drive the tractor. this is cnn tonight. i'm don lemon. you and i both know millions of people in this country smoke pot. as i said before i'm not entirely unfamiliar with it so a lot were shocked when we heard about the texas teenager who is facing a possible life sentence for baking and selling pot brownies. we'll bring in a team of experts to go head to head on this. does the punishment fit the crime? plus, how far would you go to save your own life? would you take a potentially risky drug, one that hasn't been approved by the fda? that question may not be as easy to answer as you might think. the so-called right to try is legal in colorado but is it help or is it false hope for desperately ill patients?

plus the stories you'll be talking about tomorrow surprising opinions about president obama's handling today of what some are calling the biggest scandal facing his administration. we're going to get into all of that tonight and we want to though what you think, as well. tweet us #askdon. i want to get something off my chest. as i was getting ready for this show i saw something that ticked me off. >> the rapper macklemore mocks jewish people. where is the media outrageous? nowhere. why? >> they being the mainstream media, they defend these hip-hop rappers. you know what i'll give him the benefit of the doubt here. i mean because i don't know the guy. >> a little coverage. no outrage on the macklemore story. really? roll the tape. he is in hot water after he wore

that costume. >> the ultimate depiction of the jew, hook-nose jew with this ethnic look. here's my beard. here we are, guys and especially when you put it together with the song that's why he did it. he was showing the jewish costume for thrift shop and i forgive him. stop the ridiculous defense. >> it was a heated discussion last night on our show that lasted for quite some time and by the way, bill, i'm glad you covered the bullying story tonight. we got into that issue as well. to your producers watching stay tuned. two stories upcoming that you won't want to miss. one more thing, bill, saying that the president should have fired eric shinseki, i do agree that the president could have seemed tougher on the head of the troubled veterans administration and understand why you think he should have been fired today but maybe the president did something that we all missed. maybe he actually did fire

shinseki, kathleen sebelius scale time-released in a matter of months he will probably leave to spend more time with his family after the president and his team parachute in to fix the problems he should have fixed a long time ago. here's a question for you, has president obama perfected the art of the nonfiring firing? clean up your mess and you can leave when the heat dies down? bill, we should know in a few months when the general likely checks out. i want to begin with the 19-year-old who faces the possibility of a life sentence for allegedly baking and selling pot brownies. he is jacob lavoro and had agreed but his father is here instead along with his attorney. thanks for joining us. why didn't your son show up and come for the interview? s>> >>. >> frankly, he's exhausted. he's never done anything like this before. never had all that limelight on

him and he was a nervous wreck. i told him to stay home. >> he had done five interviews today only and he really was becoming exhausted as you might understand so he wasn't trying to avoid being -- he is just exhausted. >> let's get into the issue then. police say jacob used hash oil to make 1 1/2 pounds in pot brownies tlachlt is a felony for that amount. did you have any idea that he could get in this much trouble? dad? >> i had no -- i had no idea at all, first of all, i had no idea that there was such a thing in the first place. i mean, i was just made aware of the activity when he was arrested. so i'm quite surprised. >> all right. joe and jack holmes, i want you to listen to what jacob said today in an interview.

here he is. >> sure, when i heard that i was going to get life in jail, my face turned like completely white and i had to throw up. >> so let me get this straight, the police weighed the flour, the eggs, cocoa and sugar together and that's how they came up with this charge, right, jack? >> that's how they came up with over 400 grams of controlled substance called thc which is the active ingredient in marijuana and measured tupperware and other containers to come up with that number, as well. they wanted to get the highest number possible but wanted to ensure they got over 400 grams so they could charge him with a first degree felony which carries a term in prison from five to 99 or life. >> i want to show this -- our viewers, they can get an idea -- this is about the amount here, about 1.5 pounds of brownies,

which is, you know, it doesn't appear to be that much. divided into nine bags of brownies in addition, he also had six bags of cookies i understand, about 16 ounces of marijuana and $1700 in cash found in his apartment. why did he have the brownies and why were they packaged up like that and what did he intend to do with them? >> well, first of all, it hasn't been proven who made the brow e brownies or who had possessions of the brownies. that's yet to be determined. 'simply been charged with it. there were three other people in the apartment at the time. one was his girlfriend and the other two were friends of his and neither one of those friends were even arrested for this. >> is jacob saying -- is he maintaining that he didn't make it and belonged to someone else? >> he's maintaining he wants a jury trial and a fair trial to determine all of that. >> okay. i understand that.

that wasn't my question. is he maintaining it wasn't him? >> that's all i can tell you. we're planning on going to trial. that's going to be determined by a jury. now, we're not denying that that was found in the apartment but who was in possession is still a question to be determined by a jury. >> joe, did you know what your son was up to? >> no, no. listen, of course, i understand what young people do today and may smoke marijuana. i believe that the -- if i'm not mistaken i heard some -- some -- someone say that "x" amount of people smoke pot today. i'm not shocked that he smokes or smoked marijuana. i am shocked that he's facing five years to life for

marijuana. that shocks the heck out of me. it doesn't seem right. >> okay. >> it doesn't seem -- >> go ahead. finish your thought. >> i'm sorry. excuse me. i'm astounded by the penalty for this situation. >> yeah, and obviously this has been tough on you and talked about that in an interview today as well. take a listen. >> it's pretty scary. i'm scared for my dad and my whole family. because it's not just me going through this. it's my parents too. >> so what has it been like for you and your family because, you know, we were talking about this today and we said many people all across the country in dorm rooms, apartments, they make brownies. listen, half my friends would be in prison if we all got that kind of sentence. how has this been for your family? >> it's been horrible. it's just -- it's been a horr horror -- we're a close family. i mean, all families are close

but we're a very close family. we get together often. we laugh, we joke, we argue but we're a very close family and we feel each other's pain always. losing a son to something like this is just too hard to imagine. his mom is sick. she's sick over it. and i think the message, first of all, that i'd like to get out is do you see young people -- there's a possibility that you could go to jail for the rest of your life because there are some folks in this world who are dra connic conic, what you -- >> i have to ask you because we have heard there is possibly going to be a plea deal offered. if he is offered a plea deal, will he take it? >> i can't answer that.

>> there's been no plea offer made at this time. >> if there is one, will he take it. >> could there be one in the future? >> will he take it. >> it depends what it is and it depends -- we'll till in the fact-gathering process right now. i just picked up the probable cause affidavit just about four or five hours ago, so i'm still gathering facts almost as we speak. if there's a plea bargain made in the future, we'll certainly consider it depending on what it is, but as of right now, we intend to go to trial because there's a very clear fourth amendment violation in this case of how these officers got into the apartment. they approached the apartment and announced they were maintenance men from the apartment complex. they didn't announce themselves as police officers. they announced themselves and they lied to the people inside saying they were maintenance officers. >> right. >> and then when the door was

opened, then they rushed in and then claimed they smelled the odor of marijuana. >> jack. >> under the law texas -- under the law, you cannot enter a residence without a search warrant just based on the odor of marijuana. >> all right. >> that's the law. >> all of that will come out as it proceeds. but we appreciate you joining us and, joe, listen, if jacob wants to join us on cnn we'll have him. thank you very much. come back -- >> we appreciate that very much. thank you so much for having us. >> all right. we have got a lot to talk about here tonight. when we come right back i want to bring in some experts who couldn't disagree more about america's marijuana obsession. some say we've already lost this particular war on drugs. others say we're putting our kids at risk. they'll go head to head next. also the right to try. "dallas buyers club" helped trigger a movement picking up steam. should dying patients have the right to try unapproved drugs as a last resort? we want to know what you think about all this. tweetd us using #askdon.

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could land him in prison for life. david ef sense a special adviser to the drug-free america foundation and criminal defense attorney. neal franklin, retired state police major and executive director of law enforcement against prohibition and back with us jack holmes who is representing jacob, so thank you, everyone, for joining us. neal, you know, we heard about a teen who could theoretically face life in prison for pot brownies. does this fit the crime? >> absolutely not this. is absolutely ridiculous. at a time when the administration of this country is moving in a direction of eliminating minimum mandatory sentences here we have this 19-year-old for baking pot brownies facing five years to life. time for these policies to disappear when we have colorado and washington state where

this -- where what he did wouldn't even be a crime. there is a legal process for him to go into business and bake the very same goods and it wouldn't be a crime. this shouldn't even be a crime. that's the bigger picture. >> you know, just today in colorado the governor signed two marijuana edible safety bills into law concerning packaging and the amount of thc in each product. doesn't that prove there are dangers with consuming this drug, neill? >> of course, there are dangers but the question is, do we want to continue down this road of illegal marketplaces, you know, with the cartels and neighborhood crews and gangs and organized crime managing the marijuana business where they use violence, coercion, kidnappings and who knows what else, guns in managing this illegal business multibillion dollar business or is it time to bring it above ground under the law put it into the hands of responsible business owners who value that license that's

hanging on the wall who are not going to employ children. >> okay. >> like drug dealers do, hire kids to sell in school and only sell to adults. >> i understand. i'm sure david is champing at the bit. you say hash is more potent and have the potential to seriously harm. is there justification for such a harsh -- >> i'm not in favor of putting anybody in prison for life. i'm a criminal defense attorney this. happens all the time. cops come in with a more serious charge knowing it's going to be plea bargained down to a lesser offense. in this case the prosecutor is offering no jail time so the prospect of him getting sentenced for five years or life is really not realistic at this point. the prosecutor is not doing that by the way, his activities would be illegal in colorado. you can't sell marijuana if you're 19 years old in colorado and the thc content in brownies is limited to ten milligrams per

serving. putting hash oil would exceed that so this would be against the law in colorado also and would be prosecuted. >> you're saying -- listen, you say you don't think they should -- this young man should go to prison for the rest of his life. doesn't it trouble you under the penal code, robbery, even murder gets the same amount of jail time? >> there is a potential for it but the reality is it doesn't take place. this was set up because of cocaine and heroin because drug sellers would mix cocaine and heroin with white powder or with flour and there was no way of separating it out. it really wasn't intended for marijuana. quite frankly, the law should be changed -- he isn't facing jail time to say all marijuana laws should be thrown out is really not an accurate way -- >> what do you mean he's not facing jail time. >> the prosecutor said he is offering a plea bargain where he will not face any jail time. >> he just said they had not

been offered a deal. the attorney -- >> i'm talking about what cnn reports. what you gave me before this interview according to cnn, what the prosecutor told cnn is that they're offering him a plea bargain and it will not include jail time according to your own report. >> i have not seen that report. >> i did. you should get it from your staff. that's where i got it from but the thing that bothers me the most we have a 19-year-old selling marijuana brownies illegal in colorado -- >> okay. >> who is he selling it to? >> there is no report about that so maybe, yeah, yeah. >> i have it right here in front of me i got it from your staff. >> i want you to listen to him about being in jail thus far. >> with the real criminals that laughed at me. i had told them everything. they -- they were like, you shouldn't even be here. you're not the kind of kid to be locked up. >> so if he lived in colorado

and got a job at a dispensary, of course, at 19 you said he can't do it, as a entrepreneur in a booming legal business instead of a criminal is it fair to have such starkly different laws state by state that are separated? i'll ask that to you, ben. separated by just 35 miles, by the way. >> i think you really hit the nail on the head. where my big concern, certainly jacob's case aside is inside the industry in colorado. it would have been a business plan certainly had he been 21 and had enough financial backing behind him and enough terrorizing support and whatnot but, you know, turning over control of the marketing and the manufacturing and the distribution of this substance to corporations, i'm not so sure that's the best idea either, in fact, i'm really sure it isn't because i'm in a state that has cartoon characters aggressively selling concentrates using just about any means that they can to get kids to try and buy this.

yeah, what's on the books is that they can't do it. the reality is we've christened an industry in colorado and that's something we really ought to pause long and hard to think about as a nation. >> gentlemen, stand by because marijuana is a topic raises strong opinions on both sides. you have been sending us your tweets to #askdon and we'll get them on next. first, look who else was baking some green brownies. >> can't you -- tell me what you're doing and rap. >> trying to bake some brownies but we missing the most important part of the brownies.

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a divisive issue in america but more and more people are changing their minds. 18% in favor of legalization years ago and now we're getting to yours. jack, clear something up. dave and i were talking about whether or not there was a plea deal. apparently there have been some reporting that there would be a plea deal would be offered but you are a saying there is not one. can you clear that up for us? >> yes, there hasn't been a plea offer made at this point and but i probably will be getting one shortly. i was just actually appointed as the attorney of record today, so i'm really not entitled to any documents relating to the case other than the public documents until today. i did pick up the probable cause affidavit in the case and i will

be getting what's called discovery which is the police reports and any dvds or photographs taken there of the apartment. i'll be getting those probably by the end of the week. >> all right. >> so i can have some additional facts to work with. >> neill, i want to go to you and talk about how police officers pursue drug cases. on the national level you say there are huge issues beyond this particular case in texas. explain that to me. >> well, when the national level i think there's just a huge waste of law enforcement resources. in addition to the civil asset forfeiture policy as cross this country where we continue to take money and property from people and never even charge many of them with a crime and in my opinion that's a violation of the fifth amendment of the bill of rights, but regarding the law enforcement resources i think that if we end the patchwork that we're seeing around this nation state by state right now

only have two states moving to legalization, if we end that with the federal government removes marijuana from the schedule i category and puts it in a more appropriate category then we can begin a process of i guess making these laws more consistent across the nation. >> so, but, dave -- >> across the country. >> polls show 55% of americans say marijuana should be legal and it seems like the country is already going to pot, dave? >> well, what's behind this is that there's now a big marijuana industry just like we had a big tobacco industry and putting a lot of money into it. very good hiring at hiring public relations people, doing media work but i think in time what's going to happen the public will realize just like they did with tobacco they're being lied to about the addictive nature of marijuana, just like we were lied to about the addictive nature of tobacco and will see what's going on. we're getting very bad data out

of colorado about the number of kid as kicked. drunk dri-- drug driving have doubled. they stand a one in six chance of being addicted and you've forgotten who he was selling to. he's 19 years old. probably selling it to other young people. marijuana is very damaging for young people. >> don, if i could interject something quickly right here. i'm in a unique position. i was a police officer for ten years before i went to law school so i've learned from both sides and i can tell you that i worked over 5,000 traffic accidents during my time as an officer and not one had a thc causing an accident, not one. now, alcohol, you can't count them. >> did you test for thc? >> that may be because texas has a tough law against marijuana but in colorado, the latest data coming out right now is that

fatalities due to marijuana fatalities due to driving have doubled since they've loosened up the laws there. >> all right. >> we're seeing now in california -- >> we're missing -- we're missing the main point here. we're missing the main point this industry has always existed, exists today. will exist in the future. the question is, who do we want managing it? do we want criminals and the cartels and organized crime or do we want responsible citizens managing this business? it's not going to go away. >> ben, if you want to get in, you've got to be aggressive with this crowd. you have to be -- >> i'm used to being a bit more of a gentleman than that. this industry has not always existed. we have not always have advertisement upon advertisement. we have not always had the mass acceptance then the huge effort to gain more acceptance to get more users and users who are already at it to use it more frequently. this is a brand-new thing and

very sophisticated thing. >> where have you been? >> on the street corner -- i'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic so i have been on the front lines of this and work inside of treatment. i am on the front lines of this. you give me the guy any day slinging dime bags on the street corner to the 20 lobbyists in suits running all over colorado to get to us relax all of the advertising laws that we've got out here. that's criminal and that's a terrible idea. the way that we could legalize in the states, we could do it so much smarter. >> thank you, guys. thank you guys and i'll take a note from -- >> underground -- >> we're all gentlemen here tonight and i thank you all for joining us on cnn. in the meantime, there is another controversial new law in colorado. this one prompted in part by the academy award winning film "dallas buyers club" and it's a matter of life and death. more on that next. i got this.

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how far would you go to save your own life? many terminally ill people are facing that question tonight now that the governor of colorado

signed the right to try bill, the first of its kind giving dying patients access to medication not approved by the fda. "dallas buyers club" helped inspire the law. we have more now. >> you've tested positive for hiv. >> reporter: it's a movie that helped trilogger a movement. in his award winning role matthew mcconaughey smuggled unapprove ed drugs into the unid states to treat aids patient in the 1980s. >> it put legislators on the line to say let's do it. >> reporter: "dallas buyers club" led to at least four so-called "dallas buyers club" bills. new state legislation to help patients get access to the therapies still being developed and tested. >> i said, he had stage four melanoma. >> reporter: amy is a widow. now a single mother of three young children. her husband nick lost his battle

with melanoma while seeking access to an experimental treatment. >> we've been trying for over six months to get on one of the trials. >> reporter: as just 41 years old nick a successful businessman outdoors pane and devoted dad had tumors in his spine, arm, leg and eventually his brain. he didn't qualify for the drug trials because his cancer kept spreading. >> to be told that for business reasons supply issues and safety concerns, you can't have the drug, you know, was devastating. >> reporter: it's people like nick that state lawmakers want to help. >> i think the one thing that people would agree to is that when you are terminal, you really still need hope. >> reporter: patients should be able to try a treatment. >> reporter: colorado governor john hickenlooper signed it saturday. similar bills on the desks of governors in missouri and louisiana and right to try measure goes before voters in arizona this fall and gives terminally ill patients a right to try a treatment without fda

approval potentially cutting months of waiting when some patients have no time to spare. the colorado right to try law instead requires a doctor recommendation. the unapproved treatment still has to pass phase one trials for safety, insurance companies don't have to cover patient costs and the drug companies have to be willing to give the patient access to the drug but the law doesn't force them to. that's where critics say these right to try laws fall short. >> they're going to need assistance in manufacturing more of their drug and quickly if they're going to give some of it away to people who are desperate. they're also in a situation where he don't want the fda telling them, hey, you gave this drug to six terminally ill people and they all died. did your drug kill them or did the disease kill them? >> ultimately the family have the fda's support but could not compel the drug companies to say yes. >> because in the end it's a billion dollar game. >> reporter: but amy remains hopeful this new legislation will pressure pharmaceutical companies to provide the drugs. >> i hope that this is just

going to be a change in the environment and a step in the right direction where they realize they can't get away with saying no when they can save a life. >> reporter: a life with no other fighting chance. anna cabrera, cnn, denver. >> i want to bring someone who knows. his son suffers with spinal muscular atrophy. he joins us tonight. thank you so much for joining us tonight. how is jake? >> jake is doing okay. he's struggling with pneumonia from flu he caught and was admitted on sunday but he seems to be progressing in the right direction. >> all right. let's talk about him. jake is 3 years old and suffers from spinal muscular atrophy. tell us about his struggle with the disease and his prognosis. >> sure. he was diagnosed when he was

roughly six months old. he's got type 2 which is he's able to sit but not stand or walk. he's, you know, he's a wonderful boy and his prognosis is the -- there's no treatment for it right now. there's a lot of clinical trials and potential in regards to it but there's really just a matter of being taken care of for him. there's no -- in terms of his development, there's a certain level he'll plateau which i think is probably pretty close to where he's at now and that's about the level of ability that he will have. >> are there drugs though which exist right now but which don't have fda approval that could potentially help your son? >> yeah, absolutely. i mean there's -- there's several of them, several different treatments coming through. one in particular is isis which

is an interesting drug going into phase three, very promising. obviously there's no promises that it will absolutely work until they're done with the clinical trials, but for the things that we're talking about, we're not asking for that. we're just asking for kind of the chance to use it if it looks like, you know, the risk is worth taking. >> so there are three phases, right. if a drug gets to three, then, you know, potentially it has some potential to help with the disease and next thing is a clinical trial so you're hoping now at phase three that he may be able to try this experimental drug. are you willing to take this risk, these risks even though it's at phase three now? >> yeah, you know, we've tried to get into phase two and he was excluded because he has a g tube which is gets fed directly through the stomach which was excluded but in retrospect seems that was a bad decision because can you control their diet and

their health a lot better that way so a lot of kids with g tubes are healthier. for phase three the issue for us is that because he's weaker, he's developed scoliosis, curvature of the spine and if it gets too bad he has to have rods put in in surgery so the concern and i understand that from the pharmaceutical company is that that's going to interrupt the clinical trial and so i understand from the clinical trial standpoint, but then again what do you do when you kind of fall out of that -- the criteria they have. >> my question, what do you do. i know scoliosis all too well. pie sister had it, nine months in a body cast and had to wear a brace for years so i know what you're talking about, she was a child. painful for a child. when it happened. what are you hoping to get out of this right to try legislation now that it has passed in colorado? how can it help your son? >> you know, for us it's just having the option or the chance

to do something that we feel the risk is worth taking. you know, there's other options out there. i could go to china and try some questionable stem cells and we've looked at that and decided it's not a risk we're willing to take but when we talk to people who have gone through phase one and phase two clinical trials and talk to our doctors and look at the research and make an educated decision about taking the risk, this is probably one that i most definitely would be willing to take when it comes to this type of drug. there are others coming down the pike. it would be nice to see a little more maturity but for me it's looking at the whole picture and, yeah, i understand until the fda approves it, you can't really say it's going to help, but what we're saying we want to give kids a chance because like right now he could get a flu and he might pass away before we're able to get to the point where fda approves something that will

help him and even if we try it, we know that there's -- it's not going to be a promise that's going to help but it's at least a chance. >> you understand everything that goes along wit. jason, thank you. best of luck to you and to jake and we appreciate you telling your story here on cnn. >> thank you very much. >> coming up, the right to try law passed this colorado. the first of its kind and are other states poised to follow suit? but could this new law harm people more than it would help? honestly, the off-season isn't i've got a lot to do. that's why i got my surface. it's great for watching game film and drawing up plays. it's got onenote, so i can stay on top of my to-do list, which has been absolutely absurd since the big game. with skype, it's just really easy to stay in touch with the kids i work with. alright, russell you are good to go! alright, fellas. alright, russ. back to work!

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welcome back, everyone. the right to try is spark a heated debate. joining me is lucy caldwell, communications director at the caldwell institute and dr. andrew vonner ervon. shenbaugh and cnn's elizabeth cohen, the author of "the empowered patient." david cruel, let's start with you first. when we hear jake's case, it makes a lot of sense to give his father the option to try. that could save his son's life. is it worth it?

>> i think we have to step back and realize that the reason that we have a drug approval process is so that we get drugs to people who need them as quickly as possible while also having a good measure of the relative safety of the drug in the particular setting where it's going to be used. so we do take into account that people are in sort of terminal life-threatening situations. and so a lot of times we really don't know until the drug gets almost all the way up to approval just how effective it's going to be. >> you don't think he should get that option until he gets almost up until approval? >> well, i mean, so phase one trials don't even tell you anything about effectiveness. phase one trials simply are there to determine safety. >> i understand that. >> phase two -- >> i understand that and i'll get to that but answer my question. you don't think that he should have that option until it's that late in the game when it comes to -- >> no, i believe that he should have the option. but we already have a system for

that. we have the fda has a compassionate use -- >> we don't. >> go ahead, lucy. >> we don't have a system at all in place. the reason the goldwater institute designed the right to try initiative is that we have a million americans that -- dying of terminal illness every year and the vast majority of them are locked out of accessing these drugs. am i saying there is a magical cure for every disease out there? absolutely not. but there are a lot of promising drugs that are in trials that families like jake's want to access and only 3% of the sickest patients by and large are even able to get into them so there is not a system in place. the system is broken and that's what right to try is going to change. >> there is a system -- >> don -- >> go ahead, elizabeth. >> there is a system but the problem is the system does not work very well. the system is laid out. there's, you know, it's all there in black and white but when you go to change.org and see patient after patient looking for these drugs and being told no, you just know

that something is just not quite working. i interviewed a man whose 15-year-old daughter has cancer in her brain, abdomen, pancreas, lungs, bones and even more places, went to plea major drug companies, told no by all three of them over and over again. >> i understand that but then -- >> so -- >> usually peep, though, drug companies don't like to give patients drugs because they say usually people, you know, they're so far gone that the drugs can't really help them once they're at the phase you're talking about, elizabeth. >> that's -- >> right. that's true -- >> don -- >> that is a problem so drug companies aren't going to like it if something goes on social media, makes a big deal and get the drug and then they die especially if it's a child. that is a pr nightmare. >> because they're not part of the controlled -- >> go ahead. >> yeah, you know, the point is that we all want early access, expanded access to these drugs.

that's not the issue. and it is true that we have a problem but we have to understand that problem before we embark upon a solution. you asked earlier is there potential harm to the legislation? the real question is, is it really going to fix and solve the problem and the answer is no because, one, there is theopportunity for expanded access. the fda has processes and procedures that have been in place. in 2013 there were almost 1,000 applications for -- >> exactly. >> expanded access. >> there are fewer -- >> there are only two rejected. >> go ahead, lucy. >> it's downstream. >> let's put that into perspective. the fda loves to talk about its 99% approval rating but talk about cancer. 500,000 americans get diagnosed with cancer every year and 40% of them try to get into clinical trials. that's about 200,000 people. the vast majority of them are not allowed in. does anyone really think that

even just focusing on cancer that only a thousand of them try to pursue it? no. they are locked out of the system. the fda locks them -- >> that's not the answer. >> let him respond. >> -- expanded access. >> let him respond. go ahead, doctor. >> that is expanded access. >> that is -- >> dr. eschenbach. >> it's not the issue. >> say again, dr. eschenbach. >> i was just -- >> lucy, hold on hang on. >> there's a lot -- lucy, there's a lot of emotion and the issue that you're putting on the table. there's no question about that. but we have to be rational and reasonable about this. the question that is at issue here is there are desperate patients who need and want access to experimental therapies and what we need is to do that

rationally and reasonably. one, to protect those patients but also to make sure that they are getting the right thing in the right way. so it's important to have an agency like fda that sets those kinds of principles and guidelines in place. the problem is not with the fda. you already alluded to the fact that what happens more often is the problem rests with the sponsor, the company, the person who or whoever owns the drug not being or not willing to be able to provide that drug for those circumstances. let's focus on that. let's fix that problem and this legislation does not do that. >> stand by, everyone. david and then elizabeth. david, go ahead. >> yeah, what i was going to say is one also has to remember that giving unfettered access to experimental theorapeutics coul potentially damage the opportunity of other patients to be able to get access to that

drug when it's approved. if there are very serious side effects that are detected with experimental use of drugs and there's a huge social media campaign around that patient getting the drug. if that patient's death is hastened, that could potentially create a firestorm that might influence fda's approval of that drug. >> yeah. and -- quickly, elizabeth, go ahead. >> one reason why the -- one reason why drug companies don't like to take on compassionate use patients is that as others have said, if something goes wrong the fda will say, wait a second. are we sure we want to approve this drug? look what happened to this compassionate use patient. we need to get into a room together, smart people and figure out ways the fda can sort of address this. the fda has to be involved. that is what drug companies executives and others have said to me. they have to be involved. >> you can't make companies do something -- >> very well said. >> that's going to have to be the last word. >> i have to take issue -- >> unfortunately --

>> i have to -- >> everybody is very passionate about that. when we come back -- we'll be back in a moment. capital to make it happen? without the thinking that makes it real?

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that lucy, man, she's passionate, isn't she? this is cnn tonight, tomorrow. yes, that is what we're cowing it tomorrow. our look at the stories you'll be talking about tomorrow. remember the guy who walked into

the stage and delivered pizzas to some of hollywood's biggest stars. edgar got a thousand dollar tip but that's not the end of his 15 minutes of fame. he and his brothers have opened up their own pizza restaurant called wood serving high-end miz haves including lamb and mint and arugula on the menu for your next oscar party. i'm don lemon. thanks for joining us. man, she was passionate. that's it for us tonight. "a.c. 360" starts right now. good evening, breaking news tonight in the v.a. scandal. president obama going slow but promising accountability. we're keeping them honest tonight. also ahead in the hour cover upallegations against donald sterling. they tried to bury the tape that's now burying him there are allegations of. should this guy have gotten a relative slap on the wrist for his seventh