path? should this airspace, very quickly, should it have been changed? should they not have been in this flight path? >> it should have been changed, but it's the authorities, the government authorities that have to change it. i think the airline was just following what they always do. >> and they thought that being at 33,000 feet, they were going to be safe. >> right. but the countries knew that that had changed. the governments knew with the recent shootdowns. >> david, mary, richard, thank you very much. is cnn breaking news. >> hello, everyone. it is 11:00 p.m. on the east coast, and this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. you're going the look now at the site of the crash of flight 17 in ukraine. and we are the first network on the scene. and i really have to warn you that what cnn is finding there is very disturbing. bodies still lying in the field, wreckage and personal effects scattered for miles around. >> good evening, everyone. i'm alisyn camerota. meanwhile, the world demands answers and justice for the 298 people who died. if russia supplied the weaponry, what should the u.s. do and what

will the international response be? we will ask our experts about all that. but right now, let's get right to the crash scene because human remainspieces of the plane are still scattered across six square miles of farmland near this village in the rebel held area of ukraine. cnn's phil black is live for us at the scene. phil you are the only network correspondent there. tell what's you're seeing. >> as you can see behind me, what remains of malaysian airlines flight 17 is passengers, crew, their belongings and baggage. as you said, it is spread out over an incredibly wide landscape. the landscape is marred by big pieces of wreckage like the one behind me. it is marked more poignantly by the many white pieces of cloth tied to sticks driven into the ground. they mark the locations of the many bodies that are still yet to be collected. and there are many of them. these are people who before their moment of death had no --

no connection to the ongoing crisis and the violence here in ukraine. so it is dramatic. it is terrible the. it is still very much under the control of the pro-russian rebels here. there is a small emergency worker contingent that are beginning some sort of recovery effort. but what we are not seeing are the big numbers of highly qualified people that are needed at a disaster site just like this. in order to secure the site, recover those bodies properly with dignity, processing them, ensuring that the families get them back. and of course those needed, the people who would be needed to mount a sophisticated enough investigation to determine precisely what happened here. >> phil, we just talked to mary schiavo who said it would take a thousand people to do it adequately. can you tell what's your experience was like to get to that scene? >> it was pretty tough, because as i say, this is a war zone.

it is territory that is very much occupied by the pro-russian groups. a lot of checkpoints. they're heavily armed. we passed convoys of their military vehicles that they have acquired from armored personnel carriers to armored vehicles with missile batteries attached to them and so forth. regularly checked, at checkpoints. terrible roads accessing this location. it is very remote. and that's the other challenge. even in the event that the groups here decided to allow wider access to ukrainian authorities and groups for people to come in and really see what is going on here. actually mobilizing those forces, getting them to this very remote location would be very difficult and would take a great deal of time. so what we're saying is that after a day and a half, it will be two days soon. the scene here has not changed a great deal. it hasn't been secured. nothing has really been looked at very closely.

the bodies remain. and there is really no reason to believe that that scenario is going to be changing at any stage. certainly not over the next coming days. >> the challenges seem insurmountable at this point. phil black, thank you for that report. now let's bring in cnn's aviation correspondent richard quest again and military analyst lieutenant colonel rick francona. go ahead, richard. >> i think what you're going to see in the next few hours is sheer unmitigated anger. and it's going to come from those countries which have lost the largest number of people. it's going to come from the dutch in the netherlands, and it will come from australia. it's that pressure ultimately that will force a change or that will force something to come through. it may be the dutch that eventually have to lead a coalition to go in here and sort this out. >> because they lost 198. >> absolutely. but it's going to be anger that is going to drive this forward. >> the world is looking at us right now. what should the u.s. do? because officials say that the missile that shot down this

plane came from a russian made. >> i think it's pretty clear it came from the russian-made system. i think we have to figure out who supplied that system. we've heard a lot of speculation. did it come from a ukrainian stock or from the russians itself? i'm leaning towards the russians itself. it just make morse sense because you don't just pick one of these up and shoot it. you have to have training there is more russia involved in here than i think we're seeing. >> what makes this so sophisticated, this technology? >> well, this is a tracked vehicle. and it's carrying a radar. it's carrying a lot of electronics, a lot of communications gear. and it's meant to go across rough roads and rough terrain. you take any electronics and bounce it around like, that you need a lot of maintenance. you need people who are skilled to operate it. a u.s. army comparable system, we send u.s. army soldiers for 26 weeks to learn how to maintain and use the systems. so you don't just give this to a rebel group and say here, here is a weapon system for you. you need to provide the training that goes with it. >> richard, what do you think

when you see phil black there in that empty, empty field and he is virtually alone, and it seems as though, as he is saying, nothing will happen for the next few days. is this -- >> there is only one word. horror, horror. we're looking at the results of a heinous, wicked act. we talked earlier. we used the word enormity now. the true meaning of the word enormity is the graveness of the crime. and that's what you're looking at in ukraine in those fields. >> the new aude audio recording is obtained from cnn by ukrainian officials allegedly captures the rebels how they received the same type launcher from russia. let's listen in and then we'll discuss. [ speaking foreign language ]

>> when i saw that video, i think my reaction is listen, this could very well be legitimate. but it is really -- >> it's convenient. >> yes. >> not only this, the other recording right after the shoot-down, we get that first recording. then we get this recording. and we've talked about this. and then we had that video of the missile launcher being driven away. all this comes just is perfectly. >> but what does that mean? the fact that it's too convenient for your tastes. you mean the ukrainians are feeding this out to cover something up? >> i don't know. i'm saying it's convenient. i spent 28 years doing intelligence for a living. and it never works that easy. >> what we're looking at in many ways, this picture for example, if you saw this in a novel or a

film, you'd say it couldn't happen this way because real life is much messier than this. so i don't know whether it's genuine or not. and i take huge respect from the colonel's views with his experience. so i'm listening very closely to what you're saying, sir. >> but richard, we've been sitting here, and we covered 370, and you could not write that either. sometimes it's -- >> the pentagon did say they have no reason to dispute this. and, you know, i'm just saying it's convenient. >> we hear you. >> stick around, guys. we'll get back to you. thank you very much. among the 198 people who died on flight 17, a group headed to an international aids conference in australia. bill clinton reacted to that in an interview with cnn's anna coren. >> it's awful. i mean the -- those people are -- they're really in a way

martyrs to the cause that we're going to australia to talk about. and i think all i can say about it now is what president obama, what our government said. we need to wait to make any definitive statements until we know exactly what happened. but it was -- it was sickening. and i -- i hope they will know and i hope they will know soon. >> sickening. you know, one of those aides workers was glen thomas who worked for the world health organization. his friend victoria camerota joins us by television. victoria, i'm extremely sorry for your loss. how are you doing? >> good evening. i'm in a very sad moment. and you can imagine, you know, i'm devastated. still unbelievable to think glenn is not there anymore. he was a good friend, a great

colleague. and it's very hard. >> vittorio, when did you hear the dreaded news that your friend glenn thomas was indeed on that flight? >>. >> i actually heard it yesterday morning, my yesterday morning. i'm in pakistan. i knew he was traveling, but i didn't know exactly on which flight he was. and then in the morning i heard from my colleagues in geneva that he actually was on that flight. >> goodness. >> so it was a shocking news. and, you know, still is. still very hard to believe that he is not there anymore. we have worked together for over eight years. we shared an office. and glenn, you know, was a great colleague, a great professional. he was able to bring into work a special -- he had a special attitude towards life, you know. he was very smiley.

and always extremely positive. so it was a great experience working with him. >> you know, everyone has loved ones, right? and i'm wondering how they're doing. i understand that he leaves behind his partner claudio and his twin sister tracy. how is the family dealing with this? >> well, you know, i spoke to his family last night, and they're completely devastated. you know, it's -- it's hard to believe that you're flying and, you know, it happens what happened. we will know later what was the -- what are the real reason. but it's hard to believe that you're going there. the plane was flying as you said to the aids conference. he was going there for work. basically, you know, he gave his life to his profession. so it's very hard for all the

family. they're terribly devastated. >> and we can hear it in your voice and we feel for you. visitor you cammarota. take care of yourself. >> thank you. >> another person lost was caroline kaiser, a champion rower and a chemistry student at indiana university. joining me by phone is her former roommate rachel wiigler. rachel, thank you for joining us. how are you doing this evening? >> well, as well as can be expected. >> you were roommates and good friends at karlijn at university. is that correct? how did you hear about this accident? >> yes, karlijn were roommates when i moved to bloomington to take a job and she was in her third year working on her degree in chemistry. i was at work yesterday when the

news came on that simply said that the malaysian airlines flight had gone down and then shortly thereafter i saw that the flight was out of amsterdam. and that, you know, you kind of have that moment that you feel like something really bad has happened. i knew karlijn was going to be traveling. she was going on holiday with her boyfriend lawrence to indonesia to visit friends. so i went straight to facebook and pulled up her facebook page, and, you know, the first thing on this was a picture of her and laurence at the airport that morning. and then right above that was karlijn's sister posted about it simply said karliyn and laurence

were in line for the 12:00 p.m. malaysian flight. we don't have any additional information. and that was it. and your heart just sinks into your -- into your stomach. that it was devastating. >> i can't even imagine. you know, there are many people watching. and i'm sure you want to pay tribute to your friend. what was she like? tell us about her. >> you know, you can't -- the moment you mention karijn to any of her friends to anybody who knew her, they automatically smile. you can't talk about karlijn and not smile. she was -- she was a light to everybody she knew. she was always happy. we would sit and drink a glass of wine and eat cheese and just

talk about how great it was to be alive and in love and happy. and she was beautiful and smart and funny. and she was a 100% genuine friend. you know, she always told you what you needed to hear, not what you wanted to hear. but you never doubted that she cared about her friends and her family, was a huge part of her life as well. when she was this the states, she was skyping with her mom and dad and her sister every day. so i can't even imagine how devastated they are right now. >> well, i have to tell you again that i'm really sorry for your loss and for the family as well. if we can do anything, please let us know. it sounds like she and i could have been good friends. what you needed to hear instead

of what you wanted to hear. thank you very much, rachel. >> my pleasure. >> there are 298 of those stories. >> 25 years old. >> and so beautiful. it's really nice to see the pictures and to hear her friend remember her. >> it's hard to do that. sometimes you don't know what to say. i hate to even ask the questions. sometimes i think it helps to get it out and talk about it. >> i agree. they want to tell the story of the people they've lost. we'll be back with much more. am. my social circle includes captains of industry, former secretaries of state, oil tycoons, and ambassadors of countries known for their fine cheeses. yes i am rich. that's why i drink the champagne of beers. ♪

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don lemon back with alisyn camerota on cnn. in the wake of the crash of flight 17, the world is watching vladimir putin and debating what to do now if russia did indeed provide the weapons that brought down that plane. cnn foreign affairs correspondent elise lavette has

more. >> reporter: even as the investigation gets under way, the united states is laying out the case. russia's support for rebels in eastern ukraine is at the root of this tragedy. >> while it may take some time to firmly establish who shot down a plane filled with innocents, most cabinet members and international community have been warning for months about the devastation that would come if russia did not stop what it started, if it did not rein in what it unleashed. >> reporter: with casualties from about a dozen nation, the shoot-down of flight 17 has turned ukraine into an international crisis. the prime minister of australia, which lost 28 citizens, says moscow is fueling it. >> the idea that russia can somehow say that none of this has anything to do with them because it happened in ukrainian airspace frankly does not stand up to any serious scrutiny. >> reporter: will international outage be a tipping point, forcing putin to rethink his backing for the separatists?

>> i think by really creating this monster in eastern ukraine, unleashing this hybrid war and destabilizing the country, i think probably russia has taken on more than it realized it would. and this has now gotten out of control. >> reporter: that says president obama leaves putin with a choice. >> he and the russian government have to make a strategic decision. are they going to continue to support violent separatists whose intent is to undermine the government of ukraine, or are they prepared to work with the government of ukraine to arrive at a ceasefire and a peace that takes into account the interests of all ukrainians? >> reporter: the malaysia airlines tragedy could be a wake-up call for reluctant europeans to get behind a u.s. plan to strengthen sanctions against russia. the question, though, will that force putin to back down or make him even more determined? >> they maybe will ramp it down a bit.

but i think the russian goal remains to make it very difficult for this new ukrainian government to function as an effective government. and have control over its own territory. >> and of course that was cnn's elise lavette. she is with us along with bill richardson, former governor of new mexico and ambassador, and james woolsey. i apologize for calling you woolsey before. and then stephen cohen, the professor emeritus of russian studies at princeton and nyu. >> mr. woolsey, let's start with you. you were theying you think that putin doesn't care if this is an international crisis now. is there any way to make him care? >> i think there is. the sanctions aren't working. our sanctions are quite modest, and the european sanctions are virtually nonexistent. but we can try something new. natural gas is now about five times cheaper than oil. so material that is made out of natural gas, let's say the

liquid like methanol to drive cars on will be substantially cheaper than gasoline. by a recent m.i.t. study, it would be about a third cheaper. if you can reduce people's driving costs by 33% all over the world per mile, and do it at the same time you're driving the price of oil down to let's say 60, $70 a barrel, mr. putin has some very serious problems. because he exists, his dictatorship exists basically on oil and gas. gas is complicated, but oil is a pure cash cow for him. he is taking it out of your pocket and mine in order for us to be need to drive a third more expensively than we need to, and in order for him not to have an economy that makes any useful. all he really does is pump oil and gas. and if we can get a much better

price for that oil all over the world, in the worldwide oil market, we could make mr. putin i think -- we could get his attention. >> there you go. elise, that the answer to getting putin's attention if the downing of 298 innocent civilians isn't? >> well, i think it's going to be a whole range of things. i think it's going to be not only on the economic front and you see that if this could go two ways. he could increase his cooperation with the investigation in this bid for ukraine, or he could face international isolation. and it's not just economic. is he going to see nato encircle him and support some of the members more. we've seen some moves in poland and other countries. but if nato starts encircling eastern europe and making it very uncomfortable for him to take over these designs on some of these other territories that he has looked at, i think that that would make it very difficult. and i do -- i do think that president putin does care in some ways about international

opinion. i think if he finds himself really isolated from the whole international community as he did so today at the united nations, i think ultimately that would bother him. but it is true that it would be in the pocketbook. and that's not just on the energy sector. that's on a defense sector there is a big timber industry in russia. and there is also the financial sector, which the u.s. and the europeans are starting to hit. >> stephen, i want to ask you this, because i'm going to get to your article. i'm reading something here that says it may take month, even years, but putin's recklessness is bound to catch up to him. when it does, the do you think of mh17 may be seen as the beginning of his undoing. that's from business week, a writer from business week. your article in "the nation" is kiev's atrocities and the silence of the hawks. the question is how will the rest of the world be allied against russia or putin or you don't see it that way? >> there is two problems here. i'll repeat what i said before. a war has been going on in ukraine against the eastern cities by the government we

support in kiev that is unreported here. that's the other half of this equation. >> what do you mean -- say again? >> the kiev government. >> which we support, which came to power illegally when it deposed the elected president in february, as you remember, we backed it. and that government has been bombing the cities of eastern ukraine which are predominantly russian-speaking cities and which have looked to putin for protection. that's the backdrop to the shooting down of this airliner. >> okay. >> but let's go to something else. we sit here and we talking about isolating putin internationally. and that has been president obama's policy. they said obama, what are you going to do about putin? he said we're going to isolate him internationally. nice job. putin was just in latin america. he was at a brics. meeting. 400 billion people were represented there, and they were lined up to sign contracts with the russians. this is before the shoot-down. the shoot-down is going to have an impact. but when we talk about the international community, we're talking about the united states and its nato allies.

we're not talking about china, india, many countries in the middle east, several countries in latin america. if you're really going to talk internationally, putin cares enormously about international opinion. and he is even a european man. he is a fluent german speaker. he had a brilliant relationship with the chancellor of germany. this may spoil that. but he cares about international affairs, but he doesn't define the world the way we do as the united states and western europe. >> governor richardson, what do you think is the answer to getting putin's attention? >> well, i do agree with the energy side. as a former energy secretary, i traveled that region. i think what the u.s. can do, which is another one of your questions, is allow the export of american natural gas and petroleum which you can't do now to countries in eastern europe, the nato countries that recently joined, europe, lng terminals that would not make europe and

eastern europe so dependent on russian natural gas. secondly, i would put some of our missile systems in poland, get that going again. and i think the community in europe would welcome that. but third, i think the united nations, i was u.n. ambassador. i think this has got to be a forum on this issue that just happened. this tragedy of unspeakable proportions. the issue of public opinion, condemnation of what has happened. and again, we have to get the facts. some credible entity has to say this is what happened. and that hasn't happened yet. >> well, it's a challenge. it's obviously very hard to get to the crash site, as our correspondent has shown us. stand by, everyone, please, because we have more questions for you. could this escalate? and what can nato do as governor richardson was just talking about. we'll explore that more when we come right back.

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the goebel stage do, you think the president has looked ineffective? is that a fair assessment about his reaction to this, and also before with crimea? >> well, one opinion is if obama had been tough with putin in syria or crimea, this ukrainian thing would have ended. i think that's wrong. my view is that american policy toward ukraine and that part of the world in general and specifically russia has been unwise for 20 years. and it's now led almost into the crisis. he continued the policy. the policy has as its peerhead pushing nato towards russia's a borders along with missile defense as bill richardson mentioned, and eventually to taking in ukraine that was the whole plan. and it's come to this. by the way, there is a ray of light. can i give you the one ray of light? >> of course. >> everybody know what's the negotiating points are on all sides. everybody knows what it is. we don't have to go into it.

they've been talking about it for months. >> right. >> today the rebels, we don't know which group of rebels, because as chris cuomo reported there are several groups. that they want to declare a humanitarian ceasefire so that the wreckage of the plane can be properly attended to. if kiev says okay, we agree, we will have a ceasefire tomorrow. and if they have a ceasefire tomorrow, the diplomats will start talking, and they already know what to talk about in to end this crisis, because the alternative is a terrible cold war and maybe a hot war. >> governor richardson, you have been a diplomat. what do you think of that scenario? >> well, i agree with professor cohen that the u.s.-russia relationship is very important. nonetheless, it has not gone well. i do think we're at a very critical stage where in the remaining years of the obama administration, is it going to be mended or get better? i have my real doubts.

but i think we've got to deal with the situation at hand. and i do think putin listens. he has been hit by sanctions. we announced economic sanctions, limited, right before this tragedy happened. the potential of additional sanctions could happen not just sector by sector by the u.s., but i think a key player here is germany. if angela merkel, who is a leader in the european union, a major player in their commercial and trade with russia, steps up sanctions on russia, should this impasse on this tragedy continue? i think it's going to make a big difference. but what we also need to note is we now have 11 countries that are going to be including france, including britain, including australia, including the dutch that are severely affected by this. there is going to be intensive pressure for the international

community to act. and this is why i think president putin needs to seize the moment and realize that he can't forget about what happened. he can't put it under the rug. >> and also there is going to be pressure too from families who are seeking justice in this. >> absolutely. >> because there are so many lives lost, james. so many country, including one american. how do the victims' families pursue justice, especially if it's in a war, it was shot down. how do they pursue justice? >> they can try through the international court system. but this is not going to affect putin's behavior. putin thinks he has our number. he has been dealt with very, very flas sidly by president obama. and i think that probably feels like he has a bit of the problem here. this aircraft got shut down. he'll make a little bit of nice here and there and turn things into other directions to look at.

he does not worry what we think or do anymore. >> this is not a big enough problem to make him change his way? >> it's a big problem for the people who died and their friends and relatives. and it's a big problem in terms of international enormous. but for him it's something that i think he will over the course of the next few weeks brush aside. he can veto anything that comes at him from the security council, of course. and i just think it would be nice if the expectations that he is going to listen to the west, listen to us, become a changed man, it would be nice if those things occurred. i think the chances are very, very low. >> elise, you know how this goes. i'm sorry to cut you short here. war crime? >> i think war crime is a very specific definition of the laws of war. certainly some people might see this as a terrorist attack. and the question is what happens down the line. does the u.s. start to consider,

does the international community start to consider these groups a terrorist organization and thus with russian support for these groups, does russia even become a state sponsor of terrorism? i think president putin is going to start to maybe rethink his support for the rebels. i think this might be getting a little out of hand, and i don't think this was his plan a, so to speak. >> elise, gentlemen, thank you so much for all of your insights. >> when we come right back, investigating the crash of flight 17 is no easy task. and it's made that much more difficult in the middle of a war zone. we're going to talk about that with our experts. are you sure we should take this billboard down? people find out state farm does car loans as well as they do insurance, our bank is through. good point. grab an edge. look there's two guys on the state farm borrow better banking sign. nope for real there's two dudes on the state farm borrow better banking sign. [ reporter ] breaking news from the state farm borrow better banking sign... we're seeing two men that have climbed the borrow better banking sign gentlemen please get down from the state farm borrow better banking sign.

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welcome back, everyone. investigators have a tough task ahead of them when they reach the crash site. joining me now is david soucie, cnn's safety analyst and author of "why planes crash." and mary schiavo, former inspector general. she is now an attorney for victims of mass transit. welcome, everyone. >> mark, i want to start with you. i don't have to remind everyone that this is malaysian air's second tragedy in the past few months. can they survive this? >> i think having been involved with a number of air carriers who have gone through multiple accidents, it takes a tremendous toll on the company, on the employees, on the families. i think clearly we have a compounded by the fact that they're still dealing with malaysia 370. and i think time is going to tell whether or not they can in fact survive it. not just as a business, but also as an institution.

>> i want to get back to that crash scene. can we for a moment? it's just unimaginable. and as you pointed out, alisyn, it's so eerie because it's so quiet. but then they're right there on the plane. what are we looking at? >> well, it's interesting, because we've talked about this a lot, that this 150-pound payload from the missile taking down this huge aircraft. and even missile experts are saying that's really not how that missile is designed to work. it's for smaller aircraft. it explodes, it launches shrapnel at it and it will disable the aircraft where it will have to crash land. but to take it out of the air immediately at 480 miles an hour. >> but that big chunk. >> what we're looking at here is this is the back of the aircraft. this is what that little actuator, the silver actuator in the picture where we're looking through the square hole right there, what that is the horizontal stabilizer actuator. so the back of the airport. that's the plane in the back of the airplane, the tail of the aircraft which controls the up

and down of the airplane and also the rudder is in that area. so this explains so much to me. because if the missile did impact right there at that spot, which by looking at this it did, it would have taken the whole tail of the aircraft off, which would have pitched the aircraft down immediately. >> mary? >> what do you see when you look at this aftermath? >> the same thing. it's very similar to kal 007. the missile didn't hit the plane. it exploded very close to the plane and took out the controls. even after that missile exploded at the shoot-down on that plane, they had both engines functioning and a little bit of cockpit voice recording after that. i think david might have hit it. >> mark, i want to ask you this. let's talk a little about the investigation too that are going to be going on for malaysian airlines. how do they deal with an investigation in a foreign country. it's different, quite different than on american soil. >> well, it's significantly

different in two respects. one is we're dealing with an investigation in a hostile area. a number of years ago, there was an accident outside saigon during the final days of war. and the investigators had to be flown in during laylight hours only and they had heavy security while they conducted the investigation and then they were flown out before it became dark. i think we're dealing with a similar situation in the sense that we have hostile forces. we have control of the situation in their hands and the investigators are pretty much at the mercy of those forces. in terms of the investigation itself, i think we've had a number of references to the annex 13, icao annex 13 and the way the investigation is structured. from that perspective, it's likely that the investigation is going to in fact proceed under icao annex 13, led by the ukrainians, although certainly they have reached out and indicated they'd like it to be an international investigation.

i think it's more likely than not in this situation that we will in fact ultimately see an international investigation with participation by a number of countries. >> mary, beyond the people who launched the missile, is anyone else at fault here? will the families be able to seek any recourse because this was a dangerous zone that the plane was flying over? >> well, that would depend on the facts that come out in days. hopefully we'll get some facts in the days and months ahead, and it will depend on what was known. was the a airplanes blocking the correct code? was there any attempts to communicate? was it the right place where it was supposed to be? was it the right altitude? if it didn't do anything wrong, the families will have a difficult time proving liability. >> we need the black boxes to answer all the things you just posed, don't we? >> no,s no necessarily. you can reconstruct a lot of that evidence from different radar tracings, from information simply reports of what people have seen. if they don't get the black

boxes, they will be able to proceed with the investigation and certainly find a multitude of facts, but the black boxes help. >> six square mile area. is that standard? >> a breakup at about 30,000 feet would be that or larger, actually. >> all right. stay with us, everyone. stay right here. up next, the families of those on board demand answers from malaysian airlines. we'll be right back. amamamamamamamamamamamamamam ri. my social circle includes captains of industry, former secretaries of state, oil tycoons, and ambassadors of countries known for their fine cheeses. yes i am rich. that's why i drink the champagne of beers. of swedish experience in insidperfecting the rich,ars never bitter taste of gevalia. we do it all for this very experience. [woman] that's good. i know right? gevalia. really... so our business can be on at&t's network for $175 dollars a month?

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for the families of those on board flight 17. back with david soucie, mary schiavo and madombroff. >> mark, where do the families go? >> there are obvious differences with respect to malaysia 370 and this one. that one there are lots of unanswered questions already. this one we know that the aircraft, it appears we know the aircraft was brought down by a missile. the airline, any airline has a contract with its passengers to deliver them from point a to point b safely. if they breech that contractor are any reason at fault, there is an international convention for essentially $150,000 plus in united states.

over and above that in this instance, since the international convention provides that if the cause of the accident with the actions of a third party, there can be no greater recovery than that 150,000 plus against the airline. malaysia airlines it certainly would appear would be limited to that contractual number. obviously, somebody, some creative folks, lawyers can sue the manufacturers. there is no basis to believe the manufacturers did anything wrong. quite frankly, there is no basis to believe that malaysia airlines did anything wrong. i think the obvious people to go after are the wrongdoers here, whether it's the russians, whether it's the separatist, whomever it may be. obviously there there are problems as well. there is sovereign immunity with respect to the russian government, and the separatists, whether or not they're an organization is problematic. >> but how do you do that when you're going after a, you know, a rebel group? >> well, because the united

states has anti-terrorist statutes. if the group is a terrorist group, you can bring actions against them. but you're not really aiming for them, you're aiming for their bank accounts. obviously somebody is funding them. look at the equipment they have. so what you do is go after the terrorists and their funders. >> so i want to ask you. when you fly sometimes it will stay say, for example, delta, northwest, they didn't have anything to do with this. it's called code sharing, correct? >> right. >> what does it have to do, anything to do with compensation or with taking responsibility or some exposure to both? >> it can. i'll use a real skpl. >> this was code shared. >> it just means you bought your ticket on one airline and you're flying on another. and often a liability is extended to both airlines. if you bought your ticket on one and fly on another, in some circumstances, both airlines will share liability to pay the damages. >> and you also think that ukraine could have done more to alert airlines not to fly in this region? >> certainly they could have. they already had a restriction of 21,000 feet. they expanded it to 32,000 feet.

why they didn't go more after they had -- that was done before they had three or four aircraft shot down in that region. so the notice to airmen system, which is icao -- >> they just shot one down that morning. >> right. so with that activity, ukraine should have been more responsive about reporting. there is a digital system since the systems are out to the pilots, the airlines, everyone who might be flying in that airline. >> did it take malaysian airlines a long time to release the passenger manifest? it seems like we waited longer with malaysian airlines in this one. >> long were malaysian airlines? >> yes. we're waiting to find out about the passengers. it seemed it look longer. >> you mean with 370? >> well, with this one. >> i don't think it was extraordinary. they make efforts to try to reach them first before they just send it out. you don't want to find an like malaysia 370. >> interesting to me, all of us

having lived through it here, it feels to me, even though this is a war zone that information coming quicker, you know, we don't have the information. >> we have an airplane. >> no, no, information from malaysian airlines. >> oh, i see. >> from the representatives is what i mean. >> that's a good point. >> i do think they learned some lessons. and they learned that secrecy is not the way to go when you're trying to deal with an international air crisis that seemed to be their modus operandi for 370. >> we're getting lists of names and we're talking to family members already. >> and they're experienced at how to handle them, yes. >> we'll be right back, everyone. k you daddy for defending our country. thank you for your sacrifice and thank you for your bravery. thank you colonel. thank you daddy. military families are uniquely thankful for many things, the legacy of usaa auto insurance can be one of them. if you're a current or former military member or their family, get an auto insurance quote and see why 92% of our members plan to stay for life.

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and we're back with our experts. mark dombroff, can you give us your final thoughts on this? >> sure. i think that within the next 24 hours we've got to see some order brought to the scene for the benefit of the families and the victims, and we have to see some direction with respect to the investigation itself. we haven't seen either one of those yet. >> david soucie? >> we need to see an official delegation in accordance with icao rules, taking responsibility of the investigation out of ukraine's hands and into the international. >> mary? >> i go one step further. these are victims of a heinous crime. and if they don't respond soon to recover their remains, the civil nations of the world will offer military and police support. >> it sounds like you guys are all talking order and organization. >> but there's not much indication that will be happening in the next 24 to 48 hours. >> it's so good to have all of you here. and it's especially good to have

you here alisyn camerota, and i really enjoyed being with you. >> great to work with you. >> we're enjoying the new format and we're enjoying it as well. i wish it was a happier story we were covering. thanks for joining us. cnn's coverage of the shooting of the downed malaysia airlines flight 17 continues. i'm don lemon. >> i'm alisyn camerota. thank you so much for joining us. have a good night. >> who shot the passenger plane out of the sky? cnn is at the crash site. >> and we look at the lives of those on board the plane from children to renowned aids researchers?