thank you so much for watching us here in "the situation room." erin burnett "outfront" start right now. "outfront" next. major developments on the ground in furgason, missouri. police arrest another journalist moments ago. live in furgason. plus bomb shell results from the michael brown autopsy. was the unarmed teen running away from the officer or did he go after him? and the president on the defense of more airstrikes in iraq. let's go "outfront." good evening everyone. tensions are rising to note in furgason, missouri. i want to show you live pictures

right now, another journalist arrested just moments ago. as a large group of protesters tried to force their way into a building in st. louis where the governor has an office. these are live pictures of protesters, the missouri national guard is also standing by in furgason ooze residents gather to protest the death of michael brown, unarmed black teen shot and killed by an officer, nine days ago, now. we want to show you exclusive video. this is the body of michael brown and one of those officers is the officer, darren wilson, who shot him. there is another officer who arrived on the scene at this time. according to a forensic pathologist by brown's family, the brown was hit by six bullets. there is no efd of struggle between the officer and brown. calling into a radio station to present wilson's side of the story today. >> bum rushes and shoves him

back into his car. punches him in the face and then, of course, darren grabs for his gun. michael grabs the gun. >> we are going to have much more on the results of this you a top sieve michael brown and his friends' account of what happened. don, we just got word of a photographer being arrested. we were just showing images that came in. you just saw that right across if where your crew was. what have you learned? >> well, we learned that it is a photographer reportedly from a photo agency. had several cameras with hem. as he was awalking by, someone yelled, what agency are you from? we asked, are you from gedy? he nodded his head. he was not in the zone that is meant for journalists.

so they arrested him. we were live on the situation room and police officers came around the corner, and we're in our assigned spot, where they told us to come, and they started pushing us away as well. that happening live on cnn. and what is happening, officers in the middle of the street, some going down the street with bull horns saying if you are not on the sidewalk -- if you are on the sidewalk and you are standing, you will get arrested. you can't congregate, but you can march. as can you see and probably hear, now these protesters are going up and down starting at furgason and turning around and going back down to the street where michael brown lost his life and now they are scream nothing justice, no peace. you see the officers in the middle of the street there. as they get closer, officers get closer as well. but here is the thing, as long as they are moving like this, police say they are not going to

harass them or arrest them or try to restrain them. but you see, there's officer moving trying to get them to get off of the street there. as we have been witness to the rules kind of change. so the officers will tell you a certain thing, then come back a little later and then the rules have changed and they tell you you have to move. and you know, pretty much since we have been here, we have not had an issue with any police officers. but that was one complication that we had. thank you very much. that is the conversation that we had earlier. as you can see, if you ask people nicely, can you move, or we're working, in the middle after live shot, they will do it. and again, this is a couple hundred protesters here an there they go. ferguson and then they turn around and they go back up and down the street. so now they have figured out a way here to sort of go around with the -- or abide by the police, by police rules here. and what they've been told to do

and they keep moving. i have to tell you here, there are people here, the older people who are out in the streets, and they are telling, they've been on bull horns telling protesters, don't resist, do what police officers say, we want this to be peaceful and we want you to voiz your opinions, protest but do it the right way. don't let them put you in jail. >> all right. don. we will go back to don through the evening. >> we just want to be on the right side of history, that's all we want to do. >> thank you. all right, erin, we will see you in a bit. if we get a development, we will come back. >> we will look out for you, don. as you can see, people gathering already tonight where don is. an autopsy ordered by the family of michael brown reveals important things. they say that body was hit multiple times. david mattingly is live outside in ferguson. david, what did that autopsy uncover.

i know there is more than one. but there are pretty crucial things in it. >> that right, erin. we hoped to learn more about the fatal encounter that took michael brown's life. we did get critical information but we are still short on some conclusions. >> the autopsy ordered by the family of michael brown tells their attorneys everything they need to know. >> at least six, at left six shots. could be more. >> michael brun was hit multiple times in the right arm and twice in the head. he was shot from the front, not from behind. but dr. michael baden, nationally known forensic pathology hired by the brown family, can't answer a critical question. was brown charging toward the officer when the fatal shots were fired or was he backing away? >> there could be consistent with his going forward or going backward. but they are from the front. so it is possible. >> a source with detailed

knowledge of the investigation confirms to cnn that ferguson police officer told investigators that brown was charging toward him when he fired. this story was repeated by a callter a st. louis radio station kftk. a wilson friend named josie says brown pushed officer wilson into his car, punched him, grabbed for his gun and the fight escalated. >> then michael takes off with his friend. they get to about 35 feet away and you know, protocol is to pursue. sew stand up and yells, freeze. michael turns around and is taunting him. oh, what are you going to do about it? you're not going to shoot me. then all of a sudden, he just started it bum rush him. just started coming at him full speed. so he just started shooting and he just kept coming. >> the caller says brown went

down two or three feet in front of wilson. there is no gunshot residue on brown's body and no signs of physical altercation. te believe brown could have survived had it not been to the final shot to his head. >> and it's important to note tonight that we're still have no conclusive evidence right now of whether or not michael brown actually had his hands up as some eyewitnesss claim at the time he was shot. they are also looking closely at that fatal head wound. he is a very tall man. so it is possible he was leaning forward, perhaps falling, at time that bullet struck him in the top of the head and taking his life. again,some questions an so few answers. erin? >> david matding mattingly.ting. thank you very much. more and more people are gathering with the national guard outside in ferguson. the attorney for michael brown, good to have you with us, sir,

let me just start with this. what you just heard. josie said that darren wilson was assaulted in his police car. he fired the first shot after brown started to bum rush him. what's your reaction it that? >> i think that's inconsistent with the story that there were shots fired while he was inside the vehicle. so now we have yet another story, another version of events by a person, by the way wh, who not an eyewitness. who is relying on double hearsay to give an account of what the officer is claiming took place. >> and on that point of eyewitnesss, she did have something to say about that. these are what she said is darren wilson's view of what happened that night. >> he thinks he was on something. because he kept coming. it was unbelievable. so the final shot was in the

forehead and he fell about two, three feet in front of the officer. that's why the stories are going around, because some people saw the shots to his head. ballistics will prove he wasn't shot in the back like the other people were saying. >> what do you think about the possibility of what she said there, because he was running towards him and only a couple feet away, it may appear to be execution style to a witness, but she is saying it wasn't. >> first of all, i think it is an incredulous story to begin with. the notion that mike brown, jr would turn around to a police officer who just fired shot at him and say, you're not going to shoot me, is absolutely ludacris. he already shot at mike brown. that's why he was running away. so here is a guy running away at -- from an officer who just finished shooting. so now he will turn around and allow this officer now to have target practice on his body.

it makes absolutely no sense what she said. and again, it is a frepd who is recounting third, fourth hand information. so i will give her the benefit of the doubt that perhaps some of the information got lost in translation. >> anthony, what do you think motivation was for what you are saying what happened. what is the motivation for darren wilson to start shooting at mike brown? >> you know, that's a dangerous thing for me to do is try to speculation what a person's motivation would be. i think there is probably something in his history that will talk about his motivation. i don't know what kind of animosity he carries inside of him on a regular basis. but i will tell you this, it sounds from the initial contact with mr. brown that this officer was not particularly pleased with the way the struggle might have turned out before mr. brown was trying to get away from him and perhaps he was upset about

that and didn't -- and wanted to exact retribution against mr. brown for that. that is speculation. but that with make sense to me. >> he was intimidated about his side or -- or was it race? >> if it is size and weight, why are you getting out of the car and chasing him? those are scenarios that boggles the mind. if i'm afraid of you then why am i engaging you? why not take a fall back situation. cause your own fear and say, i'm gooding it eliminate the fear of you guys. it doesn't make any sense and i would ask your listeners and audience to take that into account. >> anthony, jake shepherd spoke to cnn about wilson. you want to play a brief clip

about that. >> i can never i manning inhim, even if that situation, taking someone else's wife. let alone taking someone's life with malicious intent. you know. he is just the last person on earth you would think would do something like that. just shocking. >> anthony, jake, that was that gentleman's name, was scheduled to be with us tonight and he cancelled. he said he was getting so many death threats, he is scared. lives are now being threatened? >> anybody being threatened is not acceptable, if i understand your question correctly. i have been threatened. there are calls to my office from a deep seed of racism and bigotry directed a the me and my staff. so no, it is not acceptable on any level. black, white, it doesn't matter

np is not about black and white, by the way. i want it reemphasize that. this is about right and wrong. and that it. >> thank you very much. one of the attorneys to michael brown's family. i want it bring in dr. vincent demayo. thank you for being with us, doctor. i know this first autopsy and i know there will be a couple of others, one more from the police department and one more from the department of justice. but this is the first one and very crucial. when you look at it, is there anything from the report consistent with the officer's attempt that brown was rushing at him, full speed towards him? >> yes, there is. again, thank you for inviting me. the thing swb is, he he got a gunshot wound in the top of the head and another one from the eye going straight down. you usually see that when someone is bent at the waist and going towards a weapon. in which case the two wounds are

coming in horizontal and pitch forward on the ground. the only other time you see something like this is when the person is falling at the time he was shot. but the other gunshot wounds should not have caused him to fall. so based on the limited information we have, this is a little more consistent with the officer's account than the fact he was either falling forward or retreating. >> to follow up on that account of falling forward, those who interpret this say he was falling forward because he was shot and injured and that caused him to fall forward and that would result in with a you are saying. you say when you look at the shots and where they were, that in your view, that would not be the case? >> based on the limited knowledge, no. the only really severe wound or possibly severe wounds, since i don't know the extent, would be the one to the shoulder and chest.

again, this is based on limited information released on this autopsy. >> it is limited. when you look at the shot on brown's arm, h is a rus. witnesses say he was shot from behind the arm. is that possible when you look at the shots or no? >> no. you know, the doctor said definitely. i have to agree with him. shots are to the front of the arm. the shooter was in front of him. not behind him. >> dr. demayo, thank you very much. "outfront" next, we are watching the protest tonight. the national guard is on the ground. will we have more violence? plus, rapper, nelly. his message to pro testedors. and to police departments across the country, we have footage for you tonight.

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as our own don lemon is being pushed back by police while watching crowds, after a week of demonstrations and violence after the shooting death of a teen p.m. this is last night.

gunfire, tear gas, molotov cocktails. this does not look like the united states. but it is. this is some of the fiercest clashes we have yet seen between police and protestors in ferguson, missouri. did anyone listen to what president of the united states had to say about scenes like this. >> while i understand the passions and anger that ray rise over the death of michael brown, giving into that anger by looting or carrying guns and even attacking the police only serves to raise tensions and stir chaos. it undermines, rather than advancing, justice. >> already though, the state's governor announced the missouri national guard is deploy together area in an effort to restore piece. great to have both of you with us now. let me start with you.

national guard, even the scenes we have seen with the tear gas and molotov cocktails, that look like they are taken somewhere far from the united states within shocks people this is in ferguson, missouri. bringing in the national guard, is that right thing to do? >> you know, i don't think so. i think what they are doing is sending a another bad message to the people. they are are telling the people, they are wrong. when they have the autopsy and family and friends telling them what is going on. we clearly have three witnesses whose story doesn't conflict with an autopsy report. i think that the right thing to do is to put out a message to the people that this police officer will be arrested, but we're waiting to gather all the evidence that so that with don't have a speeding trial issue. trs. >> neil, what do you think? >> i think that again, my vision of the evidence, is different natalie's. we don't have the autopsy. we have an autopsy. >> you don't have ferguson's

autopsy. >> no, no, we have -- >> it is the one from the family. >> no, there's two autopsies. ferguson's autopsy was completed. >> we don't have the full details from that. yes, there has been another autopsy, we don't have the details from the one from ferguson. >> so according to what dr. demayo said, and i couldn't agree more, you have limited information. that what i'm complaining about all throughout this. if you give out piecemeal, you can't have the whole story. and it is sad, as a life-long resident of st. louis, watching this go on in this area, it is heart breaking it watch. do i think it is the right thing to do? the problem we have, and i have talked to a lot of police officer at the scene and up there, and they say wbt problem is you have a line peaceful folk up there because they have a statement they want to make. and they are trying to make that statement. but behind them, you have the opportunityists. you have the thugs, outlaws.

who are there for one person and one p purpose only. that is to commission crimes. the unfortunate part is one of the enduring image says people breaking into liquor stores stealing wine bottles. that's not the image we had in birmingham. that's not the image in civil rights movement. all of these people who had a peaceful comment to make, they are negated by this. that is just part of the further tragedy of this whole thing. >> natalie, do you agree with that? do you share the same anger and frustration that there are people with ne fairus intent. >> you also have angry people. don't act like the people of ferguson are peaceful and calm an okay. they are angry too. they're angry because they are being treated like criminals and

they should not be. ef law enforcement agency should be able to handle criminal looters. that no different than any other city. you do not treat your people and the citizens in your city of the united states like criminals. when all they want to do is protest an injustice. >> let me ask you both about what president said today. he is in a tough spot obviously but he did weigh in on this issue coming back out of vacation. here is what he said. >> there are young black men that commit crimes. there is no argument that there is a kroim and law enforcement doesn't have a difficult job and that they have to be honored and respected for the danger and difficulty of law enforcement. >> now how do you feel about what he said? should he have been more empathetic towards michael brown? >> i think that president obama

is in a catch 232 there are going to be some people who think he is not tough enough and some people who think he is only doing it because he black. they need it handle it. this is a state problem. they have leadership in office. and the leadership needs to step up and be leaders. >> neil, someone was in my ear there for one second telling me this. we have a picture, taken by cnn producer, of national guards mep on rooftops. is that too far? etch everyone is now seeing the picture we took at cnn. >> again, we have a situation where police have tried to handle this in every way that they possible py can. it's gotten so large, and i suppose there is some disagreement about how it manage the problem.

i think there has to be some centralized command. >> there is part of the city that is again an additional tragedy to all of the other ones we have seen. i just hate the thought, erin. >> thank you. as we look at live pictures of national guardsmen on the streets, gathering along with crowds. these are live pictures with national guard and to emphasize, during the day, we have been told they are a support role. now you see them on streets as you see here and also on top of rooftops. up next, more of our breaking news coverage on the ground in ferguson. grammy award winning rapper, nelly, a message from missouri. plus, an ins didn't we will show you here, changed police departments in the united states, including ferguson, missouri, forever. so factors like diet can negatively impact good bacteria?

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breaking news on the unrest from the shooting death of michael brown. about ten military style humvees, and national guard troops, and national guard members on the top of the storefront. a teen was shot and killed by police. it explode need chaos. despite mandatory curfew, ro tests spiraled out of control. molotov cocktailed were hauled at police. police used rubber bullets to disperse crowds. at this hour, people are gathering yet again. ed lavendera is out front. ed, you were in the middle of all of the unrest last night. do you have any sense of what the feeling is for tonight? >> reporter: everything we've

seen has been calm. people getting a sense of what the rules are like tonight. once again, police cordoned off a stretch of the road where we have seen the majority of the protesting. and obviously a great deal of tension from last night and great deal of concern about how tonight will play out. one of the things we will see is a team, a large team, of local clergy members who will come out and speak with a lot of people. one of the people who organized all of that is bishop edwin bass. bishop, you are out here talking to folks. how nervous are you? >> not at all. we are god's people and we are sure god will protect us in carrying out our assignment. we are excited at the opportunity to be vessels of peace in the community. we are actively promoting justice and peace and this is an opportunity to get a strong message out to the community. >> there's about a hundred clergy nebs out here, just the

way you're dressed. hopefully that sends -- the point of that being the image you want to protect here, right? >> absolutely. i've been out here just about everyday, but in street clothes. we thought it would make a strong message if we decided to come out in our uniform. so we have about a hundred clergymen that will be moving through the crowd interacting with the people as well as interacting with law enforcement. hopefully, increasing the opportunity for peaceful resolution of this situation. >> the point of this is to try to quash any kind of tension or anything-tsh settle things down before it gets out of hand. >> absolutely. streets of full of peaceful protesters, exercising their constitutional right. we want to be here to encourage those people and hopefully be a deterrent to those who would want to be out here for another reason. >> and as we we look around here, it is a relatively early.

how would you describe the scene? >> i think it is -- people are demonstrating. ing speaking their mind in a positive kind of way. it is good. we are prayerful, hopeful, working hard with the expectation that the evening will end this way, that we will have a peaceful evening in the community. and that's our goal. we are in support of the people who live in this community. first of all, we are in support of the brown family. i personally had a son shot down on the streets of missouri. i understand the pain they are feeling. the despair. we want to be with them, comforting them in this moment. but here for the community, encompassing everybody, the citizens of the community. business people as well as law enforcement in the community. we're hopeful we can work together and resolve this in a way that can resolve justice in

this situation and peace in the community. and ed, let me just say that we're excited because we think out of this most negative situation, that god is fwoing to repurpose a negative situation and use it to accomplish a positive objective and i see discussions going on at my church, other churches, meetings, collaborations, even this witness tonight that i think is going to result in some really positive changes in the community. >> good luck tonight, bishop. aaron, we will follow bishop bass and others with him. to try to be the buffer between authorities and protesters, if need be. hopefully the press enwill hope calm things down. >> guess what, though? >> eddie, thank you very much. for rapper nelly who fwru up in st. louis, the events are personal. the charity event and his concert paid tribute it michael brown.

>> i'm asking with you and pleading with you, put your hand up -- >> what i need to do in order for me to continue this show right now, is if i could have everybody, everybody from front to back, if you could just raise your hands one time for my city. just to show love and support. at least raise our hands for mike brown one time. >> grammy award winning artist, nelly, is out front tonight. you've seen the violent protests in ferguson. people throwing molotov cocktails, looting, shots fires. how does that make you feel this is. >> people have to understand that there is a lot of tension and people are fed up with a lot of different things. it doesn't make you feel -- it almost makes you feel numb because here you understand the passion that behind the majority of the people that are feeling

hurt. but you also want to remind each and every one of us that i support and i love and everything should be behind the brown family right now. to make sure that they receive the justice for mike. and a the way we change things going on is we have to change our strategy and approach to getting things done. and that's one of the things that you try to, you know, get out there as far as the word. but you also understand that this city is what this city is because of its history. so knowing that and me knowing i lived through a lot of history of this city, being wait that it is, it is more of a tug-of-war. there are a lot of people hurt, a lot of people angry. we have to find ways of bringing that anger down and channeling that into making something

that-tsh creating something very positive. >> nelly, you talk about the fact that you have spent so much time in st. louis. you fwru up there. it is one of the most he is gre gated places in the country. and people might not know that. after martin luther king, jr. died, there was violence around the country, but not in st. louis. since you grew up there, does this surprise you? is this something that's been bubbling beneath the surface and you think the jeannie is out of the bottle now? >> i definitely think it has been bubbling under the surface. like you said, all throughout history of or we could call it black history, we haven't taken this type of stance previously before. so it is surprising to a lot of people but not surprising that that it is happening. it is surprising when it is happening. and something with a young man like mike brown, we should make

sure that we get the type of verdict needed at the end of the situation to ensure that the next situation that officer will take as much time to think about doing that than this one did. that's how you change it. as of right now, we haven't seen too many penalties for officer killing young black men. >> you've been in touch with michael brown's family, what have they told you? >> first thing i wanted to do was send my blessings out to their family, send my strength out and also talk to them about what mike's positive things that he wanted to do out of life. he was a high school graduate. he did want to go on to school. i talked to them about creating mike brown scholarship and sending kids to school. in that positive light from his dream in sitting education. they were very much on board with that. the mike brown situation as far

as scholarship, i have a lot of friends, family and everybody on board as far asse entertainers, athletes, as far as giving a hand for the scholarship, so we can send kids to school from that area. to let them know that they do have a choice and it is not always going to be the way it is. >> nelly, thanks for talking. good to see you again. >> yeah, no doubt. >> changing the way police departments fight back. plus, president obama defending airstrikes in iraq. he says it is not mission creed, but what's the truth? in the nation, the safest feature in your car is you.

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turkey club. the fastest pencil sharpener. the fastest elevator. the fastest speed dial. the fastest office plant. so why wouldn't i choose the fastest wifi? i would. switch to comcast business internet and get the fastest wifi included. comcast business. built for business. breaking news. we will show you pictures of ferguson, missouri. these pictures just taken moments ago. this is the national guard. they've been deployed to try to keep peace on the street. some have been posted on rooftops. we've seen pictures. they kept a when profile through the day. no one was sure they would be visible but now on proof tops and on the streets of mergson. images have been shocking. police officers frankly look like they are in a war zone. there's a reason, though, why

police are so armed. it all started with one specific story, a bank robbery gone wrong. we investigate "outfront." >> reporter: shooting at everyone. dressed for war. outside a bank of america in north hollywood in 1997, this is what retired los angeles police officer john cap relly faced, armed only with his 9 millimeter handgun. >> i was right here. just toward come up over the wall like this. >> reporter: patched holes still there, bullets sliced through the cinder block wall like butter narrowly missing him. >> it just exploded. just boom, and it went through us, past us. >> we were outgunned that day.

it went on for 45 minutes because we were outgunned. >> two suspects. officer borrowing gun is from a nearby gun shop. >> we were goliaths with two davids. >> the department of defense transferred $1 million worth of military equipment to local and state police. last year, that amount jumped to nearly $450 million. and it's needed, police officer caparelli. this is him in 1997 when he shot one of the suspects half a dozen times. >> we were all shooting and they were still going. you have to have something to combat what's thrown at you. and it is obvious now, we've seen it.

that the criminal element has these weapons and they're not afraid to use them. >> the shootout lasted 44 minutes. miraculously no one was killed except the two gunman. two dozen others were wounded. felt in the police from los angeles to ferguson, missouri. >> those guys are trying to do their job and thinking, i want to go home at the end of the day. they are trying to do the job they are hired and trained to do and still go home. >> there's also a legacy with the officers themselves from this bank of america shooting. as officer caparelli details in his book, "uniformed decisions", he suffered from ptsd and had a stroke. three other officers committed suicide. there are positive impacts now after an officer-related shooting, there is counseling

and debrief. that is typically mandatory. >> thank you so much. just sobering to think about it, those committing suicide. president obama, rationalizing missions in iraq. he said it is still not mission creed. i'll remind you. [ siri ] oh no, i cannot do that. oh, and remind me to get roses when i'm near any flower shop. sure thing. remind you when you get to flower shop. i can't do that either. cortana, it's gonna be a great night. [ beep ] oh wow! thanks for the traffic alert. i better get going. now that is a smart phone. ♪ oh, wait ♪ it's 'cause you make me smile ♪ [ male announcer ] that's why there's ocuvite to help replenish key eye nutrients. ocuvite has a unique formula not found in your multivitamin to help protect your eye health. ocuvite. help protect your eye health.

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the president defended the latest american action in iraq today. after u.s. air strikes destroying 90 isis targets. the thing is, these strikes may have gone beyond the mission the president had initially laid out. here's our barbara star. >> more than a dozen u.s. air strikes hit isis positions around mosul dam to dislodge up to 400 militants from their h d hold. kurdish fighters say they are in control for now. the administration says the air attacks are not mission creek beyond the original goal of protecting u.s. interests. >> the mosul dam fell under

terrorist control earlier this month, and is directly tied to our objective of protecting americans in iraq. if that dam was breached it could have proven catastrophic. >> intelligence revealed isis was not doing critical maintenance on the dam and there were indications they might also blow it up. engineers calculate a breach would unleash a wave of water ten feet tall that would rage through mosul and flood iraq all the way to baghdad, a humanitarian disaster and a threat to u.s. personnel. a flashy new isis video full of violence and displays of weapons. no one knows how far isis may go next. the u.s. must face reality in iraq, the mission is growing. >> air strikes alone will not be sufficient to do the job.

at its core, the mission is to get rid of isis. the united states cannot have a middle east in which isis exists as an interestity that controls large areas of territory. >> the ranking democrat on the house foreign affairs committee also urging action sunday. >> ultimately we may have something we want. we have choices and the worst choice is to do nothing. >> they remain ready to launch additional air strikes if needed against other isis targets, including other dams in iraq. airen? >> thank you very much. out front next, an important update on an exclusive outfront investigation. imagine the luxury... of not being here.

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today the president of the united states says the united states has a national security interest in making sure the savage group isis is contained. one way to do that is to cut off the terror group's money. the u.n. released the names of six individuals they are helping fund isis. one of those menial peers in this video on the right. he happens to be sitting next to a person we told you about two months ago. whose link to raising money for islamic extremist groups.

in this video which was posted for the world to see on youtube, he asks viewers to donate money to that man's organization. an organization that is renowned for supporting a terrorist group. we went there and our full report is on cnn.com/outfront. anderson starts now. >> good evening, everyone. a bit less than an hour until sunset, tensions are high. they remain high, every new development in the week and two days since darren wilson shot and killed michael brown has raised the tension, the temperature or in some cases cooled things off. it's all digested by the men and women who are out here. many from here, some from other parts of this state, most without a doubt here