpretations where you can get a speed that is closer to zero, which is basically how fast we know the plane was moving at that time. >> you've talked to experts about this and what do they tell you? >> well, there are several possibilities.

the first clue that we had -- for one thing, the graph is flipped. it starts all of these frequency shifts as positive when they should be negative so that the first thing they had to do to clean up the math. the other thing was that the graph as its released seems to say that the frequency shifts are only coming from the transmission from the satellite to the plane. sorry if this is getting a little technical. another possibility which is when that satellite then passes that transmission back on to the ground station on the earth where it connects back to the inmarsat network maybe that is producing an frequency shift also. if you run the numbers that way the graph makes more sense. you do get a value for the plane before takeoff of moving at about 1 miles an hour which is what you would expect but it doesn't get you all the way there and that is ultimately in some sense guesswork because inmarsat hasn't explained their numbers and hasn't explained their model. >> you said you sort -- we only have sort of part of the story here but you took those concerns of yours to malaysia airlines and the malaysian government and

officials and the australian search leaders. did you get anywhere with them? >> no. from malaysian authorities, both malaysia airlines and the malaysia department of transportation, i've simply gotten no responses. from the uk air accident investigations board which has been doing a lot of work on the investigation and from the australian counterparts, they both responded with very tourist replies and refusing to comment on an ongoing investigation. i think that is a mistake in this case because this isn't the case of a plane that is certainly crashed and they are simply investigating the cause. they don't each know where it is. they don't know for sure that it has crashed but they ae treating this as an investigation rather than a search and recovery operation which it still is. >> yeah. so after so many weeks and so many millions of dollars we are still wondering now, certainly after your article, whether or not they are looking in the right place. ari schulman, stay with me. we will explore this area ahead

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and yet, there's someone around the office who hasn't had a performance review in a while. someone whose poor performance is slowing down the entire organization. i'm looking at you phone company dsl. check your speed. see how fast your internet can be. switch now and add voice and tv for $34.90. comcast business built for business. we are back with the shocking new theory on the fruitless search for malaysia airlines flight 370. a report in "atlantic" magazine suggest searchers are looking in the wrong place because the inmarsat satellite data is just plane wrong. joining me the report's author

ari schulman and our expert planel aviation annual lift and pilot miles o'brien and haban a captain and jeff wise, a journalist. jeff, to you first. when you read ari's article, how did you react and what did you think? >> well, i was happy because, frankly, i've been banging this drum mice and i've been on some of the same e-mail threads as ari has been with some of these experts who have been very critical of this data and really concerned about the quality of the analysis that has been put forward by the authorities as justification for their search areas and for the search strategies. and really, you know, especially when these searches came up empty the question becomes more and more compelling why are they doing what they are doing and is it time for them to stop and ask some real fundamental questions? >> so, miles, certainly nobody can verify inmarsat calculation

because the info is being kept secret. could this nudge malaysian officials to let others look at it. >> i hope so. ari did a good job and with all due respect to him because i know he is here listening he did the job based on incomplete information because the data has not been released. he mentions in the article there might be good explanations for all of these apparent inaccuracies in the data because they haven't released it. at this stage of the game it's impossible to come up with a explanation why the malaysian authorities would hold back and, further, i think it's cruel to the families at this point. and counterproductive to the investigation because as ari has discovered, as jeff has discovered, as i have discovered, there are a lot of smart people out there who are doing their best to reverse

engineer what inmarsat has laid out so far and they still don't have the full picture. so by all means, inmarsat if you're listening, by all means, malaysian authorities who actually do have the say so, let's release this data and let the world take a look at it and maybe somebody will find something that inmarsat team and their closely held peer review when he don't know who they are missed. that could happen. a lot of smart people miss things and that is how we blew up a couple of space shuttles and how the mars or bitter crashes into the planet mars. the best and brightest can miss some very obvious things. >> les, what do you think? you read the article. i think you found it pretty disturbing. >> well, it's not disturbing. i found it compelling. i think that, i mean, i had to research it a few times because i'm dealing with my own pilot math but i thought had he some interesting arguments but the -- you know, the simple fact of the

matter is there are experts out that are, right now, regrouping and i don't think this is all being done in a vacuum and accident investigation does require a little bit of -- i don't want i don't want to use the word vetsy but there's some aspects of accident investigation that require some containment and i think if you've got experts -- if you've got experts like ari out there that can come up with information like he did, then there are other -- hang on a second, miles. >> why are we containing? what are we containing? what is the point? >> because the investigation process, miles. >> what does this have to do with the criminal investigation? there is no investigation until we find the airplane. let's not forget that. we don't even know where the airplane is and to say we need to contain it. contain it? there is nothing. so why not let this particular aspect of it out and this has nothing to do with who -- if

there was a human being who is responsible. the criminal stuff, i totally get that. you want to contain that. but i'm curious. how would you make the argument if you were an investigator for keeping this under wraps? >> because it's part of the process, miles. that is really -- it gets tainted with too much information and you just have to trust the fact there is enough experts out there that are working in the same direction that ari is working in. >> well, i think we are in the post -- we are in the post trust era now. >> we have actually released a lot of this information in the charles and graphs they released but they haven't released it in a clear legible way. >> i would like to echo pa. we are here talking about whether or not we can trust the authorities and that is fine but that shouldn't be what the debate is about right now. this is what they are asking us to do. they are asking us to take on faith, to take on trust their conclusions. at the same time, that they are releasing this data that is supposed to lend us to trust that authority but the data doesn't back that up. it doesn't seem to show wha