just haven't seen those 2013 numbers just yet. >> still worrisome indeed. thanks for report, rene. appreciate it. be sure to join us again tomorrow in "the situation room." watch us live. dvr the show so you won't miss a moment if you can't watch us live. thanks very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." now let's step into the "crossfire." >> wolf, we have great guests today including the chairman of the veterans affairs committee in the senate here tonight. we also have the committee republican who asked eric shinseki who explain why he should not resign. the debate starts right now. >> tonight, on "crossfire," is president obama doing enough to clean up the scandal over veterans care? >> if these allegations prove to be true, it is dishonorable, it is disgraceful, and i will not tolerate it, period. >> so why wasn't va secretary eric shinseki fired? >> mr. president, we need urgency. we need you to roll up our sleeves and get into these hospitals.

>> on the left, van jones. on the right, newt gingrich. in the "crossfire," senator bernie sanders, a vermont independent, and senator dean heller, north dakota republican. day risked their lives for our country. how does the president do right by our veterans? tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm van jones on the left. >> i'm newt gingrich on the right. in the "cross fofire" tonights members of the senate veterans committee. twomerge from president obama's embarrassing news conference today. after having a five-year opportunity to clean up the department of veterans affairs, both he and his cabinet appointee failed. second, faced with universal coverage of that failure, all we got from the president today was this. >> all of us, whether here in washington or all across the

country have to stay focused on the larger mission which is upholding our sacred trust to all of our veterans bringing the va system into the 21st century which is not an easy task. >> bill clinton used to say, i feel your pain. barack obama says, i hope you'll feel my pain. this is a big mess. it deserves a big response. instead, we get another pathetic example of this president not being up to the task. after ssyria, after ukraine, we have a new red line. this time it's around the veterans affairs building. >> look, i just think that's completely unfair. first of all, he's doing the investigation. there has been real progress. the homeless issue has been dealt with. in the "crossfire" tonight, we've got senator bernie sanders, a vermont independent, also the chairman of the veteran affairs committee in the senate. we also have republican senator dean heller of nevada who also serves on that committee. welcome to both of you. let's start with you.

you got -- you've been in the spotlight on this thing. you got a lot of attention last week. you actually asked shinseki to his face why he hadn't resigned. let me ask you a question. do you think if you were the president of the united states you would have fired him today? the investigation is not finished. would you have fired him today? >> i afree with the speaker on his comments and his introductions. i think sis a real lack of leadership as we're moving forward on this particular issue. and there are a lot of stories out there. we've known about this for five years. this isn't a new issue. he -- senator obama when he was running for president said he was going to clean this up. we have a 1940s system in the 21s century. we're no closer to cleaning this problem up. >> i don't think -- first of all, let me begin by thanking dean. >> thank you. >> we talk about veterans issues. i introduced with my committee in a very bipartisan way. we try to make it bipartisan. most comprehensive veterans legislation introduced in the last 20 years. it was supported by the american

legion, the dav. all of the veterans organizations. brought it to the floor. i want to thank dean very much. there were two republicans who supported it. dean heller was one and senator moran of kansas was the over. we're going to move forward on that. i wanted to thank dean for his support of that important legislation. now, let's look about the va for a second. does anyone here think the va is perfect? i don't think so. if you look at the va objecti objectively a fairly, newt, what you find out, according to the veterans, themselves, from patient satisfaction surveys, they think va health care is pretty food. let me finish. dean was at the hear with me. we asked all the veterans organizations. we said, once you access, once you access va health care, is the care good? what they said is it was good to excellent. the problem that we're dealing with, which is a serious problem, is waiting lists, is access. >> well, two things.

first of all, among younger veterans, iraq veterans and afghanistan veterans, i think 59% say it's bad to poor. only 38% say that it's excellent or good. so there's a big difference generationally. second, you've had cases now where you have people who couldn't get a colonoscopy, not a problem of getting registered, and they die. isn't anybody worried about that? >> worried about it? it's a tragedy. it's a tragedy. who could argue that? people have died because of bad care within the va, but newt, this is a scientific american article of a year ago. you know what it says? in hospitals in america, not the va, in hospitals in america, you've seen that study, between 200 and 400 americans die because of poor treatments in hospital, infections, getting wrong dosages of drugs. we have a health care crisis in general. >> let me go a step forward. you met today with president's chief of staff.

>> yeah. >> did he said anything that was more reassuring than the president's press conference? >> he said that he and the president regard these problems very, very serious and they're going to do everything they can to get to the root. let's look at what the problems are. as you know, newt, in recent years because of the wars in iraq and afghanistan, and you're looking at a guy who voted against war in iraq, but as a result of those wars, we've seen a huge increase of the number of people coming into the va. these are question we have to ask. that's really where these wars, by the way, which republicans were big cheerleaders for, got us into. i hear no accountability, responsibility from republicans about flooding the system that we've got. all day long we hear smashing on the president, the president's horrible. what could the president have done today that would have satisfied you? he has an investigation going on, number one. he said he's opening to firing shinseki after an investigation. our president happens to believe in maybe having an investigation before an execution. what could he have done today to

that would have made a difference for you republicans? >> i wish he would have done this a month ago when this came to the forefront. it took 2,000 articles in the newspaper, on tv, telling him to be upset. today he manufactured -- >> that's completely unfair, senator. what could he have done today? today he stood by the investigation. e he opened the door for a rez ig the resignation or firing of shinseki. what could he have done today. >> we're closer with members of congress. the chairman, i supported him on. i don't think the president was engaged like he should have been on a piece of legislation on that caliber and that importance. he could have been out there in the forefront, three months ago, six months ago and really fought for the veterans. >> it's a bipartisan problem, going or if a long time. >> i agree with that. >> where are the rest of the republicans to get something done? >> we the way, this is not a money issue. this is hamanagement issue, not money issue. we increased 60% the amount of money we put into the va system

in the past five years. >> you have two wars and a lot of folks are coming into the va. obviously you are going to spend more money. i'm not so sure you're right on that, dean. wow have t it's a fair criticism of the va to say, is their management as effective as possible? do you have bad managers in hospitals who should have been fire? probably. you need investigations? probably. second of all, though, i think that when you see a huge increase, a million and a half more people in the va than we had three or four years ago. you know what? you may need more staff and it may be a money issue as well. >> let me ask you two questions about that. first of all, the house today on a bipartisan basis overwhelm bli passed the bill that would give the secretary the ability to fire the top 450 people in the va as a way of starting to get a -- we just talked about this. >> a good step. >> would you be willing to bring that bill up in the senate, get it to the president and give

them a chance next week to give shin seseki that authority? >> we're going to do a hear on that bill. you don't just bring a bill up as you well know. we're going to look at a number of pieces of legislation. if the issue is should the secretary be able to get rid of incompetent leadership, absolutely, positively. >> second, i was struck when we began doing research, three a s articles on cnn.com about this current situation. the va today is 50% bigger in personnel than the marine corps. >> what does that mean? taking care of 6.5 million people. >> first of all, it means it is a huge system. >> it is a huge system. >> and it's a system whose information technology is at least 15 to 20 years out of date. this is part of the congress' fault. this is not a shinseki problem. all the things that obama campaigned on in '08 were true and they're still true. what's worrisome to me on a bipartisan basis in, this really requires a systems reform that cuts through the whole thing. this is more than scapegoating

general shinseki. this is also the congress has to own up to having helped create part of this mess. >> we have a bureaucracy problem in the va. and we have managers now that are not afraid of shinseki and not afraid of president obama. they're simply not afraid of them. i can give you a good example in the state of nevada where we have regional officer, director that won't return my phone calls or anybody else in our delegation. that's a problem. >> let me give you a better example. let me give you a better example. >> when we come back. we're hearing a lot of outrage today about the va as well we should. in a minute i'm going to ask you, senator heller, why the republican outrage on this seems selective. first today's fireback quiz. how far back does the va trace its roots? 1636, 1776, or 1917? we're going to have the prizing answer when we get back.

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welcome back. now the answer to our "crossfire" quiz. the va traces its roots back to 1636 when the pilgrims passed a law saying that disabled soldiers would be supported by the entire plymouth colony. that was then. today there is an awful lot of outrage about this growing scandal at the va as well there should be. but for some republicans, this outrage seems to be highly selective. now, look, democrats are outraged whenever any sick american can't visit a doctor, so, for instance, when a greedy private company keeps people from seeing a doctor because that's how they maximize their profits, or when republican governors blockade the medicaid expansion making it impossible for 20 million working americans to see doctors, which is

happening today, or when bureaucrats conspire to keep our veterans from seeing doctors. of course, democrats are outraged because we're consistent. i just wish the republicans were. now, in the "crossfire" tonight, senators bernie sanders and dean heller. so to you -- >> man, you're talking to the wrong guy. we had a republican governor that expanded medicaid in the state -- >> good for you. >> the state of nevada. were outraged and always outraged. we're outraged with what's going on with the veterans. 300,000 veterans in the state of nevada. they're not being treated properly. e we want to change that. >> let me jump in to make the point. we all recognize that the republicans -- i don't think you want to throw the baby out with the water. >> that's a good -- you're making my point which i want to come back to you, sir. there are republicans now who seem to be intent on doing exactly that, throwing the baby out with the bath water. you have republicans saying they want to use this crisis, exploit it to introduce vouchers and begin to voucherize the system.

isn't this a situation where republicans are going to exploit this and bring in vouchers? are you trying to fix the va or trying to kill it? >> first of all, that's not accurate. we had a conference meeting today. nobody trying to disassemble the veterans, the va at this point. i have a father who's a disabled veteran from the korean war and wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for the va, so there are some changes -- >> what about the drive, now, to voucherize and privatize? >> luabsolutely not. that conference, that's not happening in our conference. >> wouldn't that be a horrible outcome to use this as an excuse to privatize -- >> all the veterans organizations today, they have their differences. they're all united. to voucherize the va would be a total disaster for veterans. other point i want to make, when we look at shinseki, what he's done in trying to be fair, it's ease city to beat up on this huge bureaucracy. no we about it. newt, you talk about information technology. do you know that under bush, do you know how we did the va claims?

do you know how we did it? in the year 2008, we were doing it in paper. unbelievable. in paper. and i wonder where some of the republican outrage is no other major institution in the world was doing stuff in paper. >> let me give an example of the problem, though. we spent over $2 billion trying to go to information technology, the dod for help. they failed. the defense department and va just spent $1 billion. in february, two secretaries announced that had failed. so part of this is i think this is a congress problem. we have to rewrite procurement law for information technology. >> fair enough. let's -- the va has not failed in terms of transforming the claims issue from paper into an electronic system. in fact, they have reduced the backlog by 52%. "national journal" just reported yet they're going to aheave their goal by mid 2015. >> takes 183 days to transfer from -- 183 days --

>> 355 in nevada. 3 5. >> i want to share with you the president's 2008 campaign pledge. in his own words, to ask you a question about not having achieved -- watch president, candidate obama in 2008. >> we must also stand up for affordable health care for every single veteran. that's why i pledge to build a 21st century va. we need to cut through the red tape. every service member coushould electronic copies of service and medical records upon discharge. >> it's 2014 and none of that's happened. >> well, what has happened, you know, putting things into context, can you imagine if we were sitting here at the end of the bush era, what you would be saying about a system still in paper? you could not believe it, correct? >> i wrote a book on it called "paper kills." i'm with you. >> shinseki said, this is what i'm going to do, you know what, they're doing it.

i think much of the blame rests with -- >> nobody talks to anybody. have i this backlogged group i work with senator casey from pennsylvania put together the solutions to try to fix this backlog. >> wait a second. i know we have a lot of residual sympathy for the president. but isn't there a point where chief executive has some meaning here? >> i think people want to beat up on the president, that is fine. but this is a two-party system. you have two parties. >> i agree. let's solve the problem. >> this is actually a real crisis. this is actually a real scandal. but here is a problem. there is so much -- there has been so many trumped up fake phony scandals in this town that you now have the danger of a benghaziization of this scandal so you have republicans using it to score cheap local points. aren't you concerned about

republicans politicizing this and being more interested in getting the president than the problem fixed? >> i'm far more concerned about the 300,000 veterans we have in the state of nevada. could you tell today by that press conference that the president is truly concerned about this problem? and that's i think is the real issue. >> what press conference did you watch? the president stood there. he pointed out first of all, if i were shinseki, i would be a little concerned for my job because he opened the door for the guy to resign right there in front of god and everybody. political fence mending. >> that's the whole point. the president of the united states has to randiy to render judgment. general shinseki deserves a lot of respect. but i thought it was embarrassing to watch the president of the united states, chief executive officer of america, you know, i'm not sure how good a job he is doing. why have a president if he can't figure any of this howe out? >> don't you think in a situation like, this maybe some day -- you know i'm sympathetic

to you. >> i got to get some help in here. i got to get some help. you might be president of the united states. if you were in the present situation, would you fire shinseki? tell me why you wouldn't. >> first off, there were allegations made about phoenix. they're allegations. dean was at the hearing with me. and the inspector general has issued, at least made a preliminary statement. he said we have gone through the list. the first 17 people who died we looked at, none of them died because of delayed care in phoenix. so before you go around firing people, newt, you know this, we need facts. >> let me just say stay here. well want you at home to weigh in on today's fireback question. how do you rate obama's management of the v.a. scandal? sweet strong or weak using the #crossfire. we also have the outrages of the day. today is kind of remarkable. van and i have a joint outrage about an issue so big it affects every american. when it comes to good nutrition...i'm no expert.

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welcome back. tonight van and i have a joint outrage. we were outraged to hear that new york city spends $168,000 a year to keep each prisoner hired at rikers island. for the same money you could send every one of them to yale for three years. you have a system today that says it's perfectly reasonable to spend $168,000 a year warehousing people who have an 80% chance of going back to prison once they're released.

now, i am not for the very violent ever getting out of prison. but i'm also against spending $168,000 a year on prisoners. you need creativity. and we're beginning to see creativity. earlier i attended a conference called right on crime. people from state after state came with good ideas about prison reform. >> i'm glad to hear it. i agree with you on this one, newt, 100%. get. this i learned something today. in mississippi, the prison system there for all its problems is actually now starting to take smart and creative steps to lock up fewer people and waste less money in mississippi. meanwhile, here is my outrage. in my beloved state of california, we're spending more money on prisons. more money than we're spending on higher education. prison spending is so out of control in california now that a dime out of every state dollar is going to prisons that don't even work. now, california governor jerry brown could be as forward leaning and progressive as

mississippi, but instead he is actually resisting court orders to reform. he wants to double down. he wants to build even more prisons, private prisons. get this. mississippi is now smarter than california on prison reform? come on, democrats. that is outrageous. >> and you can read more in our joint op-ed at cnn.com. let's check on our fireback results. how do you rate obama's management of the v.a. scandal? right now 32% of you say strong. 68% say weak. how would you two have voted? >> brutal. >> well, you know, let me just say this. we have, and i hope we all agree, we have a moral responsibility to people who have put their lives on the line to defend us, and in many cases have really suffered as well as their families. >> sir? >> i agree with the results. >> oh, that's terrible! i want to thank bernie sanders and dean heller. the debate will continue online as well as facebook and twitter. come on, folks, get in this

debate. from the left, i'm van jones. >> from the right, i'm newt gingrich. join us tomorrow for another edition of "crossfire." "erin burnett outfront" starts right now. next, president obama breaks his silence about the v.a. scandal. but it's not the first time he has been caught off guard by his own administration. what does it say about his leadership? plus, life in prison for selling hash brownies? that's what a texas teen is facing. does the punishment fit the crime? and "wheel of fortune" host pat sajak setting off a firestorm. who is he calling unpatriotic racists? let's go "outfront." >> good evening. i'm brianna keilar