don't do it, there's sort of a perverse incentive at these medical centers that if they do that, it comes out of their budget and they all get compared to each other. >> that sounds like a ridiculous bureaucratic reason, dealing with the lives of veterans, especially people who have served their country heroically. >> absolutely. we're sitting here memorial day weekend, and we ought to have this whole thing focused right now on the veterans. the blame game, the responsibility, the politics, they'll play out because they always do, but we ought to have a laser focus right now on taking care of veterans that are still out there, that are not getting these appointments. >> how much pressure, ryan, is the president under right now to force general shinseki, the secretary of veterans affairs, to step down? >> i think he's under a little bit more now because there's some democrats that are involved now in calling for shinseki to resign and obviously midterm politics is getting involved here. democrats in tough races are making this an issue. i think he's dealing with this quite similarly to how he dealt with hhs and secretary sebelius. he decided not to fire her

because the idea that there was you don't want to sack the captain while the boat's going down. you want them to be able to sort of fix it and stay on the job until it's repaired. and then, you know, frankly, push them out. >> let me ask drew. drew, nobody knows more about what's going on inside than you do right now. you've been all over this story for months and mons and months and tried to interview secretary shinseki on many occasions. he's rejected all your reiestqu. do folks inside the va worried deeply about what's going on, do they believe if he were gone tomorrow, it would change? >> i don't think so. many believe that shinseki was kind of caught in the dark on all this. it's this kind of mid-level bureaucracy that runs these vas all across the country. they all know each other. they all promote each other. and it's that kind of entrench bureaucracy that the folks on the inside see as being the problem. but to mr. nicholson's point, i

just want to add to that, you know, we tend to talk about this in a political crisis, when out in the country, where the vets are, this is a medical crisis. all this talk about shinseki resigning or who's to blame really doesn't matter to them. they want to know who's going to get my appointment and when can i see a doctor? right now while this political crisis gets hashed out and the blame game gets hashed out, they're still waiting, wolf. >> there was an article recently, i don't know if you saw it, mr. secretary, the national secretary wrote an article entitled, who broke veterans affairs? they went back through the history and say this has been going on, delays, bureaucratic nightmares forever, if you will. inluting while you were the secretary of veterans affairs. you must have been so frustrated, yourself. >> there are two different kinds of delays. there is a waiting list to get a disability rating. >> there was a waiting list when you were there as well.

>> actually when we came in, it was 270 days. we got it shaved to about 160 days. >> which is still too long. >> it's still too long. the standard is 125 days but there's a real large number of veterans that are queueing up for disability -- >> mr. secretary -- >> i'll say that in my own defense and defense of the current administration. there are more and more veterans showing up there. what the current problem is not for a disability rating, it's for medical care. >> secretary, you're being very diplomatic. i remember when you resigned in 2007 then-senator barack obama put out a very harsh statement. he said that secretary nicholson left the va worse off than when he started and it was one of the most tumultuous periods in va history. what did you make of that statement? was he being fair to you? >> he was on the veterans affairs committee when he was a senator. >> he was on the committee but never showed up. that was a political statement. i expected somebody that was running for president would take a shot like that and he would never come to the committee

meetings so he really had no basis to know what was going on. we did not have this current problem. in fact, we instituted and bought an electronic scheduling system. i think we called it project hero. and it was to facilitate these deployments. when a veteran would call in. we integrated it into the system. 153 hospitals spread around this country and even a huge clinic in the philippines in manila. it was going relatively well, but it had some hiccups in it and when we handed off the transition thinking we were going to be giving these books to romney, we gave them instead to obama and it said this electronic scheduling system still has some wrinkles that need to be wired out. >> is it fair to say that neither administration has been able to fix this system? >> the bush administration and the obama administration? >> let me finish the point. they took this whole system we had and for some reason set it aside and went back to the old

local laptop computer -- >> so is that secretary shins i shinseki's mistake do you think? >> i don't know why they ever did that. we had spent about $120 million on it and it was really starting to work. >> but when you resign, remind our viewers why you resigned. there was a lot of criticism. there was pressure on you as well. >> well, there's to pressure on me to resign. i have no pressure. the big flap we had on my watch we had somebody that took home a laptop and a hard drive that had the names of millions of veterans and his house got broken into it and somebody stole it. but soon as i found out about that and president bush found out about that, we took decisive action that day, held a press conference, told every veteran in the world that this has happened and hired companies to consult them. what's happening now is the president of the united states is not talking responsibility for this and what i think the root problem is with these hospital directors is, we've

seen this dishonesty and duplicity on the part of the president. if you like this plan, keep it. if you like your doctor -- so when they get jammed out there and they're all compared to each other, some of them, it appears, have succumbed, you know, to a weakness to create some kind of an offline system instead of being honest and transparent about it and saying i need help out here, i need reinforcements. >> if there are people at the department of veterans affairs who are lyinging and cheating and giving out false reports, you can't blame the president of the united states if there are some bad apples inside the system. >> well, i don't know. people look up to those above them and if they see that happening, and -- >> do they see shinseki doing that? >> oh, no. >> he's the secretary of veterans affairs. >> i don't think he's doing anything about it. >> he's the secretary of veterans affairs. >> he's responsible, but the ultimate person responsible for this i think is the commander in

chief. he is the guy who ought to now be taking that kind of decisive action to see that we take care of these veterans out there who still -- there are maybe more of these valdezes out there because if they were jammed then and can't make the appointments in 12 days, they can't now. >> let me let drew get into this conversation. drew, you have a question for the secretary? >> i'm hearing the political crisis instead of the real crisis. i wanted to ask mr. nicholson this question. it seems to me for a long time no matter who was in power, we had a lot of trouble bureaucratically running the va. when you were in that position, did anybody step back and say, why are we doing this? why don't we let these vets use their vet card as more or less an insurance card and go out into the public sector and get the health care that we need? why are we running a separate medical system just for veterans? >> well, that question does come up. and that's a fair question, i

think, but, you know, we have a sacred trust with veterans in this country, started with abraham lincoln who said we have to take care of him who fell and his widow and orphan. we created this absolutely fabulous system. there's no country in the world that takes care of veterans like the united states, but it's very big. we have 21 million veterans in our country, and we used to see about a million of them every week. they're now seeing more, according to the statistics that i read. so it's a very big spread out system and you have people out there remotely at those hospitals and have to act responsibly and act with integrity. >> i want to remind our viewers you not only a former secretary of veterans affair, not only a u.s. ambassador to the vatican, but also a former chairman of the republican national committee. right? >> yes, sir. >> just want to remind our viewers of that as well. >> i'm also a graduate of west point. >> we salute you for that, especially on this memorial day weekend. thanks very much for coming in.

>> a vietnam vet. yes. >> a vietnam vet. you're very committed to the veterans. there's a lot of work. all aftof us need to do right n. i want to make sure we don't get into too much politics right now because there's a serious issue. veterans' lives are on the line as drew griffin has been reporting. we got to do whatever we can to help those vets. secretary, thanks very much. brian, thanks to you. and drew, of course, thanks to you as well. just ahead, a massive fire ruining the memorial day weekend in one of the most beautiful parts of arizona. we're live at the firefighters command post. plus vladimir putin's latest challenge to the u.s. his brand new finger pointing on this, the bloodiest day so far in the ukraine crisis. hey, razor. check this out. listen up, thunder dragons, it's time to get a hotel. we can save big on killer hotels with priceline express deals. somewhere with a fitness center? hey you know what man, these guys aint no dragons.

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this just coming in to cnn. the pentagon reporting small-scale pullbacks of russian troops near the ukrainian border. that still leaves tens of thousands of russian troops, though, in place. this weekend could bring a new flashpoint in the crisis as ukrainians are voting for a new president. today has been the deadliest day of the crisis. let's go to senior international correspondent nick paton walsh on the ground with the very latest. what is the latest, nick? >> reporter: wolf, simply in the

last 24 hours, yesterday 16 ukrainian soldiers killed in an ambush. today two separate incidents which killed well over 30 people, many pro-russian militants. people looking at the vie vens for this coming weekend rather than the possibility for anyone to actually cast a vote. this is the sound of presidential elections in the separatist city, slovyansk. we're told periodically the ukrainian army fire heavy weapons artillery toward militant checkpoints and barricades on the outskirts of this town and those explosions really for weeks now have been the only presence people in this town have seen of the kiev government. if there were presidential elections at all here, they'd be run out of the building where the self-declared mayor now lives pledges to me that anyone who tries to stage a vote will be arrested. he shows me something remarkable

in his backroom. missile launches, he said, seeking possibly operational got in lawless 90s, now, he says to fight y ukrainian jets. to get the birds, he jokes. a ukrainian prisoner taken hostage 30 days ago. she agreed to talk to us, said she was unharmed but terrified. "all the time you think the building will be bombed" she says "and all the time people are waiting around with the siege of the building you're on your knees all night praying. that's how you live. the whole night you pray and during the day, you try to sleep." as the separatists fight gets harder and they are digging in around slavyansk, the

separatists seem to be fa fracturing. their main leader isn't spoken well of here. "from the start i knew who he was" he says "a temporary fig wr year, no political significance. i met him once and said hello and good-bye." falling out amongst themselves under siege, the russia they wanted to join distancing itself but the government they oppose unable to assert control, isolated but still here. now, across ukraine, they'll vote on sunday but many will not vote here. that probably is enough to make moscow able to say these elections haven't been the legitimate chance for everyone in ukraine to express their opini opinion. whether or not, though, the disruption we're seeing by pro-russian militants is enough for washington to say that's reason to bring in sectoral sanctions, wider sanctions against parts of the russian economy. we have to wait and see, wolf. >> critical hours coming up this weekend. thank you. just ahead, the massive fire is ruining the memorial day

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massive out of control wildfires changing everyone's weekend plans in one of the most beautiful parts of northern arizona. cnn's ana cabrera is on the scene for us. what is the latest there? >> well, you can see the fire still burning very strong based on all the smoke and the haze in the air behind me. we had a chance to go into the fire zone to get a better look at some of the firefighting in action today. as this fire has charred now 7500 acres and is just 5% contained. and one of the reasons it's been so challenging for firefighters to get this fire under control is because the very steep and rocky, rugged terrain as this fire burns through some very heavy and dry fuel, a combination of ponderosa pines, pine needles. so they're having to use a lot of the air support, helicopters

making huge dumps of water, fire retardant, and they're pucksing their fire lines on the burnout operation. so basically, controlled burns where they're able to sort of get ahead of the fire, put fires there, get the fuel out of the way. and that's going to be the key as this firefight continues, wolf. >> ana cabrera, thanks very much. just ahead, incredible pictures of a mountain climber's escape from death. but first, this impact your world. >> he has photographed presidents, heads of state and celebrities, but marco grobb's passion lies with a different subject matter, land mine victims. >> land mines you find pretty much everywhere where a conflict ends there is not much i can do as a photographer, really. but the one thingy do is give those people affected a face and a name. >> reporter: grobb travels to

mine areas alongside the united nations mine action service, or unmas. >> unfortunately boys are often victim to especially cost ammunition which still look like toys. then there is the aspect and unexploded ordnance. piles of ammunition. what is in afghanistan right now could show up at some sunny afternoon at times square. unthinkable. >> grob wants the portraits to speak for those with the fear of land mines every day. >> i would like people look at these stories and think of how even when we have our to deal with our daily problems, at least we don't have to be scared to take a step. captain: this is a tip. bellman: thanks, captain obvious.

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a mountain climber's research expedition turned into a life or death struggle. on monday in the himalayas, he fell into a crevasse in a mountain ice sheet. he was injured and bleeding. the only way out was a climb of about seven stories. after some five hours of struggle, not only did he make it, he brought this incredible video with him. i'll be speaking with him later tonight 8:00 p.m. eastern when i fill in for anderson cooper.

also i want to remind you about a special show coming up soon on cnn, a new series from executive producers tom hanks and gary gutsman, "the '60s." set premier for next tuesday night only here on cnn. that's it for me. see you in one hour. "erin burnett outfront" starts right now. next, nightmare in the sky. two united airlines flights full of passengers come within seconds of a mid-air collision. plus, ten years after she vanished, a woman reappears. she says she was kidnapped. but some who know her don't buy it. and another nba owner under fire for comments about race. it is because he you used the word "hoodie"? let's go "outfront." >> good evening, i'm brianna keilar in for erin