white house has its suspicions. >> a group of separatists can't shoot down military transport planes or they claim shoot down fighter jets without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training. that is coming from russia. >> russia's president pointing his finger at ukraine, but not many people buy that. two questions hang over the tragedy, who and why? nearly since the plane vanished from radar many pointed fingers at pro-russian rebels. is this the smoking gun? video released of an anti-aircraft battery. the second question, why? was it all a mistake? ukraine says this proves it was the work of rebels.

but learning who did this or why won't bring back the victims. 298 souls gone leaving behind hundreds of grieving families. you'll hear those victims' stories and a sharp debate over who did this and what it means this hour only on cnn. >> an absolute tragedy. as we speak many of the people who were on the doomed airliner, their remains are still on the ground there in eastern ukraine, uncollected and unclaimed. experts tell us the recovery operation is a mess and unclear who is in charge and what is happening next, unfocused, unsecure and without anyone in charge. >> at the same time international reaction, western leaders are demanding russia get the rebel groups in line. one u.s. senator has had enough of what he sees as russia's aggression and introduced resolution to punish russia.

indiana republican said this recently, when you have a bully in the playground you have to stand up to him and not sit there and calculate the potential economic risk, obviously a criticism of the obama administration policy so far. on the phone we have senator dan coats. you said you want to kick russia out of the g-8 and close u.s. consulates there. these are tough words. looking at russia's behavior since the crash and denial of involvement and evidence that russia supplied weapons systems to the rebels who shot the plane down. are you more resolves to take the steps? >> i am more resolved. what russia had done to crimea and what they are fomenting in eastern ukraine they are going to keep doing things like this if we don't stand up to them. this is a defining moment.

we need to verify and prove that russia had some role in this effort here. they are the ones that sort of lit the fires in eastern ukraine and supplying the weapons. their proxys may have been responsible. that still makes russia complicit. i think they need to pay a very heavy price for what they have done previously and what their role might be here. obviously we want to verify that first. i have been calling in tough sanctions for quite some time on the basis that russia has been the aggressor and holds the responsibility to settle this thing down. >> the question, senator coats, is what will make a difference here. the u.s. and europe used modest sanctions and public con demnation. i want you to listen to what congressman adam shift said to us a few moments ago. he raising the question about

whether it is time to help ukraine militarily. >> the only other option we haven't deployed is escalating our support for ukraine militarily. we are providing economic and intelligence support. there is a risk if we go too far in that direction we escalate the crisis rather than try to contain it. i think we can explore other ways to help ukraine without getting into sophisticated weapons systems, things to help them logistically to deal with problems created by the separatists. >> the military support has been simple supplies and electronic generators. do you think the u.s. should be considering real weapons even the possibility of heavy weapons to right the balance between the ukrainian military and pro-russian rebels which are

armed by russia. >> depending on russia's response to this and verification we are looking for i think that ought to be on the table to be considered. what has been done to date with some of the sanctions is far too little and far too late. we have not taken a strong lead. the europeans have not taken a strong lead in terms of imposing economic sanctions to cripple the russian economy. we need to stop the export of arms and find ways to by pass their export of energy to europe. i think it is a defining moment for europe. you are going to sit back and let russia nibble away piece after piece of eastern europe as long as no one stands up to them and really makes them pay a price it will continue. i would rather see them step up now on tough sanctions and we can weigh what we can do or might need to do in terms of giving more support to the

ukrainian army. >> senator coats, poppy harlow here, what we know is clear the sanctions that have been stepped up by president obama this administration clearly haven't made a dent to russia in terms of it almost fortified their will. i will say, though, it is very different for european countries in terms of the economic impact they face if they do agree to significantly ratchet up sanctions along with the united states. how do you think the u.s. congress and president can persuade europe to get on board with that given what we know economically can do to them? >> the president and i know has been in touch with european leaders. but europe needs to make a decision as to how it is going to respond to this. they would like to do it with us. i think if we can get agreement on much tougher sanctions imposed on russia particularly on the economic front and

willingness to support if necessary ukrainians but the effort is to get putin and fellow separatists to stand down. he doesn't see he is paying the price for not doing that. and until we stand up to this bully in the playground it is just going to continue. >> senator coats, i wonder if we reached the point where the president cannot get europe on board that there is still difficulty in building european consensus and europeans aren't willing to face their own economic cost from sanctions against russia and dependence on natural gas, what if the u.s. took steps on its own. u.s. has tremendous economic leverage and could ban russian companies from u.s. markets. should u.s. act on its own in the event it cannot get europe on board? >> we might have to for the sake of the future of the stability in europe. but, as i said before, this is a

defining moment for europe. if they back down now that is going to create a very serious situation. acting united, united states and europe in dealing with this with tough sanctions against russia and making them pay a major price is actually, i think absolutely necessary to achieve a result here without escalating this process. and so whether it is ukraine or whether it is fighting the support for separatists, supplying weapons or whatever, russia is complacent in all of this. that is where we need to target our efforts. >> senator coats, republican from indiana thank you for taking the time to join us. >> our thanks to you. we appreciate it. european officials at the crash site call this part of eastern ukraine the world's biggest crime scene and one of the most dangerous places in the world right now because of all of the fighting going on in the

middle of an explosive and unstable cross border armed conflict. i want to bring in former inspector general of the u.s. transportation department, mary schiavo. we have former faa inspector and we have miles o'brien and national security analyst and former cia operator bob baier. what we were talking about with senator coats in terms of what extent should the united states and perhaps our european allies support ukraine militarily? >> it is tempting. we have to look at the history of putin's expansionism. first 2008 was in georgia, the annexation invasion of crimea. this is clearly an act of war, shooting down a civilian airliner like this. putin is a bold line kgb officer

who disagreed with the breakup of the soviet union. he is making every effort to see what he can restore from it including taking the eastern cra ukraine. we have to draw the line somewhere whether supporting milita militarily. >> from what you know of vladimir putin what would you do? what would be more effective? >> i ink the we have to hurt him. he has enormous amounts of assets outside of the system. we have to come up with the unified plan to really make this hurt. we have to put him in a position, also, where he can under cut the strong nationalists who have encouraged him to go into ukraine. this should all be done quiet, back channels. we just simply cannot let this drift as is or we will get a

wider conflict. >> mary schiavo with your great experience investigating crashes, one of the tactics we have already seen from the russian side is delay here, one great mystery, where are the black boxes? have they been taken away by prorussian rebels? how much time would you need to come to a crash scene like this and make a hard determination about what happened and build the case for what happened? how much time would you need to get that done? >> given the size of the crash scene that is a first and foremost something that would take a long time. i would think you could come in and work diligently if they let in enough people to do the work. they need hundreds to get it done. once they mark the debris field they can remove it at the time if they are in a big hurry. at a minimum ideally months. if they were given a couple of weeks they could do it. >> in a couple of weeks assuming

they get the access and if the area is safe for access. poppy and i have been talking about the risk to the inspectors going there. it is far from ideal conditions. >> and susie has been talking about the risk of disease, bio hazards et cetera from the site. the bodies have been lying there since this happened on thursday. to you, colonel francona when you talk about whether or not this was knowledge that this was a civilian aircraft this was an aircraft shot out of the sky. 298 innocent lives lost. can you talk about the technology. how easy is it to know what you are shooting at? >> the problem is all we have seen so far is the transporter launcher and radar called telar. it has radar in the front and four missiles. that is what they use. the problem is the buk system consists of three other vehicles that go with it.

one of the vehicles carries acquisition radar. if you had that information you would know this is a civilian airliner. it would have been squawking a civilian code and at the right altitude. >> it can operate without that. >> it can and i think that is what we are seeing here. we are seeing this operating in stand alone mode. when they turn on a tracking radar it finds a big piece of metal in the sky. you don't know what it is. if they see a piece of metal in the sky and acted on that, that violates every protocol we would operate under. >> it is incredible to me just thinking over the last year speaking to intelligence officials who do counter terror, their nightmare scenario had been terror groups getting missiles that could take down airplanes. you have a militant group inside europe with a surface to air

missile that can shoot 33,000 feet into the air. it is a leap from where we were in terms of fear. i wonder, bob, how much of a jump in capability and danger is this for passenger travel around the world when you have this happen? this is right in the middle of europe. >> you know, you are absolutely right. what i have been thinking about the last couple of years are the surface to air missiles disappearing from libya and other places and afghanistan. if you would have told me a year ago it would be a russian advance system like the sa-11 i wouldn't have believed it. this is a huge leap threatening aviation all over the world. if we don't come to some sort of resolution and find out who did it there is no way to contain this because these systems are available throughout the middle east and in the former soviet union. who is in control?

i mean, who was given these missiles? this is clearly a rogue group. without knowing their motivations and future intentions we don't know when the next airplane will be shot down. >> i want to get to miles o'brien. to you miles and then david, you can jump in. a lot of talk is about the black box. i know there are other things that are significantly important here in terms of an investigation finding out more. we know a fair amount but in terms of finding out more what is most important? >> it appears we know an awful lot about who pulled the trigger here. i'm sorry i'm taken aback. it is chilling to hear this talk about aggressive people with partial training and a partial system shooting first and asking questions later. that is such a fundamental threat to aviation and most everything we hold dear. what we need to do obviously,

the u.s. has assets that were trained in this area that track the infrared signature from the rockets so we can identify where it came from and back track with imagery and where the truck came from and the radar signature of the device itself is something the satellite system would be able to capture, as well. in addition we need to hear what happened over at air traffic control, decisions about the rerouting because of potential weather. were the pilots notified? if we do get the black box we will have confirmation on altitude and how the aircraft broke up and how long people were frankly tortured before the impact. >> so hard to think about. >> the thing to look at here is to think about our system of notification. these missiles are capable of taking the airplanes out the rules for how we notify pilots, airplanes and airlines can't keep up with that.

it doesn't have the ability to have the intelligence necessary to protect the systems. this is a failure of a system in place to protect us from this that didn't work. >> it is chilling and terrifying and caught in the middle 298 innocent lives. we will talk a lot more about the victims throughout the hour. a lot of us could not believe -- thank you to our panel by the way, a lot of us could not believe malaysia airlines could lose another plane months after losing mh-370. our next guest wrote an op-ed. more straight after the break. we're trying our best to be role models.dels. we don't jump at the sound of the opening bell,

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welcome back. malaysia airlines has taken a lot of criticism for flying over the contested area of eastern ukraine, in fact, a war zone. passenger planes follow specific routes cleared by a number of national and international agencies and the path that mh-17 followed was being used by other airlines. ukraine warned them not to fly below 32,000 feet. james fallows wrote today saying, quote, therefore when they crossed the zone at 33,000 feet they were neither cutting it close nor bending rules but doing what other airlines had done in a way they assumed was

both legal and safe. james, thank you very much. i appreciate it and i enjoyed reading your piece today. >> thank you. >> i have to ask you. i fly a lot as do you. i fly over europe a lot and have flown over ukraine. a 1,000 foot margin of error. the ukrainians said don't fly below 32,000 feet because of concern of military planes shot down. other airlines were flying. that to me as a flyer is not a safe margin of error. >> the way the airline system works is each individual airline cannot afford or would be practical to have its own intelligence unit assess risks all around the world so therefore they rely on international and national aviation bodies to say here is where you can fly and here is where you cannot fly. the idea is that they set the margins of error within the boundaries. here would be an example.

suppose there were some crime in a town and police set up a detour for traffic to go around. if you follow their detour you would assume they are taking responsibility for what is a safe margin. malaysia airlines flying the same route the same day were relying on the established system that now we may have to re-examine. if not malaysia airlines fault is it the international agency's fault for not having set an area or diverted from the area entirely which several other airlines made the decision not to fly. is this a failure of the regulators? >> it is a new phenomenon. it is a significant theme of people saying this was a risk that was not contemplated beforehand. the military surface to air missiles not just terrorists and criminals but actually military equipment will be used to shoot

down airliners at altitude. we don't know if it was intentional or miscommunication but a risk that wasn't contemplated by the rules in place. a few airlines, air france decided to detour. singapore air didn't and malaysia didn't because until this episode it wasn't something that anybody involved had contemplated and now they will. >> no question. for beyond this area i just wonder how much of a game changer this is because we have seen and i cover counter terrorism and talk to intelligence officials all the time. the amount of attention focused on islamist militant groups and watching them in 1,000 different countries every moment and are very worried about this. you have this game changer. we don't know how many surface to air missile launchers are in that war zone. how much does this change just the feeling of safety and flying

in that part of the world? this sounds to me like people have to sit down at the table and decide how we are going to deal with this. >> here is a practical illustration of the difference it makes in the time where shoulder mounted weaponry seemed to be the main threat. airliners would worry mainly on takeoff and landing when they were close to the ground and moving slowly. if you had missiles that could shoot at cruise altitudes what everybody assumed was a margin of safety suddenly you have to look at that in a different way. i think there will be serious reconsideration as there was after the attacks back in 2001. >> these are frightening prospects here, frightening problems to deal with that a few days ago no one was thinking about. we appreciate you taking the time. >> thank you. the president had big plans for his second term but has had to face crisis after crisis overseas and now a show down with russia.

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commentators here. there has been talk in washington about what the u.s. should be doing in response to this and the bigger strategic moves. there had been criticism of the president on thursday after his remarks when we first learn of the tragic, tragic incident. obviously his tone and words changed a lot on friday. you think the president made an error in his rhetoric at least. >> i absolutely think he made an error in his first reaction to the tragedy. he said this may have been a tragedy. we know it was. 298 people lost his lives. his remarks seemed short, glib, unfocused and went into making jokes about being in delaware and went on to get a burger and host two fundraisers. none of that seemed appropriate to the enormity of the event and the potential global international political consequences. he did seem to get a serious tone the next day. we will have to see what this means in terms of u.s. action,

leadership and real policy change when it comes to russia. >> on friday some of the things he said in expanded remarks an outrage of unspeakable portions. he named specifics including training, heavy arms weapons and anti-aircraft weapons. mark, you have been defending the president on this. >> on his response on saturday. thursday it was a rhetorical miscalculation. 298 people dying is always a tragedy. i think what he may have under estimated is how much america would care at the moment it seemed like a european issue. >> it is a global issue. >> i think at that moment he may have under estimated it. the second piece is how he responds friday and saturday. i think he is responding appropriately now trying to round up the troops and trying to get europe invested in this. this only succeeds if europe

buys in it. i think the president moves forward. >> so critical in this there is the optics and people talk about the words chosen and used but beyond the optics is strategy. >> i want to put you on the spot because the strategy has been strong words from the president and in a gradual ratcheting up at the cost against russia to change behavior on the ground. that hasn't worked and the shooting down of a passenger airliner. has the president's policy on ukraine and russia been a failure? >> from his own words and remarks on friday he said vladimir putin has the power to exercise authority over these prorussian separatists and he has not. so from the president's words you know the president's approach to this has failed in taming russia or these pro-russian separatists. in terms of moving forward we are already seeing the crash site is being looted and material is being spirited away. we need to secure the crash site

just as an investigative matter. that might require troops on the ground, nato troops potentially to secure the area. >> that is why it is interesting to think about it as an obama policy towards ukraine and russia. i think you think of it as a global policy. i think europe hasn't bought in. they have a much bigger dog in the fight, the energy market is much more important to european countries. it is easy for us to say sanctions, sanctions. to ratchet sanctions from europe is a big move. >> investment in russian businesses, accessibility to financial markets and loans and so forth. >> president has been calling for that. >> and they did tighten them. i think they can do it further. the president can be more effective in getting european leaders to buy in. >> it is interesting when you talk about whether the sanctions

have been effective. we know to this point that they haven't and the big question is how do you get still a question we asked senator dan coats is how to get europe on board when the economic impact to them is so much tougher and so much more painful economically than it is on the united states. do you think that there is anything else at this point the u.s. can do or say to get them on board? >> there is such a thing as politics and 298 people lost their lives and the global outrage and european governments needing to respond to this tragedy in terms of punishing these separatists effectively. we should be talking about possibly military assistance to the ukrainian government. >> i don't think we have the stomach, the political legs or resources. i'm not sure if that is the proper response. i think economic sanctions have to be first and second move here. i don't think europe has a choice. two weeks ago they had the

luxury of pushing back. now they cannot. they have no choice but to do this now. >> we will watch how it all unfolds. thank you both for coming in. how does a rag tag bunch of rebel fighters shoot down an airline? are they really a rag tag bunch of rebel fighters? that is a question for investigators and leads to another who would afford them the sophisticated weapons? we will talk about that and what russia's involvement may have been next. we will tackle that. [ male announcer ] this is the cat that drank the milk... [ meows ]

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welcome back. pro-russian rebels in ukraine are the primary suspects in the downing of malaysia airlines flight 17. who are the rebels and how closely are they allied with russia? >> reporter: malaysia airlines flight 17 shot down near the town of torres, a rebel held

stronghold in eastern ukraine. fighting has intensified in recent weeks between rebels and ukrainian forces. >> the last several weeks russian-backed separatists shot down a ukrainian transport plane and ukrainian helicopter and claimed responsibility for shooting down a ukrainian fighter jet. >> reporter: quote, we warned you to stay out of our skies was posted by someone claiming to be pro-russian rebel commander. that post was removed not long after the aircraft was identified as a passenger plane. >> over the last several days this has escalated which cull miinated in yesterday president obama announcing a series of very tough sanctions to penalize russia for its support of these

separatists. >> reporter: russian president vladimir putin denied providing help to these separatists but prime minister of the self-declared people's republic in charge of rebels and he says hundreds of fighters. >> pro-russian separatists backed by russia and began to take over strategic administrative buildings, airports, some of the military bases. they were being aided and abetted by russian special forces. >> reporter: both sides had access to the type of russian made buk missile launcher believed to have brought down malaysia airlines flight 17 and some analysts believe the pro-russian rebels could have seized it after storming a ukrainian military base. satellite imagery may pin point where the missile launch took place further narrowing who was in control and identifying who was in charge of the shoot down

of malaysia airlines flight 17. with us now to talk more about this we have cnn foreign affairs reporter and cnn military analyst rick francoeura and bob bayer. one of the questions here not just russia arming the rebels but russia adding people to the ranks of the rebels, u.s. officials have said they believe they were russians among the ranks of the rebels fighting. do we know how many are there? this also gets to a key question in light of the plane being shot down, is it possible that russians were around that missile or with the team that launched the missile? how integrated are russians into the force? >> that's a great question. anecdotally they are very close to it. this is a very sophisticated weapons system. for instance in the '80s the cia

trained afghans on missiles. we had to simplify the weapon to get a lock on. that's an uncomplicated weapon. you can imagine what it is like. you have to have constant maintenance on this equipment. you need to train people. it is not a question of pushing some of the weapons across the border and hoping they figure out how to use them. you actually would have to have russian specialists on the ground in eastern ukraine. i don't think we will get conclusive proof of that there is a preponderance of evidence. >> at a minimum u.s. officials say it is working theory at weapons system came across the border. a frightening prospect came up in our conversation with the previous panel, this idea that now civil aviation at cruising altitude is at risk, something we never thought of before really because you have weapons systems like this in the hands of really militants or terrorists, whatever you want to

call them in eastern ukraine. how much of a risk is there now that this is not a one off. we don't know how many weapons systems like this are out there. they can make a mistake like this again. >> this can happen in many parts of the world. if you look at radar maps today of aircraft flying now over baghdad to these areas where these weapons exist. so this could happen again. hopefully it won't. when we talked about civil aviation and protecting in the past we worry about the takeoff and landing phase where you use shoulder fired missiles that we gave the afghans. most people never imagined we would see this sophisticated weaponry in the hands of some rogue group. and to launch this thing without any concern or protocol to make sure what you are aiming at, this was so improperly done it is just a disgrace.

>> it really just also gets to the tremendous risk that russia took on by giving these kinds of weapons to this group of rebels. we talk a lot about what is russia trying to accomplish here but in a large part it is about destabilizing eastern ukraine. that is really part of the goal of his goal. can't we say that putin has achieved what he wanted there? >> well, that has been his goal all along, jim. i think one of the things that he might have seen by the event that clearly this was not his plan a. i mean, downing a few ukrainian military aircraft and these separatists have done so over recent weeks wouldn't incur the wrath of the international community but when you have so many casualties from so many different nations there is a question whether this is a tipping point for president putin. will this cause him to rethink his support for the separatists?

there is a danger of this coming out of control for him. some of these separatists don't think president putin has gone far enough. they want to see a full on invasion of eastern ukraine. if they are not seeing that from president putin they may start to ignore some of his orders and go rogue in a sense. he really needs to rethink his support for the separatists, there are many ways to destabilize ukraine. we have seen a lot of that in the past. i think he still has his eyes on destabilizing the situation whether he is so overt about it in the future remains to be seen. >> you have din your work as a cia analyst and analyzed leaders just like putin. what do you think from the outside people say the guy is nuts what is he trying to accomplish here? there is a method to this madness, right? do you think that he is sticking to a plan and feels he is getting what he wants out of eastern ukraine? >> you know, that is a big guess

but he was assigned at eastern germany when the soviet union collapsed. he was a mediocre kgb officer. he has always said if he were given the opportunity he would do his best to piece it back together. more than that he is appealing to a constituency of hard lying russian nationalists who believe it is russia's moral obligation to protect the near abroad and that is russians living outside the borders of russia. it is more than just destabilizing the eastern ukraine. he wants it back under moscow's umbrella. i don't see him giving that up easily. in spite of this tragedy. >> that is something we have to remind our viewers, there is a very different view of this conflict from inside russia than we have looking from the outside. one question for you, rick. a big part of this has been ukrainian officials releasing

evidence of russian involvement here including recorded phone conversations between pro-russian rebels and russian handlers. very quickly, very high quality and very timely. do you have doubts about the authen tisity of this evidence? >> bob and i used to do this for a living. i don't think it gets this good. when you needed a piece of information it was there. when you needed a video of a buk launcher leaving it was there. when you needed another conversation talking about delivery it was there. i don't recall in my service it ever being that good. >> well, fair question. and this is a war of words and propaganda as much as everything else. i want to thank you for joining us. always appreciate it. vickms of the tragedy are being mourned around the globe. online friends and loved ones are finding their way to grieve and finding special meaning in

victims' last posts on social media. we will have more on that after this break.

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for those who knew the 298 passengers innocent lives lost aboard flight 17 the grief is unimaginable. for most families it is very far from home. since this happened, laurie, on thursday you have been digging online because that is where we find so much about these people before we can even reach their families. what are you finding in terms of the trib uts being made? >> looking at folks and facebook profiles they have turned into these tributes in their deaths. i want to tell you about one of the victims. his facebook page is literally a tribute to his life with folks commenting on it with memories. i want to read you comments. one says my surrogate brother

who am i going to tease now? at least i know you found your one and only in elaine. not to worry we will see each other again someday, gone too >> they're referring to his girlfriend who was also lost in a plane crash. you get a glimpse into the idea these people have loved ones. another comment. amil, we don't share the same birthdays, we share memories. i'll never forget the drunken nights and our birthday, the times we played pool at stones, sat in the bathtub hiding, the times we'd jump in the pool with clothes and sit at the back lodge, opposite lodge, et cetera. i can't believe it, rest in peace. the world will miss you. so when you again to get these glimpses into the lives of these folks whose lives were lost, you just understand how full of life they were and these online profiles are very much a place for people to mourn. we've seen that to a degree. >> and 80 children, at least 80

children lost, some infants lost in all of this. there were also people posting on social media, posting about where they were going, one to bali, talking about their excitement for the adventure they were going on. other people were posting on instagram they were nervous about the flight. looking back, we can glean a lot. >> absolutely, one passer, his name was regis from the netherlands and worked for a nightclub there. he was so excited to go to bali, put on his facebook page, going back to my roots, see you soon. it's ominous looking back because that was his last check-in. it's filled with all these comments. he posted on instagram a picture of his passport and ticket with a caption saying, amsterdam, kuala lumpur, bali, adios. it has 30,000 comments with people mourning for him and looking back in retrospect knowing what was going to happen. and what happened to them. >> it's so important, thank you for bringing us -- those are, we're talking about two of the people, three of the people lost of 298.

it's important as we talk about the politics of all this, what happens next. u.s./russia, geopolitics to keep the victims front and center in all of this because the mourning is just beginning for all those that love them. thank you. appreciate it. other news knew. more people were killed today in gaza than any single day of the latest rash of violence with israel. we're going to have the detailing for you, next. thing. can i get my actual credit report... like, the one the bank sees? [ male voice ] sheesh, i feel like i'm being interrogated over here. [ male voice ] she's onto us. dump her. [ pay phone rings ] hello? oh, man. that never gets old. no, it does not. [ female announcer ] not all credit report sites are equal. experian.com members get personalized help and a real credit report. join now at experian.com with enrollment in experian credit tracker.

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and get the fastest wifi included. comcast business. built for business. a quick reminder, cnn's coverage continues at the top of the hour. a two hour special edition of "erin burnett out front," stay tuned for that. latest on the crash, investigation, straight ahead at 8:00 eastern. a quick check now of the other stories making headlines. even after dark, heavy fighting did not stop today between israel and hamas militants if gaza. explosions and smoke colored the sky over gaza city. after a day when more than 60

people died in that territory. palestinian officials say that's the heaviest one-day death toll in this current wave of fighting. two israeli soldiers were also reported killed. you'll hear directly from the israeli prime minister tomorrow morning at 8:00 eastern here on cnn. benjamin netanyahu and his conversation with our own wolf blitzer. tune in or set your dvr for 8:00 a.m. eastern and 8:00 a.m. pacific time. >> certainly look forward to that. also making news, general motors has ordered dealers to stop selling certain models of cadillacs. this is because of a problem with an ignition switch that if bumped can shut off without warning disabling the airbags, anti-lock brakes and power steering. the cadillac says it doesn't have a fix for now. for now, cadillac dealers are told not to deliver the affected models. move comes on top of 8 million other gm victims recalled for defective ignition switches. a collective aww around the

world today of prince gorge. the palace released the photo of the little guy a few days before his birthday. there will not be extravagant event for the toddler, just low key family time. >> i'm poppy harlow in new york. thanks for being with us. >> i'm jim sciutto in washington. coming up, special two-hour edition of "erin burnett out front." feet...splashing. better things than the joint pain and swelling of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. if you're trying to manage your ra, now may be the time to ask about xeljanz. xeljanz (tofacitinib) is a small pill, not an injection or infusion, for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers have happened in patients taking xeljanz. don't start xeljanz if you have any infection, unless ok with your doctor.

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and this is a special two-hour edition of "outfront: shot down malaysia 17." good evening to our viewers in the u.s. and around the world, special edition of "outfront." we begin with breaking news of malaysia airlines flight 17. leaders of the pro-russian rebels is conceding the plane was shot down but denies his group had anything to do with it. this comes on the day of many developments and i want to go through the very latest that we have for you

ukrainian officials saying they're moving bodies and tampering with evidence at the crash site. images of people rummaging through the debris, quote/unquote, down right disgu disgusting. ukraine's prime minister tells cnn someone well trained fired at flight 17 and the counterintelligence says three buk missiles russian made crossed from russia to ukraine accompanied by russian nationals. rush ssia denies any involvemen. angela merkel speaking to president vladimir putin today asked him to support the rebels to allow crash investigators full access to the site. we're going to be joined by one of those investigators tonight. finally, we have the full list of the names of passengers on board mh-17. malaysia airlines released that data today. we're going to be talking a lot more about those victims in the program. 2 the jn 9 298 people waiting the dignity of a burial. we begin tonight at the crash site, being called the biggest

crime scene in the world. i want to go to chris cuomo, he was there today. chris, i know you saw some horrible and unforgettable things. >> there's no question about that, and the worst part, erin, is for the families that are still waiting for answers. the talk-to-action ratio in this situation has been deplorable. there's no question that you have all-out conflict in eastern ukraine. it's 3:00 in the morning here. moments ago we were hearing gunfire not too far away from where we're standing right now. who did this and why and what to do about it are very important questions. but there's a bigger immediacy here. for all the talk about the victims, very little has been done for them. it takes a very long time to get out to this site. you see, tons of the scars of the conflict going on here. a lot of guns are being pointed at you. there's a lot of hostility and violence. but when you get there, you see a completely unsecured scene. you see militants who are far more interested in a show of

force than in any type of inspection. we couldn't understand whether it was just exhaustion because most of us haven't slept since thursday in trying to get to this remote place, but for a situation to be so raw, erin, two days in, bodies left out in the heat, dogs in the area, you know, and really the dignity, the word dignity of the dead. for all the memorials around the world, erin, you go there and you cannot help but be disappointed with how little respect for this investigation to get you the clear answers you want about culpability here, and the respect for the dead. only today did we get some of the first pictures of people putting the bodies in bags, getting them out of the sun, loading them on to trucks, and then taking them away. we don't know where. and it's hard for the inspectors to get in because if there's full-blown conflict, and the question, erin, that has to be asked is, who will fill the vacuum? ukraine is not in control of the area where this crash is. who's going to help get the

answers you need there? >> and chris, let me ask you, in terms of the dutch prime minister, he said there were images of people rummaging through the debris which he called downright disgusting. i think you could use worse words than that. let me ask you, though, did you see any of that? >> reporter: i did not see looting, but i'll tell you what i did see, or more importantly, erin, what we're not seeing. unfortunately, you and i have covered crashes before. where are the personal affects? the watches, the wallets, the cell phones, the computers? you know, the trappings of somebody's life and existence. all you see there are things that are no longer valuable, and that's very troubling. and yes, there are rumors, and yes, i had an armed man who was just walking through our hotel lobby joke and point to his wrist and saw a lot of new wristwatches out there today. hopefully he was just making a morbid joke. you'd like to believe the looting isn't possible, but the reports are rampant. i'll tell you, people are lucky to have the media in this particular situation.

very often, the media can be like vultures, but if they weren't out there documenting the scene, by the time the real inspectors and investigators get there, the integrity would be completely gone. you'd have almost no way of knowing what this looked like when it first happened if the media weren't out there risking themselves to take pictures even with militants pointing guns at them and wanting them to get out of the way. >> chris cuomo, thank you very much. chris is going to with us throughout our special program tonight. i want to bring in our special analyst, aviation analyst, mary schiavo, and aviation correspondent richard quest and host of "quest means business." they're all "out front." let me start with you, richard. what we're hearing from chris is very sobering. he's careful to say he had not seen looting, but those personal effects, watches, things like that didn't seem to be there. >> no, i'm not telling you that, but there have been reports, and, indeed, the self-proclaimed prime minister talked about yes, some credit cards had gone missing, in one of his statements, in his interview, so, yes, there has been looting.

i mean, let's call a spade a shovel in this situation. it is quite clear that has happened. last night, you and i talked on "out front" and i said my big concern and worry was how this moves forward. 24 hours later, i'm even more concerned because we're now two days in. the bodies decomposing at a tremendous rate. i'm not going to be distasteful, but you heard chris talk about dogs. this is -- even if they started now to get people in, it would be another day and a half to two days before it could ramp up. so i still cannot see how this doesn't get much worse before it gets better. >> and mary, when we talk about removing evidence, which, of course, the ukrainian government has alleged the rebels are doing, what evidence could be being removed that would be central to figuring out the crucial questions here of who did it, when did they do it, from where did they do it and

with what did they do it? >> virtually any piece of wreckage or any body can contain the evidence that's necessary. pan am, people walked side by side and the key piece was the size of my thumbnail. anything can contain the smoking gun trail to the criminals who did this, but, for example, the explosive device has pieces of metal in it. you can see those entry points on to the aircraft or luggage or persons. leaves an explosive residue that's very discernible and you can determine what it is. if it came from this kind of a missile, et cetera. virtually every piece can be a very valuable piece of evidence. >> every piece can be valuable, but to the point, i suppose i'm trying to see if there's any optimism in terms of bringing the people who did this to justice, it would sound like what you're saying, if you're talking about residue, that is something that can be removed because it's simply on too many pieces of the plane. >> and a huge part of every investigation is also parts of the investigation that aren't at the crime scene. in pan am 103, for example,

there are 15,000 interviews. in the 9/11 cases we conducted 157 depositions. behind the scenes also there's a tremendous amount of forensic evidence that is gathered through other methods, so i certainly don't mean to suggest that the guilty can't be brought to justice. i think they can. it's compromised by not having a good investigation scene. >> and david, will we be able to know exactly what happened? you know, where this missile hit, what happened onboard that plane? will we figure that out? i guess the black boxes, perhaps, might be important in that. we don't know where they are right now. >> indicative of what might happen, because if it's a sudden explosion, the black boxes may record a sound, may not. but looking at the wreckage, it's clear that the tail section is where the missile would have hit because the tail section is removed and there's no flame or fire in that area. so we're looking at -- >> so, wait, how does that tell you that? i mean, that seems obvious to you, but some people might say,

if the missile hit there why does the missile section appear intact? >> the missile throws debris at the aircraft. it explodes before it hits and impacts, so with that a case to me, those pieces of debris separated the tail from the aircraft. so the aircraft was -- the tail was gone before the aircraft went down or caught on fire. so this piece of the tail is where you would find the black boxes. if the black boxes were in that tail, though, there's a possibility they broke loose from the aircraft at that point. if that happened, they could be anywhere up around the countryside. they're heavy boxing but falling from 32 ,000 feet. you have to consider that. the other thing about the tail section, if the tail section did come off like i suspect, the nose of the aircraft would have been much heavier, would have dropped down and driven the aircraft straight down which would explain a lot about what the descriptions of the bodies falling and the pieces of aircraft out of digit sections. that would give us a better explanation instead of an inflig eruption of everything to the

aircraft. >> up of the reasons we're seeing this grotesque number of bodies over such a wide area is because of the way, and the point of flight which this incident happened. the plane was in the cruise. it had been flying for several hours. people were walking around the cabin. their seat belts were undone. and, therefore, when the aircraft fell apart, and that's what effect ively happened, the missile disabled, crippled the plane. that's why you've got this extraordinarily awful scene of so many people. >> a wide range. what people find so hard here, i can see it on all of your faces, imagining that situation. people wanted to think if this happened this happened quickly and wouldn't know it happened. it sounds like what you're all saying is that may not be what happened. >> it's difficult to say. there is a possibility that it

was sudden, that the deaths were sudden because of the fact if that happened, as i described, the pressure inside of the aircraft would have been such that it would fot be survivable. it would be an instantaneous death. >> that's all you can hope for is that it was instantaneous. that's what everyone would hope for. richard, i guess the bottom-line question is, do you think at this point that investigators getting in are going to be able to get these crucial answers that they need, or to chris cuomo's point, is it possibly too late? >> oh, no, no, no. it's not too late. no, no, no. you're talking -- >> i agree, it's not too late. >> you're talking about a missile here. you don't need a huge amount of evidenc evidence. >> that's right. i worked a crash where they had front loaders and scooped up everything and put it in bins. we then took it out of the bins and pieced it back together. >> at this point you know it was a missile. mostly we know what kind of a missile it was, we're almost certain. >> they would have to do something horrendous to that

site not to find a piece of something that's got residue, that's got traces, that's got burning, whatever it is. >> the colorado springs accident, for example, was a very, very small impact point. everything to do with the aircraft was within that specific area. and we were still able to trace that back to some very specific things that happened in a rudder control system. >> all right. >> so there's many things we can do. the big concern i think here is the respect and the dignity of the bodies. >> yes. >> even in any investigation, the investigation comes secondary to that. >> right. >> completely secondary to that. >> as it should, of course. thanks to all three of you. they're going to be with us through our program tonight. "out front" next, charges of a cover-up. an official says pro-russian rebels are trying to sanitize the scene to conceal their involvement. he's "out front" to make his case. a dutch cyclist says on twitter he was booked on malaysia airlines flight 17 and before that he was booked on

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our breaking news coverage of downed malaysia airlines flight 17 continues. ukrainian prime minister says someone well trained fired at the passenger jet. there are accusations coming from the counterintelligence chief in ukraine that the missile system that was used to down the plane came from russia very recently. president obama and the united states and intelligence officials in the u.s. believe rebel fighters could not have operated the surface-to-air missile that was responsible for the shoot-down without training from russia. "out front" tonight republican

congressman ed royce, chairman of the house foreign affair s committee in washington, chairman royce, it's good it have you with us tonight. threat me ask you this crucial question first about the scene there that possibly, i know you've had a concern that pro-russian rebels are sanitizing the scene to try it conceal their involvement in the crash. our experts are saying that might be impossible simply because the missile would have left so much evidence behind. does that miake you feel any better we may get an answer on who did this when and how? >> my suspicion is their goal is to try to pick up all the missile parts. the reason they want to that as general breedlove indicated, supreme commander of nato forces, he warned last month that these separatists were being taken to russia and trained in firing just these types of missiles. and so we've already had a situation where they've taken credit for shooting down three

planes. one was a military transport. one was a ukrainian jet. this third one they thought was a military transport. and they took credit for that immediately after shooting it down and then they tried to reverse themselves. and now they're claiming they didn't do it and mow they're trying to sanitize the crime scene so that, you know, the blame does not fall on them. but they most certainly were trained and have been shooting at planes in that area. >> and chairman, we have here your camera shot now back available, so we're going to get chairman royce up for you on camera so you can see him. while we do that for one moment, i want to bring many foreign affairs correspondent, elise labott and josh rogen for "the daily beast." good to have both of you with us. elise, let me ask you. i want to ask this of chairman royce in a moment. the world watched during the initial ukraine crisis that the united states said russia, back off, don't do this, put some

sanctions on russia and russia essentially continued to do whatever it was it wanted to. now this has happened. will this change? can the united states do anything more than what it's already done which is put a few more sanctions on russia? >> well, erin, the question is, is this the tipping point not just for the united states and what it's prepared to do, because i think the administration has been slowly trying to gear up wider economic sanctions on the russians, but the question is, will this galvanize europe? a lot of european countries who have very close economic ties to russia have been balking at wider sanctions. now that these countries, many of them have suffered casualties, the dutch, for instance, how much casualties they suffered, are their publics at home, are their politicians in opposition to the government doing to put pressure on these leade erers to take stiffer act? remains to be seen. germany's angela merkel said, let's wait a minute. as the evidence comes more clear, there's going to be a lot of pressure on the europeans to

stiffen up. >> let me ask you about that, chairman royce. now we have you back with us. i suppose, let's just start with this. is there any intelligence or evidence that links this directly to vladimir putin? i ask this specifically. not pro-russian rebels with russian assistance. was this something the ruler of russia, himself, would have known about, or do you think that distinction doesn't matter? >> no, i think -- i was in eastern ukraine two months ago, and i can tell you that the only reason that this insurrection continues is because of armaments and training that comes in from russia and i can also tell you the individual who is giving that order, that goes right to putin. he is the one who is fueling this. if he should decide tomorrow that the armaments and the tanks would to longer come over the border, and this was the other argument made recently, was the number of russian tanks coming

over the border. that they're stepping this up. if they pull out, the cease-fire will hold, and the peace plan that poroshenko is trying to put in place, which frankly is very accommodating for regional -- >> the president of ukraine. >> -- elections in eastern ukraine, we could have peace here if putin will only listen to international public opinion. perhaps now he will. >> let me follow with something interesting. democratic congressman engel called this an act of terror. that was reported by josh in the "daily beast." republican congressman peter king has called this something where president putin has blood on his hands. those are strong words. appears at this point to have on unintentional, although horrific, is that a fair word to use? if we're going to use that word, perhaps in terms of response and how the world handles this, the bar goes way higher, doesn't it? >> well, when we're talking about terror, think for a minute

the types of weapons putin has introduced into this theater and the type of training which of course obviously for group of separatists can't be to the caliber you'd have for russian troops. what do you expect to happen when you bring that type of heavy weaponry into eastern ukraine and teach these guys to start shooting planes out of the sky? i mean, there is culpability here and it goes right to vladimir putin, and the right thing for him to do at this point is to say, all right, let's have a cease-fire, let's support an international investigation, get the international civil aviation organization in there. >> right. >> we all know what that is going to show given the fact they've already taken credit for shooting down planes. i mean, unfortunately, i think the only good thing that can come out of this now is a com t commitment to allow the peace plan to be put in place. >> let me, josh rogen, bring you in here on what the chairman

just said about this issue of culpability and going all the way to the top. when you hear that, and words like that, what do you hear from your sources about this issue of the use of the word blood on his hands, the use of the word terrorist act? >> sure, it ties into everything you've been reporting tonight because, of course, the less evidence and the less forensics that can be done on this crash, the less we can tie it to the russian intelligence, to the russian leadership, and the reason that's important, according to many lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, is because this will be the subject of litigation, it will become a diplomatic issue. both sides will argue the other side is to blame. there will be a lot more wrangling over exactly what happened and how far up it goes, who knew what when, exactly what was the level of russian intelligence at the time? the forensic evidence chain is so important and why the crash

scene has to be preserved. on the greater issue like congressman royce and lots of other republicans and some democrats are calling for increased sanctions on russia on vladimir putin, specifically. there are bills in congress that are going to get new attention when the lawmakers return and whether or not this is considered an act of terror or an act of war, as democrat carl levin said, or whatever, this is going to be the push and we're going to have to see what happens. >> and chairman royce, should the united states be slapping sanctions on russia? the u.s. could do more. it could slap sanctions on russia, ban access to the united states economy and u.s. banks to russian companies. they could do this and they haven't, in part perhaps because something josh wrote about, they may be afraid vladimir putin could destroy the nuclear deal the u.s. wants to make. iran, but he does have a hand to play. does it matter? should the u.s. put the sanctions on no matter what the cost? >> here's the difference. before i don't think we could have done this with the full support of europe, central asia. today i think we an.

today the entire international community, people from many different countries were on this flight, and with this circumstance, i think you've got an international will now to force the hand toward peace in ukraine. we ought to use it. we ought to work together with the europeans and certainly with east asia, central asia. the world community needs to come together to put an end to this bloodshed now and an end to transfer of these kinds of weapons across borders. >> and elise, what are your sources telling you about what the united states government is waiting for? in terms of proof, in terms of evidence, to directly make the link, itself, to the kremlin which the president of the united states so far has been very careful not to explicitly do? >> well, i think they wan t to see the chain of command, erin, where did the missile come from, who shot it? in a way, officials are telling me, look, it doesn't matter if president putin gave them the missiles, and then said, do what you want with it, whether he sent an operative there and he

did it or whether they gave them just an instruction manual. officials do believe that this missile came from russia, that russia bears ultimate responsible for the chaos in ukraine and as the congressman said, if the russians were willing to stop their support for the separatists on the larger issue of the conflict in ukraine, we wouldn't be seeing the tragedy we saw today. you're ultimately going to see a lot more action from the united states and pushing the europeans hard to go along with them. >> crucial to see whether angela merkel, crucial trade relationship with russia will really say it and do it. thanks to all of you. tomorrow morning i want to make sure all of our viewers are aware, john kerry will be a guest on "state of the union with candy crowley" tomorrow morning at 9:00 eastern standard time on cnn. still "out front," the crash site is being called the biggest crime scene in the world. why is it investigators to the crime scene aren't being granted

access? we're going to speak to one of them who's there today. new questions about russia's involvement. the prime minister of ukraine talked to cnn about why he believes vladimir putin is responsible, and you'll hear his case.

welcome back to our special two-hour live edition of "out front." it's a horrible scene on the ground where flight 17 is resting. one international observer calling it the biggest crime scene in the world. a crime scene investigators have had a very hard time accessing and there are growing concerns evidence from what our reporters are seeing on the ground, human remains are not cared for, passengers' belongings are being

looted. phil black reports from the crash site. >> reporter: this is where mh-17 scarred the earth with the greatest force and heat. the wreckage that struck here was big. both of the boeing 777's engines and wings, it's likely where the fuel load burned off as well. the blaze so intense, metal components melted into the ground. down the road, other big pieces of the aircraft mark the farming landscape, but the smaller debris here also holds real power. some of the commonplace possessions of travelers everywhere. but there is also the more personal. giving little insights into the lives of those who fell with the plane. these were people from around the world with no connection to ukraine's conflict, but their bodies now lie across this war zone. their positions are marked with sticks and white cloth. most of the injuries are too terrible to show, or even talk about. pro-russian militants are in

control here. some show curiosity, but there's no obvious intention of quickly recovering the bodies or securing the aircraft. this is a strange, eery experience, walking through the debris field of a passenger jet. the remains of its crew and passengers are everywhere, and yet there is no one here trying to work out what happened. no one here to take responsibility for this. the militant's leaders say they are deliberately not altering the site to it remains in tact for ukrainian and international experts to inspect. they're blaming the central government in kiev for not getting the experts here sooner. until both sides act together, there can be little dignity for mh-17's victims. phil black, cnn, eastern ukraine. >> i want to bring in our aviation analyst, former inspector mary schiavo who has inspected many of these crashes

and our counterterrorism analyst, phil mud, also formerly of the cia. mary, we watch both of these things, it's hard to focus. the viewer finds it hard to focus because this is something that was so -- it could have happened to anyone. in a way that, perhaps, i think viewers feel more than anything else. we've talked about in a long time. so is there, when you, in all your experience of investigating these sorts of crashes, how different is this one in terms of the scene? when we hear about these horrible things that are happening. has hat happened before? is this something that can be fixed? >> well, the lack of control is very zichbt frdifferent from ot accidents because usually someone is in charge. in terms of preserving in the long run the investigation, the evidence, yes, they'll have it. it's impossible to erase it. but there's a recent shooting, shoot-down that is probably weighing very heavily on the minds of both sides, and that's when ukraine shot down a

jetliner that came out of sigh bea siberia, siberia airlines. in that case, ukraine eventually admitted they'd mistakenly shot it down. their missile missed its drone target then hit the siberian airlines. they took it to court and made the position that there was no evidence it was a missile, that it was a shoot-down. day paid reparations and turned around in court and said they didn't. so the reason for people being very protective of their evidence might lie in the history of shoot-downs in the area. >> when you hear all these lawmakers, political side of this story, you heard it from the chairman of the house intel committee, he's hearing reports they're trying to remove evidence that there was a missile there. you're saying you can take the fears away from people like him, because no matter what they remove, there will be evidence of this missile, will be able to know what missile hit, when it hit, how it hit. >> i suspect the united states knows that already from the gps tracings and probably classified information. they are able to get the

particular signature of the missile. on any part that was in the area, you will see the metal explosive tracings or the metal actually enters the plane, et cetera. you'll be able to remove that. my fear would be if they're trying to remove all of the evidence of the wreckage. they're trying to take it all away. i've seen it in some countries where they bulldoze it into a container, as long as they don't dispose it, they'll be able to get it. >> phil, let me ask you, one of the issues here, our understanding to this point, they believe it was a russian buk military system. that's not yet been confirmed. that's the belief. widely reported. u.s. officials say that's what it is. this system goes on the back of basically a larger pickup truck. row can move it very quickly, fire it many five minutes. it's incredibly mobile. and obviously even if there was senior russian involvement on the military side, people were able to be trained to do it. if could get in the hands of russian-backed rebels in eastern ukraine, could something like

this get in the hands of al qaeda linked, al qaeda sympathizers, isis in iraq, and become a threat in much more than a very specific war zone? >> i think there's the potential that it could, but i have to tell you, my experience for dealing with terrorists for about a quarter century, this is more sophisticated than the terrorists i followed could use. that's one reason when i initially looked at this problem, i jumped to the fact this had to be some people who had expertise, maybe trained by russians to use it, because i saw terrorists, for example, use shoulder-fired missiles which is far more basic than this system. even with those systems, they had -- they struggled to use them effectively. >> and you don't think the game -- this could be a game changer, phil, in terms of them becoming aware of these sorts of things or aspiring to these sorts of things? i mean, what -- how hard is the training if you were able to get it to operate, a system like the buk? >> i think it's a game changer -- let me step back. the terrorists i looked at always looked at international

media, looked at things like what happened in western europe, united states, to find new ideas about things to do. you remember the washington sniper incident years ago. >> right. >> i remember when i was at the central intelligence agency, terrorists looking at they saying, hey, a couple people paralyzed in a major urban area, maybe that's something we should try. a couple things i'd look at over time, erin. the first is, of course, whether people, isis in iraq, or syria could acquire a system. more interestingly, it would be not whether you could train a baseline terrorist to do this. it would be whether they could recruit people from the military who are already trained on these systems to use them. i don't think you can train a line guy, terrorists i followed, to do this. >> that's a crucial point, to recruit people already involved. >> that's right. >> how difficult would it be -- it's easy for people to say it's so mobile and get a little training, phil's saying it's a lot of training. you take a step back and say this is a missile on the ground on the back of a truck hitting a plane moving at 600 miles an hour at 33,000 feet. that's got to be incredibly hard

to do. >> well, no, because the machinery does it for you. the machinery will hit -- >> it hones in and finds it? >> one thing i learned in the 11 years i spent doing the 9/11 cases, if you can think it, the terrorists are researching it. here i would tend to disagree. for example, osama bin laden bought an aircraft before 9/1 before he decided to take them, bought them, had it transported, bought in texas. they crashed it but they were thinking technology all the time and that's what we learned in 9/11. they're always thinking ahead. they're thinking about this. >> thanks very much to both of you and "out front" next, the ukrainian officials saying russia was involved in the strike. the prime minister made his case directly to krn wooercnn, we're hear it. malaysia airlines on the defense about the route that plane was flying. why didn't it avoid ukraine's airspace like many did? a dutch cycler claims on twitter he was booked on both of

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more of our breaking news coverage of flight 17. joining me now, michael, a spokesperson for the organization for security and cooperation in europe. that is the group that has been trying to investigate, get access to the crime scene. monitor the security situation in eastern ukraine. they were the first international monitors to arrive

there. and i understand, michael, that you've been, just a moment ago you had to literally crouch down as you were getting ready to speak to us because you were hearing gunfire. >> yeah, i'm sorry if it looks like we're crouching down, but it just shows you the lawlessness of even a relatively safe city like donetsk. as soon as the cameraman turned on the light, there was a crack of gunfire. there was a curfew here the rebels try to enforce, but it shows you the lawlessness, it's amazing. in any case, we, despite all of that, we have now for the second day managed to make it to the crash site. every day before that happens, it does require some negotiation with the rebel leaders, but we're able to do it and we're going to plan -- we're going to do the same thing in a few hours from now. go to the crash site and continue our monitoring. >> and michael, how organized

are these rebels that you're dealing with? i mean, are they really in control? is there one person in control? because when you talk about hearing a gunfire behind you, it sounds like they may want us to think that they're in control, but it is, perhaps, more complicated than that. >> it is very complicated, erin. you know, you have the donetsk self-proclaimed people's republic leaders, they hold sway over a big piece of the territory here. but it seems to us, anyway after two days, that once we go to the area of the crash site, there's another group that holds sway there. and i can say they're not the most hospitable people. but it's a very -- it's a patchwork environment in donetsk, where we are now and also in neighboring luhansk. >> in terms of your access to the site, michael, you and i spoke last night. you said you had been given access but only a little bit over an hour and not what you needed. today, were you able to get the full access you needed? what is it that you still need

that you are not getting? >> yeah. okay, well, yes, today was better. we were there for a longer period of time. we were able to traverse a bigger geographical area. yet they did not allow our diplomatic vehicles on to the scene. and what we're going to be needing tomorrow is really unfettered access by now, because time is really moving quickly. when we left today, i have to mention this to you, we did see what looked like preparations for the bodies to be moved or at least some of them. they were actually being collected from the field, put into body bags and some trucks did arrive. and then subsequent to that, there were reports that dozens of bodies have been moved. now, again, we as a monitoring mission, part of our strength is we don't operate on speculation. we verify reports. sna that's what we're going to do first thing in the morning, compare the body count to what we saw yesterday, verifying

whether bodies have been moved, number one, and number two, where they've gone to. >> i know you're trying to figure that out. can you tell us, though, who was removing the bodies? and i would assume they were trying to do so in what you're talking about in a respectful way with body bags, i mean, they were trying to gather the dead. who was it that was doing that? >> well, the rebel leaders there referred to them as experts, and, you know, these look like civilians to us. we weren't given really access to them, to verify their identity. we did speak to one chap who seemed to know what he was doing. he described a procedure, they go out, photograph, video the remains of the body, it's placed into a body bag and moved. we asked, what are you going to do with the photographs? he said, well, this is for when the relatives arrive then they'll have an easier time identifying them. it didn't seem like a very well planned out exercise.

>> michael, do you know anything more about the black boxes? ukrainian officials said on friday the recorders were still in their country but they didn't know who had them. have you heard anything about that? and had anyone at the scene have a sense of where they might be? >> well, that was one of our first questions yesterday and again today. part of the problem, erin, is there doesn't seem to be one commander in charge. so when we did ask for, to speak to a leader, nobody was produced. we did ask about the black box and we basically got a shrug of the shoulders. so that -- that hasn't been produced yet, and, you know, it's a huge problem obviously because we also brought with us, by the way, for the second day, aviation experts three or four of them from the yukrainian government side. it was quite an accomplishment. and they need a lot more time and a lot more freedom of access to go about and look carefully at the wreckage for two reasons. one, the black boxes may still

be there, and secondly, to determine possibly how this plane was brought down. >> all right. michael bociuikrw, thank you, we appreciate you joining us tonight. obviously taking a risk to do so given those gunshots that he was hearing in the background. still to come, a family of six lost in the flight 17 crash. we're going to go to their hometown to hear from those who are mourning that indescribable loss tonight. and other car insurance companies? yes. but you're progressive and they're them. -yes. -but they're here. -yes. -are you... -there? -yes. -no. -are you them? i'm me. but the lowest rate is from them. -yes. -so them's best rate is... here. so where are them? -aren't them here? -i already asked you that. -when? -feels like a while ago. want to take it from the top? rates for us and them. now that's progressive. call or click today. ♪he cadillac summer collection is here.

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welcome back to or special two-hour edition of "out front: shot down malaysia 17." one of the most heartbreaking stories is the entire family of six, two parents and four children wiped out. their house is empty. tonight. their hoemtometown in the netherlands, the entire mustn't in mourning. >> reporter: a teenager unable to understand why her friend is gone. >> that's her. >> yes. >> reporter: she wanted to talk to me. we'll do it for yinta, her friend said, but she couldn't speak. 15-year-old yinta was on flight mh-17 with her parents, brother,

and two sisters. heading on their summer holiday to kuala lumpu ar. >> yes, she was every time happy. yeah. >> reporter: you grew up together? >> yes. every day we saw her as a good friend. she rides to school with us. yeah. she was good. >> reporter: and you wrote this note for her. >> yes. >> reporter: can you tell me what it says? >> every time right here with us. >> reporter: throughout the day we saw people from across this community bringing tributes, lightni lighting candles. a group of passing cyclists stopped for a moment to pay their respects. this man tells me he didn't know

the family, he isn't fro here, but felt compelled to drive here to say a prayer and leave flowers. across the village of neerkant, we found rows of houses flying their flags at half-mast. >> fairly deep level of shock because it was a well-known family. and i think people are still trying to handle the situation. >> reporter: among the tributes, these are hearts with the names of all members of the family. six of them. and children at the school where the youngest went of the four children. they wrote notes at the memorial yesterday and stuck it to this tree. this one addressed to brett, the eldest son, saying, brett, i'll miss you, dear family, you didn't deserve this. this note from one of the friends of one of the girls saying, you will now be a bright star. this message from solen's

teacher saying, i can't believe i won't see you again. and this message is actually from the children's baby-sitter, so she has all the names of the children here. and she says, no words, and then one simply, why? gone so suddenly. so brutally. untimely deaths for a young family friends loved so much. >> don't understand it. >> yes. >> think she'll come back, but can't. >> reporter: cnn, neerkant near amsterdam. >> the stories are impossible to imagine. they're the parents who stayed a couple days extra from their vacation in amsterdam. their three children were on board that plane. there is one twist of fate in the stories that are so horrible. a dutch cyclist who actually narrowly escaped being on the

plane and more than once. according to rtvost, a dutch station, maarten de jonge was scheduled to be on the flight. he was according to the station supposed to be on malaysia flight 370, which is believed to have crashed in the indian ocean and is missing after 137 days. but apparently it made a last-minute change. and he wasn't on that flight. now he's scheduled to fly on malaysia airlines on sunday. in an interview, he says, i got lucky twice. it will go well a third time. we're going to have more on the cyclist story coming up in our next hour. still to come, more of our breaking news coverage. reporters are standing by around the world with our latest developments. our special two-hour edition of "out front" continues next. former secretaries of state, oil tycoons, and ambassadors of countries known for their fine cheeses. yes i am rich. that's why i drink the champagne of beers. at every ford dealership, you'll find the works!

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this is a special edition of "out front: shot down malaysia 17." good evening, i'm erin burnett. welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world tonight. this is the second hour of our special edition of "out front." breaking news, here at cnn, we are just getting new pictures of the crash site from our crew on the ground. it is the reality of what investigators are facing on the ground. bodies of the 298 passengers that lost their lives in body bags along with debris and