>> hueneme the majority, yes. >> what about you? >> i'm yes. but i don't want it to endanger the troops. >> listen, it. to thank you both for being here. the debate will continue online at cnn.com/crossfire. from the left i'm van jones. >> from the right, i'm newt gingrich. join us again next time for another addition of "crossfire." "erin burnett outfront" starts right now. next, breaking news in the case of sergeant bowe bergdahl. a white house official just now giving cnn new details about the operation that freed him. plus an "outfront" investigation on bergdahl's platoon. reports of disorganization, lax security. we have the investigation. and we're now getting new excerpts of hillary clinton's much anticipated memoir. she is distancing herself from the president big-time, and we're going to tell you why. let's go "outfront." >> good evening, everyone.

i'm erin burnett "outfront" tonight. breaking news. we are now -- we've got new details about the moments leading up to sergeant bowe bergdahl's release. so here is what we know. white house deputy national security adviser just told wolf that the location to pick up bergdahl was not known, get this, not known until just beforehandoff. >> we didn't reach an agreement in principle until about three and a half days before bergdahl was actually released to us. we didn't know the general location of where we would pick him up until an hour, until the day before, excuse me. and we didn't know the precise location until an hour before. >> didn't know the precise location until the hour before. and can you imagine that? and then going and putting that helicopter out, putting those lives at risk. how stressful this must have been. one hour before is the only notice they had, and that is why the administration says it did not inform congress with that 30-day period that they were supposed to provide them. barbara starr is at the pentagon

tonight. barbara, that is a pretty incredible and unbelievable detail. >> jaw-dropping, erin. just flat-out jaw-dropping. a one-hour notice. what if the weather had gone bad? what if they had been shot at on the way in? what if that helicopter had run into mechanical problems? no more gin for delay, no margin for error. this is the ultimate of u.s. military leaving no one behind on the battlefield. >> reporter: bowe bergdahl may have tried to escape his taliban captors on at least two occasions, a u.s. official tells cnn. but until the army can talk to bergdahl directly, they won't know for sure. however, a u.s. official says we do have reason to believe there were times he tried to escape. bergdahl may not yet have fully talked about his five years in taliban captivity, but he is recovering after nearly a week under u.s. military medical care. the pentagon said he is now

speaking in english to the medical staff treating him. participating more in his recovery treatment, and is resting better. the administration continues to insist bergdahl's health and safety were at risk, and to make the point, showed senators a classified video of bergdahl from december 2013. >> he looked terrible. and i think that video should be released at some point. he could barely talk. he couldn't focus his eyes. he was downcast. he was thin. he looked like a man -- i looked around the room as that video was shown, and i think it was clearly effective when the video stopped. it wasn't very long, maybe 30 seconds. there was dead silence in the room. >> reporter: an afghan security official who was on duty near where bergdahl was captured in 2009 told cnn when local villagers spotted bergdahl after he left his base, they tried to

get him to leave the village, telling him the area was dangerous. the official said bergdahl appeared to be under the influence of hallucinogenic substances. cnn has spoken to several u.s. officials who could not independently confirm those accounts. so we now see the huge risk that these special forces took to get bowe bergdahl. but still, erin, make no mistake, there are a lot of questions that the army and the pentagon want to ask bowe bergdahl. they want to know how and why he disappeared, and what happened during his captivity. erin? >> all right, barbara, thank you. and "outfront" tonight, kimberly dozier. she is a long-time war reporter, covered the wars in iraq and fbi. and former fbi counterterrorism agent tim. you heard about bowe bergdahl's attempts to escape the taliban twice. what have you heard? >> u.s. and after began

officials tell me there were two attempts, one in 2011, and one late in 2012, early 2013. in the first one, he actually got away for about 48 hours. he escaped his captors and hid in -- he dug himself a ditch in the mountainous region of north waziristan of pakistan where he was being held. they found him, took him back. about a year later, he got away again. this time it was villagers who spotted him and just turned him back in to the taliban. this is an area where any foreigner is going to be spotted. after that, i'm told that the taliban captors really increased the numbers of people watching him and made it a lot harder for him to escape, which made it a lot harder for rescuers who were thinking about some sort of raid to get him out. >> some people might say this is proof he didn't want to be there to begin with. but i guess it really isn't. it's prove proof he didn't want to be there at that time.

but it still didn't answer the question whether he intended to go or not. >> it doesn't answer why he originally left his base. but the officials i've been speaking to said v said that wasn't part of their calculation. this was an american serviceman who was missing. they had to try as best they could to figure out where he was and to present possible options for getting him back. >> so tim, the administration is talking about bergdahl's health. they played that 30-second video you just heard the senator talking about in barbara's piece, which is interesting because it's back from december, and they're saying when they saw that, they were so worried about his health they had to move with just days' notice in june. obviously that's a little bit confusing. but also, the real condition he was. in tom coburn, he is a republican, but he is also a doctor, saw the video. he spoke exclusively to our dana bash. he said bergdahl wasn't sick, he was drugged. i want to play it exactly how he said it. >> he had been drugged, either with a anti-psychotic or hypnotic drug. >> what makes you say that? >> because you can tell. it's easy. his speech was slurred.

he was having trouble reading. he had what is calledist nysti. is that something the taliban would have done, drugged him before the video, you think? >> erin, it's hard to say. obviously senator coburn is a medical doctor and i'm not. and i haven't seen the video. so i can't make my own diagnosis on it. i wouldn't believe it would have been impossible for the taliban to have drugged him or for him to have drugged himself. if the villagers say it appeared he was on hallucinogens first leaving the base, there poppy and hash hereby and heroin are big products coming out of that area. it's possible he got access to the drugs that the taliban had there in their possession. >> that's an interesting point. so kimberly, why didn't they try to rescue him earlier? i mean, there has been reports

that they several times knew his location. did they know he was trying to escape? why didn't they try, especially in the times when he tried to escape? clearly at those times these guarded by an incredible number of people. if he was able to escape on his own. >> they knew about the first escape attempt. but months later. not in time to react in realtime. several times they thought they knew the general area where he was being held. but senior administration officials i have spoken to have said they never were able to present a plan to the president and say we think he is here, and that is how we would get him out. one administration official told me that they would have had to hit 12 different locations. and he was very specific. a dozen different locations simultaneously to make sure they were getting the exact place where bergdahl was being held. >> all right, thank you very much, both of you. i appreciate your taking the time. and i do want to tell you about a breaking news situation we're just learning about in seattle that is just coming in right now. a live picture of seattle

pacific campus there has been a shooting there. the seattle fire department says it is considering a multicasualty incident. medics have transported at least one adult male to the local hospital. we're going to continue following this breaking story and bring you updates. as i said again, this is a live picture, multicasualties in seattle. that is really all i can tell you at this time. so as soon as we get more information, we're going bring that to you. and you heard me pause, because i do have a little bit more information for you. one suspect now in custody. another suspect, though, still at large is the latest that we have. but again, no numbers of casualties except they are saying multicasualty incident, shooting incident at this time. so as we get more information, we're going share that to you, share that with you. we're going to take a brief break as we work on that story. and we'll also be talking about the administration's changing story on why it brought bowe bergdahl back. a big change in the reason. they had a short reason and now it's a different one. and some excerpts that

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i want to update you on the breaking news situation in seattle at this moment. i want to show you a live picture of seattle pacific campus. there has been a shooting there. the seattle fire department tells cnn it's considering it a

multicasualty incident. the seattle police tweeting at this moment there is still conflicting information on the number of victims. three confirmed, but s.w.a.t. still searching campus. one suspect is in custody, according to police. as you can tell, we don't know much. but as we learn more, we are bringing it to you in this developing situation right now at a campus in seattle. i want to go to our affiliate right now, kcpq and listen in to what they know at this moment. >> but this is going to be here for a long time. it's a crime scene investigation now as they try to figure out what happened. and, again, we don't have much information about the suspect or how they took him into custody. i'm hoping to get that here for you shortly. >> just waiting to see if he was going to answer a question there. literally, as this is developing, we're taking a live shot from an affiliate. so you're hearing that reporter report out the very latest that he knows. you're looking at an aerial shot

of the seattle pacific campus with the athletic fields. i'm not familiar with the campus, but i can tell you this, that there are reports of three casualties. we don't know whether that means injuries or fatalities, and we don't know if there are more. we do know one suspect is in custody at this moment. so we're going to get you more information just as soon as we are able to figure that out. well, tonight president obama is firing back at those questioning his decision to swap five taliban leaders for army sergeant bowe bergdahl. here is the president. >> we saw an opportunity and we seized it. and i make no apologies for that this is not a political football. you have a couple of parents whose kid volunteered to fight in a distant land. who they hadn't seen in five years. and weren't sure they would ever see again. and as commander in chief of the united states armed forces, i am responsible for those kids.

>> now, though, the white house is changing its reasoning for moving so quickly on the prisoner swap. and they emphasize the reason timing matters is they're required by law to give a 30-day notice to congress when they're going to transfer anyone out of guantanamo. they failed to do so in this case. they gave a reason. the first reason was bergdahl was sick. >> his health was growing more fragile. he had lost a good bit of weight, and we were very concerned that time was not something we could play with. >> now officials, though, are moving off the health issue and telling lawmakers their concern was that bergdahl could have been killed. >> they had intelligence that had even the fact of these discussions leaked out, there was a reasonable chance bowe bergdahl would have been killed. >> "outfront" tonight, cnn political commenter sally kohn. all right, sally, why can't the white house get its story straight? >> well, i don't know that they

haven't. i don't see a contradiction at this point. they're saying the reason to do it urgently was because of his health. in the video they just showed lawmakers was from five months ago. they notified congress in december. but look, the part of the reason they didn't tell congress sooner is they were concerned about leaks. don't just trust democrats on this. general stanley mcchrystal said the same thing. and as long as we're speculating, let's be honest. if i were the white house right now, given the intensity of the republicans in congress and their desire to scuttle the president on anything, and frankly, politicize every issue of national security, i would wouldn't trust them either to go to them with this and not leak it, to be completely frank. and i think that was the white house's concern. they were warned that if this was leaked, the taliban would kill bergdahl. and frankly, i think that that's not a risk you want to take. >> you think that's fair? they told senior leadership if you leak this, the kid is going to get killed, do you think they would have leaked it? >> i don't think so.

but i don't think is about republicans and democrats there are a lot of service members who served with bergdahl who are coming forward to talk about this because they see a strategic issue. during the bush presidency, then senator obama often raised serious questions about the bush administration's strategy. and when you're talking about releasing a prisoners from guantanamo who are high value targets in exchange for an american soldier, for an american marine, this is a strategic question about the choices we're making and the message we're sending to america's foes. that is a legitimate political issue. >> this shell game of constantly oh, it's about having notified congress, oh, no, no, no, it's about sergeant bergdahl and his conduct and whether he is actually a traitor or what not. we never then -- republicans never want to get to having a serious conversation on either issue. >> it's not -- >> the fact of the matter is we take care of our own, and we punish our own. we don't leave anyone behind. if he is a traitor, a deserter, we deal that w that here. >> i didn't say the word traitor and i didn't say the word deserter. those are not republicans, those

are veterans. we're talk about this because it matters to them. we're not talking because -- >> also saying he should have been brought home. >> and there are a lot of them saying that. you both have a point in terms of what veterans are saying. let's just talk about the politicization here. this is an issue. you see susan rice again on the talk shows saying some things that perhaps were not -- maybe she wouldn't say them in quite the same way now, but she said it. and then you have harry reid saying something. let me just play it, sally, because i think you will laugh at this when i play the thing i'm going to play. here is harry reid. >> how come it seems you were the only one who got a heads-up the day before. >> i'm not sure i'm the only one. it made a big deal over nothing. the whole deal is it friday or saturday? what difference does it make? what difference does it make? >> and what difference does it make? here is hillary clinton. >> we had four dead americans. was it because of a protest or was it because a guys out for a walk one night decided to go

kill some americans. what difference at this point does it make? >> not exactly the best word choice for harry reid. >> no, but at the same time, again, here is hillary clinton. and in this case harry reid saying, look, we need to bring our soldiers home. everyone who volunteered to go serve in this war, the war is ending. we don't leave anyone behind. and by the way, first of all, a war is ending, you trade prisoners of war at the end of the war period, regardless. it would have happened anyway. and second of all, bush era lawyers are saying they had no grounds to keep holding these folks. it's over. it's a legitimate swap. and it is being politicized. and sergeant bergdahl is being dragged through the mud without any fact. >> there are still a lot of questions about that. i hit pause for just a moment. i want to show everyone a live picture right now of what is happening at seattle pacific campus. our affiliate right now has an eyewitness, and i want you to be able to listen in. >> the shooter in handcuffs on the ground. and it appeared that he wasn't alive anymore. he thinks that the guy who

pepper sprayed him may have been a student here who is also working on security at the front of the building as well. they brought those students out. and actually for quite a while, they were out here on the street being frisked themselves and interviewed to make sure they were not a suspect as well. but these kids say a frightening thing. one of them said he never imagined when he woke up this morning that he would be coming to college, a very safe college campus and be dealing with this by the afternoon. >> let me compare some of the information i have from a law enforcement source. compared to what you have, i'm being told that the shooter was very agitated. the shooter is alive right now. and that the shooter was pepper sprayed. and that was why he was in the condition that you said. but you're telling me that your witnesses said the shooter did not appear to still be alive, but was handcuffed? >> they said there was somebody on the ground who appeared to be dead who was handcuffed. so we're getting some different information out here. >> sometimes when you have a scene like this, the officers will come, and they'll just handcuff everybody. >> true. >> just because they don't know who the shooters are and who the victims are. it's likely that also could be

one of the shooting victims that was shot in the eye by the suspect. and again, certainly too early to know what a motive is. >> i will say this. one of the other students we talked to earlier who peeked out the room and saw bodies on the floor, and she saw what she believed about the shooter, and she told me she recognized him adds a student here at the school. and that disturbed her greatly, obviously. that's what she said. >> and so the students were inside, and they've all been brought out of the building now. you saw some of them being escorted off campus and brought to safety. >> they were searched and brought over into this bank parking lot here. but the officers just came by a few moments ago and started picking and choosing some of these students. they said they wanted to bring them to the gymnasium. i guess they wanted to interview them further on what they saw and heard today. >> so we don't know if the person who pepper sprayed the suspect at this point was a security guard, which would be a seattle police officer, or if it was another student here or somebody on the campus at this point. but we do know that the person pepper sprayed the shooter, and that the shooter told him and

another person don't move. and when the other person moved, he shot them. so it's very early in the information. and witnesses are always going to be conflicted on the statements when they come out. the main thing for the safety of everybody here, the shooter is only one shooter and that person is in custody. >> and that's the good news here. but as you can see, it's still a frantic scene here around this campus. and they're symptom going around the campus as well, the seattle police, looking for any information or any evidence they can find. >> and again, students got an e-mail -- >> and you're listening to our affiliate kcpq in seattle. a shooting at the seattle pacific campus. where at this point, as you heard the scene described as frantic. they're trying to figure out exactly what happened, how many casualties. multiple casualties at this time. we're trying to figure out how many people and what their condition. right now as well as the status of the shooter. our breaking news coverage of this story continues in just a moment. we'll be right back. sfx: car unlock beep.

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but that would require wifi. switch to comcast business internet and get two wifi networks included. comcast business built for business. we want to update you on the breaking news situation in seattle we're following. this is the campus of seattle pacific. there has been a shooting there. the seattle fire department is telling us medics have transported four gunshot victims. the injuries varying from miner to life threatening. police say a suspect is in custody, and we're told there are no other suspects currently being sought. like so many of the cases at first, they had been looking for a second shooter, but it has turned out now there is the one shooter in custody, and it appears then that that shooter is alive, which is obviously unusual for these cases.

former fbi counterterrorism agent tim clemente. tim, let me start with you. as a former member of the fbi, we're also learning the fbi are on the scene. what would they be doing? >> it's possible the fbi s.w.a.t. team is assisting with the locals. i was s.w.a.t. team leader here in washington, d.c. for the fbi. and we routinely trained with all local law enforcement tactical teams in the case of an active shooter like this. and in the fbi, we would also possibly join in the investigation because of federal aspects that might be involved. the state murder is generally a state investigation. but anything above that could bring the fbi in for investigative assistance. >> all right. i just want to update you on the information we have. tim, as you were speaking, we now know according to the fire department, just telling cnn, there is a male and a female with life threatening injuries at this moment, and two men with more minor injuries. in terms of the four victims at this point that we are aware of.

we don't know if there are more, but those are the four we're aware of. lou, you have dealt with these kind of situations. what would you be looking for right now? >> well, clearly a motive. and what we're doing right now, what we're looking for is information that could lend itself to crime scene expertise, interviewing individuals, trying to piece together a sequence of events that took place. we're collecting all the tapes on the campus that may have video recorded this. we're doing a number of different things to try to put the sequence of events together and to solidify the facts that it was one shooter, for example, and the nature and the way that the shootings were carried out. >> tim, it's interesting that at first the reports were that they were looking for a second shooter, which we hear so often. we heard it in fort hood recently. we heard ate the navy yard shooting. there is always this looking for the second shooter. it ends up most times just being

one shooter. this time, though, something unusual. the shooter in custody. the shooter is not dead that. >> is rare. because erin, ordinarily these guys commit suicide at the end of a heinous act like this. this guy didn't for whatever reason, or maybe he didn't have time to. he was surprised by law enforcement. but the problem with these situations, eyewitnesses in a situation of extreme stress like this aren't very reliable. and so the descriptions of the shooter may have been drastically different by different eyewitnesses, which may have been the reason why law enforcement is looking for more than one shooter. it's very common. it happens. and as lou just said, you have to filter through all that, try and get the fax, get down to the facts, determine was there one shooter, and if so, why did he do this and what was the problem that caused him to do this, and first of all make sure all other personnel are safe. and once you have retrieved that, secure the crime scene so that a criminal investigation can proceed. >> lou, what is the significance? i emphasize this is preliminary

reporting. but what we understand right now is the shooter is alive that is incredibly rare. and people are so often from newtown to fort hood to navy yard never knowing why somebody did something so horrible and destroyed so many lives. in this case we may know. >> well, you know, every case is different, erin. and in this instance, this individual may have decided to stay around to bask in his notoriety. these people are not mentally balanced. we know they're emotionally disturbed oftentimes. and it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what their end game. is this just another way to attain attention. in santa barbara it was the vendetta. every one of these cases are unique into themselves with one common denominator, mental illness. and in reference to the looking for two shooters, that's standard operating procedure. we're never going to come to a crime scene where there is a shooting and just assume there is one shooter.

we're going to exhaust all of our investigative skills to narrow down how many people actually participated in a particular event. >> and i want to bring in jeff beatie now, former fbi special agent. jeff, you did so much work on the boston massacre and that situation, and of course the shooting that happened during that that chase. what is your take on what we're look at right now, or what we're hearing about as we're still trying to figure out the number of casualty, how many people were injured. we know at least two with life threatening injuries. but we do know the suspect is in custody. >> well, and you're right that is very unusual. i'm watching your air right now and seeing a theme. at this point, i would be not so much concerned about their motivation, but the security of the scene. and some of your guests have talked about looking for that second shooter. they now believe there is only one. but a shooter doesn't have to be the secondary threat. you know, we've seen people who

have showed up, klebold and harris and others who started shooting sprees and they had explosives in their. i'm a little concerned that there are people just standing around on the street. i don't see dog teams working, you know, to make sure that will is no explosives in any of the parked cars, any of the bushes or anything around there. and there are civilians just walking through there. there is a technique called a beta trap ambush. it was used against law enforcement in atlanta by eric robert rudolph at the clinics on the north side of town where there was an initial threat. people responded to it and then they were targeted by a bomb as a secondary threat. it doesn't have to be a shooter, erin. secondary threats can be explosives. so security at the scene is a big concern i have at this early point. >> all right. very interesting point that jeff makes as we said, former fbi special agent. i can tell you just looking at it with the seattle times, local newspapers reporting, they are doing the strip searches of some of the students right now.

but that's the latest that we have. certainly you don't see that here. for those familiar with it, my understanding was the shooting was near otto miller hall. as we get more information, we're going to come back to this. thank you very much to lou, to tim, to jeff. all right. and i do have a little bit more right now, which is the suspect is being taken to police headquarters. so we had said -- we had said in custody and now going to police headquarters. we have the affiliate reporter? let's listen to our affiliate, kcpq. >> the shooting happened just inside the door and up the steps of the university there are some 30 shotgun shells, and that's a rough estimate on the floor of the building there. and again, we have three victims. we know one was in very bad condition, critical condition. the other one was able to walk out. we don't know the condition of the third right now. but again, some of the officers on the scene here that were first here say there are a number of shotgun shells inside there, which would appear that he was able to reload that

shotgun. he was very agitated according to witnesses when he got here. there were two people here that he was talking to. and he told both of them don't move. and then one of them moved and he shot that person in the eye with the shotgun. guys, i'm getting a little feedback here. so if you're asking me questions, i can't tell. let me reset this with my photographer, and i'll get right back to you. >> all right. so you just heard the development that we have there. obviously the custody, the suspect is now in custody and being transported to police police headquarters. you just heard the description from our affiliate reporter on kcpq in seattle. the suspect was very agitated. approached two people in otto miller hall on that campus and said don't move. one of them moved. he then shot that person in the eye. our understanding, he was reporting three casualties. the numbers are very fluid. we're hearing four right now.

from officials in seattle who say two of them right now are fighting for their lives. as we get more information on this, we're going to come back to it. i want to take a brief break as we try to get a little bit more detail here for you on the breaking news of the shooting at a university campus in seattle. we'll be right back. [ female announcer ] grow, it's what we do. but when we put something in the ground, feed it, and care for it, don't we grow something more? we grow big celebrations, and personal victories. we grow new beginnings, and better endings. grand gestures, and perfect quiet. we grow escape, bragging rights, happier happy hours. so let's gro something greater with miracle-gro. what will you grow? share your story at miraclegro.com.

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built for business. i want to update you on the breaking news situation in seattle. you're looking at the live picture of the shooting scene at the seattle pacific campus. there has been a shooting on that university campus. the seattle fire department is telling us that medics have transported four gunshot victims. that's the latest that we have. the numbers are fluid. they could change. four is the number we have right now. at this moment, one of the men, one woman being treated with life threatening injuries. another man and woman are said to be in stable condition. and the suspect we can now report is in custody. s.w.a.t. apparently still clearing buildings. they have been searching students. at first they thought there could be a second shooter. now our understanding is they have ruled that out. we're trying to understand exactly what happened. a teacher's assistant just spoke

to our affiliate at the scene. i wanted to play what she said. >> we just heard muffled sounds. we were regarded from another student who has the hesitation to go back inside the building to lock down, to just remain

>> the book was written and finished before this news event. she writes, quote, acknowledged as i had many times before that opening the door to negotiations with the taliban would be hard to swallow. >> and there are other parts that i know you have taken a look at where she does say that's him. i'm over here. >> that's right. and that is subtle. you're definitely right on that, erin. you're right after she wrote this book. we do know in recent reporting that she was skeptical of early plans to do a prisoner swap for bowe bergdahl. so this highlights that. although her spokesman has come out and said she did negotiate, or she did authorize negotiations with the taliban. and she didn't dismiss something like this out of hand. what we're seeing a starker difference in some of these excerpts from the book obtained from cbs news has to deal with syria.

>> but this was the president's call. and i respected his deliberations and decision from the beginning of our partnership, she writes, he had promised me that he would always -- that i would always get a fair hearing, and i always did. in this case, my position didn't prevail. so you're seeing really stark lines on that issue of syria, erin. >> all right, breanna, thank you very much. pretty interesting how she is trying to distance herself. think about her as a presidential candidate, and it makes a lot of sense. we're following the breaking news story in seattle. at least four people have been shot on the campus of seattle pacific university. we are getting a little bit more information. we're working on our sources right now. we're going to take a brief break and come back and give you all of the new details. this is kevin. male a] to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol.

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i want to update you on the breaking yous in situation in seattle. there's been a shooting there near otto miller hall. the seattle fire department is telling cnn they have four victims of the shooter right now. two of them fighting for their lives, a man and a woman and then another man and woman are, our understanding who are in stable condition. the suspect is in custody and is alive. and a witness to the shooting says the shooter appeared

agitated before shooting a victim. so let's just bring in our guest here, tim clemente and lou columbo. let's just ask you, tim, you hear that the shooter appeared agitated, in the hall, approached two people and one shot in the eye. what -- does that give you enough information to at all? >> gives me little bit of information about the fact he was agitated in a situation like this, obviously he's going in there obviously to harm people. but generally, these circumstances we find like the shooter in santa barbara most recently, what we call injustice collectors and known by that from a profiling perspective because what they do is build up the slights and injustices in their life and use them as ammunition and in an act like this they feel totally justified in destruction or death because they've been slighted in some way. look at the santa barbara guy. he didn't have a girlfriend and

justifies him to kill as many as dozens of people trying to kill so these people, lou mentioned earlier mental illness is obviously a factor in most of the shootings and clearly might have been in this case and an individual coming in agitated, i don't know if the people that he shot were the actual or intended targets or just targets of opportunity. the first people that presented but this guy, i mean, we are going to look into the background, obviously. he is alye and can be interviewed and interrogated and come to find lou is probably right about the mental illness and some things that were done to him and he feels is justification to do something to other people in response. >> lou, we're hearing now the seattle police department holding a media briefing soon with what they know so obviously the second that starts we'll bring it to you live. lou, again, i'm going off of what some of the viewers heard from the breaking news coverage. affiliate reporting and saying on our air.

we have not independently confirmed it but talking about a shotgun, an intent to reload. what are you able to figure out from that in terms of, you know, possible planning or preplanning? >> well, i would think, obviously, he had planned to do this. i don't think it was spontaneous. the weapon chose which is a shotgun probably one of the most if not the most lethal small arm to be shot with. the wounds channels and ballistics with the weapon is devastating and very, very hard to survive gunshot wounds and projectiles and very interesting weapon. the second part of this thing is whether or not he just arbitrarily chose targets. in other words, if this was, for example, some type of domestic disagreement, someone going out with his girlfriend, he would have a specific target. it appears as if he arbitrarily started to shoot at people and why i made the statement that i

believe it's associated again mental illness. >> with mental illness. i want to bring in our stephanie elam starting to work the sourcsourc sources from los angeles and what have you been able to figure out? >> one thing for clarity, erin, just how police are trying to clear the buildings around where the shooting occurred. there's a discrepancy of one or two shooters. we believe that there is one. we're still looking to confirm that but what we know is going building by building, the s.w.a.t. team there according to the official seattle police department, twitter account, and going through and cleaning out the buildings and these rooms to make sure there's nobody else in there, completely safe and locking down this area where the shooting has happened, make sure there's not anymore shootings that were going to occur and they believe they have that they have one person in custody and taking down to the station they're saying and since he's alive there's more that we could learn from this but at this point right now we know that there are those four victims,

two men and two women. two with life threatening injuries right now, erin. >> tim, how significant is it? i mean, you have the shooter in custody. just when we -- it feels to so many of us that this is i can't believe this is happening again, way too much in this country, but in every case, the shooter is killed by authorities or kills himself. in this case, the fact that the shooter is alive, how significant is that going to be just in terms of law enforcement overall trying to understand what motivates people to do these horrible things and stop it? >> there's a lot to learn from this particular individual about why he did this. in the case of james holmes in colorado in aurora, he was alive and did it for the 15 minutes of fame and as lou mentioned earlier and sometimes that's the objective. i want to be columbine, they wanted to be the greatest killers ever. i believe it was holmes to supercede that and a greatest

record of anyone in a mass shooting and some individuals the mental illness leads them to the notoriety. this individual, the fact that he didn't shoot himself, a, may have been he was planning to do it and wasn't completed with the task he had at hand. maybe he had a secondary attack or a secondary assault to conduct and or law enforcement came in and gave up which as you said it is very, very rare. suicide by cop is very common in a situation like this. and the most common thing is suicide itself where they literally shoot themselves at the end of the act. >> lou, i mean, obviously, being killed by authorities happens so often because they're, you know, want to do anything they can to prevent these individuals from killing anybody else so the fact that they didn't have to shoot him, what might that say about whether he had already stopped or does that in and of itself tell you something? >> well, i can say this. that if the law enforcement officials or the campus police were able to apprehend this individual without shooting him, that speaks volumes of them

because there's always a value in taking these people alive and as this gentleman just pointed out, we need to study these individuals. you need to continue to learn but, you know, i hate to be redundant about this but there's a massive failure with the mental health system. families with children like these, we don't know that much about this individual just yet. as you know, law enforcement right now is employing many of the same tactics of prior shooter in santa barbara, visiting families, seeing -- visiting the residence. computers, any types of communications. trying to create a profile or an understanding of exactly what was making him tick as best as they could. but there's always a value in law enforcement apprehending someone like this as opposed to terminating him for the purposes that we're discussing and that's to learn. it's got to be about obtaining information. >> we'll interject a quick break. we continue to cover the breaking news story out of seattle. we'll be right back.

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conference at any moment as we try to understand what happened here. the shooter in custody alive. a huge and crucial development in this story. anderson cooper will continue to follow the story bringing you news conference here live when it begins. "anderson cooper 360" takes it over from here. good evening. we continue tonight with the breaking news. gunshots, casualties on campus. live pictures of what began at about 3:30 p.m. this afternoon local time at seattle pacific university. a small liberal arts school with about 3,300 students. live pictures of the scene. obviously, the entire area cordoned off. a lot of law enforcement, fire personnel, medics on the scene. at least four wounded we're told. conditions from minor to life threatening. the suspected shooter in custody. it happened on the campus building of out that miller hall and expecting to hear from local authorities with did details. randi kaye joins us now. what do w