moment. that's it for me, thanks very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer reporting from jerusalem. erin burnett "outfront" starts right few. >> next breaking news moments ago pro russian rebels handing over the black boxes from malaysian flight 17. will there be a smoking gun? should commercial passenger planes be equipped with anti-missile technology. two americans killed fighting for israel. let's go "outfront." good evening, everyone. i'm erin burnett. we begin with breaking news in malaysian air flight 17. rebels standing over black boxes to invst getters in ukraine. could the black boxes be an

important part of who is responsible for downing the passenger jet with it 298 on board? the hand over, an incredible moment in and of itself, first, to get you updated on fast-moving developments today. u.s. officials are trying to build a case against russia saying it is now looking at whether russians were physically at the scene when the anti-aircraft missile fired at flight 17. there are questions whether russia is scrubbing evidence from the scene. and strong words about that today from president obama. >> the burden now is on russia to insist that the separatists stopped messing with the evidence and give full unimpeded access to the website. >> putin is refusing to accept responsibility, instead blaming ukraine and u.s. to have selfish political objectives.

282 bodies and 87 body fragments and body bags are now, according to the ukrainian government, have left the area of the crash site and are expected to arrive in tkharkiv later tonight. now going to phil which witnessed the hand over of the black box, a rather surreal moment, describe it and what happens now. >>. >> reporter: erin, a very public event. very public event by their leadership that they are trying to help. they want to be an example to the world that they are cooperating. they called all of the internation international media to witness the handing-over ceremony. words were spoken. the rebel leader repeated often

that the -- that they had acted, he believes, in good faith. that they acted in a way if try and care for bodies, the victims, as often as possible. now, this was also yet another goodwill gesture. from the malaysian side, it is clear that very careful, sensitive diplomacy has gone in to achieve this result. they talked about not coming here it blame but to reclaim the property of malaysia and they expressed gratitude for the fact that the rebel leadership had been willing to listen to that request. so what happens now? that malaysian delegation goes to a train that pulled in a couple hours ago. now they will take the black boxes, also aboard this train bodies of some 200 of the victims from the accident. they are going to travel north to the ukrainian city, and in doing so, take the very precious cargo really, beyond the reach

of the rebel forces for the first time. they will move into territory that is controlled by the ukrainian government. there is a base of operation now in pursuing the investigation and so forth. we do know that bodies of the victims will be bound for the n nej nejerlands. that is where the dna will take place. the question is where will the black boxes be analyzed? we are not sure of that yet but we know they are in possession of the malaysian delegation and are shortly due to move pornd the territory of the rebels. erin? >> thank you, phil black. now, join meg, spokesperson for the people overseeing the site. organization for security and cooperation in europe. for months with be monitoring the situation in raestern ukraine.

michael, thank you for being with us. you heard the president of the united states say pro russian rebels have been tampering with the evidence. now the black boxes have been handed over. from what with you have seen at the chaos of the crash site, how easy would it have been for them to tamper with evidence? >> hi, erin. we have been on the ground for days out of three months, actually. and we have been observing that number one is we have talked about it in the past it there isn't a real security perimeter since the crash happened. secondly, especially yesterday, now early in the morning here, there's been heavy equipment moved in. it apercent that heavy pieces of the fuselage have been moved in one way or the other. yesterday we were at the site, very gruesome site, of where the cockpit and first section landed.

other than the hard impact, we did see workers there sawing in with diesel saws into the fuselage. our understanding at the time was that all of the bodies had been taken away. it wasn't very clear whether they were looking for more body parts or trying to do something else. very difficult to piece together. but i must remind everyone as unarmed civilian mission. we are not crash investigators. that type of thing is left better up to others. >> of course, when you talk about people you saw, with a diesel sawing into a cockpit area, were you able to ascertain who it was doing that. you can definitively say it wasn't investigators from other countries. they were locals, rebels? could you tell? >> no. these were people from the ministry of a emergency services.

and they are answerable to the rebels who have control over the area. we did bring in since day one experts from the civil aviation authority. three experts from the netherlandss. their expertise is more in the evidence of the bodies in the train which was referred to. whether there was any body or body parts left in the field. today the first foreign experts arrived and were given access to the field. >> please stay with us. now, bringing in richard quest along with investigator of these accidents, mary, who served as transportati transportation inspector general. richard, let me start with you.

you heard michael saying, sawing into the plane. >> very worrying. until we know who they were, what they were doing it for. sooner or later you have to saw into it and take it away but it has to be the most controlledern viernment by experts who know what they were doing. >> that that is not the case. mary, when you hear about black boxes being handed over to malaysian investigators, who what could be on the black botches that would get at heart of the issue. which is, were there russian officials involved in shooting the plane down and did they know they were shooting down a civilian jet? >> yes. on the black boxes, let's start with the flight data recorder. it records hundreds of parameters. everything from engine settings, pressurization, controlled settings and how the communications were running and

electronic communications et cetera. compare this for example to the shoot-down of kal 007, on that flight date ra recorder they could tell it exploded on the tail. first, the plane continued to fly for some time so they knew how the whole sequence went down. there is a mic in front of each pilot and it records what happens in the cockpit. that would record if the pilots hit, what went on, any clicks, anything going on in the cockpit would be recorded. so they might have known what was happen ppg g /*ing. >> michael, is there any way the boxes were tampered with? >> no. look at the pictures of the boxes themselves. first of all -- >> they look to be in very good condition. >> only thing missing is one of the pingers is on on that one. the pinger, we know about this

from the 370. you see the pinger on the one on the right, not the one on the left. they look in good condition. dent look to be opened. electronics and digital and nature of them is such you can't really tamper with the information. you could destroy them in you could open it but you couldn't really tamper with it. >> and the point that mary is making, there is information on there, but not who is on the ground, just what was transpiring. >> that's probably why they don't mind handing them over. it'll give you a tick tock of what is happening but not who did it or why. >> michael, let me bring you in on that note. access to the site and tampering with the crash site, which could provide answers to the questions of who did it and why and did you receive access to all parts of the crash site? there are eight distinct large areas of debris.

>> yes. today we visited four of the eight and you know, the last one was interesting because the ukrainian civilization experts came with us. they had time alone there. what happened there is they spent quite a bit of time and found interesting evidence that they were presented to the ukrainian side. so there is -- there has been some collection of evidence by independent experts, if we can call it that. hopefully that will feed into the eventual wider investigation when and if that happens. >> mary, the crash site and access, are there things you could imagine that would be there, that would become so crucial which is, was there direct russian involvement in bringing the plane down? >> that will be tough.

they would find missile residue and shrapnel from missile. if there is any tell-tale chemical they would find it. but there isn't for example a russian fingerprint per se unless they are incredibly fortunate and can find any piece remaining from the ordinance, which could be difficult. but remember in pan am 103 they walked shoulder to shoulder through the field through the evidence and found the evidence which was the size of a finger nail. >> up next, evidence that links russia to the downed jet? does it go all the way up to putin? plus, is it time for passenger jets to be equipped with anti-missile technology? and remembering victims of flight 17. the parents of this unbelievable smart and beautiful young woman, also aerospace engineer.

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malaysian investigators and ukraine in a choreographed hand-off in front of reporters. trying to build a case against putin in the downing of the jet, the u.s. government is trying to find out whether there was a person, a russian person, at the scene when the missile hit the passenger jet. the pressing questions are who pulled the trigger to bring that jet down. barbara starr is out front for the.gone. for the pentagon. >> reporter: now pointing to russian government. >> we know there are russian military weapons, including anti-aircraft weapons, key separatist leaders, russian residents. >>. >> reporter: scouring data from spy satellites, radar and phone intercepts. it t began when russian rebels

moved a heavy arsenal of weapons into place. weapons leading to the shoot down, according to u.s. intelligence. >> there was a convoy about several weeks ago, about 150 vehicles with armed personnel carrier, multiple rocket launchesers, tanks, artillery, all crossing over from russia, into the eastern part of ukraine and was turned over to the separatists. >> reporter: within minutes of flight 17 dropping off radar, the u.s. suspected shoot down. experts narrowing in on two-piece of critical intelligence. first a surface-to-air missile system had been activated in a separatist controlled area in eastern ukraine. a moment later, a u.s. satellite captured the heat signature of a midair explosion. >> we detected a launch from that area and our trajectory shows it went to the aircraft.

>> reporter: the conclusion, russian supplied sa-11 surface-to-air missile launcher shot down the flight. evidence, u.s. verified telephone intercepts including the separatists had an sa-11 system as early as monday, july 13th. there may be more evidence, erin. u.s. intelligence identified a facility, a training camp, just across the border inside russia where it says separatists went to get trained on how to use these surface-to-air missile systems. >> barbara starr, thank you. now congressman eliot engel in ukraine monthes a gi. ago. you said this is quote, an act of terror. do you still stand by that? >> oh, yes. once we have fear among people of flying with be it is an act

of terror. >> i know this is very important determining the world's response sb so i want it make sure i really understand you on this. if it was unintentional, if they thought they were shooting down a cargo plane or ukrainian military plane, if it was an accidental horrific act, is that still an act of terror? >> it probably was accidental. but it is certainly an act of terror because the net result of it is people are going to be afraid it fly. and i think that it certainly was russian complicit in it. the question is, what do we do about it? >> that's why the use of the word terror is so important. because, let me play the ukrainian president today. he said it is terrorism. he likened it to 9/11. he spoke earlier on cnn. here he is. >> i don't see any differences from the tragedy 9/11 from the

tragedy of lockerbie, this is a tragedy. >> when you look at 9d/11 as a terrorist event, the united states went to war. the united states isn't going to war over this. is it perhaps dangerous to call it a terrorist act and not go to war over it. >> i think what you call it in many way saemantical. i know innocent people were killed that had no reason to be killed. this may have been a mistake but the fact is, if putin wasn't arming rebels, if putin wasn't aiding and abetting separatists, this wouldn't happen. i think the world needs to take a united stand against what putin is doing otherwise he will think he can get away with it. >> what should the united stand be? i think if we can both

acknowledge a realitying with a du dual citizen. a lot of people in russia would say it is an accident and may not support incredibly harsh sanctions. what can really be done about this? >> if that's the case, then shame on them. we have to make sure that putin doesn't get away with his aggression. he is starting the an annex crime, and european allies that get their energy needs from him, but if we let him get away with it now, when does it stop? >> would you support the president taking a much stronger stance than he is, banning anything from u.s. banks, banning the global economic system. would you say do it, even if you have do it alone? >> yes. we are negotiating with iran

now. iran didn't come to the table with good intentions because they are a nice government. they came because it was sanctions. u.s. sanctions alone, eventually, that brought them to their knees. i this i that may very well be needed to happen again with putin. >> and again, just to get the issue, if it was the russian ambassador, if they thought down a military jet, it was confusion, not an act of terrorism. you say there is no explanation that would make you change your mind? >> no. putin is aiding these people, these people are shooting down cargo planes. it is certainly lack of caring, of consequences of human life. he is playing footsies. doing all these things. i think we can take a tough stand. i believe that you confront a bully early on. because if you don't, you will wined up doing it again. we're not talking about troops on the ground. or boots on the ground. we are talking about economic sanctions, and i think hurt the

russian economy. that's the only language that putin understands. >> which could be tougher than they are now. thank you. we appreciate your time. how to prevent another flight 17. is anti-missile technology even something to consider? >> reporter: a commercial plane shot out of the sky, now renewed support for finding way to protect commercial flights with missile defense technology similar it that on u.s. military planes. there are options but almost all are designed to stop shoulder-fired missiles like the one that took down this dhl flight in baghdad in 2003 which the crew survived. one option, flairs, or tiny pieces of aluminum stuff need a canister that create a visual smoke screen that tricks the missile's radar temporarily. >> the chap will is ysurround a

area around the wing diverting the missile. >> the other simple design used to be called flair. and just like a road flair, it produces some heat source. and you shoot that off somewhere away from the aircraft. >> under are also new high-tech options, this one from defense contractor northrop grumman called the guardian. >> when the system fires, it is automatically sensed and tracked. sending a laysor beam in, the system jams the missile and drives it i way from the aircraft. >> systems like this are in use by planes flown in israel. >> in israel today, one of their homegrown defense contractors outfitted their fleet with counter measures to deal with the more traditional type shoulder launch missiles. >> but aviation experts say when it comes to the more advanced

surface-to-air missiles like the one u.s. intelligence believe shot down, the technology just isn't there kwet. mark kirk is calling for action sending this letter to aa asking it to produce a study to detail feasibility, cost and timeframe to install counter measures to defend against surface-to-air missiles on u.s. i civilian airlines. after 9/11 he added the u.s. department of security spent $276 plilon studying away commercial airlines could be protected. >> why don't we put them on today? it's the cost. >> but when it comes to evading surface it air missiles, all of the experts we tospoke to agree. right now, the only way to avoid a strike is to avoid conflict

zones all together. erin? >> thank you. makes it difficult to ply. in certain parts of the world or around the world. still to come, the kay office crash site. why and heat the u.s. been there yet. is there any way they checked whether this plane was civilian? we needed 30 new hires for our call center.

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and find out more about our two-year price guarantee. comcast business. built for business. breaking news on malaysia flight 17, the voice and data recorders, so-called black boxes, have been handed over by pro russian rebels. phil was in the room and saw that transfer happen. it's been four days since the triple 7 was shot down. there are concerns there was tampering with evidence. as for families with those who were murdered, they may soon be able to give their loved ones a farewell. there is a train carrying car after car of the victims making uts way it a city of kharkiv.

amsterdam is home to so many on the train. >> reporter: in refrigerator train car webs 282 bodies lie in identical black bags, tagged laggage sits on the platform as the train leaves the region. it has been days offing agony a insult waiting for the release of their loved ones. the fredericks in amsterdam lost their son in the crash. >> i want the body. they can have everything. i want the body. >> take their iphone webs take their money, take everything. >> with blatant disregard, local miners coming off their shift, walking through the scene, helping recover bodies, hardly trained investigators. flight data recorders, so-called black boxes, seized at the site,

plainly visible in this video and handed over to pro russian rebels. >> the separatists finally handing them over to malaysia. >> this is a war zone hardly a safe place to conduct thorough investigation. u.n. observers say evidence is being stepped on and contaminate bid people they call thugs. rebels did grant international investigators on the site and will continue to. but rebels are in control of the site. >> president putin needs to realize that enough is enough. this is not between ukraine and russia. this is an international and global conflict. >> one that reaches from northern europe to the family in pe nang malaysia, parent of

flight attendant. >> is it important for you to see your son again, to say good-bye? >> yes. that's the most important thing. even though we say good-bye it a dead body, but at least we have the opportunity to see, look at him, and say good-bye. >> it is hard to watch that. and i know that they may be some of the ones who get to see their son. but some of the bodies are still missing. right? >>. >> reporter: yeah. you're talking about 16 people who are not in tact. they have not been able to find 16 bodies. this next part i'm going to tell you is a bit difficult to hear but it highlights the brutality of how the people died. 82 body parts are also aboard that plane -- also aboard the train. so the families in many cases

won't be able to bury something that they recognize. but if you talk it a lot of families, they say dna evidence, they want to be part of it and want to bury something. >> they want finality. thank you. tonight an anti-aircraft weapon, russian made, took down flight 17. kwet is why. i want to bring in colonel frank cona. this is an important point. this is the evidence we have seen thus far, a picture released by ukrainian intelligence, of abuk, that they say was going over the border, first, show us what we are looking at over the system. >> this is a launcher and radar. this is one piece of the system. this is the lethal part. the one that fires the missile. >> this is the one where we can see everybody, so you can see there are two missiles here and

this comes, this is the one miss pg. >> this is the one missing. >> when you talk about this part of the system, this is at an air show. the russians put this picture out. there are multiple vehicles here. all part of the system? >> basically three vehicles here. this is the transporter launch are we saw. this is the important part here. this is the surveillance radar, iff system. >> just circle that so people can see it. this is the command post here, with its antennas. so it takes the whole system to make this run effectively. you can run it in a stand alone mode with this, but you are limited in the information that you can have. >> so what we are looking at here, the three boxes on top of the tank looking vehicle, that is how you would communicate with a plane in the sky. >> you wouldn't communicate with the aircraft. you would be interrogating the aircraft. track it, determine height. interrogate the iff system, transponder on the aircraft. the aircraft would respond with

the code that says, i'm a civilian aircraft, malaysian aircraft, this altitude, this heading. all of the information to know that's a friendly aircraft. >> now, let's go inside and play this. this is what they would be looking at. blips on the screen when you're inside the buk. this is a russian video. they show what it is like inside. then freeze it here on that screen. show me what i'm looking at here. >> this is the full up system. this is where you have everything feeding into it. different colors here and one is hostile and one is friendly. however they color-coded it. this is what you should see. how you know what you're shooting at. normally when a run a stand-alone, you have no idea if it is friend or foe. >> could you broadcast you were civilian aircraft. >> very difficult. >> and lie about who you are.

>> you could. but with all of the systems, it is almost impossible. >> plus, you would never think of saying, i'm malaysian triple 7. that plane wasn't supposed to be there. it was off its route. there would be no way you would fake that. >> right. they assume there is an aircraft, it must be hostile. there was a ukrainian air force plane there the day before. >> that's why they may have done this. so bottom line is, there is incredible irresponsibility, from the picture we have, operating only with missiles and not with systems that would have enabled anyone to use this the way they would or to determine -- >> totally irresponsibility. no way they should have operated this -- i can't believe the russians would let tlem do this. i have to conclude that they didn't have there or have it hooked up or didn't know what they were doing. >> thank you very much colonel

francona. >>. up next, the parents of one of the passengers "outfront." a their daughter, smart, beautiful, accomplished young woman. only on that plane because she had to work the day before and missed her flight. in the middle east, two americans died in the fighting. we'll be back. [ female announcer ] we help make secure financial tomorrows a reality for over 19 million people. [ alex ] transamerica helped provide a lifetime of retirement income. so i can focus on what matters most. [ female announcer ] everyone has a moment when tomorrow becomes real. transamerica.

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and get the fastest wifi included. comcast business. built for business. moments ago, pro russian rebels handed over the jets' two black boxes to investigators in ukraine. the black boxes perhaps to tell us something about the plane's final moments. 298 passengers on board that flight. among them, 25-year-old fatia, flying to australia to see her parents. she was a superwoman in aerospace engineer. she even started her own company . >> i'm fatima, aerospace engineer. i'm committed to bringing aerospace closer to you. >> she is seen here lecturing in

beijing, talking about a phone that keeps families connect. she loved kung fu, played it n a rock band and was involved in arrow flight. there are no words that can describe what you're going through. we are so sorry and people around the world cannot comprehend what you are enduring at this moment. what have you heard about where your daughter is now? >> according to our knowledge, she has been on this plane. and for sure she went down.

during the missile hit. but still we have help hope, we have hope, because we believe in survivors, survivors of this catastrophe and is still are body missing and it was the message 100 bodies may be casualties, may be survivors. >> i know you must be holding out that hope. it has happened before. angela, when did you find out that something had gone wrong with the flight? >> my husband is a medical doctor here and one of his patients came and said to him, a plane has been shot down and this patient knew that our daughter should come from amsterdam. and it was directly on friday.

in the morning. so we checked if it was the flight. if was the flight. and he rang me and said to me, our daughter was on the flight. it was shot down by russian terrorists. so in this moment, i knew it happened. but in the same moment i thought, our daughter is a survivor. a survivor. it came instantly. and we said, yes. so this was the moment and i got this message at home in morning. i was just preparing to go to airport and make everything ready to welcome her in the next hours. >> angela, we are looking at pictures of your daughter. she was a businesswoman, going to be an astronaut.

she was a superwoman and beautiful on top of that. what would you like to say about her? >> what i would tell about her, she is one of the most beautiful persons i have met in my life from baby time until every time we have been together. and just in the last three weeks, we have always been on skype whenever was the time. she was just taking the next level and she was innovative. she was creative. and she always said to me, mom, i just don't know where i get it from. and we supported her whenever we could because we believed in the face of the young generation of the 21st century. >> angela and george, thank you so much. thank you so much. >> thank you. thank you so much.

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>> reporter: matt steinberg, two israeli soldiers who share bond in service and debt.

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earlier we reported opt technology that would allow passenger jets to missiles. you see how this technology would work. this is a video that we'll show you. the plane starts to fire back basically almost starts to look like a military plane. but it's able to fire back at those missiles. we did this report and concluded that it isn't something you can scale up. the only way for commercial planes to avoid a horrific incident with an incredible loss of innocent lives is to avoid

war zones altogether. but is that possible? how many other hot spots, war zones are passengers flying over every single minute? right now? an out front investigation tomorrow night. thanks so much for joining us. we'll see you back here tomorrow. our continuing coverage of malaysia 17 continues now with anderson. good evening. thanks very much for joining us. tonight there are parents mourning lost children eastern friends mourning friends. the world is mourning health care workers and teach eshz, a grandfather mourning the loss of a grandson, something no grandfather should ever experience. it is impossible to appreciate what he and so many others are going through since the downing of malaysian airlines flight 17. it's easier, thank goodness to see a little what made them love the ones they lost, in fact, it could be a tragedy's redemption that the love in one's heart becomes the love in many hearts. it spreads with every