newsroom." i'm miguel marquez. >> and i'm deborah feyerick. right now, two enormous stories growing in scope. >> fighting in ukraine and the middle east show few signs of slowing down despite diplomatic pressure or talks of cease-fire. at least 30 people died in eastern ukraine, including two children, as government forces advanced on a rebel-held city. still, the malaysia crash site remains out of reach of investigators. and in the mid-east, is it a cease-fire or not? both sides ratcheting up the rhetoric and the fighting as israeli forces look to expand their offensive. speaking to cnn, israel's prime

minister says enough talk, hamas must surrender its weapons. >> hamas is simply continuing all of its operations and israel will not let this terror operation decide when it's convenient for them and not convenient for them to attack our people. when it's convenient for them to restock and reload and when it's not convenient for them. we'll do whatever is necessary to protect our people. >> and president obama spoke by phone today with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. the president, once again, condemned the rocket attacks on israel and voiced support for israel's right to defend itself. at the same time, the president shared concerns about the riding number of palestinian deaths as well as the loss of israeli lives. president obama renewed his call for an immediate and conditional cease-fire. 6,000 have been wounded since this began six weeks ago.

two israeli civilians have also died. let's bring in karl penhaul standing by in gaza and sara sidner in jerusalem. karl, first to you. you have new information about the explosion on thursday that killed 16 people at a shelter in gaza. what is the latest? >> reporter: that is what is occupying all of our attention tonight, a statement from the military. we have to be precise about their language. this, of course, was a sensitive issue and in that explosion, according to the authorities and what cnn team's observed and reported on that day, 16 killed and more than 200 wounded. now the military is coming forward and saying it caused the explosion. the israeli military saying that a single errant mortar caused that explosion. however, the israeli military says it was extremely unlikely anybody was killed and goes on

to add that it rejects the claim that people were killed the the israeli military does accept as does eyewitnesss on the ground that there had been intense fighting going on during the course of the day. what has the reaction been? after all, that school was a designated united nations' shelter. hundreds were packed in there trying to flee from the war raging around them and tonight the spokesman says the israeli military was aware that school was being used as a shelter for hundreds of people. we asked to evacuate them and the united nations never got that approval. now the israeli military appears in its statement to be saying that there may not have been anyone in that school. that contradicts what we reported on the day, it contradicts what the united nations said on that day. we observed evidence of what may have caused that blast and some of what we observed is

consistent with what the israeli military is now reporting. we noticed a single debt nation point. we saw a blast radius of shrapnel about 30 or 40 yards across. that would be consistent with a mortar rounds. security consultants also suggested that that mortar round, because there was only a shallow indentation in the ground and not a full crater, our security consultants suggested that mortar would have been sent to air burst. that means a mortar would have exploded above the ground before it hit the ground and that it was designed that way to cause maximum damage on enemy fighters but, in this case, fell into the courtyard that the united nations and media organizations, including our own, were reporting was full of displaced people at the time. >> and carl, just to be clear, when you were there, you did see that there were people there, that it was not empty.

is that correct? >> reporter: by the time our first cnn seem arrived on the scene, the ambulances were coming out of the school so our cnn team followed that group up a few blocks to the hospital and that's where they observed -- i apologize. our lights have gone out. that's one of the problems, power is back and forth, partly as a result of the war. what i was telling you is that our cn ncn teams observed ambulances coming out of the hospital and they talked to multiple witnesses, multiple victims. those victims said they had been at the school. the victims also said that they recorded explosions. the victims, incidentally, suggested there may be four or five what they described as shells that have gone off. there was no doubt that they had been in the school and that they had been bleeding and dying from

the school. >> and finally, carl, just one of the things that the israeli statement did say is that hamas militants had fired anti-tank missiles in the immediate vicinity near the school. is there any indication that perhaps some of the casualties could have been from that? >> reporter: no indication from the israeli military statement. also, that is not consistent with what we saw on the ground when a second cnn team went back to the school to look for evidence of what caused this explosion. we only saw a single debt nation point. an anti tam an anti-tank missile, a russian made cornett and anti--tank missile. we saw no indication of the blast or any kind of impact caused by that type of weapon. what it does, however, suggest is that hamas fighters opened fire on israeli tanks with an

anti-tank missile that could have been the cornett anti-tank missile and as a result they responded with mortar fire. we don't know if the military had ground mortar crews on the ground in that area but what we do know is that the israelis may battle tank with a single mortar tube, a single 60 millimeter mortar tube and round going into that courtyard could have caused the kind of blast radius and shrapnel field that we observed along with our security consultants. >> karl penhaul, thank you so much. >> now we go to sara sidner. sara? >> reporter: standing with me is a spokesman for benjamin

netanyahu. we have a lot of questions here and they are tough ones. the idf saying that they have done a full inquiry and they have given us the information saying we did accidently send an errant mortar into the school yard. we do not believe that it killed anyone. in fact, it did not kill anyone but it may have injured people. shrapnel may have injured people. how could they possibly know the difference between whether shrapnel killed someone or injured someone? >> first of all, what happened at the school was a tragedy. the pictures are terrible and no human being could not be moved. the question is who is responsible and for that we have to look ju dish vowsly and make sure we get to the truth. first of all, for a fact we know that there was hamas fire both in the vicinity of the school and hamas rockets were landing on that immediate area the day it happened. that we know for a fact because

the u.n. reported it and we saw it ourselves. secondly, we know there was a fire fight between our forces and the hamas forces in the vicinity of the school. hamas has a consistent behavior of exploiting for their own purposes. we lost a idf soldier because a terrorist was using a school as a backdrop. so he thought that would protect him. we have to get to the bottom. it's not clear that this tragedy could have been avoided but we can say that by turning the school into a war zone, the palestinian terrorists, hamas, were in fact deliberately endangering everyone in there. >> but they basically said, look, we asked to be able to evacuate this area. you know israel is very clear on the coordinates of this area and yet still a mortar fell into that particular schoolyard. >> we said errant fire.

we had a terrible incident four weeks ago and said straight away, it was us, our fault, and we said we took responsibility and president peres even apologized for that. let's be clear, when we make a mistake, we add mit it. in this case, once again, it's not clear what was the ordinance that led to this terrible tragedy. >> reporter: last question on this particular situation. and that is, is israel saying they believe it is hamas that created the deaths there? >> let's be clear, the u.n. secretary general, not israel, the u.n. secretary general ban ki-moon has said when hamas terrorists turn a u.n. facility into a war zone by storing weapons, by putting their fighters there and doing things that we've seen a consistent pattern of behavior, they are responsible for the activities that occur because they've

turned what could be a facility into a war zone. >> but to be fair, this school did not have any kind of weapons inside of it? >> no. we know for a fact that hamas terrorists were using the vicinity of the school as a shield to shoot it -- >> the area but not the school itself? >> if you're standing by the front desk and shooting and you don't want to be shot back because there's a school behind you, that's the same. >> reporter: let's move on to the cease-fire. the world is watching and it's disturbing to everyone. israelis, palestinians, americans, you name it alike. americans have more weapons. they are capable of technological things that hamas could never do. israel considers itself a moral authority. i think we can all agree on that. when is enough, enough? >> we have consistently accepted humanitarian cease-fires. on saturday we did a 12-hour

cease fire. john kerry asked us to extend it four hours even though hamas opened fire immediately. for four hours they were shooting at us and we didn't shoot back. at midnight we said we'd extent for 24 hours and we held off fire and hamas kept shooting rocket after rocket. some 25 rockets. only at about 9:30, 10:00 in the morning did we make a decision, look, hamas is not committing a cease-fire. it's just not sustainable that we hold our fire and then 12 and 8, some 20 hours and hamas was shooting at us and we were not shooting at them. it clearly was not sustainable. and then hamas opens its own cease-fire at 2 p.m. this afternoon. they broke their own declared cease-fire. it's not serious. >> i want to ask you, though, a little further. president obama got on the phone with benjamin netanyahu.

you were probably in the room for all of that. are these negotiations over? is everyone throwing up their hands saying this is war, this is it? >> no, we are working on both diplomatic outcomes and the military continues to protect our people. the end goal is to get out of this with a sustained period of quiet so israelis don't have to live in fear of the incoming rockets. we've had 2,000500 rockets. they are trying to kig our peopand we have the terror tunnels where they try to sneak out of the tunnel and pop out on our side of the frontier with explosives, rocket propelled grenades. we want to end this with all that behind us. we want to end this with a period of peace and security for our people. that's our goal. that's possible. either diplomatically or militarily but that's the goal.

>> i want to bring in karl penhaul. to be fair, you're killing our people. we've got more than 1,000 dead and many more civilians. i want to bring karl penhaul in. he's in gaza city. carl, you have a question for mark? >> reporter: yeah, a couple of questions. we, of course, went back down to the scene to try to observe and look for evidence of what caused this blast a few hours after that site was evacuated. our security consultant suggested that it the blast could have been caused by an 80 millimeter mortar round. do you have any information on that? could this have been a 60 millimeter mortar round set to air burst? >> i'm afraid, carl, i do not have professional knowledge to answer that. i know my colleagues in the military do. once again, they say they

haven't found evidence that it was ours. i do know the following, karl, as i said before, when we know it's our fault, we do -- we do admit that it's our fault. >> i was talking about this singler rant mortar that the israeli military statement says did drop into the courtyard and there were blood pools alongside the main building of the school crows to the wall that. area would have been in shade at the time that this explosion occurred. we also saw part of the shrapnel field down one of the corridors, the shrapnel that blows down one of the corridors which, again, based on our experience, people tend to look for shade at this hot time of day. also, the question that i'd like to ask now, that you've kindly

provided to us, that appears to be from a camera of a drone or perhaps some other aircraft, we did notice that it had the details on the edges of that video. could you tell us that if that video had been edited or simply if the details were taken out for operational security reasons? >> i believe it's operational security reasons, karl. once again, the idf comes clean if we've made a mistake. we have a track record on that. and once again, i'd ask you. i heard tonight the u.n.'s spokesman on "meet the press" on nbc, a lot of people, i think, rush to conclusions. i think it is more complicated that a lot of people thought at the beginning that people were killed, i don't deny. the question is, whose ordinance was it and in what circumstances did it happen? if there's an allegation that israel deliberately and

knowingly targeted civilians, that is not true. >> i want to ask you, mark, you talk through this. let me ask you, you talked about that you didn't know the specifics of this. >> i don't claim to be an expert on munitions and it's not fair to ask me because it's not my air of expertise. >> is the investigation over? because if an inquiry has been done and they've come to this conclusion, does that mean this is over and this is all we're going to get from this? because it is quite confusing. no, we didn't kill anybody, yes, we did injure but it's from very high up. >> we've got to find out exactly what happened. once again, i say for the third time, when we make mistakes, we add mit it suddenly we found that the u.n. said that there was rocket fire, not agitating

fire, hamas rocket fire. we know that there was a fire fight in the immediate area. there's a concept in conflict called the fog of war and i'm not using this for defense but anyone who's been in combat, whether it's a soldier or someone who has witnessed combat as a journalist knows that your shots are being fired, you fire back very quickly. sometimes it's complicated. sometimes it's the situation is not as clear. it's not a computer game. it's combat. people are acting under pressure. people are acting in defense of their lives. once again, can anyone tell me that they are sure it was an israeli ordinance? we have to think clearly and have to let the inquiry continue. >> it sounds like it's going to continue. karl i think has another question for us from gaza city. >> a couple of points.

i've twice heard him mention that the united nations heard hamas positions in that part of gaza when in fact there was a tweet from the underspokesman chris gunnes said there were reports of it and then retweeted that statement that he had no ypt confirmation of that. he did not independently retweet. we have three members of a cnn team including a security consultant going through the two main buildings of that school, as well as the courtyard. we found a single point of debt natio detonation. they were talking about three shells coming in but with the three cnn people on the ground for more than 25 minutes observed no other points of

impact, no other points of detonation and nothing else that would indicate anything other than shrapnel. we also didn't observe any rocket parts on the ground which when we have seen rocket misfires here on the gaza strip, subsequently we do detect fragments of rockets on the ground as well. so i thank him but would also ask if he could to provide information if it was a 60 or 81 millimeter and sent on air burst which causes maximum damage to enemy fighters. >> once again, i don't claim to have the technical knowledge to answer your question. i can only say that any allegation that israel deliberately killed people is obviously baseless. as to the munitions, what caused this, i think there's a serious question.

i, once again, think there are a lot of people who rush to quick conclusions. that's easy. especially when, of course, you've got hamas people who will say they are willing to blame us for anything when we have been mistakenly targeted people in the past, as i've said. we don't think the evidence points in that direction but we'll see how the investigation goes forward. >> all right. we thank you so much for coming in here, mark regev. we want to hear more about this investigation that appears to be going forward because we've gotten a bit of information but i think we need more. appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> back to you. >> sara sidner in jerusalem, karl penhaul in gaza safe, keep yourself safe. thank you. >> and we'll be back on the other side of the break. ñ

now, we've been talking about two deadly conflicts. mortars have been fired one after another in an attempt to end a 24-hour cease-fire that has failed. >> we are joined by cnn military analyst and bob baer. bob, we want to start with you and the situation in gaza. people are wondering, is a cease-fire possible at this point or is israel going to continue trying to increase its

security while hamas not giving any ground? what's going to be done? >> you know, i don't see any sort of movement in the right direction at all. i mean, hamas has got a lot more rockets. it's going to continue to fire them. it's got certain demands that the israelis don't feel like meeting now and netanyahu needs to start moving against these tunnels until every one of them is destroyed and i don't see him stopping. i don't see it. he can't afford to. >> colonel, i think bob seems to be paying attention to what all of the israelis are saying right now, that they are not going to stop with this. but even if israel is successful in getting rid of ham hamas altogether, is that going to be enough? >> if you listen to general flynn, senior intelligence officer at the department of defense, he says it may be

worse. islamic jihad may spring up as the new hamas. so we have to be very california there. as they perceive to destroy all of these tunnels and destroy hamas, they have to think about what is down the road and i think they have a chance to do that right now. >> a poll shows that the majority of israelis support the offensive in gaza and those are suffering more casualties. >> no. in fact, i think it's just the opposite if there were more casualties there would be stronger support to go into gaza and flatten it, frankly. the israeli populist does not feel that it can put up with this constant threat of rockets. i mean, they've lost relatively few people but if they lost more, i think you'd see the army come in from all directions and the conflict would get much worse. and by the way, i agree with

rick and general flynn. if this continues on and hamas dissolves, we're going to have something that looks like al qaeda arising in gaza. >> and probably beyond its borders as well taking up the palestinian cause for a group, for hamas, that they didn't like to begin with. >> if you look outside of gaza, this has become a recruiting slogan for jihadists throughout the middle east. if you look at the press and all of the social media, it's gaza and isis now that are rallying for all of these people. so while the israelis are maybe having success against hamas in the gaza strip, they are generating this recruiting effort for isis and for al qaeda and any of these other jihadi groups. >> you have to wonder because there's clearly a strong component as well, the israelis saying, look, if gaza used some of the money from the outside to

actually rebuild the infrastructure, it would shift the dynamics in the politics in the region as well. there's the middle east and ukraine as well. bob, international investigators have permission to bring security with them to the crash site. it's too dangerous, too violent for them to go in. do you think there's some sort of a timeline as to when these investigators are going to go in and the evidence has been completely compromised. >> i think it's getting worse by the day, deborah. you look at -- first of all, we're still missing victims of this attack. secondly, the fighting in and around the crash area is getting worse. you see russians pouring in more weapons, you see ukrainians more determined to take that area back. it's going to be too dangerous for a long time and i just couldn't imagine going into a crime scene like that and making sense of it after such a long period and, you know, i think a lot of answers are just going to be lost there on the ground.

>> gentlemen, stay where you are. we'll have you back in just a bit. while israel and hamas debate temporary cease-fire, a lot of us are wondering, what about a permanent one? is any cease-fire just a band-aid, one that will just end with more bloodshed in the years ahead? we'll have that.

more than 160,000 gaza residents say they have no place to go after their homes were destroyed but every attempt at a humanitarian cease-fire seems over before it even begins. earlier today, hamas finally said it would agree to a 24-hour cease-fire but israel said it had been responding to incessant

attacks by hamas. joining me is a human rights watch. bill, we keep talking about cease-fires. obviously everyone would like to see something longer. what does human rights want to see there as a more permanent solution? >> we want to see an end to attacks by all of the parties that violate very base he can laws of war provisions and longer term for gaza, the situation has been so bad for so long that the united nations in a report a few months ago said in the year 2020 because the electrici electr electricy infrastructure that it would be unhab table and with the assistance from egypt before that location with 1.8 million people can get off the ground. >> and i know hrw has looked

into several incidents. the boys on the beach, the u.n. school bombing there. how concerned -- when israel applies this sort of force in that sort of area with so many people nearby, this is going to happen no matter how careful they are trying to be. how many incidents now does human rights watch claim are just simply outside the bounds of war? >> well, we've investigated in great detail about ten incidents that appeared to us to have violated the laws of war. i think the message that the israeli military needs to hear is just a basic reminder. it's not unlawful to attack your enemy in an urban environment. this is not about you have to tie both hands behind your back. this is about following really, really basic norms. you've got to be sure that you're shooting at a military target before you pull the trigger and when you do, you've got to use a weapon that's able

to distinguish between civilians and your enemy. you can kill your enemy but you cannot pull the trigger. >> i know you guys have people on the ground there in gaza that human rights watch has watched over many, many years now. i guess, what do you hope the outcome is here? the israelis increasingly talking about getting rid of hamas altogether. does human rights see that as remotely possible? >> well, we don't take a position on the political reasons for going to war and we don't take a position on the political outcomes coming out of war. what we're really concerned about is this is the third major escalation and conflict in gaza and israel since 2008-9 and that has led to hundreds and hundreds of civilian casualties on the palestinian side and rocket fires on the israeli side. there's been complete impunity

on the israeli side. no investigation whatsoever on the palestinian side. that's got to end or we're going to see this cycle repeat again. >> thank you. will we ever learn what happened to malaysia airlines flight 17? the crash site is a war zone now making the black boxes a potential crucial piece of evidence. what secrets could be inside those boxes? that's ahead. i make a lot of purchases for my business. and i get a lot in return with ink plus from chase. like 50,000 bonus points when i spent $5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. and i earn 5 times the rewards on internet, phone services and at office supply stores. with ink plus i can choose how to redeem my points. travel, gift cards, even cash back. and my rewards points won't expire. so you can make owning a business even more rewarding. ink from chase. so you can.

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dutch investigators trying to reach the plane crash site were prevented again today. they hope the black boxes will provide crucial evidence so investigators can understand the final moments leading to the disaster. >> cnn aviation analyst miles o'brien, clive irving and david soucie. when you think about it, it took 12 seconds for that missile to reach the plane n that time, do you think the pilots would have been aware that they were about to be hit? would there be anything on that black box suggesting that? >> i don't think there will be. where the investigation is going to lead, though, was there an attempt to communicate with the aircraft before the missile was shot? that's the conclusive evidence that needs to be put forth. in this case, no, i don't think

they would have known. >> this is a time of war. usually if you're firing at somebody you think is their enemy, you are not going to ask whether this is a passenger plane. >> actually, you are. >> you are? >> under command and control in any war zone, especially with this type of weapon, it's required that they have that command and control. in this case, we're suspicious that there's no man and control and there in lies the crime. >> miles, the malaysian government has apparently signed a deal with ukraine to get at this site. do you have any idea sort of how that deal would work and how they could possibly insert individuals around that crash site? >> it doesn't seem very practical to me right now, miguel. it's a nice idea but who really controls that piece of turf? now the ukrainians in kiev, the rebels do but they don't seem inclined to protect the investigation. all roads lead back to moscow and moscow doesn't seem inclined to allow a perimeter around this

crash site. dave has been talking about this quite a bit. i think what we're seeing here is a digital investigation. there are copious amounts of images out there. some of them taken as you would as if you were a crash scene investigate with geocoding capability. they are all on the web for everybody to see. it is absolutely rock solid certain that this was taken apart by shrapnel. there's no question about that. >> yeah. >> so what happens in the black boxes is important. more information is always better than less. but a lot of the key pieces are elsewhere anyway, if you will. >> so clive, we want to bring you in as well. when we look at the black boxes, when we look at all of the evidence, it's not just the evidence in the black boxes that is going to provide details as to what happened but also the pieces of the wreckage. do you, in your heart, believe that any of the wreckage would be brought back and piece together the way it's normally done under usual circumstances?

>> well, i think the thing here is that the investigation would normally be in a preliminary at a normal crash site and i think we have the basic -- >> clive, we're having a little bit of trouble hearing you. there's interference on your end. we're going to ask you to redial in and in the meantime we want to go to david. david, when you think about this, you look at all of the evidence that's been pieced together, really we think of twa 800 and all of these other incidents. the only thing that you can hope for is recovering the bodies. no? >> at that point it has to be the first priority. certainly we look at satellite images that come from the airbus defense and from all source.

and what they are telling me and what we can see is there are areas that have not been investigated yet. there's clearly areas of debris. there's no tracks of people walking out and investigating these areas. the entire perimeter needs to be surrounded. president putin is the only one that can say and told us at that time he could do everything that he could. mr. putin, please do what you said you would do on july 18th and do what you can to support and honor the dignity of these people. it's an awful situation. >> no question. all right. gentlemen, stay with us. we're going to go back to this. who can keep this crash site safe? there's a group that might be able to do it. keep in mind, this is miles long, nato. does that group want to get involved in ukraine's war or could their involvement actually make things worse? moderate to severe is tough, but i've managed.

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leading to international outrage and calls to action, one big player has been out of the scene and that's nato. >> and victims and their possessions left scattered in the fields for days is at the mercy of pro-russian separatists controlling the area. the clean-up of the wreckage is expected to begin soon but the only people there are unarmed dutch policemen along with the ukrainian government which wants to review their actual presence

there. >> australia is putting a team together to review the site but securing the scene could be risky. here's what mark rutte said today. >> translator: with the destabilizing of the situation, we would have to bring in more than a massive military setup. it's a big geopolitical risk close to the russian border. this option is simply not realistic and we must put it aside. >> nato did make a short mention of the crash on the website calling for a full investigation but nothing else. and that is all that nato has asked for so far. >> exactly. nato reported that the movement of russian arms to eastern ukraine operations to secure the area right now is simply off the table. here to discuss is lieutenant rick francona and cnn's bob baer. rick, you have to ask yourself, where is nato in all of this? you want to see it as a

collective hole against russia, against the pro-russian separatists. >> nato is not the vehicle to do that, though. >> what about the eu? >> the eu has its own military force. that might be an option but when you talk nato, you're talking basically an american presence and that's one thing vladimir putin does not want. you mention nato and ukraine in the same sentence, that will drive him into orbit and will cause a confrontation. >> bob, the dutch is getting caught up in the fight between the ukrainians and separatists. could action from nato effectively indicate that an increase in separatist activity? >> look, you know, the last thing -- rick is absolutely right. the last thing we want is nato. this is one of the reasons that putin has gone there in the first place, that he's afraid that nato is going to set up a missile shield and send troops. that's a red line, having nato

troops or any sort of nato influence in the ukraine and right now if any role in that -- even if the eu as well, it's only going to encourage putin to cause more problems in the ukraine. and what we want to do is step this crisis down and not make it worse. >> colonel, the u.s. has released these photos that they say is artillery being fired from russia into ukraine at the same time they are trying to figure out how to get this site secure so they can -- as we discussed earlier, this investigation seems like a si sidenote of what is happening there. >> they would like this to go away because it's getting in the way of their own operations and now you've got the russians weighing in by providing more material, they are sending rocket launchers and artillery across the border and this -- i'm sorry, but this accident

investigation is just second place. they don't care. they just want it to go away. >> amazing. >> so they will basically allow someone to come in, just get it out of our plate. we want to get back to our own political problems. >> well now all eyes are focused on ukraine and the various sides that are involved in it. specifically, russia and the u.s. gentlemen, stay with us. we'll be talking more about this. that's coming up right after the break.

before the break, we were discussing mh-17 and ukraine, and whether or not there's anything that can be done. i want to bring back bob baer and colonel rick francona. ben rhodes told cnn today that the europeans were going to have a series of sanctions that they will level against the russians later this month, maybe early in august. is it too late for sanctions? are the russians too invested in what they want out of ukraine? >> the sanctions could hurt the russians, but you know, putin has embarked on a course, he has laid down a marker. now, he can't retreat from east ukraine. he didn't retreat from crimea. he's got that. this is his next target. i think what -- if there are sanctions and they are too biting, it pushes him into a corner, vladimir putin will push back and we have to ask

ourselves, how much are we willing to go -- are we willing to go and fight for ukraine? >> bob, the same question tour is that where you see this going, are we too late for sanctions and how star the u.s. going to push? >> let me put it this way, i don't think the u.s. is willing to push on its own and only so much you can do with putin. you have to look at what did he before the olympics in chechnya, northern caucuses. he just flattened that part of the world. he will use force against crimea and more force in the ukraine if pushed. if we want to gone at full-out conflict, complete embargo on russian energy. i can't tell you the outcome but very, very dangerous. >> even a complete embargo when you think about it, because they want strong impact on russian economy, but minimizing the

impact. isn't that contradictory? >> putin can turn off the electricity and the europeans aren't are ready to go to the line on. this an enormous am of russian gas goes into europe, keeps it warm and the rest of t and the europeans don't have the backbone to take him on or the -- economic wherewithal to do it as well. so, it's really a dilemma. >> how do you handle somebody who has gone rogue? thank you, appreciate it. and malaysia airlines felt it was safe to fly over eastern ukraine, other airlines disagreed, so why isn't there agreement on where planes should or should not fly? what would it take to what have that kind of consensus? could it actually save lives? that's straight ahead. you're driving along, having a perfectly nice day, when out of nowhere a pick-up truck slams into your brand new car. one second it wasn't there and the next second... boom! you've had your first accident.

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sadly, we have had to report several air disasters recently, hundreds killed, families devastated come they have been prevented? why was flight 17 over a war zone? and if it was severe weather near the equate they're brought down air alligerry, flight 5017, could storms have been avoided? and how in this day and able of technology and surveillance did flight mh-370 simply disappear? bring in our panel of experts, clive irving, author of "jim worker the making of the 747," safety analyst and daily beast contributor, david soucie, author of "why planes crash" and miles o'brien. i will start with you. don't airlines regularly fly over zone -- war zones and what

would it take in order to change that so that all airlines get the same information at the same time, don't fly here? >> is that for me or -- >> that's for you, david. >> that's for me. that's for me. i tell you what information sharing has been a problem with airlines for a long, long time, done a lot to talk about the airlines between manufacturers, airbus and boeing sharing information and that's -- we've done a lot in the f a. a in the last 17 years. what hasn't happened, what needs to happen now, is the information sharing of this information about the war zones and that is not happening, why the airlines are getting together in montreal to discuss just that. the international civil aviation organization has not stepped forward and provided this information sharing yet and they need to do that. that is their role. >> clive, how tough would it be to do this, to make that sort of system work? >> i think it's a problem that lacks solution at the moment because none of these bodies are supposed to be coordinating the

information about risk assessment over war zones, none of those bodies acts fast. and they are very bureaucratic. first thing they do is hold a summit meeting, then have committee meetings and after the committee meetings, issue reports. this is what is going on in relation to the disappearance of flight 370 and what will go on in relationship to the accident in mh-17 and i think there is a total gap here. we keep seeing the same problem come round and round again. a gap here of an effective international organization that can have standard and consistent regulations, i must tell that you airline pilots are very concerned about this issue at the moment, because it's been left, often to them and the airlines themselves, where that -- to assess very different standards of intelligence that they are getting. >> yeah. miles, this is something that dave and i were talking about the other day, do we have -- how in the world is it that some airlines knew and made the decision not to fly over ukraine

and others continued to fly over ukraine, even though an an tin nov was shot down a week before? >> that was about the 12th shoot down if you look at all the intelligence that was out there. if you're paying attention to the news, you know that's got knot a good place to be. people flying over 33,000 feet, nothing happened. in the shuttle launches prior to "challenger," there were singed o-rings and everything was fine or before "columbia," foam falling off the tank and everything seemed fine and human beings wrongly assumed, because they take a risk and get away with it, that there is less risk. it's just the opposite. there's a bit of apathy that creeps in and hopefully i the loss of these lives will take away that apathy. it's a wildly, difficultly competitive business and so when airlines start talking about sharing information, that gets into third rail kind of stuff. but it's high time they did

because there is no international body that has stepped up to the plate and offered a way for airlines to make the decision. >> all right, miles, thank you, thank you much. miles, david and clive, thanks very much, guys. now, our international viewers, returning you to cnni programming now. and hello, everyone, you're in the cnn newsroom, i'm deborah feyerick. >> i'm miguel marquez. this hour, fast forwarding to the week ahead. >> look at all the stories you will be talking about and hearing about in the coming week. let's begin with our five questions for the week ahead on two major stories. question number one, will the ukraine war ruin the investigation of flight 17? investigators are ready to go and start sifting through the evidence but they are being told it is simply too dangerous. 13 people were killed just today, including two children, when rockets fired into suburban neighborhood. how long is all this going to last and will it affect the