tv Forensic Files CNN July 19, 2014 12:00am-12:31am PDT
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hello, everyone. it's been nearly two days since malaysian flight 17 was shot down if ukraine. and the crash site is still not secure. the victims' bodies, we understand, have begun to decompose in the summer heat. international outrage is directed at russia and its president, vladimir putin. how moscow is reacting later
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this hour. and malaysian investigators have arrived in kiev to start piecing together what happened. meanwhile, this is a human story at its heart. the families of the 298 people on board are in mourning this day. the tributes to their loved ones. hello and welcome, i'm hala gorani and this is our continuing coverage of flight mh17. it is now 10 a.m. in eastern ukraine, where international monitors say they will try again to visit the site where malaysia airlines flight 17 crashed. the team for organization security cooperation in europe, osce, tried to visit the crash for just over an hour on friday, but they say they were met with hostility from the separatists
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there and not given full access. american officials say they believe the plane was brought down by a missile, possibly fired by pro-russian rebels, most likely with backing from russia. all this is still being established. meanwhile, a team of special investigators from malaysia has arrived in ukraine's capital, kiev, hoping to begin the process of finding out what happened to their commercial airliner. now, a freelance journalist spent today traveling to the crash site in eastern ukraine and joining me now live on the phone. what do we know first of all, and this has been one of the big questions, the crash site not fully accessible to crash investigators from the osce? who has the black boxes, the data recorders, do we know? >> i don't think we know yet who has the black boxes. i can tell you yesterday when we were at the site, and we're heading there again this morning, you know, journalists,
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locals, anyone was sort of able to wander around the bodies on their -- on the place where the fuselage has sort of scorched the earth there. and there was sort of -- there was no regulation about it. but when the osce group got,there they all of a sudden created some sort of zone around it and wouldn't let them, you know, get past points. so, there is some question about what may have already been taken from it or what had already been touched, which would have hindered the investigation. >> and also as far as families are concerned, one could only imagine their anguish, knowing their loved ones are still presumably in that open field. i mean, when do we know will the process of collecting, of preserving the bodies of the victims of this crash, when will all of this begin? >> that's also an unknown question. it is sort of a heart-breaking
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situation, when you see -- not to be graphic, but when you see these bodies lying there and you just think, you know, they're somebody's relative, someone's loved one. when it's going to start is still unknown. we heard today the ukrainian government has made some kind of agreement possibly with the pro-russia separatists to sort of cordon the area off so they can get -- we had conflicting reports yesterday from the rebel leaders and also from -- so, it's still up in the air. it's kind of getting to a critical situation, obviously. >> right. thanks very much. we'll reconnect you once you reach the site. once again, there in eastern ukraine. as far as the government of kiev is concerned, it is accusing russia of trying to cover up its role in the attack. it says russia supplied some of the weaponry used to take the
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plane down and that pro-russia separatists in east ukraine are responsible. it has said that from early on. nic robertson is live in kiev with more. so, nic, let's talk a little about what kiev is saying and backing up also with recordings that it released pretty early on after this plane was shot out of the sky there. what is the latest from kiev? >> reporter: the latest they continue to say this was the action of pro-russian rebels in the east of the country, that they had the buk surface-to-aramsurface-to-air missi missile. they have video though say showing that with one launcher missing being driven from russia back into ukraine. they say russia supplied the weaponry. that people continues to come across and support the rebels
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from russia. they released the audio recordings they say between pro-russian rebels and what the government describes as their russian handlers, describing what they -- what they think they've shot down is a military aircraft, but then somebody -- one of the pro-russian rebels getting to the site on the telephone describing no military equipment on the ground in the debris, but rather civilians and suitcases and holiday belongings. these are the basis, the strong basis for the government's claim that it can show, and it shows they will, that it was these pro-russian rebels who shot down the flight. they obviously said in the last few days as well as, two russian, two ukrainian military aircraft, a transport aircraft and fighter jet have been shot down in the same area. so, there is a body of evidence they're putting forward we can't substantiate. the obama administration, the white house, however, is saying they believe, from the
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information they have, it was shot down by a surface-to-air missile system, in rebel territory, and they believe that weaponry did come across the border from russia into eastern ukraine. it's the area controlled by the rebels. the evidence is mounting up at the moment, hala. >> so, all that being said, how does that impact the situation on the ground? the military confrontation between the kiev government and those pro-russia rebels in the east and potentially russia's role in all this and the u.s. weighing in? i mean, this is taking it to another level here, nic. >> reporter: precisely. it's heightening the tensions on the ground. why? because the stakes have become higher. who was responsible is obviously going to determine where the weight of international opinion lies. at the moment, it lies toward the direction of applying pressure to russia to stop supporting the rebels, the pro-russian rebels.
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it's also coming in the weight of pushing for a cease-fire in the area around where the debris is lying so that international investigators can get there. there are 131, a sizeable number of investigators, have arrived from different government agencies, and malaysia have arrived on a charter flight within the last few hours with the task of getting to that area. so this now growing issue over who was responsible for shooting it down is leading to higher tension on the ground. the black boxes are not in the control of the ukrainian authorities, they say, at this time. those are key in the investigation. the governments are alleging that the evidence is being smuggle out of the country or destroyed for who was responsible. obviously, that then leads to a time factor. not just of recovering the bodies, but also of determining the facts before they're destroyed on the ground. all of that points to an escalation and tensions when
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what is actually required for investigators is a de-escalation of tension so they can get safe and complete access to the site, hala. >> nic robertson, thanks very much, live in kiev. we will speak with nic again, of course, in the coming hours on the very latest from the ukrainian capital. david deese, a former spokesperson from department of transport in the uk and he's live in the studio with us. thank you very much for being with us. you've heard all these reports that the crash site is not secure, that some of those pro-russian rebels are not allowing full access, that bodies, tragically, are still strewn across an open field. what happens now? how can you perform an investigation? >> it's extremely difficult. i think the investigators are faced with an unprecedented situation where you have a civilian aircraft, which appears to have been brought down in what is, in effect, a war zone. and it's not just a military war zone, but a propaganda war zone.
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so, you're getting claims and counterclaims flying all over the place. it's very cdifficult to know which story is the truth. and that is what the investigators are there to try and find out. they will obviously want to try and confirm one way or the other whether this aircraft was, in fact, shot down. >> we don't even know the flight data recorders, who's in possession of them. we don't know how close to the wreckage -- i mean, we know a team from the osce was met with some hostility. they were able to circle around some of the areas but not all of them. where does that leave the investigation? >> normally the -- in most countries, an accident site would be sterile, sealed off by law enforcement, so nobody would be walking around like you see in pictures here -- >> over the fuselage. >> yes, reporters, local people wandering around. there's even been reports of people looting. also raises more questions than
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answers. one person wondering why there's a pile of passports all together. i mean, how did that happen? almost makes someone feel it's been staged. but from the point of view of the investigation, all these investigators need to get in to the site and hoping it hasn't been disturbed more than it already has been by people climbing around and possibly removing stuff, whether it's souvenirs or stuff to sell or wanting to cover something up. we just don't know. >> now, moving around things like passports, perhaps carry-on luggage, and as we were mentioning, tragically, the bodies of those who were the victims of this crash is one thing, but what about determining whether or not a missile brought this plane down and who fired this missile? i mean, that's still going to be possible, right? >> it should be, as long as -- well, it will be possible because even if bits and pieces are taken away, it won't be completely possibly to hide.
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one of two missiles, one that entered the fuselage of the aircraft and exploded inside. the other would be something that exploded outside and sprayed shrapnel, which then punctured the fuselage, explosive decompression. it would be helpful to know from that which type of missile it was. lessons can be learned for future construction of aircraft which might reduce this sort of risk. that's the main thrust of the investigation. they want to know why it happened. they also want to learn lessons from it. >> also the big lesson here is, can we fly a plane -- i mean, obviously we can't in a particular case such as the conflict over eastern ukraine, but over the years, planes have flown at over 33,000 feet over conflict zones. >> yeah. >> but this is changing this calculus entirely for ordinary passengers. >> as we say, it's a completely new situation that people find themselves in. i think something like 300
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flights a day normally travel over ukraine. they don't go over the actual war zone, they are near to it. but this happens all the time. the main routes between europe and the far east, southeast asia, even australia and new zealand, the main route crosses over the ukraine. it then goes over parts of afghanistan, pakistan, right down over the bay of bengal. >> many flights over syria, as my colleagues know, as we've flown -- >> you go down to the gulf, all the flights down to dubai, qatar, all these places you're going across potentially unstable areas. >> i suppose people are going to maybe start thinking twice about that. >> it tends to -- in previous major axe deputies there is a sort of immediate result, but after a month or two, people just say, well, i've got to go anyway. >> david dechas, thanks for joining us on cnn with your expertise. coming up after the break
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welcome back. close to 300 people lost their lives on malaysian flight mh17. with each one there is a special story. we would like to take you the time to tell about you a few. quinn lucas schansman. there are images on your screen. he was studying business in amsterdam. he loved soccer. a friend says he was the kind of guy who stuck up for you, made you laugh when you were not feeling great about things.
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karlijn keijzer, was a champion rower and her friends say she was passionate about it. she and her boyfriend were traveling together on mh17. nick norris, western australian, was traveling with three of his grandchildren, 3 of 80 children on that flight. he was bringing them home for the new school year. his family says nick loved his grandkids, loved sailing and looked forward to sailing with them in the waters off perth. joep lange was one of several aids researchers headed to a conference. another remembers him as an extraordinary leader, scientist and humanitarian who fought ceaselessly for the dignity of
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all the people infected with hiv/aids throughout the world. well, the international aids society has confirmed that at least six people on board flight 17 were delegates traveling to an aids conference. the conference is scheduled to start in melbourne this weekend. the president of the international aids society says the conference will go on despite the tragedy and it will be dedicated to the victims. >> the extend of our loss is hard to comprehend and express. our colleagues were traveling because of their dedication to bringing an end to aids. we will honor their commitment and keep them in our hearts as we begin our program on sunday. >> australia is mourning the loss of its citizens on board flight 17. more than 20 of the victims were
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australian. the prime minister of australia, tony abbott, is echoing the call for a thorough investigation. >> 298 innocent people have been killed. people who had no part in any conflict in europe, people who were simply living their lives. now, their lives have been snuffed out in the most horrific way. and that's why this investigation needs to go ahead and this is why the standing of all parties will, in the end, be determined by the foreigners and the completeness of their -- of their cooperation with this investigation. >> well, the crash has torn one particular australian family apart. we have the story of three children and their grandfather that we referenced just a few minutes ago. all of whom died in this disaster.
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>> reporter: the parents of these three young faces are dealing with an unimaginable grief. mo. v , evie and otis were among those killed on flight 17. they were home with their grandfather, nick norris, four of the 80 australians who would never return oem home. >> beautiful, beautiful, clever, beautiful kids. >> reporter: in a shocking twist of fate, the children's parents had decided to stay in amsterdam a few more days. >> my heart is with my sister. >> reporter: before boarding the plane, nick norris joked about flying malaysian airlines, never dreaming this boeing 777 would also perish. >> i spoke to him just before he caught the plane to find out when he was leaving. and told him i loved him and
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told him i'd see him when he got back. >> reporter: sister phihomene tiernan was returning from a sabbatical. students where she thought find it hard to comprehend. >> she was a good friend. the shock has inincredible. >> reporter: another terrible twist of fate, kayly mann has lost relatives in both malaysia airlines tragedies. her brother and his wife died on flight mh370. her stepdaughter was on mh17. >> after the break, we'll update you on the latest developments, of course, on the flight as we continue our developing coverage on mh17. in the middle east as well, a close-up view of the innocent families caught up in the cross-fire of israel's military incursion.
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netanyahu, who says his military is prepared to further expand its offensive in gaza. mr. netanyahu did not say what would trigger another escalation in the campaign against hamas militants. israel's ground offensive is entering its third day with tanks and soldiers backed up by aerial and naval support. the military says it is targeting tunnels used by hamas to smuggle weapons. and in the process, parts of gaza are being reduced to rubble. palestinian officials say more than 300 gaza residents have now been killed in the latest round of violence. many of them civilian. many of them children. as we were mentioning, the kids are the ones who are falling victim to all of this in many cases. our karl penhaul is in gaza. his report contains some images you may find disturbing as he tells us about the price ordinary civilians are paying.
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>> reporter: a soft plea, daddy, don't leave me. muhammad is only 3. he's never picked a fight in his life, so he can't understand why he's being punished. just go ahead and tell the world my son was firing rockets as tel aviv or jerusalem, his father says. words loaded with irony and anger. he says an israeli missile slammed into their home in eastern gaza just before dawn. cnn team saw that neighborhood under heavy bombardment as israel launched its ground invasion. this was the gaza skyline through the night, ablaze with bombs and artillery fire. prime minister benjamin netanyahu accuses militants of using civilians as human
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shields. but the united nations estimates more than 70% of the casualties are innocent civilians. the ground operation is creating the worse situation in gaza from humanitarian and medical standpoint. we have hundreds of people going to hospitals in just the last 24 hours, he says. on thursday afternoon cnn cameras recorded this. three youngsters were killed in a strike less than five minutes earlier on that same house. we went to their funerals. this high school student survived. his younger brother and sister died at his side. we met him at the hospital friday. we were playing on the roof and i went to feed the pigeons. they hit the roof. the others were playing while i was feeding the pigeons, he
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says. back at bedside with muhammad, back in daddy's arms. his 1-year-old daughter pock marked by shrapnel. he gives his baby girl a hug. he has the harrowed stare of a father who knows he can no longer protect his family. karl penhaul, cnn, gaza. >> well, the united nations relief in works agency is appealing for $60 million in aid for victims of fighting in gaza. we're joined live by spokesman for relief agency. christopher, thanks for being with us. >> my pleasure. >> first of all, tell us about the situation in gaza based on those u.n. workers you've been able to speak with there. what is going on now? i know we spoke a few days ago. has it gotten worse? >> well, just in the last few minutes we're getting news the
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number of displaced people seeking sanctuary, the desperate, need y sick, dying, elderly, children as we just heard in your report, women and other civilians, the number of those desperate people coming for safe sanctuary has rose to 50,000. that's a huge number. an influx of 25,000 in the past 24 hours. unrwa is doing all it can. let me stress, as you mentioned in your introduction, we have launched this appeal for $60 million. and make no mistake about it, we are on the edge financially because as the world has seen, unrwa is leading the international response as we deal with these displaced people. this appeal is absolutely vital. it's absolutely vital that any governments listening to this interview step forward and fund this flash appeal. we will run out of mattresses.
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we will run out of essential supplies very, very soon. unless governments step forward and fund this work. we are leading the international response to this -- to the displaced and we need cash. i'm sorry to make this appeal, but it's extremely important because as we speak, tens of thousands of people are reliant on the provisions we're giving to them. we have 13,000 dedicated staff in gaza. we're the owldest, the largest u.n. relief agency there. we have a proven track record and we desperately need these funds. >> let's talk a little about the infrastructure because we've been hearing that water is an issue, electricity is out many hours during the day as well. so, ordinary life even for people not seeking shelter -- even for people who are not displaced right now and in need of your direct assistance at
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unrwa, are having a hard time of it right now. >> absolutely right. you make a very good point. the back drop against which you must see this emergency work that unrwa is doing for 50,000 people in 43 of our installations we've made available, is absolutely despera desperate. we have seen the public infrastructure, water, being damaged, pipes that are taking water to the installations. we've seen electricity being damaged. electricity installations being damaged and destroyed. even before this terrible upsurge in violence we had seen 95% of gaza without 95% of the water in gaza not safe to drink. millions of liters of raw sewage flowing into the sea every day. we estimated just a few days ago in the u.n. that there were 25,000 children to
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