on right now here in carlsbad, california. one of four spifires burning inn diego county. >> we'll of course stay on top of the breaking news throughout the night here on cnn. thanks. that's it for me. thanks very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." let's step into the "cross fire" with stephanie cutter and s.e. cupp. wolf, it was throwback wednesday in washington. bill and hillary clinton came to town. it's back to the 0s iss. >> i don't think so, s.e. they're looking to the future. the only throwback is your party. >> okay. >> the debate starts right now. tonight on "crossfire." the clintons strike back. >> first they said she faked her concussion. and now they say she's auditioning for a part on the "walking dead." >> bill and hillary come to washington and defend the family brand. will they scare off the competition? >> are you still thinking about running for president? when will you make the decision? >> yes, and later.

>> on the left, stephanie cutter. on the right, s.e. cupp. in the "crossfire," hilary rosen, a democratic strategist, and kevin madden, a republican strategist. are all eyes on the clintons? or the alternatives? tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm stephanie cutter on left. >> i'm s.e. cupp on the right. in the "crossfire" tonight a pair of top political strategists. have a message for karl rove, thanks but no thanks. bill clinton took your silly softball pitch and knocked it out of the ballpark. look, it's neither sexist or out of bounds to raise serious legitimate questions about hillary's health. so i appreciate the effort, but imposing a ridiculous conspiracy theory, all you did was buy her a week of sympathy. and karl, you turned it into a punch line that gave bill clinton a perfect setup. >> now they say she's really got

brain damage. >> you think they're just trying -- >> if she does, i must be in really tough shape because she's still quicker than i am. >> hardy-har-har. let's not make a habit of gifting singers to bill clinton. we'll take it from here, karl. >> you know, actually, i don't disafr agreagree with a thing y >> i bet you don't. >> kpexcept for this that karl rove should not go away. democratic strategist hilary rosen, republican strategist, kevin madden. kevin, we'll start with you. there's something else that bill clinton said today about the absurdity of karl rove's question. i want you to listen to this. >> i got to give him credit, you know, that embodies that old saying that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. >> the consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. explain to me how this wasn't a small-minded attack on the part

of karl rove? >> well, i think in order it to be an attack, i think it has to be premeditated and there has to be some sort of conspiracy there. i just happen to dis agragree w the democrats who believe that we're sitting around conspireing to introduce things like hillary clinton's health into a 2016 conversation and karl rove is, like, you know, the one with the starters gun on this. i think that this was dr. rove's comments. >> dr. rove. >> i think they were awkward and i think they ultimately were erroneous but they were about an obvious point which is that there's a difference between being a technical noncandidate and a candidate and the level of scrutiny you get and ultimately i think that hillary clinton as she goes to sequence of deciding whether or not she wants to run, she's considering those issues, and i think that -- >> you're saying it's erroneous but not small -- >> i don't think that karl rove into that event wherever this news was made with the design on sort of introducing this element to the conversation. i absolutely disafree with that. i think one of the reasons that we're continuing to talk about

it today, and i don't mean this in a criticism way, i mean it in a clinical observation, which is that the clinton operation smartly seized upon it. she may not be a candidate, but her operation is operating like she is a candidate. >> hilary -- >> they worked very quickly to engender sympathy like you said. >> you hear brain damage, of course, you're going to act on it. >> first of all, they had to respond and respond fast. >> yeah. i think it escalated as it went. >> as a matter of -- can't let that sit out there. really the thing i'm questioning of that you said is that this wasn't calculated. it seems to me that this whole effort by the house gop to create the benghazi committee fell flat. the media ridiculed it. the public yawned. it just went nowhere. and so, you know, they keep needing to come up with sort of the next page in the anti-hillary playbook because they know she's about to go on her book tour. >> there are so many pages in

the anti-hillary playbook. >> they know crowds are going to come to her events and get a lot of funding and want to do as much damage as possible before she gets out there publicly. >> we'll get to benghazi. before we do that, i want to talk about your bench, the democrats' bench just for a little bit because if hillary doesn't announce soon, i don't know what the prospects are. joe biden is a great guy but, like, 100 years old. martin o'malley, maryland, known to three people outside of his home state. elizabeth warren i think is far too extreme. she's left of left. if hillary doesn't announce soon, hasn't she taken up all the oxygen from these other players who i think would need a significant amount of time to engender the kind of support that she already has? >> first of all, joe biden as vice president has a lot of support in the democratic party. i'd almost put him in a special category. but with other people, there's no question that there's no oxygen in the room to get a lot of attention, and i -- but that doesn't mean there's not talent there. that just means there's no

oxygen. so, you know, if hillary decides not to run, i think people going to very quickly look at the rest of our talent. and it seems odd that we should worry about somebody being too left when you've got a guy like marco rubio or ted cruz. >> look, the republican bench is great. we've got rising stars. there's no coronation on our side. >> i'm not worried at all about that perception. >> hillary clinton isn't giving any of these -- including joe biden -- isn't giving any of these guys a real chance. >> first of all, hillary clinton suspect doing anything. we in the media are doing this to say whether she's running or not. >> but nobody's saying whether they're running really. >> it's 2014. it is 2014. >> we still have another election to go before we need to have a candidate declare. >> candidates are made overnight. i don't think anyone at this table believes martin o'malley can wage a significant opposition to any of the republican contenders in a year. >> has anybody declared a --

>> the fact of the matter is as soon as -- if hillary clinton were to step aside, as soon as she did, there would be plenty of attention and plenty of time for somebody else to -- >> i want to change gears a little bit. i'm not sure who said it, but somebody said we'd get to benghazi later. well, it's later. kevin? president clinton also made a point today about the benghazi investigation agreeing with many of us this is not about protecting embassies for the future, this is a gotcha game. listen to what he said. >> most americans don't know how many american diplomatic personnel were killed when president bush was president. >> there were 13 attacks on u.s. diplomatic facilities during george bush's administration. many americans died. unfortunately. but i don't remember any outcries from republicans when that was going on. where was the investigation? and there was none, let me save you the time. let's just agree on what this is. this isn't about getting to the bottom to ensure that we prevent

attacks in the future. this is a gotcha game. >> i'm not familiar with some of the facts related to some of the events that did take place in the bush administration. i to thido think the problem wi argument that president clinton makes, he's arguing we should always look forward yet at the same time he introduces a comparison that looks backward. >> except before that he talked about the multiple investigations. >> i think what's driving the benghazi issue right now is that there are members of the house of representatives that feel that the administration just has not answered crucial questions or has stalled along the way on crucial questions that deserve answers and that the families an those of the victims that they deserve answer. >> dozens of parents -- >> there was one e-mail that was critical that's missing. >> ever prepped anybody for a sunday show? >> pardon me? >> ever prepped anybody for a sunday show? >> are you kidding me? that's the one show i hated. >> we're not going to say that because somebody missed an e-mail over sunday show talk

points. >> it was a critical e-mail. >> this is what was critical. what was critical is what actually happened and that has been well documented. we have the bipartisan pickering/mullen report from well-established public servants looking at these issues. we have significant number of hearings. we had the secretary of state, herself, go to the congress. there's nothing that evaluating an additional e-mail by a white house press staffer -- >> they have an important oversight role here and those members s on that committee who believe they don't have enough answers want more. they're making the argument we should have additional information and have those hearings. they're not satisfied given the level of oversight charge that they have that they have those answers. let's talk about the politics of it. i mean, the politics of it, i believe that there are a lot of base republicans that it's a very important issue for them. there are a lot of base democrats where they figure, they say, let's move on. quite frankly, i don't think it motivates that many people in

the middle. to always blame somebody on the politics of it i think is not -- >> i think in this case there's a legitimate -- >> members of congress who take their job serious lly -- >> we're going to come back to this. >> chris christie was also here in washington today. i don't know if you knew that. and kevin, it may surprise you, but i think he got something half right. i'll ask you about it after the break. first, here's today's "crossfire" quiz. which republican presidential candidate did hillary clinton publicly support? is it barry goldwater? nelson rockefeller? or richard nixon? we'll have the answer when we get back.

welcome back. now the answer to our "crossfire" quiz. hillary clinton was a goldwater

girl in is the1964. >> oh, i knew it. that a girl. >> let's fast forward to today. here in washington republicans and the media are obsessed with the clintons. here's the real story i think everybody is missing. the republican party is lurching to the right. don't believe the headlines about the tea party's time being over. consider this. the republican establishment spent millions of dollars to ensure their senate nominee won in north carolina, but their candidate, tom tillis, still believes in abolishing the department of education and outlying contraception. in iowa, the establishment has embraced joni ernst who turned herself into sarah palin in order to win that primary. we all know how mainstream that is. so the tea party is not dead. it renamed itself. it's now called the republican party. the "crossfire" tonight, hilary rosen, and republican strategist kevin madden. kevin? hasn't the --

>> you agree, right? >> endorse. >> thank you for your agreement here. >> hasn't the tea party -- >> i do. >> -- pushed republicans away from the mainstream? alienated them from the center of this country? the majority of american people? >> no, look. i mean, what the tea party has done inside the party i think is a great thing on things like accountability and responsibility on issues like spending, deficits and taxes, right? i think what it's done electorally is, you know, and i would say there's a legitimate criticism or legitimate analysis that said, like, about a couple months ago that there was big splits and faction within the party. right now i think everybody is starting to come together and form a grander coalition that's actually helping the republican party. >> all of those positions are moving to the right. what's happening with immigration? >> look in the north carolina race, i mean, we had three conservative candidates down there and the best campaign won. i think the same has been in place -- >> that's the point -- >> same position. >> and they're going to beat

hagan down there because they're talking about issues that matter. they're talking about what these -- these candidates are talking about what they're for. they're talking about what they're for when it comes to patient-centric health care, economic growth that's going to create jobs and bring up wages. >> the reason the tea party still has power, and you're right, it is the republican party, is because it's not really about their candidates. it's about their firm commitment to this, like, take no prisoners politic that has -- >> that's an absolutely simplistic view of what's always been a reform element inside the republican party. >> they have driven the republican party away. >> one at a time. one at a time. >> they've driven the republican party away from compromise on things like es, on things like jobs, things even like bipartisan -- >> let me -- >> immigration. they absolutely have. >> a different interpretation here. honestly i wish you and stephanie were right. i see the complete opposition happening. i actually see republicans

softening on son of their principles to sound more appealing. rand paul this week, for example, told republicans essentially to ocool it on vote i.d. because it sounds offensive. i've seen a number of examples of this over the past few months. now, he's also talk about prison reform which i happen to like, but doesn't it worry you that some republicans are kind of stealing your best stuff and really trying to soften their message? >> actually it doesn't because -- and by the way, voter i.d. doesn't just sound offensive, it is offensive. >> 80% of the country support voter i.d. laws. >> well, they don't support republican legislatures stopping people from voting. so you've got me wrong if you think that it wouldn't be good for democrats if we could come to a compromise on immigration. if we could come to a compromise on education reform, if we could actually come to a compromise on something as business oriented as tax reform. i think actually you have a whole host of democrats in washington who would really like

republicans to soften not just their image but actually their position. >> well, i would disagree with the idea -- i would even disagree with you, s.e., on the idea that they're softening their principles. i think they're doing a much better job of clarifying our principles and aligning ourselves with the larger electorate. >> let me argue with kevin for a second. rand paul did not change his mind on the principle of voter i.d. he said we need to talk about it less because it sounds offensive. he's not changing the principle. he wants to change the rhetoric. i don't mind, i don't mind changing rhetoric, but in saying we should walk back our values because it sounds offensive, no, let's find better ways. >> i'm going beyond on issues like economic growth, economic opportunity, education, even on issues like immigration and health care. republicans are doing a much better job. the reason we're going to win, we're going to win very big in 2014 is because we're doing a much better job defining -- >> kevin, economic opportunity?

mitt romney, rick santorum, tim pawlenty all suggest we raise the minimum wage. nobody, nobody on our side of the aisle thinks that is good for jobs. >> that is not true. i think what santorum and pawlenty and others have said is yes, you have to strike a balance. oftentimes when you're looking at an issue like the minimum wage, you can strike that balance. but we're doing a much better job as a party, and so are many of the candidates. we're drawing the contrast against the failed policies of democrats. the failed policies of the obama administration. >> if that were true -- >> why is president obama's average approval rating at 40%. >> that were true, if republicans really did have a positive proactive message, then all these campaign ads that are actually hurting democrats in all these states would be about that. but they're not. all they do is -- >> they absolutely are. they're drawing contrast. >> for policies, hillary,

they're drawing contrast with the policies that haven't worked and drawing a vision for what they woo do. >> they're trashing the president and senators associated with the president. >> they're not trashing. hillary, pointing out the president's record on a failed economy is not trashing the president. that's introducing facts to the voters. >> first of all, the economy has not failed. we have had 30 months of -- >> we haven't had the -- we're not -- so we're living up to our economic potential right now? >> no, tlofk is more to do. but we're so far ahead of where the republicans took us that to even go back would be crazy. >> we'll see at the ballot in november. we'll come back here afterwards, and we'll talk about it. >> and see how many voters think it's because of those issues versus the president. >> okay. well, stay here. we want you at home to weigh in on today's fireback question. is the tea party getting stronger or weaker? tweet stronger or weaker. we'll have the results after the break. we also have the outrages of the day. i am outraged about a so-called ethics pledge that is anything but ethical.

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welcome back. now it's time for outrages of the day. nebraska republicans just nominated a u.s. senate candidate who thinks that religious freedom gives you the right to break any law that you want. ben sass's website says, quote, government cannot force citizens to violate the religious beliefs under any circumstances.

really? any circumstances? are honor killings now okay? how about polygamy. seriously, though. the real-life implications of what he is saying and what he means is that he doesn't believe women should have access to contraception or reproductive health, or that lgbt americans receive the same protections against discrimination. i think it's outrageous. i think it's international program cal extremism. it's way too typical of the republican right wing right now. >> okay, well, on my side, hollywood's got a short attention span. the hullabaloo around the beverly hills hotel boycott is dying down. but if hollywood is looking for another nearby protest opportunity, may i suggest nearby ucla. there pro palestinian groups are trying to keep students who visited israel with pro israel groups from participating in campus government. students for justice in palestine has drafted an ethics statement requiring candidates running for undergraduate student government to pledge not to travel to israel with

pro-israel sponsorship. pro-palestinian travel is just fine, however. frighteningly, the university has decided not to take a side in what amounts to blanket discrimination and rank anti-semitism. hollywood's own dark history clouds anti-semitism and blacklisting of this sort. so i imagine this should hit close to home. so come on, celebs, ucla is just right around the corner. what are you waiting for in? . let's check back on our fireback results. the tea party getting stronger or weaker? 34% say stronger. 66% say weaker. >> yeah, i got to agree. >> kevin, why don't you take the first crack at that. somewhere in between? >> i would say that the reform element of accountability and responsibility inside the american electorate has aligned itself with republicans and is very strong. >> hillary? >> i think it's sort of wishful thinking. we talked about this before. the republican leadership in the house and the senate and across

this country have so bent over to make the tea party positions their positions that it's absolutely indistinguishable from the rest of the republican party now. so i think it's kind of irrelevant. >> why do you think that the house hasn't brought up immigration reform yet, out of curiosity? >> i think right now you have the focus they want a comprehensive approach. i think that is big and quote, comprehensive is really hard to get through right now. i think there are a lot of folks right now that would rather see legislation in smaller chunks get through. and that would be easier to get through. >> i love how strong you guys think. the tea party. i'm seeing -- >> i'm seeing a shift. used to be tea partiers and used to talk tea party language move to -- -- enthusiasm, then you're not going win in november. >> thanks to hilary rosen and kevin madden, the debate continues online.

c cnn.com/crossfire. >> "erin burnett outfront" starts right now. next, breaking news. at least five wildfires burning out of control at this moment. tens of thousands evacuated. we're live on the scene. plus, unleashing bill, the former president of the united states jumps to his wife's defense, firing back at karl rove. but did he do a lot more harm? and christopher columbus's flagship, the santa maria. how much is it worth? the man who discovered it and a star from the hit show "antiques road show" here to tell us. let's go "outfront." good