being on. let's reset at the top of the hour now. i'm anderson cooper. thank you for joining us. we're following two major breaking stories that the hour. the downing of malaysian airlines flight 17 that killed 298 people in ukraine. >> and i'm wolf blitzer reporting from jerusalem. the other major story, the breaking story we were following, the crisis in gaza, where israel launched a major ground offensive and it continues. >> a lot to get you up to date on in this hour. president obama today laying out the priorities and the aftermath of the airline crash in the ukraine. the priorities, learning the truth first, he say then acting. >> there has to be a credible international investigation into what happened. the u.n. security council has endorsed this investigation and we will hold all its members, including russia, to their word. in order to facilitate that investigation. russia, pro-russian separatists

and ukraine must adhere to an immediate cease-fire. evidence must not be tampered with. investigators need access to the crash site. and the solemn task of returning those lost on board the plane to their loved ones needs to go forward immediately. >> here's what we know. when malaysian airlines flight 17 went down yesterday, most of the people on board, 189, were from the netherlands. president obama today identified by name one american who was also killed. the airline announcing today that they will make an initial cash payment of $5,000 to the family of each passenger. it sounds like very little amount of money. meant to cover travel expenses, immediate expenses, to the crash side. an audio recording ukrainian officials say they intercepted. and one of the voice on the tape describing debris falling from the sky and saying, quote, he's 100% sure the plane is a

civilian aircraft. the question of course, did anyone know it was a civilian aircraft before they shot it down. whichever side of the you'd cra ukraine conflict is found spons ashlgs these deaths were not involved in that conflict. an asian airliner filled with people from all over the world. and everyone agrees there will be some sort of backlash, certainly some impact. jim sciutto is our chief national security. the question now is where will that backlash come, who will feel it, what form will it take. >> most likely russia. the president clearly treading very carefully here in his comments about the white house. saying we have to be certain first of exactly what happened. so they're taking their time. but, more and more, the evidence coming from the u.s. side and the ukrainian side points to some russian involvement. the president said so in so many words. he said that this, in his words, is not an accident. a plane cannot be shot down without sophisticated equipment. and he says that sophisticated

equipment, including anti-aircraft missiles, are coming from russia. we're just learning now that the working theory of u.s. intelligence now is that this missile system, which both u.s. and ukrainian officials believe was responsible for taking down this passenger yet, this buk system we've talked a lot about, anderson, that it was supplied to the rebels by russia. that would be a shocking revelation if confirmed. because it means russia would not just be indirectly responsible for this, but directly responsible. and that means greater consequences. the trouble is, how severe are those consequences. just a day before this crash, president -- >> jim, i just got to interrupt you. there's a pentagon briefing. we'll go to that live. >> and that support has included arms, material and training. as we investigate who did this and why, this terrible tragedy underscores the need for russia

to take immediate and concrete steps to deitescalate the crisi in ukraine. and i have one update on cape bray. the crew aboard cape bray continue their work to neutralize materials from the stockpile. as of this morning, the crew has neutralized just over 15% of the df, which is a sarin precursor. this amount has been verified by the international organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons. >> he's no longer talking about the aircraft itself. actually, let's listen as he is taking questions. let's just see -- yeah, let's listen in. >> -- of russian heavy weapons across the border into ukraine and the president spoke about training, all of that. can you go through this and tell us the latest u.s. assessment, u.s. military assessment, of

what the russians have been doing in transferring heavy weapons, surface to air missiles, artillery, other heavy weapons across the border, to separatists on the ukraine side and the training and assistance that you believe russian elements, the russian military, is giving to these separatists. >> no hint that russian support for the separatists have ceased. in fact, we continue to believe that russia continues to provide them with heavy weapon, military equipment, financing as well. they continue to allow these russian fighters to enter the ukraine freely. there have been, as you know, we've acknowledged that some tanks, armored personnel vehicles, have made their way across the border. it is a -- it has been a steady concerted campaign by russia's military to continue to support and resource, advise, these separatists. >> have you seen -- there is some video out there, i don't

know that you've seen the particular video, have you seen evidence that an sa-11 or buk missile system would cross the border at some point from russia into ukraine, and what can you tell us about that system and the sophistication and training that would be needed by russian separatists to actually be able to operate it effectively? >> i don't have specific information about a buk system making that transit. we're not ruling anything in or out at this point. it is -- it is a sophisticated -- that said, it is a sophisticated system. the missile itself, the saa 11, which is the one we believe was used to down flight 17, is a sophisticated piece of technology. and it -- it strained credulity to think it could be used by separatists without at least some measure of russian support

and technical assistance. >> they didn't just do it on their own? >> it strain e eed crew duality think it could be used without assistance. >> you have evidence of that? >> we want investigators to do their work. i don't have an indication now that a system was brought over and we don't exactly know who is responsible for firing that missile or with -- or with what assistance. what i'm saying is that system is fairly sophisticated. >> so what is the level of their training and assistance? does it include russian forces going across the border into ukraine to work as advisers or trainers side by side with the separatists? >> there's been russian -- there's been incursions across the border by russian aircraft so, i mean, i think we have -- we don't have any reason to

suspect that they haven't provided some measure of support on the other side of that border. i mean, these paramilitary forces that we don't talk about as much anymore certainly didn't act or behave or -- like some ragtag militia. so nobody's suggesting that russian military advice and assistance hasn't somehow crossed that border. it's just unclear exactly how much and when and who. again, that's what the investigators are going to look at. we got to let them do it. >> are we to believe it was just a coincidence that the president announced sanctions directly on the maker of this buks system just the day before? >> i won't get into the thought process behind the president's specific decisions. clearly, these are another round of targeted sanctions.

designed to change the calculation and president's putin's behavior and decision making. what you're -- seep m to think what you're suggesting -- [ inaudible ] i have no information that's the case. >> second question, what's the working theory about the intent? was this an intended military target gone awry? or was this simply an act of terrorism perhaps? >> we don't know. again, that's what we've got to let investigators figure out. we don't know what the motive was here. >> what is your theory? what is your working theory? >> i don't think we have a working theory at this point. this just happened yesterday. there's teams of investigators now trying to get to the site and pore through this. we just have to let them do their job. >> admiral, people in this department have said before that there were about 10,000 to 12,000 regular russian troops inside the russian side of the

border, which is a build-up from a couple of weeks ago. is that still your estimate? have those forces changed since this attack yesterday? can you tell us about, you know, as much as you can what they're doing or what their posture is in terms of a potential incursion? >> yes, that's a great question. i don't know of any major change to that presence. it's roughly, still, about 10,000 to 12,000. and it fleck wait fluctuates ae bit from week to week. the point is, it has been, over time, a steady increase of these combined arms tactical battalions across the border on the russian side but to the southeast of ukraine. and they are close to the border. in many cases, closer than those forces who were more aligned along the east. if you remember, we had tens of thousands that were along the eastern border with ukraine, but not as close as these units

appear to be. all they're doing is further escalating tension. it's difficult to know what their intent is. that's a question you should ask the russian military defense. they're there. they're going by size week by week. they do nothing more than escalate tension. >> is that process separate from these regular -- >> i haven't seen any indication they're actively involved in the provision of support to the separatists. i haven't seencontinuing to mas along that side of the border. justin. >> two questions. do that -- massing of forces, does that include air, defense, artillery systems like the sa 11 that was used in malaysian -- have you seen air defense equipment on the russian side of the border in that build-up? >> i don't have an inventory of what they've got with them, justin. we assess these are combined arms units. in other words, it's not just

infantry troops, but they have artillery capability, they've got armor capability. they're combined arms. and they're very ready. this is a very capable force. though smaller in number than what was aligned along the border before. i don't have a complete inventory of what they've got. >> an estimate of about 12,000 russian troops on the border in the russian side. obviously, the u.s. has been tracking the work of russian special operations forces, russian advisers, russian intelligence services, in ukraine. is there an estimate of the size of that advisory presence inside the eastern ukraine by russian forces? is it a handful? is it 1,000 guys? >> i don't have the number for you on that. that's less important than the fact that they continue to do it. and we continue to see this

support and resourcing and advice given to these separatist groups. we have every indication that support is russian, coming from the russians. >> -- in ukraine -- >> we believe there are -- there is russian support for the separatists inside ukraine, yes. >> admiral, when the general was here a couple weeks ago, he said specifically that the ukrainian separatists were receiving training on russian territory on using what he called vehicle born anti-aircraft systems. how much training, can you elaborate, has that intensified in recent weeks, and was he referring to an as-11-type system? >> i don't know what assessment he was referring to but we agree some separatists have received training in these vehicle born systems. there's no question about that.

i don't have -- i mean, i don't have an estimate of how many and who's doing it. >> that would have to raise particular alarms, wouldn't it? it's one thing, small arms. but vehicle born anti-aircraft systems, that's pretty serious. >> it is pretty serious. we've been taking it serious. we've been monitoring the situation there as closely as we can. and we've been -- nobody in the pentagon has been shy about talking about the continued threat posed by these separatist elements in ukraine or by those combined arms forces continuing to amass along the border. phil. >> has the pentagon or u.s. government increased its surveillance of the area along the border in the wake of this disast disaster? >> i would just say that we're monitoring events as closely as we can. and i really don't have any more to add than that. >> you don't want to say whether it's increased or not? >> we're monitoring events as closely as we can. >> i'll go back to the general's

comments. were there any warnings given to the commercial airline companies or any civilian airline authorities about the existence or this level of training for those taking place -- >> there was a notice to airmen put out. i think you know that. that warns civilian aircraft to fly, to take care over the skies of ukraine and to fly at higher altitudes. not an expert on that entire process but there was an international notice to civilian air carriers about that. >> was that prompted by what the general said, the training of vehicle born -- >> you'd have to talk to the faa and other agencies that handle that. i don't know what prompted it. i think it was obviously if you're going to issue a warning like that, it's based on concerns that you have about surface to air missile activity and capabilities. yeah. >> you said that you don't know what the intent was of whoever

fired the missile. were there any indications there were other airlines, perhaps ukrainian military planes, in the sky at that time? also, is there any concern -- the president keeps saying put be wants to stop this, he can. are there any concerns perhaps this is a situation that is poised to spiral out control and perhaps russian doesn't have the control of the separatists and, if so, how are you preparing? >> on your first question, i don't know. this is ukrainian airspace. i remembfer to them to speak ab that. we wouldn't have that here. on your second question, i think the president's been very clear about what the responsibilities and obligation of president putin and moscow are right now. which is to deit's calculate the tension. respect the territorial integrity of ukraine. and cease support for the separatist activities. which i said at the outset, in

some cases, is intensifying. >> even after yesterday's incidents? >> i don't know of any big delta between their support from yesterday to today. we haven't seen any sign that it's not -- that it's stopping. yes. >> admiral, there had been -- previous to yesterday's tragedy, there had been two or three, at least, ukrainian transport planes shot down. does your intelligence and your knowledge indicate the system that shot down the plane yesterday was a more powerful, more sophisticated system requiring more training, or was it similar to the system that was used to shoot down the ukrainian transport planes? >> it's -- again, we're investigating this right now. it's unclear exactly what brought down the other aircraft you're talking about. i mean, we know they were shot down, but those -- those incidents are still being looked

into. i don't have any great visibility on what brought them down. but i'd like to just kind of bring you back to the larger point here. that these aircraft are being shot down. and while it's unclear exactly who's pulling the trigger here, it's pretty clear it's doing nothing to deitescalate the tension inside ukraine and to bring to this crisis a peaceful resolution. now innocent people simply flying from one city to another have been killed. and brought into this. so let's not lose sight of the big picture here. it matters a lot less, you know, exactly what system it was and a lot more that it happened and it needs to stop. >> just a quick follow, do you believe whoever shot this plane down could have mistaken for a ukrainian military transport? >> ei'm not going to get into te motivations, the intent, the

reasoning that went into this. that's for the investigators to figure out. we simply don't have that level of detail at this point. ma'am. >> -- normally friend or foe measures on systems like this? if it was an accident, would that reveal a dangerous lack of training on the part of whoever was using it? >> i don't know yet. i'm not an expert on that system. i wouldn't begin to get up here and try to dissect it for you. investigators are going to pile through this. >> exactly who are these investigators? >> it will be -- it's an international investigation. >> does it include dod, does it include cia -- >> there's no plans right now for a dod representative on this. i won't speak for other agencies. i believe there will be some other entities from the federal government, individuals going over there to participate in it. i don't have the makeup of the team. it will be an international investigation. >> do you anticipate -- >> i have no expectation right

now there will be a dod rep on this team. >> the president said he saw no role for the u.s. military in responding to this. but what ever happened to that list of requests for equipment that the ukrainians sent at the beginning of this? >> yeah, we continue to review requests for, or ukrainian requests for military assistance. some $33 million that the president has authorized of material has been getting to ukrainian, ukrainian armed forces and border services. the support continues to flow. we continue to take a look at their needs and addressing each in turn. >> last i remember, it was mres.

is there any -- do you have a more complete list? >> yes, there's been more. the recent deliveries include radios, body armor, individual first aid kits, sleeping mats, uniform items. over the next few months, additional items will move through to include night vision goggles, thermal imageers, kevlar, some additional radios. there's been some other equipment given to ukraine's border guards. barbed wire, alarms systems. excavato excavators. trucks, generators. xun cations.

communications. gear. part of a package of more than $33 million now that the president has approved and that stuff continues to flow. >> listening to a spokesman at the pentagon. want to bring in our jim sciutto. want to bring in our chief national security correspondent jim sciutto. one of the things the spokesman from the pentagon said earlier, said it strained credulity they could do this without russian assistance, it was a fairly sophisticated device used. although they certainly don't foe who pushed the trigger. >> that was exactly the line i was thinking, anderson, the most significant from that press conference. follows on with what the president was saying earlier, this is not an accident, in the president's words, that they can't shoot -- the separatists couldn't shoot down the plane without sophisticated assistance. that assistance coming from

russia. then on the floor of the security council, saying the systems are complicated, it's likely the separatists would have needed russian help, russian training. and now in addition to that, anderson, you have the u.s. intelligence community saying it's their working theory at this point that that missile system itself, the actual launcher, came across the border from russia. we have some audio we've obtained, again, from ukrainian officials, seeming to show that that launcher came across the border. so that gives direct, as popposo just indirect, goes to the question you asked earlier, who bears the consequence to this. the president, goingrd too, you have to envision him marshalling support for stiffer sanctions against russia. >> yesterday, there had been some thought perhaps there was a system captured by pro-russian rebels from the ukrainian military. but as you just said, a senior

defense official is at thing cnn their work theory abeimong the military is russian military supplied this buk missile system. >> it's a if question. this is what i was told. their working theory is this missile system came from a ukrainian base in crimea and that it was transferred from crimea to eastern ukraine, but via russian territory. if you look at a map, it would have to go from ukraine, through, you know, one route would be to take it through russia. that was their working theory. one of the comeing, many questions that hasn't been established yet. based on the statement from the pentagon, the president, our u.n. ambassador, that they would at least need training to operate this thing as well and that adds more responsibility. >> we're going to talk, when we come back, to a reporter on scene at the crash site for the latest on exactly what's happening there. we'll be right back. great. but parallel parking isn't one of them.

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but with pamprin, a period means sgo!! pain relievers only relieve pain. multi-symptom pamprin relieves all your symptoms. so there's no stopping you. period. if you watched our coverage yesterday, you know we spoke to one of the first journalists certainly at the crash site. he's joining me on the phone. he's spoken today to separatist fighters in the legion. you expert the night at the crash site. what was the scene when the night finally broke? >> the scene was strange and surreal. it was quite empty. there was a group of emergency services workers who had also spent the night. pitched a tent camp. they began working. they sort of lined up and took a

slightly more organized approach to mark iing the landing sites the bodies. actually had some maps out and split up the territory. at the same time, it wasn't a sophisticated approach. they were still tying white cotton to stakes and basically walking through the fields and marking these spots. and the local population started emerging from their homes. people in the village down below sort of walking their cows trying to make sense of what had happened. many of them still in deep shock. >> there had been some reports of possible looting or removal of items or removal even of debris. did you see any of that? >> i myself didn't. i spoke to a colleague who had been sort of at the outskirts of the perimeter and saw a few guys

going through suitcase that had fall en from the sky and talkin about whether to take a guide book. to say there's been extensive looting, at least during the morning period while i was there, is pretty difficult. you know, the perimeter there is being controlled. there's one rebel commander there who told me essentially by three groups. one is a set of fighters from nearby. the cosacks appear to be the wild card as always in this situation. so it's a little more difficult to say what's happening on their side of things. >> did -- yesterday you had talked that in some cases they were moving bodies, sort of trying to get all the victims together. does that continue today? did you see that? >> no, they haven't actually

been touching the bodies at all from what i've seen. they -- as far as we know -- have been asked through back channels. the prime minister of the donetsk people republic has been asked not to touch the bodies by malaysian and dutch authorities, suggesting people are still hoping there will be a chance for folks, international observers and investigators to enter the area. the concern of course is you have hundreds of bodies decaying in a field before anyone has a chance to get to them. it's summer here. it was raining actually earlier in the day. to put it simply, it's not ideal conditions. >> did it seem to you that most -- i mean, obviously, investigators are going to be looking at what kind of wreckage -- pieces of the

wreckage and also even people themselves. are most of the people -- i'm not sure how to ask this, are most of the people intact? >> i think it's about 50/50. i did a walk-through this morning and sort of in the daylight and counted roughly 50, 50 bodies, and i'd say at least half of them are so mangled you simply couldn't identify them. some just kind of twisted corpses that look almost picasso-esque. but at the same time there are others that -- if handled properly, could be clearly identified. >> are there still -- we've seen images of large pieces of wreckage. are most of the pieces very

identifiable? most of the pieces of the debris? are there large chunks of the aircraft still intact? >> it seeps the debris split into sort of two clusters as it fell from the sky. the tail fin sort of further up the road. and some other debris scattered in that vicinity. and then the main crash site, which is closer to the village at the lower end of the field seems to be where the fuselage, the engines, landed. a lot of that has been burnt out. the flight hadn't taken off too long before it went down, so there was a lot of fuel still in the tank. you can really see that when you walk through the crash site. some of the alloy from the plane has sort of melted,

resolidified. silver on the ground. >> in terms of -- do you have any information about black boxes or flight data recorders? there have been conflicting reports -- >>cy don't have anything that i could confirm. i've heard the same conflicting reports that everyone has all day. and folks are continuing from both sides. to report at one moment that they have them and the next moment that they don't have them. so i think it's, again, a moment where it's worth waiting, not rushing to conclusions. and letting the situation play out a little bit in order to find out what's actually going on. >> ukrainian officials said they have been trying to get access to the site. in some cases, there work has been hampered. do you see any evidence

officials from ukraine or accident investigators either doing work or trying to get access to a site? >> in the morning, there was nobody from ukraine or international groups there. i heard a group of observers visited the site. apparently there was an incident where some of the cosack guards either didn't understand exactly who the osce was or didn't appreciate their presence and caused some problems in terms of entry to the site. though rebel leaders have assured me that they will continue to and intend to allow international observers and journalists to work, they said their command is not to let locals on to the site. but beyond that, they don't plan to inpose any restrictions. >> i know you have also been talking to a number of pro-russian rebel leaders and

spokespeople. what are they telling you, in terms of claims of responsibility, in terms of what they want to see happen? >> you know, it's an interesting question. it points to a larger problem. in terms of the long-term standing of eastern ukraine. most of the rebels here, i would say frankly across the board, deny responsibility for this. they claim it's a provocation conjured up by the ukrainian authorities in kiev. many of them claim they don't have is the equipment or that they don't have enough of the components of this missile system buk to actually hit this plane. when it comes to the fighters themselves, i think it's a moment where perception proves to be more powerful than reality. for these folks, even if evidence is presented by the western -- by western

governments or by kiev, it's politicized in the eyes of the rebel fighters. these are men who have been fighting now for three months, if not a little bit more, and they've given up their regular lives. there doesn't seem to be anyone saying that they're ready to rethink their position or to rethink their cause as a result of the malaysian airlines disaster. >> so the video posted by ukraine's interior ministry on its facebook page showing a buk system, according to the ukraine officials, heading towards russia, with one missile missing, things like that, that's all discounted by anybody in the rebels who you talked to? >> absolutely. to put it mildly, they don't trust a word that kiev says. i think anything that's released by the current authorities in

kiev is seen in rebel eyes as fabricated, as intended to -- essentially to draw nato into ukraine. that's the understanding. the rebels think ukrainians want to establish more precedent to involve nato forces in ukraine in order to escalate western involvement and western attachment to the new government in kiev. >> is there anything else you want people to know about the crash site, about what is happening there right now? >> you know, i think one, for me, the important thing to note is there's still a lot of work to be done in order to secure the bodies. there's a lot of people talking about -- talking about the parts of the plane. talking about establishing evidence chains in order to have a proper investigation.

and all of that is -- it's certainly important, but i think, especially for the -- for anyone who's walked through that scene, the bodies, the effects of the people on board, would receive as much attention as the more politicized debris -- >> are there capabilities there to properly handle the victims of this crash? are there morgue facilities? are there refrigeration, you know, mobile refrigeration trucks? can -- at this point, do they need all that to help? >> i think they do need all of that. i don't think they have it. the rebel quote/unquote minister alexander boridi mentioned today

they don't have the proper equipment to store and secure and maintain the bodies so that's perhaps an area where the international community, observers could play a role, seems to be a point on which the separatist leadership is ready to cooperate. >> how easy is it to get to this site? i mean, is it -- because it's, you know, as we've seen in past instan instances, it's very possible you may have family members wanting to come to the crash site as soon as possible. is -- how remote is it? how possible is it to actually get there? >> it's about 90 minutes from the regional capital donetsk where i'm actually right now. it's off in a classic ukrainian countryside village, down sort of pothole-riddled roads, but

the main issue i think for anyone traveling in this region right now is effectively the roads are controlled by the separatist groups. you have to pass through a series of checkpoints in order to move along the roads. i don't imagine they would be particular particularly happy or particularly kind to visiting foreigners. all journalists here have to receive accreditation through the separatist authorities. without that press card, you end up -- you end up held, held back from moving, moving around. it's not a -- at the same tie, there's still -- there's still fighting going on. there's still skirmishes. the city near to the crash site. so it's not an especially safe place to be traveling, although,

again, i imagine on the issue of the bodies themselves and the folks impacted by the crash, the rebels seem a bit more willing to meet in the middle. >> noah schneider, i know, it's been an exhausting night for you. thank you. we'll continue to check in with noah in the coming days. up next, i'll talk to my panel about preserving what is a crime scene, multiple crime scenes, over a wide area, and the investigation of the crash. at every ford dealership, you'll find the works! it's a complete checkup of the services your vehicle needs. so prepare your car for any road trip by taking it to an expert ford technician. because no matter your destination good maintenance helps you save at the pump. get our multi-point inspection with a synthetic blend oil change, tire rotation, brake inspection and more for $29.95 or less.

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joining know new is the former inspector general of the nstb. our military analyst. and in washington, peter golz, a specialist in aviation and international crisis management. also joining us is david soucie, cnn aviation analyst. appreciate all of you being with us. david, we were just hearing from noah schneider about the crash scene. from what he said, in terms of trying to, trying to investigate this, what challenges lay ahead? this really isn't just one crime scene, this is multiple crime scenes spread out over a great distance. >> yes, it is. documenting it is a challenge just when it's a singular accident but now you've got several different things that have to be treated as accident sites. if bodies are falling separately, those have to be documented as well, what tract tra jektry the object that hit

the ground went what will give clues what type of explosion it was, what type of speed. there's a lot of conclusions to be had. if those are moved, it can lead you down the wrong path. >> even the conditions of the victims are important in all of this to determine what happened. >> that's absolutely right and of course the method of bringing down the plane, the residue. at this point, the air crash investigators can tell you it was a -- you know, a missile brought down a plane and how the plane came down. but at this point, i would be inclined to say this is not an article 13 iko accident investigation and treat it as an international crime scene -- >> explain the difference, how do you mean? >> at that point, like we did in 9/11, the united states, after the four planes on 9/11, the ntsb was not in charge, the fbi was in charge, because it was an international criminal investigation. you have many more powers. you have the power literally to seize evidence. you can go in and get what you want and what you need. they need that right now.

just looking at the crime scene and the report, great report, but it's out of control. >> rick, how do you see it? >> well, you know, they need to get the evidence and as david said i think it's important we find out how that weapon impacted that aircraft, to find out what it did and -- that might give us a better clue as to the condition of the weapon. we're hearing different reports about where that came from. was it a front-line russian piece of equipment? was it something taken from a ukrainian base? was it modified? this would be important. >> peter golz, just as, you know, as noah was talking about, the priority is obviously dealing with the victims of this crash, dealing with them in a sensitive way, dealing with them in a humane way, in a dignified way. and right now they don't have the capabilities on the ground really to do that. >> no, they don't. what has to happen is there has to be international action to

form a recovery team that goes in immediately. that is promised protection by both the ukrainians, the separatists and the russians. and if that kind of protection's not promised and not delivered, then there's got to be sanctions immediately placed. i mean, the evidence going to be there. after twa flight 800, we tested the explosive residue and the explosive evidence of a missile detonating near aircraft skin. the investigation will know what the marker is on that case, in this accident. they will see the evidence. but the most important thing is to get a team in immediately to begin recovering the victims and treating them with some dignity and that really is in the hands of the russians, the ukrainians and the and in terms of the black boxes, the flight data

recorders, they are important, but even -- david soucie, even if they have been removed and again, we have not been able to confirm it, and noah has not been able to confirm the status of them, there is still the wreckage themselves, from the victims themselves. >> there is more to be learned than what the boxes would tell us. and at the very most with the black boxs, whether there was a warning or not, whether they had been tried to be contacted, taken evasive action to say we're off track, there is someone who doesn't want us to here, do they start to turn the other way. that would be the black box information. but as far as we have talked about earlier with the impact of what type of effect the ballistic missile that hit the aircraft or exploded outside the aircraft, that is important information to know so you can decide whether it came from. >> and have you ever seen a

crash/crime scene like this? >> yes, i have. >> in terms of the different actors in play. >> yes, pan am 103, september 11, klo-7, and with the residue on the bodies and the plane, but now you're in an international criminal man hunt. >> and in the midst of conflict. >> in the midst of conflict and how they're going to secure even -- and the workers to come in and retrieve the bodies, they need to have security. they don't want to be harmed in that process. >> mary schiavo, david soucie, rick francona, we appreciate you being with us. president obama saying there were hiv aids advocates on board, committed to finding a cure. sanjay gupta looks at the global impact of their loss now. >> reporter: the health community around the world in utter shock. the international aids society says a number of its members

were on board malaysia airlines flight 17. they were heading to the aids 2014 conference in melbourne, australia, scheduled to start this sunday. typically attended by thousands from all over the world. and among them, leading hiv experts. their loss, likely to have an impact on research regarding diagnosing, treating and curing the disease. president bill clinton is one of the keynote speakers at the conference. he says it's awful, sickening, what has happened to so many people. >> they were doing so much good. we do this on a regular basis, have these international aids conferences. and i try to go to all of them, because i'm always so inspired by what other people are doing and what we can learn from them. and so since i left office, it's been a -- kind of a regular part of my life, thinking about those people being knocked out of the sky. it's pretty tough. >> reporter: one of the victims,

prominent dutch scientist, lang. i first met him in 2004 when he presided in bangkok. those who knew him say he was a hard core scientist with the heart of an activist, who worked tirelessly to get affordable aids drugs for hiv positive patients living in poor countries. one small example of his work. he was the one that argued if coca-cola could get refrigerated beverages to places all over africa, then we should be able to do the same with refrigerated hiv medications. >> it's going to be a huge impact, both on people who worked closely with him, people in his lab, and on the society as a whole. it's an incredible loss. we are all just bracing ourselves to arrive and find out who else may have been on that flight. it's just unbelievable. it's really real yet. >> reporter: the world health organization tells us glen thomas was on board that flight. he worked with us here at cnn

during our coverage of the ebowla outbreak. he was planning his 50th birthday celebration. his life and so many others cut tragically short. >> and dr. sanjay gupta joins me live from the cnn center in atlanta. what more can you tell us about the victims and the work that they were doing? >> this international aids conference has been around for some time. nearly 30 years now. and this is the one sort of conference where researchers from all over the world were working sometimes in large labs and small labs, funded in different ways, came together to try and share the research, to really accelerate what was happening in the world of hiv/aids. jep lang, one of the first people to look at maternal to child transmission of hiv, do some of the early research in that area. and trying to figure out how to prevent it. we've covered these types of stories. it's impossible to try -- you

could not overestimate the impact of the sort of work that many of these people did who were lost on that flight. i think more people will come in to fill those ranks, but it's going to really cast a pallor over the society's meeting. >> this is a brain trust of people who have dedicated their lives to it and spent years on it. and knowledge like that. obviously beyond the human tragedy for their families, for their friends, for all who knew them. for this has an impact on globally on efforts fighting hiv/aids. >> we're talking about the last 30 years, when we have really started to research and focus on hiv/aids since the early '80s. and there are people who have spent their entire lives, interprofessional lives doing nothing but this. as you say, they're wealth of experience, knowledge, brain trust, that's -- that was their whole life. and so those people, again -- it's not to say there aren't other people who can fill those ranks, but some real leaders. jep lang, i interviewed him in

2004 in bangkok, talked to him about some of the work they were doing at that time. and he was the president of the whole organization. so gives an idea of the stature of this man, as well. >> a huge loss. globally. dr. sanjay gupta, appreciate it. thanks very much. our extensive coverage of the malaysian flight 17 and conflict in the middle east continues with brooke baldwin after a quick break. and i'll be on tonight. the cadillac summer collection is here. ♪

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you are watching cnn, i'm brooke baldwin. i want to welcome viewers from the united states and around the world. this is the unthinkable story of this passenger plane shot out of the sky at 32,000 feet up in the air. apparently by the surface-to-air missile. the president of the united states speaking just a short time ago, saying at least one american was killed. quinn lucas schwan'sman, a dutch-american national. >> this was a global tragedy. an asian airliner was destroyed in european skies filled with citizens from many countries. so there has to be a credible international investigation into what happened. the u.n. security council has endorsed this investigation and we will hold all its members, including russia, to their word. >> president obama today very, very careful with his words. still no one