stay safe to yourself and your crew as well. there's a lot of important news this morning. and we're bringing it to you as it happens. so grateful to have your company. >> the next hour of "new day" starts now. all right. it's 6:00 exactly on a saturday morning. i'm christi paul. we're glad to have you with us. >> i'm victor blackwell. welcome to our viewers here in the u.s. and joining us from around the world. this is "new day saturday." first this morning, malaysia is demanding full access to the crash sight of mh-17 they're in eastern ukraine. >> as saw live here on cnn a short time ago, malaysia's transportation minister said it's inhuman if not allowed into that sight. >> the bodies of 280 people,

including two children, still lying in the fields. it's going to be a warm day. the effort is with respect and dignity to recover the bodies. so far international monitors were only allowed to spend an hour with the gunmen. >> the transportation minister said a full list will be released later today. he said he and others gore going to ukraine's capital to make sure the bodies are laid to rest. the question is how long will that take and how is it going to get done at this point. >> the question is who did this with the help of any state, possibly u.s. and malaysia officials suspect pro-russian rebels took down the aircraft using a missile launch system that may have come from russia. >> transport minister saying the location of the crucial flight dat and did voice recorders, believe it or not, is still unconfirmed.

>> cnn's phil black has been at the crash sight. he's now in donetsk in eastern uche. phil, thank you for being up with us this morning. you've been there at the scene. tell us what you saw there. >> reporter: victor, we spent the night there. and it was a fairly confronting situation during the dark. but come the dawn, with a the sunlight, even more so. firstly, the scale of the disaster, the physical disaster, the wreckage, the scouring to the earth through earth through impact and fire it really is quite awesome to behold. but there is, of course, a very disturbing connection to that. and that is the victims, the bodies. and they are everywhere. they lay across that landscape still in great numbers. presumably still in the positions from which they fell from the sky. largely untouched. some have had their positions marked by sticks and white cloth, but other than that, there appears to be very little coordinated effort to try and fix that. to try and collect that.

now, this area is still very much under the control of those pro-russian militants. they seem to have very little intent at this stage of rapidly dealing with that situation. and i think, particularly given that this is coming into the third day with which these bodies will now have been lying there under ukraine's summer sun, it's going to be a couple of key points that are going to increasingly concern the international community about the lack of access to this particular zone. firstly, it is dealing with recollecting, recovering these bodies, with the required dignity that you mentioned. as i say, it just doesn't seem to be happening at the moment. and the second big point, of course, as well is the investigation. a credible investigation to determine, with significant position precisely what happened there. so far, there is or appears to be very little progress on either of those two counts. and i think that's going to cause considerable concern, perhaps even anger if it looks

like that situation will continue. and i'll tell you, i think it will. because there appears to be no easy solution to try and get the required resources. required people in their quickly, even in the event that the rebels decide to allow that to happen. and so far, they are not doing so. victor, christi. >> you know, i wonder what exactly are the rebels saying? or how exactly are they holding people back when they try to get into that site, phil? >> reporter: well, they are allowing some freedom of movement, locals, journalists to some degree. we were able to get in there carefully, slowly, it took a great deal of time. the roads are terrible. there are lots of checkpoints. there are lots of armed rebels in that area. and they do regulate movement very carefully. what they're not letting in, obviously, those representatives are the ukrainian government. the central government in kiev in which they're very much

fighting. so, probably at this stage, the organization that has the greatest resources which could move in there potentially would be the ukrainian government. that is still the rebels' enemy. so we understand there may be some room to negotiate. there's been talk of negotiating an open corridor, a demilitarized zone, if you like to allow the experts to get in there and take care of this with the sort of level that the international community would expect. but so far, we're not seeing that sort of progress. we believe as we speak right now, the rebel leadership is holding a press conference which they intend to release some intention right now. but we're not hearing that. but they have not made any progress whatsoever to allowing either ukrainian authorities or large-scale numbers of international observers and experts in to deal with this. >> phil black there for us in donetsk. phil, thank you so much. we're joining by colonel

rick francona, a cnn military analyst. >> the crash site in ukraine has been described as the biggest crime scene in the world at this point. we just heard him describe what he saw. what is your initial reaction to this? >> well, this is outrageous, the people that are preventing the recovery of those body which is needs to be done for a variety of reasons, the same people that did this are refusing to allow any progress to be made. you need to get qualified investigators in there so they can find out really what happened. although i think we have a pretty good picture of what happened. and they may be stymieing the investigation because they don't want to have the real proof of the fact that they actually shot this aircraft down. >> this could go, i'm guessing, in one direction, or the other. in which that this could be, and tell me if you disagree here, that this could be -- come to a gunfight to keep the ukrainians out of this area tox keep their

territory. or do you think as phil black just reported, there's now this news conference, could this leader of the republic of donetsk as they've named it, try to use this to gain some international legitimacy by letting in some of these ver investigators? >> they may try, victor, but that ship has sailed. the world is outraged at what is going on here. the mere fact they took down this aircraft with almost abandon. if you look at the carelessness with which this operation was conducted. no attempt to determine if that was a civilian aircraft. we saw the audiotapes and the realization that they had actually shot down an aircraft. but i didn't see a whole lot of contrition once they found outings, like oh, no, look what we're done, this we're in trouble. not like oh, look what we've

done, is this a catastrophe. i think any legitimacy they hope to get out of this is gone. >> yeah, i doubt they would get it. hearing that the leaders are holding news conferences talking about possibly negotiating a demarl tearized zone might be the strategy. >> but if they want to negotiate, what does that look like? who negotiates? who leads that? >> yeah, because who actually controls that ground. and to get to that ground, you got to go through other people's territory. i mean, this is just as bad as it gets. and while they're negotiating and talking about negotiating, we've got real issues on the ground there. you know, those human remains need to be treated properly. and they need to be treated rather quickly. you know, time is not on our side here, so we need to get people in there. not just a few people, a lot of people. and then if you're going to conduct any kind of forensic investigation, we need to get in

there and do that fairly quickly as well. because all of that evidence is going to degrade over time. >> i know we're running out of time here. one quick question i want to get in here, u.n. officials tell cnn that they believe this system was moved into this region within the last few days, possibly weeks. is it possible in just that sort period of time to learn how to operate this properly? do you believe that there was some russian assistance on scene, i can see your facial expression, leading me to an answer here? >> yeah, there's no way you could learn to operate that system that quickly. it takes a u.s. army soldier six months to train up on a very similar system. there's been some training somewhere. there's been some assistance somewhere. this system came in a few weeks ago. the key should have been when they talked down an am-26 which is far larger than anything you can carry on your shoulder they should have started diverting

flights then. there's a whole other issues that they need to look at this in retrospect so this doesn't happen again. >> colonel francona, thanks for taking time to be with us. >> these pro-russian rebels are blamed for downing mh-17. the question is, who are the rebels, who are they fighting against? they are the ukrainian government. >> president obama has harsh words over the malaysian crashed plane. we'll tell you what he said. stay close. defiance never grows old. citracal maximum. easily absorbed calcium plus d. beauty is bone deep.

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to shoot down that boeing 777. >> president obama says the kremlin likely bears some responsibility here saying rebel fighters could not have carried out the attack without proper training. so who exactly are these pro-russian militants. cnn's deb feyerick has been looking into this. >> reporter: christi, the struggle in ukraine took on greater meaning and global impact after that passenger plane was struck down, possibly miss tan by the military as ukrainian military. they carved out what they called an independent republic vehemently opposed by the government of ukraine. malaysia airlines flight 17 shot down near the town of torres in the donetsk region of eastern ukraine. fighting has intensified in recent weeks between rebels and ukrainian military forces with cities destroyed and planes targeted. >> over the last several weeks,

russian-backed separatists have shot down a ukrainian transport plane and a ukrainian helicopter. and they claimed responsibility for shooting down a ukrainian fighter jet. >> reporter: possibly things mh-17 was another ukrainian plane an ominous message appeared on twitter at roughly the time the plane was shut down. quote, we warn you to stay out of the our skies. it was spoken by someone claiming to be pro-russian commander igor strokov. >> president obama announcing strict sanctions. >> reporter: russian president vladimir putin has denied help to the separatists but alexander borodai now prime minister the donetsk people's republic in charges of rebels and, he says,

hundreds of russian fighters. >> pro-russian separatists were backed by russia and began to take over strategic administrative buildings, again, patients, some of the military bases. they were being aided and abetted by russian special forces. >> reporter: both sides have access to the type of russian-made buk mission launcher believed to have taken down flight 17. and they might not even have had supplied to rebels. some believe the rebels could have seized after storming a ukrainian military base. still could be determined what impact, if any, this tragedy has to end the fighting and restore the country. christi. >> deb feyerick, thank you so much. president obama called the russian president about the mh-17 shoot down. plus as russian communities struggle to find answers here, monitors are facing increased

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president obama says russia bears some responsibility for the downing of flight m-17. >> yeah, the president says pro-russian rebels could not have operated the missiles believed to be responsible without, quote, sophisticated training. let's bring in erin mcpike in washington for us. we understand the president has had a conversation with president putin in russia. do we know what they talked about specifically, what was said? >> well, sure, christi and

victor, and he did speak with vladimir putin on thursday. and obama related that putin wasn't happy with the additional sanctions imposed so far. and president obama didn't back down and made the case that the case has to end which hasn't happened. president obama continues to needle russia for propping up the separatists in eastern ukraine. listening him to describe how that conflict has escalated to something of much greater magnitude. >> this was a global tragedy. an asian airliner was destroyed in european skies filled with citizens from many countries. so there has to be a credible international investigation into what happened. the u.n. security council has endorsed this investigation, and we will hold all its members, including russia, to their word. >> now, obama did warn against accepting propaganda as fact, and he was careful about how

directly he pointed the finger at russia. but he did call for an immediate cease-fire between russian separatists christi and victor. >> erin, i think it's important to bring in the statement from the u.n. ambassador amanda power. her words were firm but highlighting as many have it, this is a human tragedy. >> well, victor, that's right, she also pointed the finger at russia, but listen to how she did that. >> because of the technical complexity of the sa-11 it was unlikely that the separatists could effectively separate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. thus, we cannot rule out assistance from russian personnel in operating the system. >> she also went on to say essentially members of the international community have warned that something bad was going to happen because this provocation of russia has not stopped, christi and victor.

>> of course, that moment as well, she highlighted three of those victims next to those names were the letters "i" indicating that that person was an infant. meaning three infants died on that flight. thank you. malaysia says the rules of war were broken, and flight 17 apparently as many have indicated was shot down. >> now, it's demanding full access to the crash site. bodies are still lying in fields there. are armed rebels going to allow investigators back in today? and other car insurance companies? yes. but you're progressive and they're them. -yes. -but they're here. -yes. -are you... -there? -yes. -no. -are you them? i'm me. but the lowest rate is from them. -yes. -so them's best rate is... here. so where are them? -aren't them here? -i already asked you that. -when? -feels like a while ago. want to take it from the top? rates for us and them.

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♪ the bottom of the hour right now. so grateful for your company, i'm christi paul. >> i'm victor black well. we're starting with five things you need to know for your "new day." >> number one, malaysia said it will release the full passenger manifest from downed flight 17 and they will do so today. 290 people were killed in eastern ukraine yesterday. u.s. officials say a surface-to-air missile hit it. u.s. negotiating with russians to get access to that site. and escalating to 307 in the area, according to palestinians,

72 of those kills are children. meanwhile palestinian president mahmoud abbas will go to qatar this weekend to try to find a solution to this crisis. >> number three, the terror group islamic state in iraq and syria also known as isis have sent threatening letters to iraqis in the city of mosul. it tells them to accept islam, pay extra taxes to the court or face, quote, death by the sword. christians having told to leave the city by today. isis militants have taken over large parts of iraq and syria in the last months. number four, a deal between the countries and the united states have been extended. the group will keep negotiating the future of iran's program four missouris. sunday was the deadline to file a plan. iran is looking for some sanction relief in exchange for slowly dismantling parts of its nuclear program and agreeing inspections. and number five, massive

wildfires in washington state are still burning and they are out of control. officials say there is deer row containment of the carlton complex fire. flames surged to nearly 100,000 acres. fueled by high winds and hot condition. dozens of homes have been destroyed. hundreds of residents have had to evacuate, some across the border into canada, in fact. officials say lightning ignited the wildfire on monday. ♪ all right. a live look now at kiev. we're waiting the ukrainian foreign minister to speak at a news conference here. of course, when this happens, we'll bring it to you. we know, of course, we heard from the malaysia transport minister this morning. and have had a conversation with the ukrainian government, hoping to get access to the area where mh-17, the debris, the wreckage is. he says that he has that confirmation that there will be

cooperation from the ukrainian government. but the question is will those rebels who actually control that area, will they allow any of the investigators, any of the monitors, the malaysian airlines officials go to that area. >> that one is of the biggest question, time is of the essence to get in there and get those bodies back to their families. ukraine is pointinging the finger at russia alleging the cover-up. >> take a look at this video. they say this shows the buk weapon allegedly used to shut down the plane being moved across the border into russia. you see one of warheads missing there in the center. experts say the missing air defense system is so powerful that one missile can travel faster than three tiles the speed of time. >> justin prong is a military analyst joined by cnn aviation analyst and former inspector general of department of transportation, mary schiavo and

tom puente. thank you very much for being with us. tom, you've seen that video that we just saw and showed to our viewers. how incriminating is that for the kremlin? how much evidence is that? >> well, christi, if it's an accurate, it's very incriminating that that equipment was being hidden after the shootdown. you know, at this point, we're asking the rebels that appear to have, at least the indications are that they shot that aircraft down, possibly mistake on their part, but they shot it down, now, you have them trying to cover up, or we're asking them, i should say, to allow investigators in to find out how guilty they are. and wonder why they're not doing that. why they're not allowing the international community to come in. right now, you know, a handful of rebels with weapons are holding back the entire world. and we don't hear anything of the outrage you would normally expect. we haven't heard from the united

nations, icao, we don't hear from the netherlands they had nearly 100 people on that plane, doesn't seem to be outraged except for president obama. >> why do you think we aren't hearing that? >> that's a good question. we heard in the past reluctance of europe feens criticize russians because they get their couple months of' oil and they'll be back to winter and they need that. and saying we don't want to cast blame too soon. well, forget about the blame. you want to recover your victims. recover their remains. reunite them with their families. that's first and foremost, much less down the road point fingers the who did it. >> justin, i want to bring you in here, how much operational expertise would rebels need to operate a buk missile. we're getting reports it was transferred just within a couple days of this crisis? >> yeah, i mean, to operate an

sa-11 buk properly and with full functioning, you need months of training, full military experience. it say complex system. however, it is possible that, you know, perhaps people who did military service earlier in their lives, have gone across and have previous experience on the system, or potentially, you know the separatists have people who have been trained by russian military specialists. and, for a few days, few weeks, could operate the system to a certain degree of functional facility and that would help to partially explain why they missed the contact far above the altitude that you would normally see ukrainian military flights. and also they appeared to have no idea that there were civilians transformed the signals that would have been coming off that plane as well. >> mary, let's talk about that. the recordings released by the ukrainian officials.

they indicate that the rebels mistook this plane for a military plane. how is that possible? >> well, mistook, oreck maing a mistake is actually giving them more leeway than is due. there's no indication that they made any effort to attempt to identify the plane. the plane was undoubtedly and this will be something that is clearly displayed on the black boxes. it was clearly squawking a civilian airliner code. it was on a civilian airliner transponder. there's no indication they made any indication whatsoever. they were in this case, criminals with a mission and shot down a plane. i don't think "mistake" is the right word. if everything we've seen so far is accurate. it's truly the words of the criminals that did it. >> tom, you were hearing so much of what's happening at the crash scene which is ironic because they're not letting investigators into the crash scene. investigators as we know are being held back by armed militants who are there.

and we're also hearing from phil black today who is in the region that perhaps these rebels are going to be holding a press conference soon. a news conference of some sort, ready to negotiate. we have never seen a situation like this. have you ever seen a situation where you've got to get to a crime scene that's being held by rebels. how do you negotiate with that? >> i haven't seen this before. and i don't think the rebels even have a clue of what would be required in this case to actually do any kind of investigation. it would take hundreds of people several months. they will need a convoy of trucks for the victims. they'll need a convoy of flat-bed trucks, cranes, other heavy equipment, to remove the debris. they'll need a location to take the debris to so where it can be reassembled and examined and determine what contactually happen to the aircraft. the recovery of the black boxes probably still buried in the ground or tail section of that plane have not been removed, we

would hope. but all of that work that has to go into an investigation like this, requires thousands of people, really, on the ground, at the site. and away from the site. and a lot of equipment. and we don't see any effort yet to even discuss how that's going to be brought out there to be used. >> mary, there have been these unconfirmed reports that the black boxes are now in the hands of the russians. the transport minister in malaysia saying he has no confirmation on where those are. if those are not retrievable at this point, if indeed they're not there with the plane anymore, how much do we lose and are they as crucial as we say we spoke months ago in 370. we essentially know from the intelligence what happened here. >> right, well they're crucial in the sense they can be used if misinformation is involved to attempt to give the criminals a shot at russia some cover. for example, on the black boxes it would clearly be contained, you know, what communications were made or attempted or not

made, most importantly, with the carrier. what the carrier was squawking, meaning it was sending out a civilian airliner transponder code. that would be contained, of course, on that, setting up certainly that no effort was made. of course, this is starting to be very reminiscent again of the shoot down of kao-007 because russia held the black boxes for a decade and only boris yeltsin let the world know in 1993, a decade, or almost a decade after it happened that they had them but it shows conclusively there was no effort to contact the plane. and that the plane was in international airspace and it was shot down. we see that the black boxes can having a pawn in the misinformation, that's the problem. >> justin bronc, mary schiavo and tom fuentes, your insight is important. thank you for making it here.

>> thank you. let's talk about a grandfather. a family on a summer vacation. >> yeah. a young student who loved rugby, soccer. they're some of the 298 people who were aboard malaysian airlines fight 17. next, we're going to remember some of those killed aboard that tragic flight. remember, this is, at its heart, a human tragedy. ♪

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more now on the top story this morning, the crash of malaysian airlines flight 17.

and now the victims who died aboard that doomed 777. >> the scene on the ground by the investigators has been described as the biggest crime scene in the world. plane parts, luggage, bodies that are scattered through fields for miles. >> those victims, they came from around the world. some were athletes. vacational families, even a roman catholic n.un. we also know 80 them were children. cnn's alexander field has a closer look at the 289 lives lost. >> out to the field, you see the bodies, you see a man with this cracked iphone sticking out of his pocket. >> thinking about those people, being knocked out of the sky, it's pretty tough. >> it's just -- it's unbelievable. it's not really real yet. >> reporter: sister tearman, an

australian nun, a beloved teacher was heading home. >> she's been a great mentor and a personal friend. we're just devastated. the shock has been incredible. she very much brought love in all her interactions with everybody. >> reporter: nick norris was traveling with his three young grandchildren. >> just gentle, clever, beautiful kids. >> the most magnificent parent to us, those kids. my sister, my brother and myself, and just generally the most wonderful people and we're absolutely devastated losing them. >> we love you. we love you. we love you so much, we're going to miss you so much. >> reporter: families in pain now turning to prayer from malaysia to moscow. in amsterdam and ukraine. >> clothing everywhere, most of

it kind of ripped off by the air, suitcases and stuff. >> their deaths are an outrage of unspeakable proportions. >> reporter: queen lucas schansman was the only american identified so far. he was a rower at indiana university. >> people have been finding lots and lots. >> reporter: glenn thomas the spokesperson for the world health organization, about to celebrate his 50th birthday. >> his twin sister says he died doing what he loved. >> reporter: joep lang, on his way to an aids conference with nearly 100 passengers. >> these were men and women who had dedicated their own lives to saving the lives of others. and they were taken from us in a senseless act of violence. >> reporter: they leave burning

questions behind what if, what for? alexander field, cnn, new york. >> alexandra, thank you so much. this is a chilling family about this family ready to board mh-17, but turned away from the airline. we're going to tell you what happened. israeli forces now plunging deeper into gaza. next, we're going to talk live to israel's military spokesman about this ground offensive and these long-term plans. ♪ ♪ ♪here i am. rock you like a hurricane♪

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skies were lit up in gaza is last night eliminated by crashes between israeli forces and hamas militant. >> it's a conflict that's really grown bloodier by the day. palestinian officials say more than 300 people have been killed, 72 of them children, and more than 40,000 people have been displaced as parts of gaza have been reduced really to rubble by israeli attacks. >> the israeli military saying it's forced to protect itself from the barrage of rocket fire in gaza. let's talk about this with wolf blitzer in jerusalem and along with him lieutenant colonel peter learnard. wolf, good morning. >> let's get to lieutenant colonel learner. the images that we're seeing out

of gaza, the civilian casualties, the children, pretty horrific right now. what's going jon. >> well in full gear, we're taking the battle to the terrorists. unfortunately, they intentionally positioned themselves in the midst of the civilian population. indeed, there is this overflow. i would say in our mission, over the last almost two days now, of the ground forces, we've arrested a great deal. we've exposed 13 tunnels which were meant to enable the palestinian terrorist, the hamas terrorists, to penetrate israel. >> going from gaza? >> 13 instances. >> have you destroyed those tunnels? >> we're in the action of operating to decommission them so they will not pose a threat anymore. >> because we've heard there may be indications there's been another infiltration even as we speak of hamas commanders, if you will, coming through those tunnels into israel? >> well, we have incidents where

hamas terrorists have infiltrated israel, used the tunnels to come in. they were on their way to a civilian community in the south. they met our soldiers on the way. there was a gun fight. they have people dead, we have casualties. >> israeli casualties? >> as well. and pled back into gaza where we intercepted them with our air farce capabilities but it goes to exemplify. can you imagine 13 of those where simultaneously they would come into israel. this is the threat we're up against. >> because the clashes inside gaza seem to be very intense right now? >> i would say it's medium level. it's the type of combat we expect to bheet going into zbaz za. >> have they have high capability? >> i've heard your correspondents report everything from high-tech to low-tech and explosive donkey. >> what does that mean? >> they take an animal, and send it nears forces. >> that happened today?

>> it was late last night. >> what did you do? >> we had to prevent the donkey from approaching our force. >> you detected that. >> we have measures to detect this is happening. it goes to the level of our intelligence as well. so we've taken over the last 24 hours, almost, 48, it would be later today, two strategic tours of hamas' terrorist infrastructure. and they are really drilling down on those. so the rocket capabilities have not been depleted to about 50%. >> so in other words, the 10,000 rockets and missiles israeli intelligence earlier estimated they had, you say you destroyed -- >> around half. >> 5,000? >> almost. >> israel have launched 5,600. and now around 3,000 that we've dealt with directly. >> your estimate is they still have about 5,000 left? >> yeah. >> your mission is to restore all of those 5,000? >> our mission is to restore it.

they've had time and time opportunity to cease fire every time they've reached that junction. they've chosen to escalate and have more aggression. so we're basically left with no alternative than to operate against them. >> you're going after the tunnels. how close are you towards eradicating the immass tunnels into israel? >> that's a huge feat. there are tens of tunnels -- >> tens? >> targeting israel at different levels of construction. so that type of threat for us is a huge feat. i mean, one of them that was successful today. a couple days ago, we had another tunnel in which 13 terrorists came in through. that was a strategic goal for hamas to have the upper hand on our forces. now, what we are doing, we're fighting that. we're combatting that, we're preventing them having this advantage on our forces. i'm not saying it can't happen. it mruved itself today, this morning, there was another tunnel that we didn't have and they came in. >> given the civilian crisis, the refugees fleeing their

homes, the casualties, the children, are there humanitarian corridors that these people can undertake to avoid these kinds of bitter battles that are going jon. >> well, we've encouraged people to leave specific area where is we know we are going. unfortunately, as we have seen, hamas terrorists will launch rockets to next to hospitals. they will launch rockets from mosques, in civilian areas. we've cancelled several missions there in order to avert civilian casualties. but it is a huge challenge for a military. >> did you know the civilian casualties, the numbers mount dramatically. there have been israel casualty this as well? >> in this clash, engagement this morning, we've had casualties. at least two people who have been wounded. we have civilian casualties, also in the rocket attack in

negev. we've received word of one death there. >> a civilian killed? >> a civilian killed from indiscriminate fire from gaza. >> there are other reports that israeli soldiers may have been killed? >> i can't have that at this time. we'll update you. >> colonel peter learner, thank you for joining us. >> christi and victor, there you have the latest from the israeli perspective. you've been showing our viewers what is going none zbaz it. it's very intense. and as i suspect as president benjamin netanyahu has said, it's only going to get more intense. >> wolf blitzer along with lund colonel learner, thank you so much, we appreciate it. think about this, a couple and their baby was supposed to board flight 17. >> then at the last minute, the airline said no, they could not. well, we'll tell you what happened, how they feel now knowing they could have been on that doomed flight.

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a british family, they feel like they've cheated death after they heard about the malaysian airlines crash. >> wouldn't you. barry and izzy sims and their baby had reservations on that flight, but they were bumped to a later flight because it was overbooked. >> i'm shaking. i don't even know what to do. i feel like physically sick. i was like from -- from hilton, coming through the airport in the taxi, just crying. i just think i feel like i've been given a second chance. hopefully that will stay with me. and i'll be able to see my family again. >> the couple said they were on

their way to kuala lumpur for izzy to see her family. hopefully, they get to do that soon anyway, because it will be one heck of a reunion. >> it will indeed. >> thank you so much for starting your morning with us. next hour of your "new day" starts now. it's just part of what is left of malaysian airlines flight 17. >> you just hope that none of these children -- or the grandchildren will go before you. >> you saw next to three of the passengers names the capital "i." as we now know, the letter "i" stands for infant. >> that's crazy. you don't expect to go into an airplane and get blown out of the sky. >> i just feel for those

families and what they are dealing with today. we're so glad to have your company. thank you for making us part of your morning. i'm christi paul. >> i'm victor blackwell. welcome to viewers here in the u.s. and around the world. this is "new day saturday." and some new breaking details there from the vicinity of the crash site. reports of gunfire and explosions in that area. experts have bags, body bags there, they're moving them to the sides of the road. this is from the osce monitor. the organization for security and cooperation in europe there. these body bags are being placed there. the details are indelicate. but the body parts are being placed in the bags and then left on the side of the road for collection. the question is, when will there be this collection of these 298 souls. these bodies that were essentially shot out of the sky just a couple days ago. now, we know that the bodies of these people, from 11 countries,

have been lying in a remote field patrolled by the armed gunmen in eastern ukraine. >> malaysia says it's a disgrace and it's imhumane and it wants access and it wants access now. >> so far, international monitors have been allowed at the crash sight for a little more than an hour. we know today, there are fewer of those osc monitors, these observers to be more mobile today. it seems like they're getting a little more access but reports of gunfire in that vicinity. >> and explosions as well. malaysia's transport minister said the full list of the passengers from malaysia's flight 17 will be released today. and he said he and other officials are going to ukraine's capital to make sure the bodies are retrieved to be laid to rest. at the end of the day, he says this is not just a geopolitical issue, it's a human tragedy. >> the u.s. and others suspect the pro. >> referee: russian rebels took

down the plane yesterday with a surface-to-air missile from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. malaysia said it will indeed continue that investigation, as the transport minister getting to kiev. we want to bring in cnn's phil black. he has been there at the crash site. >> he's in donetsk in eastern ukraine. phil, as we hear about gunfire and explosions in that the vicinity of that crash site, what are you hearing? >> reporter: well, as we know, this is an active war zone, and even through the morning when we were there, we heard what sounded very much like mortar fire or some form of artillery in the near distance. it is a constant threat in that location. very much part of the reality there. and yet another complicating factor as to why it is so difficult to get access. and to begin the much needed processes of recovering those bodies. and, of course, investigating precisely what happened there. the scene there, it is

confronting, it is deeply moving. there is no doubt about it. it is quite awesome to stand before the scale of the destruction, the size of the wreckage. the damage to the earth from the impact and fire that followed there but also then to simply turn to look around the fields and see the many bodies that still lie there. now, we've heard that there is a beginning process to recover those bodies with body bags and so forth. but i can tell you that this morning, there seemed to be very little progress in that regard. i think that increasingly, that is going to be a source of concern for the international community if these bodies are not treated with respect as they now enter their third day beneath ukraine's summer sun. victor, christi. >> my question to you, phil, how aggressively are these rebels protecting, for lack of a better term, this wreckage, this area? >> reporter: they are very much regulating controlling their

territory. because in event weeks they have been driven back significantly by ukrainian military. the area of territory they now control is much smaller than it was. but it does, as we know, include this area where the plane came down. so to get there, you have to go through many layers. many road checks. and vehicle checks, paperwork, doubts, really. you can't get in there without their approval. it just doesn't happen, certainly as western journalists. we were able to get in there. once there, we found them to be relatively friendly. even supportive of our presence. but we know that others including the european monitors that you mentioned had a much different experience. we described them as openly hostile. talked about them even firing their weapons into the air in response to their presence. so i think it does vary and this is another independent factor, depending where you are. because these groups do not fall under one banner, one leadership. they are variation factions loosely banded together in the

cause of this autonomous people's republic. but it's not a strict hierarchy or command if you like. and yet another complicating factor, in responding to this sort of disaster in the way the world would expect. victor and christi. >> phil, we only have a couple seconds but the last time we spoke with you you indicated that the rebels are expected to hold a news conference. >> reporter: we believe it's ongoing. we haven't heard what the details are. we've been trying to get that information. but they are expected to discuss their approach to this disaster and the investigation and, of course that recovery. >> phil black, thank you so much. the question that allot of people have, was this an accident, or was it calculated at the end of the day? while pro-russian rebels are being blamed for shooting down flight 17, the why is what is still unanswered? >> joining us now lund colonel

mcginnis and david zusi. what's your opinion about what happened here? >> well, victor, with sa-11 undisputably within the hands of the separatists and they're out of control of russian and ukrainian air defense capabilities and monitoring radar. and, of course, over the last week, we've had at least three downings of aircraft by separatists, according to the president's statement yesterday, that it would appear as if this was mistakenly identified, the flight 17 by separatists and therefore, engaged. and certainly within the capability of a surface-to-air missile 11 by separatists who probably have been trained or perhaps deserted the ukrainian side and understands how to use the weapon, it was engaged. now, important the people's republic of donetsk, the separatist regime there, gave the order.

or it was an individual who was saying, well, i'll take the initiative. what we do know, by voice intercepts that the separatists, the leader of the separatists claimed credit for downing another aircraft. and then, of course, quickly, they removed it from the website so, you know, culpability is across the board. whoever provided that sa-11 or it was a captured sa-11, that's to be determined. and the tragedy and the blame will go on for some time. >> david, whether this was intentional work or whether it was an accident by russian rebels, do you think that those rebels then will back off a bit? or will we see an escalation? >> there's been no indication that they're going to back off at this point, other than the fact that they have let some people go on to the site. they've allowed them to get in there and start doing some

extraction of the bodies. there's really two things that need to be done right now. and that's the dignity of those victims and to preserve those bodies and to bring them back to their loved ones and relatives. the second part is that of culpability again. and the only way that's going to be truly determined is the hard physical evidence to prove something did hit the aircraft. and determine from that aircraft what direction it came from and perhaps how far away it was when it was launched. that's going to be so important as we move forward with this culpability issue. >> colonel, the strongest resistance, i'd imagine, that we'd see from these rebels would be if the ukrainian military, the ukrainian government, would come into that area, as they have a right to, to lead that investigation. do you think the ukrainians should hand over leadership of this investigation to the international community, to the u.s., to some other body? >> well certainly, the president sent the fbi and the ntsb there to assist. and the u.n. has endorsed an

investigation. and, you know, clearly, the disaster site has to be correspond d cordoned and it has to be investigated. however, we already have reports that the black boxes are in the hands of the separatists and probably they've moved to moscow. we know the site is contaminated. and as the reports over the last few minutes have indicated there at cnn, you know, you have bodies sitting out in the open and three days of intense sunlight. you know, it's a disaster within a disaster. now, i will tell you that, you know, the former atfbsd. the gru, the military intelligence of the russians are well imbedded within the separatists. because of that, i think they have every motivation to try to hide some of the evidence. so the longer that the west is

kept out of the crash site, it's going to be much more difficult to prove culpability. and i think that that fits what moscow wants. they want this to be declared an accident. they don't want it to be, you know, marking what they're trying to accomplish there in eastern ukraine. >> all right, well, david, when it comes to, you know, the crash site itself do you think it is going to take force by somebody else to overtake these rebels and get in? or do you think there can be some sort of negotiation? >> well, i think they have to try both aspects. they have to try to negotiate. but if it doesn't work within a day, we need to start moving in and someone needs to go in there and secure that site. in some manner. i know that's not an easy task. but it has to be done. it really has to be done. if the evidence has already been damaged to a point of irretrievability, which i don't think has happened, actually from the pictures that we're

seeing right there. i could see earlier there were pictures of the tail of the aircraft. you could see the actuator for the horizontal stabilizer. these are things in determining what happened to the aircraft. why it went down in the manner that it did. that had-l help us determine how close that missile was fired. and there be tell us who may have launched the missile in the first place. so i think that's a very important part as well. >> david soucie, colonel maginnes, thank you both. meanwhile, there are families and friends watching all of this, and they just want to remember the people that they love. one of those passengers was a pioneer in hiv-aids research, dr. joep lange. we'll hear about him. hundreds dead, thousands injured. we'll talk about the relief efforts headed into gaza as it faces down this humanitarian crisis. ♪ so nice, so nice

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♪ we now know if you treat people very early, if you treat people occurring acute infection that the reservoir size is quite limited. i think that's what our hope is if we catch enough people early in the infection. it will not be all that difficult to cure them eventually. >> that was dr. joep los ange s dr. lange was on his way to an international aids conference that started in melbourne, australia. a lot of his colleagues say his death say huge loss to the hiv-aids and global health community. a lot of his friends and colleagues are now talking legacy. >> joining us from waugs is a

lois a longtime friend of dr. lange. we want to thank you for being here with us. our thoughts are with you and everybody trying to reconcile what's happened. we did not know him. we want to give you a chance to help us understand the imprint that the doctor was leaving behind. what kind of man was he? what kind of visionary was he? >> yeah, visionary is a good simple word to describe him. he was very early, one of the leaders in the fight against hiv/aids, when there was nothing that could actually be done against that horrible disease, he worked tirelessly to come up with what is called a combination therapy of very dangerously hard to swallow drugs but he did not stop there being a scientist. he was, of course, very pleased that more and more people in the western world, in the united states and europe, could use

those drugs. and continue a healthy and productive life. but he was appalled to see that almost nobody in africa, for instance, had access to those drugs. and he worked tirelessly to reverse that. to change that. and i think it's not much of an overstatement to say today millions of people are alive in africa thanks to his tireless efforts to get those people access to those drugs. >> as we learn more about him, it's hard to overstate his contribution to science. and to research. but, this is your friend. tell me about the man. >> the man, you saw on the screen, he is -- he's very soft-spoken. very gentle. he's a great friend to almost immediately to all the people that he works with. but he as an iron core. deep down there is a commitment

to improve the lives of those infected by hiv/aids to rid the world of the disease. to promote access to all kinds of health care for even the poorest parts of the world population. and i would say once he is on a mission, don't go in his way, because he will do everything he can to reach his goals. >> soft-spoken and yet so passionate and staunch in his beliefs. i'm wondering what are you going to miss most about dr. lange? >> well, we became good friends in the past 15 years that we worked together in amsterdam. and he just -- just by being in the room he was an inspiration to all the people that worked around him. and with him and for him. and my guess is that his vision

and his energy and his passion will continue to stimulate and inspire those people. but i think they will just miss the person. >> as you will, i'm sure. >> absolutely. >> well, jacques van der gaag, thank you so much for bringing such an intimate look at a man that we don't know but you obviously had the blessing of knowing. thank you for taking the time for us today. >> thank you. we learned a lot about the final moments of mh-17 through social media. through the crash itself, to video of the passengers just moments before takeoff. we're going to take a look at how youtube and twitter and instagram are helping us understand just what happened to this flight.

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well we know social media is playing an important role for investigators who are looking into this crash of flight 17. and the final moments for that plane. >> yeah, i mean, there's even video. one video showing some of the victims boarding. look at this, before they took off on this flight. cnn's nick valencia has seen a lot of these things out there. there's almost more than you can even stand. >> yes, so many retweets, posted on facebook, social media in general. we were talking about this could very well be the most documented plane crash of time. almost instantly, we saw photos posted from civilians at the crash site. and journalists posting what

they saw from the crash site and the crime scene. they were posting photos on twitter. then we saw this video posted on instagram by one of the passengers which could be the last glimpse of mh-17 before it's ill-fated trip, before it crashed right there on the border of russia and ukraine. i want to show you this video. the caption of it, in the name of god, feeling a little bit nervous. you see there victor and christi, passengers doing their ordinary routine things before taking off. stowing their luggage. you can't hear the video there but you hear the final crew member, saying make sure you stow your bags before the flight takes off. then there was this facebook post from another passenger on his way for holiday with his girlfriend. he posted this if it disappears, is this what it looks like. of course making a reference to m-370, the flight that still has not been located. as well as a story we saw today on "the daily mail" another

post, saying people were actually taking photos of the bodies falling from the sky 30,000 feet in the air. they have a story on the main page. lots of people talking about this. also people that witnessed it. residents in this very remote part of the world posting about what they see. this is an ethical question as well, we've got to ask ourselves, journalists walking around, are they stepping on what could be evidence. are they tainting an investigation. this is hampering anything at all that could potentially limit the investigation. >> well, i know the dignity that we want to give these people. >> that's a great point. >> and how do you do that when there's so much tension there. just trying to get to the site so you can get information to these families. >> and there's a lot of interest, you know, so it's like where's the line? when do you draw the line? what is going too far from civilians, from journalists. i know the folks that we have there, it's a sensitive issue that they're dealing with.

>> and the other benefit of social media is that we're hearing the stories of these victims. >> right. >> the social media, instagram, twitter, they're being used to remember the loved ones. in ways that previous crashes, previous disasters, they just didn't are the resources to do. >> that could help with the healing. >> yeah, it helps with the healing and helps remind us this is not just a number. these are people. nick, thank you so much. >> thank you, nick. well, you know, president obama isn't outright blaming russia, but he says it does share responsibility for what happened on this flight. we're going to have more on that for you. sfx: car unlock beep.

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31 minute it's past the hour right now. president obama says russia bears some responsibility for

the crash of flight mh-17. he said pro-russian rebels could not have operated this system without, quote, sophisticated training. let's bring in cnn's erin mcpike. erin, what else did the president have to say? >> well, victor, he attributed the violence going on at the border of eastern ukraine and russia largely to the russians for encouraging those pro-russian separatists. and he once again encouraged the russians to take the lead in defusing this situation. listen. i don't think we have that sound ready. we apologize, obviously having a technical problem. go ahead and kind of let us know what was said and talk to us about the conversation that we know the president had with

president putin. >> yes. >> well, essentially vladimir putin said to president obama that he wasn't happy obviously with the crippling sanctions that the united states has imposed on russia over the past few months. those sanctions have been getting more and more crippling. now, president putin said he has gotten some encouraging language coming from the kremlin in recent weeks, but obviously, it has not gone far enough in stopping the violence. and while he didn't directly blame russia for this tragedy, he certainly said that it wouldn't have happened if russia hadn't been assisting those separatists. >> all right. >> we also know that ambassador samantha power to the u.n., she addressed this situation. but she took a different approach. tell us about that. >> well, victor, she said, actually, much the same thing, that they couldn't rule out the assistance of russian personnel. and because the systems are so

technically complex, that it really strains credibility to say that russia wasn't involved in some way at some part of the process. she also said that the violence that's going on in the border, that many members of the international community have said something devastating would happen. and lo and behold, here we go. >> erin mcpike, thank you so much for the all the information. we appreciate it. and to samantha power said yesterday, which i think really hung with a lot of people, she said this war can be ended. russia must end this war. she was very firm. very terse with that whole thing. >> let's bring in now cnn foreign affairs correspondent jill dougherty for the latest on what's going on in russia and ukraine. >> jill is our former moscow bureau chief. jill, good to see you this morning. i know you're going to continue research on russia this fall as a public policy scholar at the wod grow wilson center. talk about ukraine and russia.

they're pointing fingers at each other, essentially blaming each other. it seems the overall evidence connects russians to this disaster. what do you think putin is go g ing to do with all of this? >> you know, i think it's going to be very difficult for him to deny this objectively. but that doesn't mean he's not going to try to. and it doesn't mean that he's going to try to change the narrative as quickly and as sophisticatingly as he can. right now, where it stands, have all of this evidence, at least the assurance of evidence coming from the united states and from the west about what happened. and that places the blame on those rebels and the separatists who are in eastern ukraine. coming for the russians, they continue to say that the ukrainian government, and the ukrainian military were the people who are at fault. now, more and more, the pressure, i think, is drawing on putin, because of the number of

people who were killed in that accident. or that shootdown. who were from many, many countries. and they are having -- it appears, to take a relook at what's going on. and take some action. that said, there's no guarantee that they will. so where you have president obama i think is saying, look, mr. putin, you have been saying that you want peace. but your actions completely deny that. you are continuing to supply heavy weapons. you are continuing to train these separatists. and whether they did it, the separatists did it, being trained by russia or whether, perhaps, russians themselves aided physically there on the ground, in a sense it doesn't make any difference. if the culpability lies with russia. and that is a position of president obama. so where does putin go? i don't think he's going to back down at this point at all.

i think domestically for him and the russian people, it would be extremely difficult just to turn on the dime and say, oh, i'm sorry, our rebels did it. and we have to stop supplying them. how he's going to get out of it, i honestly don't know. i would presume there would have to be some type of turning, if he even gets that far. but it will be with late of caveats and a lot of explaining. so, at this point, i think he's in a real pickle. i really think he is in difficulty. and i think that the kremlin is worried about how they get out of this. >> and another question that many are asking, what will be the u.s.'s response, the international response, to russia? there's a piece in "the washington post" this morning, the editorial board they have this opinion piece, let's put some of it up on the screen here. they talk about the president's words on friday. mr. obama said that the malaysia airlines tragedy should be a wake-up call about the consequences to an escalating

conflict in eastern ukraine. he was speaking about the europeans, but the message also applies to the white house. they go on to say the half-steps and symbolic gestures will not stop the aggressions or the atrocities it produces. what will work here essentially? there have been sanctions in place for some time. what is the next step that i guess the editorial board now thinks is the full step? >> i'm not quite sure what they mean. you can continue to escalate sanctions. you can really make them hurt. but most importantly, you would have to get everybody else, all the other countries on board. then there are things, you know, you can close your airspace to russian plane, et cetera. but i'm not quite sure. but really the decision resides with vladimir putin. and that's what you saw pretty dramatically, although the president, president obama yesterday, was very careful in the way he said it. it is an ultimatum to putin to put his actions where his words

are. and to do something. but i think that, you have to say at this point the trust on both sides is completely gone. there is no trust left for vladimir putin. it's how do you contain him. how do you stop him from this action. and i have to say, victor and christi, sometimes, i am not saying that vladimir putin wanted this to happen at all. that's not the point. the point is when you start fuelling a conflict like this, these things can happen. and this came out of the blue, literally out of the blue. it is a game-changer and a very important one. and there can be other game-changers, too. there can be very dangerous things that are setting train by taking these actions, that nobody intended. and can have devastating consequences. >> a game-changer indeed. jill dougherty with us this morning. jill, thank you so much.

>> thank you, jill. well, let's talk about gaza because they are facing a true humanitarian crisis here. not even children are spared as war is waging between israel and gaza. we're going to talk to a u.n. agency about what is being done to bring relief. ♪ ♪ ♪here i am. rock you like a hurricane♪ fiber one now makes cookies. find them in the cookie aisle. we're trying our best to be role models.dels. we don't jump at the sound of the opening bell,

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you've got to remember, even with the political turmoil, the conflict in gaza and israel, there are children involved here. civilians at the heart of this, paying the price for war. >> and it's hard to look at this, i know. in the morning, or at anytime, but we need to be real, to be truthful about what is happening there. and these images bring that to us. buildings reduced to ruins. we see here. tens of thousands of people are not in their homes. they've been forced out. is israel and gaza fire upon each other. >> gaza has taken the brunt of the damage, both in casualties and in decimated infrastructure. israeli air strikes destroying water lines and sewers, leveling hospitals. residential buildings as well we see here. >> we need to discuss the humanitarian crisis, we're joined by christopher gunnis,

he's the spokesman for the world health agency, via skype. christopher, thankful that you can be with us here. what is priority number one for you in gaza? >> right now, the number of displaced people seeking sanctuary is above 50,000 people. that's the same level of the gaza fighting five years ago. the main purpose is to shelter them, bring food, water all that the number of people in 44 schools in gaza will need. of course, the other major priority is the security of civilians. we all on all of the parties to respect the invulnerability. in the round of fighting years ago, hundreds of installations were hit. we've also had a situation recently where we discovered 20 rockets in an unra school which wasn't being used.

we strongly condemn the group or groups who did that because civilian infrastructure must be respected at all costs. >> we know your volunteers are going in doing amazing work. how do you secure their work area and make sure they are safe, that you are safe? >> through moral authority. we have unarmed humanitarian workers. we have 13,000 staff in gaza. as far as i'm concerned, they're all humanitarian heroes doing extraordinary work amid the conflict, amid the fire. so that is why we have also launched a $60 million emergency appeals. starting tomorrow, we will not have enough money to procure blankets and other nonfood items. so we are appealing with emergency, a flash appeal for $60 million. one month of the sort of emergency work that we're doing now, which will start once the fighting stops with the inspector general on wait to the region we hope will be soon.

and three to six months, this is the $60 million appeal which will fund worker in the recovery phase for rebuilding shelters, and cancelling the thousands of traumatized children. emergency food, emergency medicine, all the things you that need in a three to six-month recovery after a conflict like that. we need the government to come forth. further information can be gotten at twitter. please, we need food, foundations, all sorts of people to start giving. it's leaving the international crisis, with 50,000 people and rising, we urgently need assistance. >> we certainly hope you can get the assistance you need doing such important work. he brings up a point, too. remember, they need psychiatrist help as well to help people. this is not just physically helping people get through this. this is emotionally helping

people as well. christopher guinness, we appreciate it. best of luck to you. >> there are the scars you can see and the scars you cannot see. a massive tropical cyclone bearing down on southern china is weakening but it's claiming more victims. our meteorologist is tracking typhoon ram mumussin and where s heading. 3rd and 3. 58 seconds on the clock, what am i thinking about? foreign markets.

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good morning. i'm meteorologist jennifer gray with the remnants of super typhoon rammasun. this has made landfall yesterday afternoon. it claimed almost 90 lives in the philippines and eight or nine more in china. this was an incredible, incredible storm. this is its path as it went through early friday morning. you can see haiku. you see the winds packed at 155 miles an hour and wind gusts at 185 miles an hour. its second landfall in china. this will go down in the books as one of the strongest typhoons china has ever had. this is making history. it is now weakening. it will cause a lot of rain, flooding rain, and we are already looking to our next typhoon that is already to the east of the philippines, again. you can see making landfall right around 2:30 local time.

winds of 155 miles per hour with gusts of over 185 miles per hour. that is right on the cusp of what we call a category four to a category five storm. here is the visible satellite as it was making landfall. you see the eye with multiple vortices. you see the satellite with the coldest highest cloud tops with the winds at 185 miles an hour right around that eye right at the center. incredible images. already looking at our next storm. this one looks like it will trail off to the north. it doesn't look like it will make a direct impact on the philippi philippines. it could hit taiwan as a category two on three. we will watch that closely. we'll be right back with more "new day" after the break. annoc y mouth is building up layer upon layer of bacteria, so destroy these layers with listerine®.

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i would. switch to comcast business internet and get the fastest wifi included. comcast business. built for business. this morning, families around the world obviously -- hearts are heavy for the victims of flight 17. we are talking about 298 people, not just a number, but people on board there. passengers came from at least 11 different countries. scientists, athletes and a family on vacation. one of the passengers was carleen kitzer studying from indiana university. ted rowlands has more on her life. >> reporter: 25-year-old carline kitzer made the same

impression on everyone she met. >> she could brighten anybody's day. she is just full of energy and so bright and thoughtful and kind. >> reporter: and talented. a former member of the rowing team and a doctoral student studying chemistry and teaching under graduate chemistry which she was fantastic at. >> very outgoing and very straight forward. she smiles a lot. she smiled a lot. >> reporter: the dutch citizen was taking a few weeks off from studies to visit family and travel. according to her friends, her father posted the news on her facebook page. saying, our brilliant beautiful daughter karlijin was in the plane that crashed with her boyfriend. we grieve for three reasons, for her and lau and the future they

had together. >> one of the things about karlijin is she is a genuine person. she always was honest with you. even if it was something you didn't want to hear. but you could always tell she cared. >> this, to me, is an act of cowardess and terrorism. you don't expect to get blown out of the sky as a civilian. it is stunning. >> reporter: people here are shocked because she had such a bright future ahead of her. she was supposed to graduate with her ph.d. next year, but because of the senseless way she had her life cut short. victor and christi. >> ted rowlands reporting for us. ted, thank you. first this hour, there's

been gunfire and explosions near the crash site of malaysia 17. >> this happens as some of the remains of the crash victims are being put in body bags and left near the side of the road. we have this report from roeutes at this hour that vladimir putin and angela merkel are in the need for a thorough investigation and peace talks with rebel forces. >> international monitors have been given approval to investigate the site and have more access than yesterday. the reports of explosions of gunfire nearby. >> 298 people were killed when the plane went down on thursday. the u.s. believes it was shot down by a missile. >> dutch police have been taking samples of the families of the crash victims. we want to bring in cnn's phil black at the crash site. >> you are in donetsk, phil, we

have been hearing reports of gunfire and explosions near the crash site. you were there earlier. i understand you heard mortar fire yourself? >> reporter: yes, christi. it was indirect fire. it was nearby the crash site. another reminder that this accident, this tragedy has taken place within a war zone and within an ongoing conflict area. it is another complication in trying to get the people and resources that are so desperately needed to that area to recover bodies and find out precisely what happened. >> phil, we have the reports this morning that the body bags are taken to this area and body parts are placed in them, but left on the side of the road. is this any indication that these rebels will allow the larger group of investigators in? >> reporter: well, it's a little

confusing because it is contradictory. the line about the body bags coming from european observers on the ground. we did not see it where we were, but it is a large crash site. a moment ago, the pro-russian leadership held a press conference and they defended the fact they are not moving the bodies. they say they are doing this deliberately. they want to leave the crash site intact so when ukrainian and international experts get there, they can examine it and without the site being corrupted. they are actually blaming the ukrainian government for not getting those experts to the site sooner. >> so, phil, if they are disputing that, are they talking at all in the press conference? did they mention the allegation that they, the rebels, gave the black box to russian authorities? >> reporter: yes, they deny that. they say they have not seen the

black box because they say they're not walking around. they are not going through the crash site in that detail. they believe that would be corrupting the scene as it were ruining the potential for an accurate investigation. that's what they're saying. we have seen pro-russian rebels walking around, moving around, not necessarily rifling or looking for things, but certainly moving around within the crash site itself in such a way that this leadership is now denying is taking place. they are of the view they are not contaminating that crime scene really in any way whatsoever. it is another shifting -- it's an exercise in shifting blame. we have seen this so much and we have seen and heard so much in terms of who is responsible for the accident, but the response to the tragedy should be. until the ukrainian government

and pro-russian rebels are able to find some common ground in what the response to this tragedy should be, there will be little dignity for its victims. >> that's what so many people are hoping to preserve for the 298 people there. phil black reporting from donetsk there. thank you so much. many layers here as phil said, a crime scene and crash site, both have to be preserved as two simultaneous investigations will begin. >> a tough task. it could be one of the biggest clues in the malaysia airlines flight 17. the ukrainian secret service intercepted communications with pro-russian rebels shortly after the jet was blown out of the sky. >> it is part of the intercepted recording we will let you listen in on.

[ speaking native language ] >> we need to point out that cnn has independently translated the audio. we do not know if the audio was edited or when it was recorded. let's talk about this with cnn analyst philip mudd and cnn analyst jeff wise. philip, when you hear those words, what is the first thing that comes to your head? >> a couple of things come to my head. validation from the u.s. side. do we have direct access to the ukrainians and what they have to determine the validity to that communication. the bigger issue is what we acquired from our communications intercept before and after the incident. let me make one clear comment here that we have not talked about. i was at ci for 25 years. i prepared the intelligence for

iraq. i watched the disaster after iraq. when you put the president of the united states out in 2014 to talk about intelligence and talk about how certain we are this was a rebel-fired missile, you don't put him out there in the wake of the iraq debacle without some certainty that it was a rebel missile. when i heard what you just played, that suggests to me that the white house knows more than the president is saying. >> you would expect that if the ukrainians have this and it is authentic, the u.s., which has been involved for some time now, knows more than what we are hearing. jeff, what can we learn about who is responsible from what is left there of the 777? >> well, i think it will be very difficult to determine by looking at the wreckage who is responsible because remember both the separatist rebels and

russians and indeed the ukrainians all operate this buk missile system. first of all, you want to look at the debris and try to determine if it indeed was shot down by a missile. that hasn't been to my mind definitively established. then, even if you do say look, this clearly shows the signs of proximity high explosive warhead detonation and so forth, that would indicate that it was a surface-to-air missile, you are then completely not at all closer to who shot it. remember, we are calling this an accident, but we don't know it was an accident. nobody is claiming responsibility. no one is admitting, which we did not mean to do this and it is a mistake. it is enveloped by fog at this point. >> another portion of the recording where you can apparently hear rebels talking

about the buk missile. let's listen here quickly. [ speaking native language ] >> we need to unload her somewhere to hide it is what they're saying. philip, what other intelligence besides this are investigators combing through and how substantial obviously is that one? >> i think it is substantial, but what jeff said, it is critically important. when i witness the fog of this in the 72 hours afterwards and weeks and months afterwards, people without experience tend to transition very quickly from

what they think or from one bit of intelligence, to what you have there, to what we know. we cannot confirm it was taken down by a missile. i listen to this intelligence and i know my peers running the program at ci, this is the generation i joined with, are looking at with some caution. you cannot take, even if this looks compelling, you cannot take one grain of sand and make a beach. let me make one point about time before i close here. the frustration here for us and for the families will be the time it takes to piece this together might extend to months or years. there is intelligence we will collect. things like the communications you just cited. there are people you know what happened here. the people who shot this missile and chain of command who ordered to shoot the missile. my bet is over the course of not months, but years, we gain access to these people.

the story might not be told for years to come. >> jeff, help us understand the scope of that. we know, of course, this is happening in a war zone, but there are many people who have called it the biggest crime scene in the world. the scope of what needs to happen for the investigation that many countries are calling for. >> if you are talking about examining and trying to investigate the accident site, it is a big job under the best of circumstances from the reports i have seen. the debris is widely scattered over kilometers wide area. it is a massive undertaking. you have nearly 300 bodies in various stages of completeness scattered around. it is not the best of circumstances. it is the opposite. we heard that the donetsk peoplepeople republic are criticizing that

they are not letting investigators in and they are being hostile to observers. it is a muddy picture. it is not clear who is in charge and what they want to happen. it is a dangerous situation at this point. >> all right. philip mudd and jeff wise, so great to have your minds in with us and get your perspective. thank you. >> my pleasure. >> thank you. >> let's talk more about the fighting in gaza now. the world is watching the body count rise and innocent civilians are caught in the crossfire. and remembering the victims. the people on malaysia flight 17. today, we are learning more about their lives and what they left behind. don't just visit new york

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new video coming in from the israeli military. you see them targeting tunnels in an attempt to get into israel from gaza. >> the israeli government found 13 tunnels in the conflict. this is a conflict that is deadlier by the day. more than 300 people have been killed inside gaza. the israeli military has had more fatalities. >> wolf blitzer is live in jerusalem. wolf, what do we know about the movements from the israeli military? >> reporter: it is very intense. you can see what is going on with the casualties.

a lot of civilian casualties. the israelis are making significant progress. one of the things going into the recent exchange with hamas, the intelligence community estimated 10,000 rockets and missiles. they believe half of them are now gone. 1,600 came into israel. most did not do much damage. some did damage. most of them did not do much damage thanks to the iron dome anti-missile system. they think in the last few days with the israeli ground forces on the ground in gaza as well as continued air strikes, they think 3,500 rockets and missiles have been destroyed. they believe at least 5,000 rockets and missiles remain in the stockpiles. they are going after those. there have been close exchanges. they had underground tunnels that hamas has going from gaza into israel.

israelis have found 13 of them. they think there are in the words of the idf, israeli defense force, about 10,000 more. this operation is continuing. it is not all high tech. listen to the exchange i had in the last hour with the idf spokesperson lieutenant colonel peter lerner. >> they have explosive donkeys. >> they have explosives on the animal. they set it off. >> reporter: that happened today? >> it was late last night. >> reporter: lerner said israeli intelligence heard about the explosive donkey. when they heard about it, they shot the donkey and all the explosives on the donkey exploded. that was that. he says this happened before. i have not heard about explosive donkeys before. victor, christi.

>> wolf, some people would take that as an indication that hamas doesn't have the power to overcome israel. is there any indication why hamas is not going to back down or at what point they might? >> reporter: they clearly are out gunned. the israelis are a very sophisticated modern military. hamas has some sophisticated rockets and missiles that can hit all of israel. they have some capabilities, but when it comes to the fire power, they are no match r the isra israe israelis. the egyptians wanted the authority. they wanted hamas to accept the cease-fire that the israelis put forward by the egyptian government. at this stage, hamas, apparently, some of the military and political leaders, they think they will achieve objectives if this continues a few more days in terms of easing israel's blockade of gaza or

opening up the border check points, not only between israel and gaza, but gaza and egypt. they are trying to make life better for palestinians. continuing the shelling of rockets and missiles, israelis are not going to backdown. the prime minister of israel is suggesting they will presumably if there is no cease-fire intensify the operation. >> all right. wolf blitzer, you and the crew stay safe. thank you so much. we are learning more about the revered aids reacher and the family and student who loved rugby and soccer. they are some of the victims on mh-17.

it's awful. i mean, those people are -- they're really in a way, martyrs to the cause we are going to australia to talk about. >> former president bill clinton there speaking to cnn about the crash of malaysia airline flight 17. >> president clinton knew a passenger on board on the way to the international aids conference in australia. >> other victims on the flight were students, vacationing families and a nun. cnn's alexandra field has a

closer look at those who will no longer walk the earth with us. >> you walk to the field and see the bodies and a man with his cracked iphone out of his pocket. >> thinking about those people being knocked out of the sky, it is pretty tough. >> it is unbelievable. it is not really real yet. >> reporter: the australian nun at the base school was heading home. >> she has been a great mentor. she is a personal friend. we're just devastated. the shock has been incredible. she very much brought love in all herr interactions. >> reporter: nick was traveling with his three young grandchildren. >> just gentle and clever and beautiful kids. >> most magnificent parents to us as kids. my sister and my brother david

and myself and just generally the most wonderful people. we are absolutely devastated to lose them. >> mom, we love you and we love you so much. we are going to miss you so much. >> reporter: families in pain now turning to prayer from malaysia to moscow. in amsterdam and ukraine. >> clothing everywhere. most of it is ripped off by the air. there are some suitcases and stuff. >> the deaths are outrage of unspeakable proportion. >> reporter: one american identified so far. karlijin was a rowing at indiana university. >> people have been listening to music and watching movies. they have been finding lots of headphones. >> reporter: the spokesperson for the world health organization about to celebrate his 50th birthday. >> his twin sister says he died

doing what he loved. >> reporter: joep lange, a leading aids researchers on the way to an hiv/aids conference. >> they were dedicated to saving lives and they were taken from us. >> reporter: they leave burning questions behind. what if? what for? we continue to learn the names of the people on board the plane and her the stoar the stories. christi and victor, we know families are waiting for loved ones to be returned home to them. >> unbelievable that grandfather and his three grandchildren. >> i cannot imagine. >> alexandra field, thank you. >> you know a second airline disaster in four and a half

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we return to our coverage of the crash of the malaysian jet. dutch police are taking dna samples from families of those

on the ill-fated flight 17 to try to determine who was there and how to proceed. >> and osce monitors,s organization for security in europe, they are surveying the scene on the ground. i want to talk about what this means politically as the investigation continues. let's bring in cnn military analyst and steve wallace with the office of accident investigation and miles o'brien. welcome to all. colonel, i want to start with you. there is, of course, as we reported over the last two days, the use of the buk missiles. if that is exactly what happened here, how does that change this conflict there between russia and ukraine? >> this has catapulted into the main headline.

the missile system is not new, but shooting this down has brought this to everybody's attention. maybe more attention than anybody wanted. there was a real tragedy here. the system was used against a ukrainian military aircraft and it hit it at 21,000 feet. that should have been a signal to everybody this is a game changer now. we have a new weapon system being used here. it puts civil aviation at risk. we see the tragic results of that. >> steven, apart from the black box, which we don't know where that is, either, we want to point out, but what else at the scene would give investigators clues as to what specifically happened here? >> the black boxes may be less important in this event than in the typical accident because it can just be a situation as we had with twa 800 where it is just recording and suddenly it just stops. they can do brilliant things now

analyzing sounds on the voice recorders to determine what might have happened as well. the investigators, again, this is a very unique situation. this is not a typical accident investigation. you have military and experts on and they talked about things like explosive bomb residues and evidence of proximity triggered weapons and things like that. i think it will be a very much joint effort of experts in that weaponry and as well as the civilian side, people can look at components of the aircraft and tell what's what. they can find out a lot on the ground. >> miles, just a few hours ago, live here on cnn, the malaysian transport minister said that in response to the question of why was the plane in this area, that many other airlines send jets through the area.

should they have been flying through an area that was a war zone? should there have been stronger guidance? >> victor, i think we know the answer now. they should not have been the a couple of things at play. the closest distance between two points is a straight line. they are looking for the most effective fuel-saving route. in the wake of the 370 loss, this has great financial pressure on it. now i looked at what the mh-17 flight yesterday did. they did not change the flight number. that is interesting. that is normally the custom in the airline industry. i watched the track of the flight. south over the black sea well clear of the war zone. the total time of that flight was about five minutes longer than the one the day before. we are not talking about a huge amount of time here. as much as anything, you can relate this back to the accidents that destroyed the

challenger and columbia. there are -- what happens in organizations, complex organizations is, they take a risk, they succeed and they i incorrectly conclude by doing that and succeeding previously, their odds are good that they will get away with it the next time. of course, that's wrong. that's a trap in human thinking. they become apathetic about the risk. it is a combination of financial pressures and being quite apathetic about what is the reality on the ground beneath you. >> lieutenant colonel francona, as we look at the possibility that russia was supplying the capabilities into the rebel hands, we looking outside the legal realm, i'm curious, do you think anyone will claim responsibility for this and there will be a scapegoat so to speak? >> there will be a scapegoat.

we are starting to see the finger pointing begin. as we get access to the aircraft, as the faa expert says, we will look at the residue and see what kind of warhead was used. it will probably be the sl-11 system. it comes from the ukrainian army or the russian army. we have who trained these guys to use it. i think there will not be just a scapegoat, but someone fingered as the culprit here. >> steve, can you tell us what the outlook is for defenses as it relates to missiles that could target these jets? we know that they explored that in that area. what is the issue for the

airlines? >> it really hasn't been like our presidential aircraft which is all classified. there is some extraordinary measures there. it has been discussed before. it really hasn't gotten very far. certainly, the greater threat or greater concern, i think, is shoulder-fired missile just from some rogue terrorist at the end of an airport runway. now if we are talking about trying to build airliners so they can be defend themselves against something as sophisticated as what appears to have been used here, that is quite a long stretch. i think a bit more like miles was talking about earlier, just avoiding the hot spots. you know, like with 9/11, we lacked perhaps imagination to see what was going to happen.

and here, you know, perhaps hindsight is perfect. we need to be much more conservative in avoiding war zones or avoiding any place where someone might have access to a weapon of the level of sophistication that was apparently used here. >> colonel rick francona and steven wallace and miles o'brien, thank you all. let's talk about gaza. the ground war there is waging. death toll rising above 300. we will hear next from the former legal adviser from the palestinian organization who is live from the west bank. i make a lot of purchases for my business. and i get a lot in return with ink plus from chase. like 50,000 bonus points when i spent $5,000

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♪ israeli tanks and soldiers are plunging deeper into gaza. for palestinians, the death toll continues to rise. >> palestinian officials say more than 300 people have died in the conflict. another 2,200 injured. the u.n. telling us up to 50,000 displaced from their homes as parts of gaza have been reduced to nothing but rubble. >> that led a lot of people to ask why this fight continues and why hamas continues the fight and when they are so clearly out gunned by israelis, why continue

the offensive. we are downed by janet bhutto. >> thank you for being with us. we know that egypt tried to broker a cease-fire that was agreed to at one point. even the palestinian authorities wanted hamas to back down. what will it take to get them to do so? >> i think it is very important to put this in proper political context. this is not just a question of quiting, but there has been an ongoing siege in place on the gaza strip for seven years now. the people in gaza are saying you cannot have a cease-fire without addressing the long-term issues and the blockade and siege in the gaza strip. it is for this reason they have been saying that we have to bring politics into the issue. this is not just a question of security, but we have to address the long-term issues. i say this because in the past, the israeli officials say they

quote, mow the lawn, meaning they will bomb gaza. until we address the political issues, the blockade and siege and denial of freedom for palestinians, i'm afraid we will not move forward. >> doesn't it happen through talks? we read the numbers this morning. more than 300. these are palestinians dying. >> that is precisely right. this is why the initial cease-fire that was attempted to be brokered was supposed to be brokered through the people in gaza which is hamas and other people in gaza. nobody bothered to speak to them. this is why it is very crucial and important for the united states rather than just sitting back and allowing israel to do this, for them to get involved with the international community to get involved and a comprehensive cease-fire is put in place and make sure israel is being held for their actions. >> and there is criticism over

the place of using civilians and human shields. looking at the horrible pictures of the children being killed, what is it that is keeping them there when they are receiving notices to get out of the area, are they choosing not to leave or is there no place for them to go? >> this is a tiny place. there is absolutely no place for anybody to go into the gaza strip. the gaza strip is all of 26 miles long and 12 miles wide at the widest point. they cannot exit into israel. they cannot go into egypt. they cannot live in the sea. at the end of the day, where israel is telling people to flee, there is no place for these people to go. even if they do flee, there is no place safe in the gaza strip as we saw with the massacre of children that happened on the beach. each and over time, it kills these children and they say, sorry, we're going to investigate. that is not good enough. particularly when a lot of the weaponry is coming from the united states. we should not as american

citizens be allowing this type of action to continue to take place in the names of u.s. >> diane, are they using children as human shields? >> absolutely not. that is one of the most offensive things i heard. the idea that palestinians will willingly hide behind somebody or children is cannon fodder. this is the type of allegations that perpetuating. >> not palestinians, but hamas. could hamas trick people to be in a certain place at a certain time? >> no mother, no child will put themselves in any harm's way. 80% of the people killed are civilians because israel is targeting civilians. if you can imagine how reprehensible it would be for me to say hamas is targeting israeli soldiers or trying to

hit the ministry of defense in the heart of tel aviv. we have to move away from what israel is saying and look at the numbers. 80% of the people killed are civilians. what they are doing is targeting civilians. >> diana butto, thank you very much. we will have a conversation with the former ambassador michael warren in a few moments. here is a question. would you be less likely to fly malaysia airlines because of the two recent tragedies, mh-370 and mh-17. some airlines have folded after historic crashes. how this airline may save face here. quicken loans will pay your mortgage for an entire year.

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new developments in the crash of flight 17. we will have live reports from ukraine and israel. we will talk with the former house of the affairs committee. will the u.s. do anything about it? that is coming up at the top of the hour. victor and christi. >> michael. thank you so much. "smerconish" airs at 9:00 a.m. eastern. malaysia airline is offering, we learned, a full refund to any ticket holder who does not want to fly on the

airline anymore. >> it is something within the next five days. they are trying to understand why there is hesitation here. with two major tragedies in the last four and a half months, what does the future look like for the airline? cnn's christina alechi reports. >> reporter: can the airline take a hit after the plane goes down? in most cases, yes. many have endured despite crashes and terrorist attacks. twa folded after 800 went down in 1996 and pan am went bust after terrorists brought down the plane over lockerbie, scotland, those airlines were struggling before the disasters. most other airlines are still flying today despite those. in 1973, shotdown korean flight 007. a swiss airplane crashed in 1996 in halifax.

five years later, no one survived flight 87 in bar harbor queens. now 9/11, is an extreme example. terrorists hijacked for the attacks, yet today, they are among the biggest airlines in the world thanks in part to the lifeline from the government. most don't take a hit in the bottom line. insurance covers most of the costs according to justin greene. a lawyer with the firm that represents 108. what happened to malaysia airline is unprecedented. 239 people went missing on flight 370. >> there will be people thinking about whether they want their children or their spouse or parents to be flying on this airline and i think that's

really the -- if i was -- it is more of a public relations problem for the airline than it is legal liability. >> reporter: there a good chance it won't falter. at the moment, neither has been blamed on the airline. >> it is a state airline. i doubt very much the government will let malaysia airline go out of business. >> reporter: ticket sales may slide, but national pride may trump profits. cristina aleschi, cnn money. >> thank you very much, cristina. we'll take a quick break and be right back.

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all right. we have good news if you are looking for something to do this summer. a nice get away. >> let's follow along as a country music star craig morgan takes us on a back stage tour of the grand old opry of today's insider. ♪ this old boy >> i'm craig morgan and nashville is my city. we will take you on the back stage tour of the grand old opry. first thing we do is check in and find out where our dressing room is. as a member, you have a mailbox so the fans can send mail to us here. not everybody that plays at the grand ole opry is a member. today, over 200 members. this is a list of every member past and present.

there are 19 dressing rooms. actually there are 18 because there is no number 13. you never know who you will run into. what is your favorite thing about being here at the opry? >> oh, porter, roy and standing in the big tall shoes. >> look who we have here. mr. rickey scaggs. during the flood of 2010, this is how high the water level got. this is the circle at the opry where the legends stand to perfo perform. thanks for spending time with me at the grand ole opry. >> welcome mr. craig morgan. ♪ i'm here on the back side of the city design where the world ♪ turns two lanes >> good music. >> indeed. we know we had a difficult morning talking about what is happening not only in eastern

ukraine, but also at the gaza and israel border there. that conflict. we will have a lot more. unpacking all the angles of stories coming up when we return at 10:00 a.m. >> right now we take you to "smerconish." two major stories are dominating our day. crowded passenger plane brought down in a war zone. who did it and why? israel goes into gaza. twice before, israel battled hamas to eliminate the threat of rockets. will this be different? those are our stories this hour. we will have live reports from ukraine and israel and experts. i'm michael smerconish. let's get started. new today, malaysia is demanding full access to the