one simply, why? gone so suddenly, so brutally. untimely deaths for a young family, friends loved so much. >> we cannot understand it. >> we think she come back to here. but can't. >> reporter: cnn., amsterdam. >> 17 million people in the netherlands. there was a headline which said everybody knows somebody. that does seem to be the case. >> it must be an incredibly difficult thing for them to have to endure right now. especially as we continue to talk about the ongoing confusion of the crash site. >> we'll take a short break. as the recovery drags on, talks are underway to try to end the

stand-off. >> and how the treatment of the mh 17 crash site is making people furious in the netherlands. we will have a live report from amsterdam. [ female announcer ] it's simple physics... a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammation. plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function so moving is easier. celebrex can be taken with or without food. and it's not a narcotic. you and your doctor should balance the benefits with the risks. all prescription nsaids, like celebrex, ibuprofen, naproxen and meloxicam have the same cardiovascular warning.

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we want to get back to our top story. the downing of malaysian flight 17. >> wreckage and mangled bodies across the crash site. even as the victim' bodies start to be recovered under controversial circumstances, it is not clear what brought the airliner down. the u.s. and ukraine say it was

a russian-made surface-to-air. >> ukraine released images it says three missile launchers heading back toward russia. vladimir putin is under enormous pressure to order the pro russian separatists to lay down their arms. >> and evidence from the crash site is proving very hard. >> the area is under strict control of heavily armed rebels. international observers say they've been kept from examining the wreckage. so far the voice and data recorders have not been recovered. >> the remains of the 298 victims are finally being collected. but as phil black tells us, even this task is hampered by the bitter conflict. >> reporter: this is where it scarred the earth with the greatest force and heat. the wreckage that struck here was big. both at the boeing 777's engines, it is likely this is where the fuel load burned off

as well. the blaze so intense. metal components melted into the ground. the smaller debris also holds real power. some of the common place possessions of travelers everywhere. there is also a more personal. giving little insights into the lives of those who fell with the plane. these were people from around the world with no connection to ukraine's conflict but their bodies now lie across this war zone. their positions are marked with sticks and white cloth. most of the injuries are too terrible to show or even talk about. pro russian militants are in control here. some show curiosity but there is no obvious intense of quickly recovering the bodies or securing the aircraft. this is a strange, eerie experience. walking through the debris field of a passenger jet. the remains of its crew and

passengers are everywhere. and yet there is no one here trying to work out what happened. no one here to to have take responsibility. the militants' leader say they are deliberately not altering the site so it remains intact for ukrainian and international experts. they're blaming the central government in kiev for not getting the experts here sooner. until both sides act together, there can be little dignity for mh17's victims. phil black, cnn, eastern ukraine. >> now earlier, cnn's erin burnett talked with a spokesperson for the organization in europe. >> erin asked him about the people who have been seen already working on the site. >> the leaders referred to them as experts. these look like civilians to us. we weren't given really access to them to verify their

identity. however, we did speak to one chap. they go out and video the remains of the body and only then is it placed into a body bag and moved. we asked what are you doing with the photographs? and he said well, this is for when the relatives arrive and then they'll have an easier time identifying them. but it didn't seem like a very well planned out exercise. >> michael, do you know anything more about the black boxes? ukrainian officials said on friday the recorders were still in the country but they didn't know who had them. have you heard anything about that? and had anyone at the scene have a sense of where they might be? >> reporter: well, that was one of our first questions yesterday and again today. part of the problem is that there doesn't seem to be one commander in charge. when we did ask to speak to a leader, nobody was produced. we did ask about the black box

and we basically got a shrug of shoulders. that hasn't been produced yet. and you know, it is a huge problem because we also brought with us by the way for the second day, aviation experts, three or four of them from the ukrainian government side. it was quite an accomplishment. and they need a lot more time and freedom of access to go about and look carefully at the wreckage. for two reasons. one, the black boxes may still there be and secondly to determine how this plane was brought down. >> that was the spokesman for the organization of the security and cooperation in europe. speaking to our colleague erin burnett. in the netherlands, people mourn those they have lost but sadness is giving way to rage over the way the gd extra is being handled. with the dutch prime minister calling crash site problems, quote, downright disgusting.

erin mclaughlin joins me now. speaking to you earlier, could i see that people were still coming to the memorial behind to you lay flowers. >> reporter: that's right. there has been a steady stream of people to arrive here at the airport. they're laying flowers and signing a book of could not dole enlss. so far we haven't seen the families. they've been choosing for the most part to be mourning in private. today, sell thenna and her, they lost their son bryce, 20 years old and his girlfriend, 23, they were on board mh 17. she told me that she was horrified by what she is hearing and seeing unfolding around that crash site in eastern ukraine. and she says she just wants the bodies of her son and his

girlfriend to be brought back home. >> take care of my son and my daughter. >> who knows where they are? who knows where the bodies are? >> i can do nothing but wait for their bodies. >> do you have any idea where your son's body and his girlfriend is? >> i have no idea. >> man they took it. maybe it is there. maybe in one piece. maybe a thousand pieces. >> no one knows. >> are government officials telling you anything? >> no. they don't know. the only thing we know is from the media. how do they know? the officials don't know. >> they can't give us any idea. >> it's horrible. >> no doubt about it. >> it's impossible to understand

the pain of a mother, the shock, the anguish and anger in her voice. she told me that she was the one who brought the couple the plane tickets. daisy had lost her mother about two and a half months ago. the trip to indonesia was supposed to have been a relief for the couple. quickly turned into a tragedy for the entire family. >> and the very visceral grief those people are suffering. everyone could hear it and we hope that certainly in ukraine, it ends up meaning something to the investigation. thanks so much. >> 43 people on that plane were from malaysia. cnn's andrew stevens has more now from kuala lumpur. >> reporter: four now since that plane was down. the shock and the grieving is still very much in evidence here

in malaysia. and added to that is the fact this is a predominantly muslim country. part of their faith is to make sure the deceased are buried within 24 hours of their death. that is not happening and the government continues to call for a safe corridor to the crash site area. so the remains can be brought out and brought home to loved ones. the prime minister spent two hours yesterday with relatives, talking to them. he himself is in mourning. his step grandmother was on flight mh17. the second wife of his grandfather so he has a very, very personal interest in what is happening. obviously there is a lot of frustration but there is a lot of stoicism too. even though this is the second disaster to hit malaysia airlines in five months, they say they are calm, they're being

patient and moving forward. a very, very difficult time for so many people here. the government has sent teams into kiev hoping to speed up. but they do not have a lot of national power. they can't force the main players in this to move any more quickly to get the, get safe corridor to the crash site which is very, very frustrating for everybody here. >> i still have goose bumps listening to that. it is unspeakable, the horror they're being made to suffer through. >> you can see the struggle. >> still to come, many people including the u.n. ambassador have questioned why planes were flying over the embatted eastern ukraine region. we'll speak to a military

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the biggest discussions to come out of this tragedy is why was an air may not, a commercial passenger jet, flying over a combat zone? especially one where the rebels had actually downed planes over the last few weeks. >> it is a it was a legal legitimate route.

while some airlines like quantah had decided not to overfly ukraine, there were many flying over large parts of ukraine. malaysia being one of them. should the airline, should all of them be criticized, what happens is the airline files a flight pan. if it is closed, it is rejected. looking back over the last 48 hours before the flight, there were many long haul flights from singapore, from bangkok, from malaysia, that were all going over this route and around this area. on the question needs to be asked. when they new the capabilities, why they didn't realize having reached that level of capability, they didn't close the ukrainian air space.

to put it bluntly, it was put to me by one chief exec of an airline. to blame the airline for flying the route is a bit like blaming the car for being on the road when the road is open. the question you need to ask is why was the road open? >> and we spoke with our mill analyst. lieutenant colonel rick francona who had details on who is responsible. the ukrainian state security, crossing back into russia. they say it happened within 12 hours of the flight being shut down. they say this is proof the russians were involved. what's your assessment? >> well, first of all, one can be a little suspecting of that coming right when you need it. assuming that the tape is valid, it shows me whoever was in charge of shooting that missile wanted to get that equipment out

of the country. out of sight as fast as they could. >> okay. everything right now indicates that this was a mistake. they didn't know what they were shooting at. the rebels may have thought it was a ukrainian military plane, a cargo plane. if they were using this equipment correctly, is that mistake possible? >> not really. the fact that they shot at a civilian airliner is very troubling. what it tells me is they are probably not using the entire system. the buk missile system has four components. one is an air surveillance radar. it is capable of determining what the target is. it also has a height finder and a trans ponder interrogator that would receive the code that said i'm a civilian aircraft. it doesn't look like they did that step. it looks like they turned on the tracking radar. found a piece of metal in the sky where they thought it might be and fired.

>> that brings me to this other question. if they made that mistake, does that indicate that there weren't russian professionally trained soldiers anywhere to be seen? >> i would find it hard to believe that any professionally trained soldier would make that kind of error. what we may be looking at are people from the ukraine that have gone to russia for some rudimentary training. the very basics of how you would operate the system. you can do that in less than the normal training time. then you suffer the consequences of what we have here. people making mistakes. >> let's look at the investigation. the crash site appears to be in badly compromised. it is under control of the rebels accused of shooting the plane down. is there enough evidence out there regardless of what happens at the crash site, regardless of what they find at the crash site to find out who is ultimately responsible? >> i'm not sure the crash site will tell us that any way. i think we know what happened. we don't know who actually pushed the trigger on this

missile. so i don't know if we'll get that from the crash scene. coming from intelligence sources or some other source you about it won't come from the wreckage out the there. >>ly, militant groups but across the world in particular. syria, parts of wrak this incredibly vanlsed weaponry? >> yes. this is something to be very concerned about. it already happened in syria. the syrian free syrian army were able to go into a syrian air defense depot and take several launchers. and weeks later were able to field that system and knock down an air force plane so there is precedence for this to happen. this is not quite that capable but we see rebel groups, maybe terrorist groups acquiring this

recommendry and finding people who know how to use and it cause a threat to aviation. one other thing, if you look at the radar available on internet. you can see right now there are aircraft flying over baghdad and mosul. which are combat areas. >> okay. lieutenant colonel rick francona, we'll leave it there. some very good points. a lot to be worried about. as we continue to cover our top stories, mourning the deaths of airline passengers has become all too familiar in malaysia in recent months. and we'll have more on the two tragic incidents.

i got the message saying the next time i write you guys it will be in bali. i said please be safe, kiddo, i love you. that was it. i'm pretty sure he saw it. i sent it like five minutes after. i hope he saw it. >> i just want him to come home. >> incredibly heart-breaking. that was the grieving sister of canada's only citizen on board

mh17. >> the effects being felt all around the world. with people in many countries in shock and in grief. >> as you see here, most of the victims were from the netherlands. the rest from from malaysia, australia, indonesia, the u.k., germany, belgium, the philippines, new zealand, and as we just heard, canada. >> and the downing of mh17. a double tragedy for many in malaysia. >> people thought, it can't be another flight from malaysia airlines. the disappearance of flight mh 370 is still a mystery and the shooting death of mh 17 is another staggering blow for this airline. >> reporter: one by one the full names of 298 passengers. the manifest released by the airline. they are grand parents, children, students, malaysia

mourning the soul aboard flight 17. it is an all too familiar feeling. >> now here we are again. going through a series of tragic incidents. this is something which i think a lot of our crew members are unable to accept. >> reporter: disbelief says the air flight attendant. four months after the disappearance of mh flight 370 over the indian ocean. malaysia crew members say they were just beginning to step away from the flight 370 ugliness. the question, why them again? >> we cannot believe that this incident can happen over such a short period. and it happened again. >> reporter: this time there is a difference. with night 17, there is debris. there is evidence of what may have caused the crash. with flight 370, no answer.

no debris, no proof your loved one is gone. rage and grief followed the missing airliner as families screamed their frustration on international television. with flight 17, the rage is directed not internally but at an outside source. malaysia this time is not a bungling country grappling with a mystery but victim demanding answer. >> this outrage cannot go unpunished. once again, malaysia condemns this brutal act of aggression and calls for those responsible to be found. and to face the full force of justice without delay. >> reporter: the clarity of what happened in this crash doesn't make it any easier, say grieving friends and family them say it is simply different. >> the special coverage continue

with max foster in london. >> thanks for watching. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com at progressive.com. is that where they show the other guys' rates, too? mm-hmm. cool. yeah. hi. final boarding call for flight 294. [ bells ring on sign ] [ vehicle beeping ] who's ready for the garlic festival? this guy! bringing our competitors' rates to you -- now, that's progressive.

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