all the pictures, all the stories, now gone. jason carroll, cnn, new york. thank you so much for joining us. our news coverage of flight 17 continues now with anderson continues now with anderson cooper, 360. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com good everythining. thanks for joining us. a reality in darkness breaks your heart of the notion how this came to be, turns your stomach. a large piece of the 777 flight 17 inside the wreckage that remains no life. human remains are everywhere. white ribbons mark the place they came to rest after a missile blew the plane from the sky. they lie in a war zone and because of that, because of that fact, more than a day after the fact, they lie there still, another horrifying reality. so is the reality that a weapon of war brought down a civilian jet and due to that, america's

tense relationship with the cold war adversary is getting tense still. the chill is growing and rhetoric is heating up as new facts emerge in the investigation. we'll cover all the angels tonight. we go live to phil black in a moment, the only correspondent to get access to the crash site and we will as always, take time and great care to try to remember the lives, to honor the lives of the men, the women and the children on board flight 17. images from inside malaysia airlines flight 17 before take off yesterday as the 298 passengers and crew prepare for the journey. a surface to air missile downed the commercial jet, who is responsible for the act is still unknown. but take a look at this video released by the ukrainian government. it shows a system, the same kind believed to shut down the plane driving through prorussian

territory. look closely, notice one missal missing. the video saying to be taken off the plane was shot down. a senior defense official says the theory is russia provided proseparatists with the anti-aircraft missile system that took down the jet. president obama declined to place blame on one party but had strong words. >> the violence taking place there is facilitated in part in large part because of russian support. and they have the ability to move those separatists in a different direction. if mr. putin makes a decision that we are not going to allow heavy armorments and the flow of fighters into ukraine across the ukrainian russian boarder, then it will stop. >> the ukrainian government continues to blame russia and separatists for the incident calling it an act of terrorism in releasing audio recordings

intercepted they say from rebels talking about taking down an aircraft just after the plane crashed. [speaking foreign language]. >> at the crash site, pieces of white cloth dot the land where the victims fell. witnesses describe the terrible moment when the plane and everything in it fell to earth. it was a very strong plane rumble and a sort of explosion or flab and then people started falling from the sky this man says. people were appearing right from the clouds, then the plane's fuse lodge landed here. complicating the situation where the crash occurred, the territory in eastern ukraine making it difficult to access the site and preserve evidence. reporters observed looting by locals and 30 monitors from the organization for security and

corporation in europe were only allowed to view 200 yards of a debris field estimated to be six square miles. >> it looks like the biggest crime scene in the world right now guarded by a guys in uniform with heavy firepower who are inhospitable. >> more troubling, the whereabouts about the flight recorders or black boxes are unknown following rumors they have been taken to russia. they told cnn they are in ukraine but didn't say where. one of many claims and counter claims complicating a crime and tragedy that's growing larger by the day. well again, the crash site in eastern ukraine remains a very dangerous place. phil black is the only reporter on scene and joins us now live. phil, you arrived at the crash site earlier today. what have you been seeing? describe it, if you can. >> reporter: anderson, it's difficult. first of all, clearly, what

stands out, what you see behind me, these big pieces of wreckage that really represent the catastrophe that took place over the skies more than 24 hours ago. the sheer force responsible for tearing apart the aircraft but then you look closer into the fields, the very wide open fields in this area or among the tall grass and see evidence of the human costs. there are still so many bodies lying here, lying in the grass and they do not look like they are about to be moved in the near future. there is something of an operation to at least identify the locations of some of them. they are marked with small white flags or white clothes but speaking to the emergency workers here, they say it's not going to happen quickly and indeed, they think someone else has to come in to do it. they don't see it as their job specifically there is clearly a big question mark over if and when, first of all, any sort of substantial investigation can get underway here and of course, when these bodies can be treated

with the appropriate dignity, anderson. >> and who is in charge of this area and how difficult is it to get to this area? >> this area is firmly under the control of those prorussian rebels, no doubt about it. there are ukrainian government emergency workers here but those are local people. they are paid by the government in kiev but very much locals and working very closely under the supervision of those rebels. everything they do, the rebels are watching or not too far away, carrying their assault rifles, really determining what is allowed to happen here and what is not. when we first arrived here tonight, the first question we were asked by those emergency workers is do we have the rebels' permission to be here. to be fair, if the rebels did not allow us to be here, it would be difficult to get this far. i was already difficult as it was, numerous check points, a very strong powerful armored presence. we saw lots of armored vehicles,

lots of men with guns questioning us. it took many hours, but we were able to make it. what i'm saying very clearly, it is those rebels who are calling shots and determining what is taking place here, even if it is only limited action so far, anderson. >> phil, do you know what piece of the aircraft that is you're in front of? can you tell? >> it is difficult to tell with great accuracy but it is clearly part of the fuse lodge. it appears to be a fairly narrow section and indeed a tapering section. so logically, i think that would suggest some section towards the tail of the aircraft, but it is substantial and next to it there is another big piece, as well. the interesting thing to note is that if you -- we'll just show it to you more closely. we'll zoom in so you can see it, zoom in carefully i have to say because there is so much here we can't show you. we can't point the camera in various directions because of what we are surrounded by. but the interesting thing to

note here you have this big piece of wreckage but if you turn around 360 degrees, as far as you can see here, this is the only substantial piece. all the other big pieces of the wreckage are a vast distance from here or a couple miles down the road and so forth. again, really showing that fact that it clearly broke up in the sky and so the debris field is really over a very, very wide area, anderson. >> phil, obviously, we're showing an abundance of caution, we don't want any family members to see their loved one in these conditions on television. that's certainly not something anybody would want. phil, stay there for us. it bares repeating, every disaster like this has its own set of associated challenge. unlike 370 we have wreckage but only restricted access but no clear line yet, at least not

publicly of the precise accountabili accountability. many different challenges, no less difficult and plenty to talk about. phil black staying there with us and also along with aviation correspondent richard quest, david, and phillip mud. richard, let's start with you, securing the scene, these black boxes, again, we don't know the status of these black boxes. there is still, though, a lot that can be learned without them. >> the wreckage itself will give up secrets of what happened in my ways. with the proper experts going in there, it would not be that difficult relatively quickly. what is worrying me tonight, looking at the pictures, hearing phil black's report, seeing the situation is how you scale this up so that it becomes not even a half descent recovery rescue operation with dignity. we are so far away from that which needs to be in place, now

where are they going to come from? the russian side? unlikely. ukraine hasn't got access, the rebels not today. the osce, they can't get enough people in necessary to this. my major concern tonight is how you scale up this operation to make it descent, dig fied and do it quickly. >> hurricane katrina, day four, day five, there were still fellow citizens in the streets not collected. there weren't refrigeration facilities to care for people. this is a far more complex in many ways. >> hazmat suits, refrigeration, markings, god for bid but the bags necessary for human remains. these things have to be brought in, otherwise, it's dangerous for the rescuers, it's dangerous for everybody, but i can't see an obvious way this suddenly

becomes possible in this environment. >> and david, we heard from osce monitor today saying that the bodies of the deceased, obviously, this is something that rescuers have to deal with. i mean, they have been out there for a length of time. there are weather conditions. that is only going to deteriorate, that is going to deter rate rapidly and doesn't seem like there is anyone on the ground capable of dealing with this number of fatalities. >> no, and as it progresses, the risk of disease, the bio hazards, things like that become far more than anyone can deal with. you have to get people out there that really know what they are doing to process one soul, one body can take as many as two or three people to process, identify properly take care of and then remove a body. takes about two to three people. so if you figure there is 290 some people there, you're talking an army of people to be processed, not just people with

cell phone cameras taking pictures and walking through fields but personal safety of everyone there. phil as close as he is to that. for us to prepare as an accident investigator, it takes a year to get proper vaccinations. >> phil, i mean, you talked a little bit who is on charge on the ground. are there different prorussian groups in charge of different areas? because we know this is really, let's call it what it is, it's a crime scene, there are multiple. are there different groups in charge of different crime scenes. >> yeah, there are. indeed. so the group that we've been experiencing here, anderson, had been reasonably welcoming, supportive of our presence as have others we met tonight but you heard the osce's response they received from another group, which was very hostile. they even fired their guns in the air acting in an intimidating way towards them

and we heard similar reports at various places across the debris field, as well. different people in different areas and by the admisson, they don't control the groups as closely as they would like. one of the reasons they were a little concerned about us making our way out here tonight, that is a fact is that not all of these groups listen to that leadership as much as others and it all ties in to what we've been talking about and that is that the situation on this ground cannot possibly change significantly quickly. the question of where the necessary resources and people and infrastructure that could come in to take care of all this, it is not easily answered, not from the separatists here, not from the ukrainian government, very unlikely from russia, as well. >> mary, we heard the ntsb has a team that could go in but how does that work? do they have to be invited?

who would do that inviting in this situation? >> in this case, ukraine can invite them in. it's their land. technically they have the ability to do that. since it's a crime scene, you would expect them to do that and more. pan am 103 which is a crime scene, there were 1,000 investigators assigned to get to work and literally comb the fields. that at a minimum, you need 1,000 investigators and that's about what it takes, so i don't know how they will get them there with hostilities. >> phil mud, there are two fbi agents on the way to the scene and telling cnn they will assist. you say they have another goal for the criminal investigation. >> yeah, i think we, anderson, got to look at two baskets here. mostly past day or so, we looked at the intelligence basket. that is understanding what happened in a snapshot in time when the muzzss missile was lau. something we haven't talked

about, our intelligence analysts will look at a bunch of data and say did we see truck matted missiles moving around and going across the boarder? with fbi agents and the identification of a dual citizen, american citizen on that plane, there is a separate basket that is do we have evidence that can be admitted in the international criminal court in a court of law in new york city or washington years down the road? further more, forget about the site, can you talk to people who might have witnessed that plane coming down? were there witnesses over time in the course of years, can we talk to people in the ukraine opposition who might have been involved and responsible for this? those are two different baskets. with the fbi there, we're transitioning into the criminal realm. >> you have a commercial airliner going down in a rebel held area in the midst of a war zone in terms of a hotly

contested political climate. >> there are but not in this situation where it's a large civilian jetliner with an american on board. there have been about 22 shootdowns and half of those are rebels and war area. the number one area has been around russia but yeah, about half the shootdown haves been in situations like this but not in this magnitude, not this number of people. >> we got to take a break, we'll talk to the panel throughout our special extended coverage tonight. we'll be on until 10:00 hour tonight. there is so much to cover. when we come back, we'll tell you about some of the people on flight 17. we started to learn more about them and some of their family members want you to know about them. they want you to know about the lives they lived, what they accomplished in those lives, the love they had for their fellow family members, what they did, all that they can say about them. you'll hear from some people who miss them so much in just a moment.

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we're spending two hours on the downing of flight 17 because there are so many avenues the investigation is taking. on a 24-hour news network there is time but we would like to make time to tell stories of some of the 29 8 people that lost their lives. in the end this is a human tragedy for the families of all those friends and family who died. 298 dead is not and should not be a statistic. it is 298 moments of hope, 298 people who loved and were loved who experienced triumph and loss and deserve a moment. there is quinn lucas seansman a

dutch man american. the only american on the flight we learned today. he was studying business in amsterdam. loved to play soccer. he was the kind of guy who stuck up for you and made you laugh when you were hurting. quinn seansman we remember tonight. another woman was pursuing a doctorate where she was a scholar and athlete. she was a champion rower and her friends say a passionate one of that. >> he wthis man was traveling w his grandchildren. bringing them home for the new school year. nick loved his grand kidding and sailing and looked forward to sailing with them in the waters off perth. nick norris, we'll speak with his nephew a bit later tonight and as we mentioned at the top, the loss of flight 17 created a terrible brain drain in the life sciences. there was an aid's researcher and worker on board headed to a

conference in australia. one says he was a hard core scientists with the heart of an activist. another remembers him as an extraordinary person. joep lange we'll remember. we'll talk to dr. sanjay gupta about him. another scientists as a leading researcher, he helped rehabilitate thousands of acres of land damaged by salt in the soil and water. he and his wife yvonne were returning from the in thor lands where they were visiting family. we're joined tonight by his brother, drew. drew, thank you for being with us. i'm so sorry for your loss, losing your brother and sister in law, as well. what kind of people were they? were they like? >> my brother was one of the most generous warmest people i've known. just a very -- guy that enjoyed

life, liked adventure but just cared a lot about a lot of other people. he had a very, very strong family man, loved his kids and his grandkids just a wonderful individual. >> he had three grown kids, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> and i understand they live near him. how are they holding up? >> it's been really tough, as you can imagine. such a shock and that's, you know, we're just trying to process this. it just happened so suddenly and i just -- it's hard for me even to still comprehend what happened. >> when something like this happens, i mean, what is the process? did somebody contact you? how did you first learn that your brother and his wife were even on the flight. >> well my family is originally from the netherlands. my parents were dutch. they immigrated to australia. that's where i was born and the rest of my siblings. we have a lot of family in the

netherlands and they were visiting there as well as other parts of europe and my uncle had brought them to the airport in amsterdam and it was him that called me yesterday morning absolutely distraught saying have you seen the news, this plane has gone down and, you know, your brother was on the plane and i, you know, was in disbelief. how do you know? are you sure? yeah, i dropped him off at the airport and i can see. >> i know your family released a statement saying you're not seeking justice or retribution for the accident or placing blame. can you explain why that was important for you to convey? >> well, yeah, we're -- our entire family, we're strong christians. our fifth is very important to us and part of that faith tradition says that we should forgive those that have wronged us and in this case, we know that there were some terrible things that were done. we don't know who was

responsible. it's not important for us to come after those people. if anything, we want to forgive them for some things that they have done here that they shouldn't have done. >> it's an extraordinary expression of your faith, especially at a time like this. is there anything else you want people to know about your brother, about your sister-in-law? >> yeah, just that, you know, they were very content with life. i think they were ready to go, if you know what i mean, at any time and i'd like to think that, you know, we're all kind of in that position. obviously, we enjoy experiences in life, but i think this to me was a testament that you should live life to the fullest because you don't know how long you have on this earth. he did that. yvonne, his wife, was supportive of him, understood him and supported him in his enjoyment for life and experiences and he

was also -- accomplished a lot in his career with the department of agriculture, 30 years there. in fact, he was due to receive an award on the day after he got back for his 30 years of experience and with the department. >> wow. drew, i appreciate you taking the time to tell us about them both and again, i'm so sorry for your loss and please express my condolences to the rest of your family. >> thank you. for all the people experiencing such deep feelings of loss, there are some who are in a different kind of shock at what might have been and nearly was but for one twist of fate or another. berry simil, izzy similar triedo board but could only get one seat so they switched to a later flight. >> i'm shaking. i don't even know what to do and i'm feeling physically sick. i was like coming to the airport

in the taxi i was just crying. i feel like i've been given a second chance and so hopefully, we'll get there safely and we'll see my family again. >> incredible. hers is not the only such story of good or bad fortune tonight. when we come back, another angel, the search for accountability by learning all that can be learned for the missile involved, where it came from and what it took to send it on its deadly way. ind the works! it's a complete checkup of the services your vehicle needs. so prepare your car for any road trip by taking it to an expert ford technician. because no matter your destination good maintenance helps you save at the pump. get our multi-point inspection with a synthetic blend oil change, tire rotation, brake inspection and more for $29.95 or less. get a complete vehicle checkup only at your ford dealer.

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welcome back to continuing coverage. you're looking at a live picture of part of the downed aircraft lay income a field in ukraine. total destruction, daybreak coming soon. the horrors of that site becoming visible for yet, another second day. as we have been reporting, the working theory is prorussian rebels brought down flight 17 with a missile system supplied by the russian military. they would not give details what specific intelligence led to that assumption. meanwhile, u.s. intelligence and military analysts are examining this video, take a look, released by the ukrainian

government, apparently showing a buke system being driven back to the boarder after the plane went down. jim sciutto joins me live. what are we finding out about the weapon used to bring down this plane? >> the u.s. assessment to fire the missiles, the prorussian rebels would have needed some russian help. that was said on the floor of the un security counsel by the ambassador, the pentagon spokesman john kirby going a step forward saying it would strain for those rebels to fire this without russian help. they don't have it yet. they don't have evidence they have russian advisors but at least raising hard questions and suggesting that they would have at least needed some help to make this happen. >> are things any clearer today as to exactly where the weapons may have come from? you and i talked about this earlier today because yesterday,

there had been a report that perhaps they had been taken from a ukraine military base months ago in crimea and then there was also one person who said today or unofficial telling cnn they came from russia. >> this is the working theory of u.s. officials, that the weapons came across the boarder, the missile launcher came across the boarder from russia. yesterday officials said they knew, there were pictures up on the internet that the rebels had somehow captured one of these at a ukrainian base and might have somehow gotten it to eastern ukraine. it's not established if this is the same one but i'm told by u.s. officials that at least the work in theory now is that it came across the boarder. you reference that video that shows this missile launcher going back into russia after the strike. ukrainian officials gave us recordings earlier today that purported to show those prorussian rebels describing the missile launcher as it came into

eastern ukraine in russia and i have spoke ton u.s. officials and asked do they have any reason to doubt the authenticity of the recordings. they say they do not and cannot confirm them but no reason to doubt them. >> appreciate the update. jim sciutto with me as cia senior official phillip mud. you're familiar with this missile system. we heard from the pentagon today that it is relatively sophisticated, that they believe there must have been or in all likelihood there were some sort of training by russian forces where that took place, when that took place is unclear. how much training would somebody need? >> for the similar u.s. system, we put someone through six months of training and this is a four-man crew so it's not just one person being trained. you have to have somebody that can run this. >> four people who have different roles to play. >> right, one will run the radar, one will run the missile, one will run the other radar. there are several different

radar systems that have to be run. this is a sophisticated system. we're watching one unit. 1/4th of the system. that's the key part, launcher and radar. we're not seeing the acquisition radar, which leads me to believe that when they turned this on, they had a limited ray car capability and they probably had trouble identifying that target as a civilian airliner. >> phil, from an intelligence perspective, what can you add to the investigation by tracking this weapon, if in fact, ukraine ministry put on the facebook page, the video of the weapon being brought back to russia. if the weapon itself crosses over into russia and disappears, is that kind of game over in terms of determining the trajectory of this, more about it? >> it's not even close to game over. first, there is the proattack stuff, prestrike stuff you'll look at. volumes of imagery inteam jns

s -- intelligence saying did we see missile systems moving around within ukraine then there is a lot of after action, anderson, that we haven't talked about. you'll look at intelligence to say hey, do we see a system like this moving around? do we see it moving across the boarder? there is an interesting piece of that this and that is human intelligence we haven't discussed. you have presumably sources within the ukraine opposition, maybe run by the u.s., maybe they are run by the ukrainians, what are they saying when can we get access? in my experience when you have a tragedy like this, you might have members of the opposition who become disaffected by the opposition. people in my old business we call walk ins who walk into a u.s. facility, call in, send an e-mail and say hey, i'm disgusted with what i've seen. i want to talk to you about what i know. the walk in situation, whether we find people in the coming days or week whose want to talk about what they have seen is significant. >> can you definitively match,

you know, a particular weapon system to this crash, or do you need the actual radar that's on the weapon system? >> well, yes, you can, is the short answer. the war head will be the key here and that's why they need access to this site, fairly quickly so they can check the residue on that aircraft. this was a proximity fused war head. so it would approach within 100 meters and detonate. if they can find out what that was, they can match that to the type of war head, the explosive. >> what you're really talking about is a war head that explodes, sends out shrapnel, it's not something that completely -- >> it's not a strike. the war head explodes in the proximity and shoots out all

this shrapnel and that's why you see the aircraft breaking up, but not necessarily exploding. coming up, we're looking at the impact the latest developments will have on diplomatic relations between the u.s. and russia. president obama had tough words for president putin today. that's next. a lot more to cover. (vo) you know that dream... where you're the hero? hey... you guys mind warming this fella up for me? i'm gonna go back down, i saw some recyclables. make it happen with verizon xlte. find a car service. we've doubled our 4g lte bandwidth in cities coast to coast. thanks! sure. we've got a spike in temperature. so save the day... don't worry, i got this... oh yeah, i see your spaceship's broken. with xlte on largest, most reliable network. get 50% off all new smartphones like the lg g3. you fifteen percent or more on huh, fiftcar insurance.uld save yeah, everybody knows that. well, did you know that playing cards with kenny rogers gets old pretty fast? ♪ you got to know when to hold'em. ♪

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there are questions about diplomatic reactions in the wake of the flight being shot down. it came a day after the u.s. imposed tougher sanctions against to and he made it clear to putin that a diplomatic resolution is what he prefers but putin will have to stop supporting violent rebels and president obama said setting aside what happened to flight 17, there is no way the rebels can function the way they are without russia's support. listen. >> a group of separatists can't shootdown military transport planes or they claim shootdown fighter jets without sophisticated equipment and training and that can coming from russia. >> joining me now is former cnn chief joe doorty and former u.s.

ambassador william taylor. jill, president obama tough words for putin today. you say he's really laying it on the line with the russian president. >> yeah, i think he really is. i think there is an enormous amount of frustration. the white house believes that president putin has really been talking but not doing anything. and this is really crunch time. i mean, the president said it's time to step back and take a hard look and i think he's saying directly to putin, enough of this already. you're the guy who can change things, now you have to do it. this is really out of control. >> bill, obama also said that putin has the most control over the situation, that if he wanted the flow of fighters and weapons to stop it would but can vladimir putin control the conflict or has it spirals beyond that point? >> anderson, i think president putin can clearly stop the flow of weapons, of people, of

financing of soldiers, of intelligence agencies across the boarder. he has total control within russia. he can close the boarder within a heart beat that would starve the separatists in ukraine. he probably has lost control of the separatists in ukraine. so in that respect, yes, but he has full responsibility for the flow of those weapons and the flow of that equipment and the flow of those soldiers and intelligence agents across that boarder and has the full responsibility for their actions. >> jill, the secretary of defense chuck hagel from the united states saying the russians will have to take responsibility for all of this. do you think regardless of how this turns out, even if the evidence points clearly to the russians, they would take any blame? i don't see any scenario where that happens, do you? >> it's very, very difficult, anderson, because after all, vladimir putin stepping back on

this and yet, it's such a horrific event and there are so many people from other countries who are involved, that the world, at least a lot of the world is up in arms about this. so what can he do? domestically, it's really hard because i've been watching the russian media and they are still trying to blame it on ukraine and the west and the united states. so for putin in a political domestic political sense to step back and even admit some type of comebility is hard. there is some chance behind the scenes to begin to really talk turkey between both countries, the united states and russia, talking with each other behind the scenes and saying how do you pull this back. >> let's talk about europe. countries across the world lost

citizens in the downing of this plane. european countries so far have really enacted minimal sanctions for russia's bad behavior. i mean, they have a lot of russian investment in england and elsewhere and they haven't been able to get tough against russia. do you think that actually changes now? >> i do. i think this changes dramatically. you're right. the europeans have tried to look the other way as much as they could. they have economic interest and other interest they have been careful not to jeopardize. this damage is that whole attitude. this means that the europeans will have to take a hard look at who is responsible. they will conclude as we have discussed that the russians are responsible and will have to take action. the action could be following the tougher sanctions that president obama put on two days ago, the europeans may well have to follow that lead. >> ambassador taylor, appreciate you being on the program and joe doorty, as well. he's being remembered as a visionary, giant and pioneer.

what his death and the loss of other researchers on board this flight and not just researchers, hiv aids activist whose really affected change over the last 20 years throughout the world, what this man's death and others could mean for the future of hiv aids research and treatment in the search for a cure.

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this is of course, a global tragedy, event when you see the list of nationalities of the passengers on board this flight. 191 people from the netherlands, 44 people from malaysia, all the crew members from malaysia, 27 people from australia, european countries, ten from the united kingdom, four from germany and the list goes on and on. the loss of 298 people is of course, i'm measurable. we wish the loved ones that perished strength in the difficult times ahead. a number of passengers were on their way to an international

aids conference in australia including a prominent hiv aid's researcher. the loss of the dedicated scientists and activists left the global health community reeling. dr. sanjay gupta has more. >> reporter: the health community around the world in utter shock. the international aids society says a number of its members were on board malaysia airlines flight 17. they were heading to the aids 2014 conference in melbourne, australia. scheduled to start this sunday. typically attended by thousands from all over the world and among them leading hiv experts. their loss likely to have an impact on research, diagnosing, treating and curing the disease. former president bill clinton is one of the keynote speakers of the conference. he says it's awful, sickening what happened to so many gifted people. >> they were doing so much good. this gathering, we do this on a regular basis, and i try to go to all of them because i'm

always so inspired by what other people are doing and what we can learn from them and so since i left office, it's been kind of a regular part of my life thinking about those people being knocked out of the sky, it's pretty tough. >> reporter: one of the victims, prominent dutch scientist joep lang. i met him in 2004 in bangkok. those who knew him say he was a hard core scientists with the heart of an activist who worked tirelessly to get affordable aids drugs for hiv positive patients living poor countries. one small example of his work, he argued if coca-cola could get refrigerated beverages to places all over africa, we should be able to do the same with refrigerated hiv medications. >> people in his lab and on the society as a whole, it's an

incredible loss. we're all just bracing ourselves to arrive and find out who else may have been on that flight, it's just unbelievable. it's not really real yet. >> reporter: the world health organization tells cnn the spokesman glen thomas was on the flight. he most recently worked with us during the coverage of the ebola outbreak in guinea. a friend says he was a wonderful man doing great work in the world and was also planning his 50th birthday celebration. his life and so many others cut tragically short. >> dr. sanjay gupta joins me now. beyond the tragedy for friends and family members and loved ones of the researchers and activists, i mean, the collective brain trust of these people has been lost. what kind of an impact do you think it has on a global movement to fight hiv, aids? >> i think it will have a significant impact in the immediate aftermath.

this meeting coming up on sunday, i can't imagine it's going to cast a real power over it. look, anderson, people will fill the ranks, ultimately but when you look at some of these people. their entire professional lives was spent looking at this disease so it's impossible to download everything they were thinking about, knew about the way they put different things together. joep lang who you saw in the piece, he was one of the first person to look at maternal to child transmission, if we can disrupt that cycle, look at the lives we can save. you can serve coca-cola refrigerated in africa, why can't we do the same thing with hiv, aids medications? it was a combination of smarts that created people like him. >> such a loss. appreciate you being with us. >> thank you. we'll have more on the loss. we'll talk to mark harrington in our next hour about these

researchers and doctors and activists on board this plane and what it means. stay with us for another live hour of 360 and we'll get the latest on the downing of mh 17 from phil black on the ground at the crash site when we come back. i make a lot of purchases for my business.

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-- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com good evening, thanks for joining us. it is 4:00 a.m. in ukraine. those who lie there tonight, whose bodies lay there, that's a large piece of what was 777 flight 17. inside the wreckage, the remains of a single life, human remains everywhere. white ribbons mark the place where they came to rest of a missile blew their plane from the sky. they lie in a war zone, of course, and tonight because of that, more than a day after the fact, they lie there still. there are other images, most of which we cannot and would never show you. they are simply too horrific. this is the ugly fact a weapon of war brought down a jet and due to it, america's tense relationship is getting tenser still. we're going to cover all the angels in the hour ahead and we'll take you to phil black who is the only correspondent and we will, as always, take time and care to remember and honor the

lives of the men, the women and the children of flight 17. >> we're boarding and we're loading. >> images from inside malaysia airlines flight 17 before take off yesterday as the 298 passengers and crew prepare for their 11-hour journey to kuala lump lumpur. an air missile downed the jet. who is responsible for the about is still unknown. take a look at this video released by the ukrainian government. it looks to show a missile system, the same kind believed to shut down the plane driving through prorussian territory in ukraine heading towards russia. look closely, notice one missile missing. the video said to have been taken after the plane was shot down. the working theory is that russia provided prorussian separatists in east enukraine with the anti-aircraft missile system that took down the jet. president obama declined to place direct blame on anyone

party but had strong words for his russian counter part. >> the violence taking place there is facilitated in part in large part because of russian support and they have the ability to move those separatists in a different direction. if mr. putin makes a decision that we are not going to allow heavy armorments, and the flow of fighters into ukraine across the ukrainian russia boarder, then it will stop. >> the ukrainian government continues to blame both russia and separatists for the incident calling it an act of terrorism in releasing audio recordings intercepted they say from rebels talking about taking down an aircraft just after the plane crashed. [speaking foreign language]. >> the crash site, pieces of white cloth dot the landscape

marking the spots where the victims fell. witnesses describe the terrible moment when the plane and everything in it fell to earth. it was a very strong plane rumble, then sort of explosion or flap and then people started falling from the sky this man says. people were appearing right from the clouds, and the plane's fuse lodge appeared. complicating the situation where the crash occurred, the territory in eastern ukraine controlled by prorussian rebels making it difficult to access the site and preserve evidence. reporters on served looting by locals and monitors from the organization for security and corporation in europe were only allowed to view about 200 yards of a debris field estimated to be six square miles. >> it basically looks like one of the biggest or the biggest crime scene in the world right now guarded by a bunch of guys in uniform with heavy firepower who are quite inhospitable. >> more troubling, the

whereabouts of the plane's flight recorders or black boxes are unknown. following rumors that they had been taken to russia, the ukrainian official told cnn they are in ukraine though he seemed unable to say where. one of many claims and counter claims complicating a crime and a tragedy that's growing larger by the day. well, the crash site in eastern ukraine we said remains a very dangerous place. phil black is on the scene. he joins us now, now live. phil, this is just one of several crime scenes, just one of several crash sites. how big an area are we talking about? how spread out is this debris field? >> reporter: it is a number of miles, at least, anderson, as the sunrises here in the skies just beginning to turn light now, we hope to get a better sense of it, but it is a wide area. what we have is one big piece of wreckage, the closest we're told is several miles down the road from here and again further beyond that. so it is a vast area indicating

that the aircraft most likely to some -- to a very significant degree broke up in the skies overhead showering this wide area with the wreckage you see behind me and many bodies we see here, as well, anderson. >> and there is no attempt at this point to actually or no capabilities, really, at this point to try to deal with and preserve and bring dignity to those who have died, correct? >> reporter: very limited capability, certainly. i can't comment on what extent there is motivation. we don't see a great deal of it at the moment. you're right. most many of the bodies we see are still effectively lying where they were thrown from the wreckage, as you say, some of them have been marked or their locations marked with white cloth and that's it. we're told that some recovery operation has begun to some degree. we don't know how long it will take. the emergency workers we've been

speaking to here say it's not their job to collect these bodies, if not them, then who? at the moment it certainly does not look like the rebels, which control this area, are about to invite in other authorities, officials, workers and organizations from the rest of ukraine to come in here and do this more effectively in the sort of way you would normally expect to see at a catastrophe of this scale. >> we learned it was yesterday or last night that we learned that three of those on board were infants. today we also learned that among the 298 people who died, 80 of them were children. 80 children lying in that field right now. phil is going to stay with us. i want to bring in our aviation correspondent richard quest and david gallo and miles o'bryan. richard, in terms of the investigation, in terms of,

again, the priority of bringing -- dealing with those who died with dignity, we are nowhere close to where we want to be. >> no, we're not even at the beginning. you got the investigation to what happened. let's put that to one side. that will happen in the fullness of time and transparent and have integrity to that. before we even get to that point, you have the much more humane, humanitarian issue of how are you going to deal with this wreckage, recover the remains, deal with the dignity, the refrigeration, the bio hazardous material there, the prospect of disease. anderson, you need hundreds of specialized stuff. reinforced, security forces that will protect the area, keep it secure, keep the people secure, reinforce with ambulances, refrigeration. the reason i'm putting it in these terms is to give you the idea of how far away this is from where it needs to be to

even be a remotely descent operation. >> david gallo, the black boxes, if they -- we don't know where they are. there have been reports they have been handed over to russian authorities. we simply don't know. we cannot confirm anything. there are a lot of rumors at that point and we don't want to go down the road. >> sure. >> can black boxes be scrubbed, broken into. >> sure. >> they can certainly be made to disappear. >> they are just data recorders in the right hands or wrong hands, sure, you can compromise seals and change and erase things. i don't know what evidence would be on the black boxes that would change our opinion of what may or may not have happened but nevertheless, they are one of the most important pieces of evidence and apparently gone. >> you can get a sense whether anyone made an attempt to contact the aircraft, identify the aircraft, whether there was communication and would give you a sense, i mean, and again, this, the horrible reality of this is whether or not and for how long this plane may have

continued in the air with passengers with crew members still alive. >> that's right, yeah. there is evidence from the fuse lodge. we heard earlier about the kinds of missile that may have brought the plane down would leave a residue and certain fragmentation on the fuse lodge. it would be important to sample that. that's being compromised but not getting into the crime scene soon and protecting it. >> miles without securing the site, a strong case is being built for who is responsible based on the missile used and satellite data. >> let's face it, there really isn't much of a mystery here anymore and there is lots of threads of evidence that are away from the wreckage, which are helping out. u.s. intelligence assets, which identified the heat signature of the missile being launched, the radar signature, the trafficking device used to traffic in and hone in on the target. we have additional material from the ukraine side, hasn't been

verified but apparently boasts about the use of the launching system, a boast from one of the rebel leaders indicating they shot down a transport aircraft, which was later taken off being online. there is many layers of evidence which are away from those horrible horrific fields of debris and bodies and we've reached a point where we're not thinking so much about a mystery but building a case, a strong forensic case. >> phil, is it clear on the ground from where you are and from the prorussian rebels you've talked to about what they want to see happen? i know we were told that people are being told not to touch the bodies, not to move the bodies, but are they willing -- do we know are they willing to observ there were issues of them being hampered. the people you talk to, do they say they would be willing to allow ntsb people and others

into the site? >> reporter: nothing on the scale that is required here. you're right, they let the osce in for a short time today. that is not an organization nanos how to deal with something like that. their job is monitoring security, not the dig fied recovery of air traffic systems and looking into securing the area and beginning the investigation. that's not their stick. what is needed is something far greater than that. it needs this place needs to be opened up and secured. it need s to bring in experts and a much bigger force of people from ukraine and at the moment, there is no sign that's going to happen. we are standing in the middle of a debris field effectively changed very little in more than a day and a half and no sign it's going to change any time in the coming day or so, as well, i would say, anderson. >> to our viewers, phil is being very cautious about where we're pointing cameras, i'm not asking

phil to move around to kind of show the scene because frankly, there is an awful lot that, i mean, frankly, if there are relatives of people on board this flight or any viewers, it's a grizzly seen as you can imagine. we don't want people seeing their loved ones identifiable in this kind of situation. i want to read what we're just getting in. ukraine's counsel released a statement below and i'm just reading it for the first time. terrorists are swinterfering of international invest gages of the crash of boeing 777 and preventing ukrainian experts from conducting work at the scene. response units of the state emergency services at the scene are under the control of militants. all evidence is being seized by terrorists, terrorists is a term the government in kiev uses to describe the rebels. the statement says they announced their intention to find and remove black boxes and the bodies of victims, as well. what do you make of that?

>> this is just further evidence, whoever is right or wrong in this allegation of the enormi enormity, and i use that word n they are facing as they deal with the recovery of the remains. the only way i can see a bit of light is if you end up with a relatively neutral country, in this case, it will be maybe the netherlands, the dutch, they suffered the greatest loss of life and in someway the netherlands can put together the coalition. they certainly got the expertise, experience of dealing with these issues. that is the only way i can see forward because a european coalition would only raise the ha put us right back in the . >> there are people with cadaver dogs, search and rescue teams that can get in there if they g get the permission in the sense if there is enough safety.

>> the controversy, would it be the british or french? go for the neither lands and you have perhaps the opportunity of moving forward. >> we got to take a quick break. we'll continue with the panel. the stories of some lives lost on flight 17, including three young children and their loving grandfather from australia on their way home and died together. [ female announcer ] we help make secure financial tomorrows a reality for over 19 million people. [ alex ] transamerica helped provide a lifetime of retirement income. so i can focus on what matters most. [ female announcer ] everyone has a moment when tomorrow becomes real. transamerica.

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at a special site for tv viewers; go to ziprecruiter.com/offer5. in all the reporting how flight 17 was brought down, this is not just a story about that, not even primarily a story about that or the diplomatic efforts, at the end of the day, this a story cut short. nick norris lived. he was traveling home with his three grandchildren, three of 80 kids on board the flight. he was bringing them home for a new school year. his nephew matthew jones is with us tonight matt, i'm so sorry for what you and your family is going through, your uncle nick was with his three grandchildren. what was nick like? >> hi, anderson. nick was a real inspirational hero to me. he was a really strong family

man. he was a really -- he was a dreamer but also great guy but it's a real tragedy, the whole thing for all the families concerned, but also, for nick, you know, there is no way to make this a better story, but the fact that he was with his grandchildren until the end caring for his family is perhaps a way of looking at the strength that he brought to things. >> that they were all together. how is your mother and other family members? how are they holding up? >> i think understandably, you could say that they are quite devastated, not only have they lost a cousin or a brother, but importantly, they have lost three beautiful, these three beautiful children have been

lost, as well, and i think that's the real heart of this tragedy. it's such a stealing of innocent life. >> nick sounds like an incredibly strong guy. what did he do for a living? >> nick was a really great thinker. he successfully ran a company looking collaborating change. he worked around australia and internationally helping to bring change about to communities and he was also an army officer. he commanded the battalion, which his father served in during the second world war. >> that's amazing. >> he had a range of experiences, yeah, he was a real inspiration, yeah. >> well, matt, i appreciate you taking the time to talk to us and i'm so sorry for your loss and your whole family's losses. thank you so much. >> thanks, anderson. for all the people experiencing these deep feelings of loss. there are some in a different kind of shock, still being

alive, frankly. they are shocked they are alive thanks to a stroke of luck that they might have actually taken flight 17 but chose not to. there is that, there are others of course, who ended up on the flight almost by chance. in every tragedy, this are strange twists of all kinds, more on that now from debra. >> reporter: if it disappears, this is what it looks like. a photo of malaysia airlines flight 17 an hour before take off. the dutch man making a dark joke referring to missing malaysia airlines flight 370 that vanished from radar in march. his is one of the only known photos by a passenger purportly of ml 17 shot down in a rebel held area of ukraine. for mh 17 passenger, the missing flight was also very much on his mind. under the hashtag, feeling a little nervous, he posted video purported to be the inside of flight 17. listen as a flight aden tettend

prepares the cabin. [speaking foreign language]. >> we're boarding and loading, one again, do ensure phones are off for the flight. >> reporter: australian kay can lee's story is hard to believe. still grieving her brother, she lost her stepdaughter on flight 17 and then there is amired couple, both malaysian airline flight attendants. the wife allegedly swapped shifts off missing flight 370 and survived. but her husband, swapped shifts on to flight 17. sadly, he died along with the other 297 passengers and crew. but there are other would be passengers who are counting their blessings today thanks to a chance decision or twist after fate that kept them off the doomed flight. >> i feel like i've been given a second chance, and so hopefully that we'll get there safely and we'll see my family again.

>> reporter: izzy simm, her husband and baby bumped off the flight. >> i'm feeling physically sick. from the hilton coming to the airport in the taxi, just crying. >> reporter: also supposed to be on flight 17, juan and his bride. after a five and a half week honeymoon they switched flights to return to work without jet lag. >> feeling lucky but at the same time, hearts bleed for the families expecting their loved ones to come home. >> stories of improbable loss, each one resonates because each one resonates how fine the line is between what was and what might have been. >> coming up tonight, we'll speak to someone doing some of the toughest work imaginable at the crash site. he's witnessing it and talks about it next. the wonder of summer is that i never know what kind of adventure awaits.

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a member of the first investigative scene to arrive at the crash site says it looks like the biggest crime screen in the world guarded by heavily armed men who are inhospitable. he said no one seems to be in charge and the perimeter is not secure, of course, troubling information concerning this is not only debris field crucial to an investigation, more importantly a grave site where 298 people lost their lives. noah snider is at the wreckage site and i spoke to him today. you spent the night at the crash site. you were there this morning. what was the scene this morning when light finally broke?

>> the scene was strange and surreal. it was quite empty. there was a group of emergency services workers who had also spent the night essentially pitched a tent camp and they began working shortly after 7:00 a.m. they lined up and took a slightly more organized approach top marking the landing sites of the bodies. they actually had maps out and split up the territory but at the same time, it wasn't a sophisticated approach. they were still tieing white cotton to stakes and basically walking through the fields and marking these spots. >> there had been some reports of possible looting or removal of items or removal even of debris. did you see any of that? >> to say there is extensive looting, at least during the morning period while i was there is pretty difficult.

you know, the perimeter there is being controlled as one rebel commander there told me essentially by three groups. one is a set of fighters from three places. some appear to be the wild card, as always, in this situation. >> yesterday you had talked that in some cases they were moving bodies, sort of trying to get all the victims together. does that continue today? did you see that? >> the prime minister called the donetsk people eeps 's republic suggesting people are still hoping there will be a chance for folks to international observers and international investigators to enter the area. the concern, of course, is that

you have hundreds of bodies decaying in a field before anyone has a chance to get to them. it's summer here. it was raining, actually, earlier in the day. to put it simply, it's not ideal conditions. >> did it seem to you that most -- i mean, obviously, investigators will look at what kind of wreck cakage, the piece wreckage. are most of the people, i don't, i'm not sure even how to ask this, are most of the people in tact? >> i think it's about 50/50. i did a walk through this morning and sort of in the daylight and counted roughly 50/50 bodies and i'd say at least half of them are so mangled that you simply couldn't

identify them. some just kind of twisted corpses that look almost different. if handled properly some could be clearly identified. >> i know now you have also been talking to a number of prorussian rebel leaders and spokes people. what are they telling you in terms of claims of responsibility, in terms of what they want to see happen? >> most of the rebels here, i'd say from across the board, deny responsible for this. they claim that it's a provocation conjured up by the ukrainian authorities in kiev. many of them claim they don't have the equipment and components of the system to actually hit this plane. >> so the video posted by ukraine's interior ministry on

his facebook page showing the system and according to ukraine officials heading toward russia with one missile missing, things like that, that's all discounted by anybody in the rebels who you talked to? >> absolutely. they to put it mildly don't trust a word that kiev says. >> it's very possible that you may have family members wanting to come to the crash site as soon as possible. how remote is it? how possible is it to actually get there? >> it's about 90 minutes from the regional capitol dont orkdo a countryside village down potholed little roads but the main issue, i think, for anyone traveling in this region right now is that it's effectively the

roads are controlled by these separatists groups and it's not a safe place to be travel sglg freelance journalist noah snider. another angel, the search for accountability by learning all that can be learned about the missile involved. where it came from, what it takes to send it on its deadly way. your education is built to help move your career forward. here's how: we work with leading employers to learn what you need to learn so classes impact your career. while helping ensure credits you've already earned pay off. and we have career planning tools to keep you on track every step of the way. plus the freshman fifteen, isn't really a thing here. and graduation, it's just the beginning. because we build education around where you want to go. so, you know, you can get the job you want.

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well, picture that says a lot, you have prorussian rebels there on the crash site, one holding a stuffed animal from one of the 80 church 0 childre flight. as we've been reporting, prorussian rebels are believed to have brought down the system by a missile system supplied the military that according to a senior defense official. meanwhile, though, u.s. intelligence and military analysts are examining this video, take a look, released by the ukrainian government showing a bbuke system. jim sciutto joins me live. what more are we finding about the weapon used to bring down this plane? >> the most substantial step forward today is the u.s. assessment that to fire these missiles, these prorussian rebels would have needed some russian help. that was said on the floor of the un sec security counsel by

the u.s. ambassador of the un samantha power. the pentagon spokesman going a step further saying it would strain for them to fire this without russian help. they don't have it. they don't have evidence there are russian advisors but they are raising hard questions and suggesting that they would have at lease needed some help to make this happen. >> are things any clearer today where the weapons may have come from? you and i talked about this earlier today because yesterday there had been a report that perhaps they had been taken from a ukraine military base months ago in crimea and then there was also one person who said today or unofficially telling cnn they came from russia. >> this is the working theory that weapons came across the boarder. this missile launcher came across the border from russia. yesterday ukrainian officials said they knew there were

pictures up on the internet that the rebels somehow captured one of these in the ukrainian base and somehow gotten it to eastern ukraine. it's still not established if this is the same one but i'm told by u.s. officials that at least the working theory now is that he came across the boarder. you reference that video that shows this missile launcher going back into russia after the strike. ukrainian officials gave us recordings earlier today that purport to show prorussian rebels describing the missile launcher as it came into eastern ukraine from across the boarder in russia and i've spoken to u.s. officials and asked do they have an to doubt the authenticity. they cannot confirm them but do not have reason to doubt them. >> jim sciutto, thank you. phillip mud and cnn military analyst rick francona. you're familiar with this missile system. we heard from the pentagon today that it is relatively

sophisticated, that they believe there must have been or in all likelihood, there was some sort of training by russian forces where that took place, when that took place is unclear. how much training would somebody need? >> well, for the similar u.s. system, we put someone through six months of training. and this is a four-man crew, so it's not just one person being trained. you have to have somebody that can run this, so you got -- >> four people all who have different roles to play. >> right, one will run the radar, one will run the missile, one will run the other radar. there are several systems that have to be run. this is a sophisticated system. what we're seeing and jim brought up good points, we're watching one unit. 1/4th of the system. that's the key part the transporter, launcher and radar. we're not seeing the acre s session radar. when they turned this on, they had a limited capability and probably had trouble identifying that target as a civilian airliner. >> from an intelligence

perspective, what can you add by tracking this weapon? if in fact, the ukrainian military put this video of the weapon being brought back to russia, if the weapon itself crosses over into russia and disappears, is that kind of game over in terms of determining the trajectory of this, more about it? >> it's not even close to game over. first there is the preattack stuff, prestrike stuff you'll look at. intelligence from satellite saying did we see something in the weeks beforehand that shows missile systems like this moving around from russia to ukraine or within ukraine? then there is a lot of after action that we haven't talked about. again, you'll look at imagery intelligence to say hey, did we see a system like this moving around? do we see it moving across the boarder? there is an interesting piece of this and that is human intelligence we haven't discussed. you have presumably sources within the ukraine opposition,

maybe run by the u.s., maybe they are run by the ukrainians, what are they saying? when can we get access to them? finally in my experience, when you have a tragedy like this, you might have members of the opposition who sort of become disaffected from the opposition, people in my old business at the cia we call walk ins who walk into u.s. facility, call and send an e-mail and say hey, i'm disgusted with what i've seen. i'd like to talk to you about what i know. the walk in situation, whether we find people in the coming days or week whose want to talk about what they have seen is significant. >> can you definitively match, you know, a particular weapon system to this crash or do you need the actual radar that's on the weapon system? >> well, yes, you can, the short answer. the war head will be the key here and that's why they need access to this site fairly quickly so they can check the residue that's on that aircraft. this was a proximity fused war head. so it would have approached

within about 100 meters of the aircraft and detonate and spray out shrapnel all over the side of the aircraft. if they can find out what that was, they can match that to the type of war head explosive. >> what you're talking about is a war head that explodes, sends out sharapnel and disanables th aircraft, rips it apart and we're seeing large pieces of the aircraft. it's not something that completely disintegrated. >> the war head explodes in the proximity and shoots out all this shrapnel and that's why you're seeing the aircraft breaking up but not necessarily exploding. >> lieutenant colonel, good to have you on. go to jim and phil were mentioning, we got new information from a senior obama administration official who tells us they do in fact believe they transferred, the weapon was transferred into eastern ukraine from russia in recent days or

weeks. that same official says the u.s. believes prorussian separatists could not have operated it without russian training, we're talking about the buke system but doesn't know if russian personnel themselves were on scene at the time of the shootdown. that information just coming in. coming up, the red flags that came before this horrible tragedy and the looming question should the air space have been watched from the ground. for $175 dollars a month? yup. all five of you for $175. our clients need a lot of attention. there's unlimited talk and text. we're working deals all day. you get 10 gigabytes of data to share. what about expansion potential? add a line anytime for 15 bucks a month. low dues... great terms... let's close. introducing at&t mobile share value plans... ...with our best-ever pricing for business. so i get invited to quite a few family gatherings. heck, i saved judith here a fortune

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>> tonight the red flags and despite them flight 17 was in the path. >> reporter: the signs of danger were all around, this also follows a pattern of actions by russian back separatists. june 13th, prorussian rebels shot down a ukrainian military transport plane killing 49 people. june 24th, rebels shoot a ukrainian helicopter shooting down nine and this week, monday, july 14th a cargo plane shot out of the sky, then wednesday, a fighter jet shot down. the next day, flight 17 suffered the same fate. red flags ignored? malaysia airlines says no. >> the flight path taken by 17

was approved by the international aviation administration and by the countries whose space they passed through and international transportation. >> reporter: ukraine authorized flights above 32,000 feet, an altitude considered safe. nonetheless, some airlines did avoid the area unless the air space is restricted, it's their call whether to fly through. a new york times report says carriers like british airways and air france flew around the conflict zone all together. reuters reuterss reports so did korean airlines and china airlines. carriers like malaysia airlines flew directly over the war zone. >> you can't simply take every air space that might have a problem and say we're not going

to fly there because, as i say, the global scope of that would be enormous. >> reporter: late this week, the dangers of the air space now abundantly clear. those aviation authorities took action. the aviation arms of the un and europe recommending that airlines avoid the air space and the u.s. and ukraine prohibiting flights there, but for flight 17, it's too late. rene marsh, cnn, washington. >> joining me again, david and miles o'bryan. this flight was an illegally approved air space, david, should it have been able to fly at 33,000 feet? we know ukraine limited the air space below that. >> yeah, should it have been, was it legal to, was it okay to be there? absolutely on paper. but you have to think beyond that sometimes. part of this, i have to think because ukraine has instability in ukraine, these notes are

supposed to be issued by the country of origin. they are supposed to be annexed 15 and issuing and say this is not a safe place to be. the distraction what is the kiss extraction going on right there may have played a part in that. >> hindsight is 20/20. but how much of this is a financial decision by an airline like malaysian airlines which we know is in financial trouble given what happened months ago with the other plane? >> it's the only explanation, anderson. why else wouldn't you go around that heavily contested part of the world? take a few minutes to either go north or south, as many airlines chose to do in a prudent fashion. and burned a little more fuel. it's a commercial decision which trumps a safety decision. this happens all the time in the airline industry. ultimately, the captain of that airliner should have the right to refuse a flight plan that has been laid out by a dispatcher. but maybe the culture of the airline was such that there was

tremendous pressure on them to deliver these flights as efficiently as possible. you know, i looked at this particular flight over the past month or so on flight aware, and compared it to what they flew today. which incidentally was still flight 17. usually they change the number. it was interesting. they flew way south today over the black sea. and it took them five more minutes. five more minutes over a 12-hour flight. that's what we're talking about here. >> i mean, david, is that fair to raise the question, how much was this just a financial decision? >> yeah, i think he is right about that. i think that it is a financial decision. but if it's only five minutes, how much money did they really save or not save as well? so you have to think about that. it's easy to say yeah, the airlines made a financial decision. i tend to think more of this atrophy of vigilance. it's we've done this over and over and over, and it's not been a risk. >> the atrophy of vigilance. >> the more you do something, the less you think you're at

risk. and eventually you get used to that and you're numb to the additional risks. >> david soucie, miles o'brien. still a lot of questions to be asked. and no doubt we will be asking them in the days and the weeks ahead. when we come back, i want to focus on more of those on board the plane, what we now know about them. also, the missile that took down flight 17. really, decades of knowledge and expertise in the aids research community. dozens of researchers and workers were on board headed to a conference. one of them is being remembered as a giant in his field. we're going to talk to a friend and a colleague, several people on board the mane of the legendary hiv activist himself, mark carrington. he joins me ahead. a reality for over 19 million people. [ susan ] my promotion allowed me to start investing for my retirement. transamerica made it easy. [ female announcer ] everyone has a moment when tomorrow becomes real. transamerica. transform tomorrow.

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the loss of 298 people is of course immeasurable. we wish the loved ones of those who perished on the flight strength in the difficult days and weeks and months and years even ahead. as we have reported dozens of the passengers were on their way to an international aids conference in australia, including a prominent hiv researcher, joep lange. president clinton is a keynote speaker at the conference. he said it's sickening what is happening to so many gifted people. >> this gathering, we do this on a regular basis, have these international aids conferences. and try to go to all of them because i'm always so inspired by what other people are doing and what we can learn from them.

so since i left office, it's been kind of a regular part of my life, thinking about those people being knocked out of the sky. it's pretty tough. >> the loss of these dedicated scientists and activists has left the global health community reeling. mark harrington is executive director of the treatment action network and a friend of dr. lange. he joins me. you knew dr. lange for 20 years i understand. what was he like? >> joep lange was a really passionate, smart, committed aids researcher who sergeanted out doing one of the world's best aids treatment programs in holland in the '90s. and then as soon as effective treatment became available, he was passionate about having global treatment access. and he worked really hard doing research in thailand, doing treatment access all across africa. he was a passionate believer that the poor should have access to equally high quality treatment as the rich. >> he had famously said the thing about if coca-cola can

deliver refrigerated drinks to all of africa -- >> we should be able to deliver hiv treatment. >> he saved countless lives. >> he was a part of this huge movement which has now resulted in 10 million people around the world being on effective hiv treatment. one of the greatest accomplishment in public health history. >> what sort of effect do you think this has on the movement, on the hiv/aids community around the world? >> well, i think it's a devastation that is shared by thousands of people, because he affected thousands of people's lives. we're all part of one aids community where we're activists or doctors or whether we're living with hiv or in the north and the south, men, women, gay, or straight. we all work together. he was a leader within our community there is going to be a lot of grief. >> the sheer number of people in the community who were on board this flight headed towards this conference. there is -- beyond the personal loss for the family and the loved ones of these people, the

collective sort of brain trust of all these people, the decades that collectively that they had all worked on this issue, that's been lost for us all. >> yup. but i would say that his message will live on. he gave a talk just a few weeks ago in vancouver at a treatment prevention meeting about how we really need to continue to scale up treatment so that we can end the epidemic. and i think that message will resonate, and maybe in a way, although it's tragic, maybe his work will even have a more profound effect because people will remember him and they'll want to work harder in his honor. >> did you know other people on board the flight? >> yes. there was a friend of mine from the world health organization who works in the tb, tuberculosis program, who is a really excellent, wonderful kind hearted person. almost too nice for public health. his name was glenn thomas. >> i talked to somebody else from the w.h.o. about him earlier today. >> he was just a wonderful person. we're still waiting to hear all the names there could be others.

>> well, thank you very much for coming and talking to us. >> yes. thank you for honoring his memory. >> that does it for this hour. stay with cnn throughout the night for continuing live coverage of the shootdown of mh17. "cnn tonight" starts now. this is cnn breaking news. >> good evening, everyone. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. >> and i'm allison cammarata. >> thank you for joining us. first, the investigation of flight 17 shot out of the sky. you're looking at pictures from the crash site in ukraine where the sun is about to come up. we're the first network on the scene. and i must warn you that what cnn is finding there is very disturbing. bodies still lying in the field. wreckage and personal effects scattered for miles around. >> and the world demands answers and justice for the 298 people who were killed. we will learn more about them in the next two hours. and whatil