-- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com >> tomorrow "outfront" the shooting of mike brown unfolded in seconds. how did they react? we investigate. anderson starts now. good evening. thanks for joining us. we're live again in ferguson tonight where the growing calm from the streets is paying off in a very visible way. missouri's governor given the order to start what he calls a systematic draw down of forces. that's a major development. we also learned from an inside source that officer darron wilson's injuries were not as severe as some reported. activists today delivered a petition with 70,000 signatures renewing the call for the prosecutor to take himself off the case, something he again

today refused to do. we begin with the two people for whom this is not primarily a question of legal ethics or due process or whether the national guard goes or stays. we begin with michael brown senior. earlier today i spoke with both of them along with their attorney bing minuenjamin crump. this is every parent's worst nightmare. mike, how do you get through each day? >> i don't. i just glide through, i can see him physically moving around again in my life. >> you still see him at times? >> yeah, yeah but physically i won't see that, you know, that's a heart breaker for me. painful. you know, i just -- i can't really explain how i really feel

about this, you know. >> leslie, does it seem real? >> nope. >> it still doesn't? how are you getting through each day? >> prayer, family, support. >> that's what is keeping you going? you both met with the attorney general yesterday, eric holder. how was that? did he say to you? >> he just kind of talked to us from a man with kids h s himsel perspective. >> he talked to you as parent? >> yes. >> did it help? >> he has our support, you know, he's supporting us and he said he's not going to -- it's not going to stop. he's going to help us all the

way through, so that's a -- >> you believe him? you have faith in him? >> yes, i do, i believe him. >> does it make a difference he came here, looked you in the eye and met with you privately? >> yes, it did to me. >> in what way? >> because you can read a person and when you look at them and they look at you, your eyes, it puts some trust back there that you lost and he ensured it would be a thorough and fair investigation. >> do you believe, do you have confidence in the investigation? there is the state investigation, county, the federal investigation. do you have confidence that -- >> up until yesterday, i didn't. >> you didn't? >> but just hearing the words come directly from his mouth

face-to-face, he made me feel like one day i will, not today or yesterday but one day they will regain my trust. but first, i have to get to where i'm wanting to get to and we haven't even begun. >> it's going to be a long road. >> uh-huh. >> i mean, the grand jury just started yesterday. >> yeah. >> we learned it may not be until october that they come up with a decision about what they are going to do. does it feel like -- obviously, you want answers now. are you ready to -- i mean, are you able to wait? >> yeah, i want everything -- i don't want to rush, rush judgment, i want everyone to take they time so there won't be no mistakes and get it done right. >> you've talked publicly about justice. you want justice. for you, what is this for your

son? >> he's got to go to jail. so we can have some type of peace. still walking around with pay, that's not -- that's not fair to us. you know. we're hurt. and had to held him what he's doing, that he has his life. our son is gone. >> if the grand jury, if the federal investigation, if they decide that charges won't be brought, what then? >> well, the federal investigation and we'll look to the federal government to get involved. the family, as well as many in the ferguson community are very

distrustful of the local authorities and so they the the are putting their faith more so in the federal authorities to make sure they look at this and biasly and as long as it's fair and impartial and that it's very chance parare transparent, anderson, then people can accept a jury's victim. it's the secret grand jury stuff that nobody knows about, that's what is troubling. >> i understand, i think a lot of people didn't realize this, did you actually go to the scene? >> yes. >> that terrible day? >> yes. >> did you see your son? >> well, when i got -- when we arrived, he was covered up. so i didn't see him how the other people seen him laying in the street. >> did it upset you that he was left out for so long?

>> yes. >> is that something that's still upsetting you? >> that wasn't -- we couldn't even see him. they wouldn't even let us go see him. they just left him out there for four hours with no answers, nobody tell us nothing. >> leslie, were you there, as well? >> uh-huh, yeah. >> i can't imagine as a parent standing there as the hours tick by. >> right. >> before even getting there, somebody call you on the phone and tell you something like that.

that's terrible. >> i talked to sybrina fulton, trayvon martin's mom yesterday, and one of the things she said and she wrote an open letter to you and one of the things she said in that is that she was warning you that people will try to attack the character of your son. >> uh-huh. >> just as she said they did with her son trayvon. >> uh-huh. >> do you feel that's already happened? >> yeah, and even if this hadn't happened, people do that anyway. people do that anyway. but he was a teenager. he was growing up. he was only 18. he had a chance to make a mistake and correct it, just

like the officer. he had a choice, and he choose the wrong one. and was it really necessary? no. my son was only 18. only 18. >> later on, we'll have more of my interview with the parents of mike brown. i want reaction from "the new york times" charles blow who wrote about the challenges and heartache of raising young african american men in a society and cross fire co-host van jones is with me. van, it's interesting to hear the brown family talk about the impact that meeting with attorney general eric holder had, looking him in the eye. >> well, i think that was important and good. i think it brought comfort not just to the family but community. you see the before and after -- >> you think that had a real effect, the number of protesters tonight is very, very small. >> sure, i think that we're

copping down anyway, the weather helped and there is a sense, okay, finally responding. as a parent of two get close

to their child, whatever the case may be. people look at that and they see something that doesn't feel right, and if i were that parent, i would feel the same way. i still can't figure out the trayvon thing. i can't figure out this situation where you just don't give the parents any information or access to the body of their dead child. >> van, i was reading something charles wrote on twitter i think yesterday where he said, you know, there don't have to be absolutes here. it doesn't have to be that mike brown was an angel and the officer was the devil or that mike brown was a demon and the officer was an angel. if there was a crime committed, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with who these people are, but others argue it does. >> that's part of what happens is everybody rushes to the different camp like different tribes and we lose humanity on each side and reality is, there is no perfect teenage boy out here. if that's a standard for whether

you get shot or not, we'll have a bunch of dead teenage boys, white, black, green purple and no perfect law enforcement officer. my dad was a cop and my uncle retired from the police force. they are human beings and make mistakes. what happens is you rush into different corners and one has to be the devil, one has to be a saint and we lose touch with humanity and that's a big thing going on here, the polarization. >> again, it's polarization at a time when we don't have the facts and we don't have any forensic evidence, none of that, you know, there is a number of eyewitnesss that have come forward and we'll review that tonight but there is other witness whose will testify who we have not heard from in the public. again, a lot we don't know. thanks for being with us, areva, charles blow. thank you. coming up next, how so many people saw what happened could have seen little things different, something different. an expert on eyewitness testimony join us to talk about

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yesterday i talked to an eye witness that recounted what he saw. darron wilson under suspicion for nearly two weeks. i want to be clear, we do not know what happened. we don't have forensic evidence and only a hand full of witnesses have come forward and they have interviewed to come forward publicly, at least, most likely they will be testifying before the grand jury and may have spoke ton fbi, as well. michael brady the man i talked to yesterday was the latest in a string of person close enough to the deadly encount tore see it and at least parts of it and in all likelihood wish they hadn't.

michael brady certainly does. in all their stories, one thing stands out. the simple fact none of their stories precisely agree with the others. they all differ, someways large, someways small. these are narratives that have spoken publicly. we have not heard from that investigators have. you would think there is nothing more reliable or consistent than eyewitness testimony. the evidence, history says precisely opposite. in a moment you'll hear from a leading expert in the first. first, a small sampling of what some say they saw. >> me and my friend was walking down the street -- >> a police officer squad car pulled up, he said get the f on the sidewalk. >> i see somebody at the ferguson police window, some kind of tussle going on. >> he tried to thrush his door open but we were so close it ricochetted off us and bounced back to him. >> looked like it kid was pulling away.

>> as he was trying to choke my friend and he was trying to get away. >> i heard i'll shot. >> a shot was fired through the window. >> all of a sudden they take off running, mr. brown, he just runs directly down in the middle of the street. >> the police get out of his vehicle and he follows behind him shooting. >> his weapon was already drawn when he got out the car. >> i see the officer gets out of the car, emerge and just immediately start shooting. >> the kid body jerked as if he was hit from behind. >> he put his arms up to let them know he was compliant. >> he turned around with his hands up beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed. >> he turns around facing the cop and put his hands in the air. >> he was like half way down like he was going down. >> and they shot him twice more and he fell to the ground and died. >> the officer was firing several more shots into my friend and he hit the ground and died. >> michael brady for instance said he didn't see michael brown's hands going up. he said he saw his hands around

his waist. michael brady said there was a tussle but he couldn't see exactly what was going on in the car. joining us is gary wells, a professor of psychology and written extensively on what people think they see versus what really happened about eye witness testimony and mark geragos. i want to start with you. one of the young men in that piece, dorian johnson has given eyewitness testimony. we learned today about a record that he has that he -- when -- back in 2011, he was arrested for making a false report, giving a false name to police officers according to the missouri court website he pleaded guilty. we reached out to his attorney for comment. how much, if at all, could or should that incident impact his credibility in this case? is that something that would be brought before a jury? >> it's something if there is a case filed, the lawyer for the officer is going to try to iimp

him with. if he will give false information, that's a moral terp t terp tud offense and that's also going to play into the video at the convenience ystore because the argument will be by the lawyer for the officer that all of that stuff plays into whether or not you're getting a true account and the that report that you just did shows exactly what happens in virtually every case that you try with eyewitnesss. each eyewitness sees an event through whatever prism they are looking at and whatever their experience is. in this case it's compounded by the fact there is so much media attention and with the media attention, everybody wants to either consciously or subconsciously, they skew their testimony and what they saw to fit in with kind of that pressure, whether it's implied

or not and i think you're expert gary will probably tell you they did studies -- >> let me bring -- >> so fallible. >> let me bring in professor wells. most people think look, i saw what i saw, i know what i saw but is that how the mind really works? >> well, no, it's not. there is a big problem with eyewitness reliability. you know, when witnesses are viewing some kind of event like this, they are not viewing it for the purpose of developing a clear memory. they are trying to figure out what is going on. there are a lot of things going on. it's very chaotic. they didn't know he would be shot. when that happens, now, then they are concerned about potentially their own safety. they are shocked by what they are seeing. you know, it's a very difficult situation for a witness.

they are not -- they get the gist of what happened but they don't have necessarily the details. >> and professor, i imagine as time goes by that memory even morphs and changes so it's essential that a, that there be forensic evidence in audition to eyewitness testimony but also that investigators talk to eyewitnesss as quickly as possible before people start to watch on television or talk to each other, correct? >> well, that's exactly right. they need to be interviewed and interviewed carefully and well-documented. those interviews should be videotaped as soon as possible because what happens is the witnesses have gaps in their memories but as time goes by, they talk to each other people. they watch accounts, and they fill in the gaps. the brain doesn't like gaps in memory, so it wants to fill it in. that filling in process often

uses inferences and deductions and other kinds of processes that aren't necessarily reliable. >> so people don't even realize they are filling in gaps of things they didn't see? >> no, it's very much below a level of awareness. it is more of an automatic process that occurs. you know, we've -- there is nothing unusual here about the fact that these eye witnesses, multiple eyewitnesss disagree. we've been creating events for unsuspecting people for many years now. we know that you take the any given five people who all saw the same thing and they will have five different accounts. the interesting thing is if you have an event, which is not uncommon and which is only one eyewitness, people tend to trust that eyewitness. after all, hey, we have an eyewitness. when there are multiple witnesses and then you can see that they disagree.

then it becomes apparent that oh, there is a reliability problem with eyewitnesss. >> it's so -- that's so true, anderson. it's so true. you take a look -- it's been demonstrated in the last 10 or 15 years with the dna exonerations. they have done studies that show in these dna exonerations, the one over riding factor is the jurors relied on testimony because they thought it was direct evidence and it's infallible and in fact 75 or 80% of the cases it's dead wrong. >> wow. that's amazing. professor wells, appreciate you being on and mark geragos, as well. coming up next, we'll talk to the mayor of ferguson who joins me here live. we'll be right back. ve. at humana, we believe the gap will close when healthcare gets simpler. when frustration and paperwork decrease. when grandparents get to live at home

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hey, welcome back, we're live in ferguson. as night is beginning to fall, the mayor has been busy. he got a lot of attention when he said there is no racial divide in this commune the icom.

the mayor joins me now. let me ask you about that statement. a lot of people i talk to here were surprised by it. you have a place force, which has 50 white officers, three african american officers, the community is 67% african american. how can there not be a disconnect or a divide? >> i think there is clear differences between us. i mean, there is things that we continue to work on but we, in ferguson we try to work on shares values. clearly, we've continued and we need to continue more, obviously to bring, you know, resident whose feel that way, who feel disconnected into the fold -- >> i heard you say you don't believe any resident here believe there is is a racial divide. i mean -- >> and maybe that was too strongly of a statement. i obviously wanted to impress upon people the majority of residents in ferguson, you know, don't -- i don't believe felt that way. >> the majority of residents in ferguson are african american

and policed by a force that does not represent them in terms of race, i'm not saying race is the only criteria here -- >> you're kind of making it the only criteria. >> any company in america has diversity programs. have you guys not heard of diversity programs? you have three african american officers and 50 white officers? does that not make sense the to you? >> we have hispanic officers and asian offices. >> the force is 90% white. >> we have been working towards increasing the diversity. >> it's not that hard to be to find african americans to be police officers. ray kelly looked at your statistics and said i can't believe there is a police force that doesn't represent the people. >> the biggest problem we have is we're a community police force. there is st. louis city police department and st. louis county pay more, have more opportunities for advancement and most african american officers will eventually want to go to those jobs.

>> have you made efforts -- >> we lost a lot of officers to that. we lost officers over the years to people, to departments who pay better, who have more opportunities for advancement. >> not just your police force. you're city counsel, five out of six members of the city counsel are white. six out of seven members of the school board are white, again, in a community 67% african american, do you not see that disconnect. >> there the are other african american member in the community. >> theycity counsel. >> they have a lot of influence, as far as what the council members do. they are grass roots on the ground and attend the neighborhood associations week after week listening to these people. when i walk into a room full of african americans, they tell me what they want and think. we got to either go along with what they want or they will vote you out of office. they haven't voted us out of office. >> voter the turnout are off --

>> but municipal elections -- >> it's -- >> in odd years so voter turnout -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> well, you have national elections which has equal voter turnout but during municipal elections the turnout of african americans is low. >> i was just reelected. i was just reelected unopposed. i was reelected in an odd year, three-year terms, i was reelected in a national election year. i don't buy that's the case. african americans, historically, have not had as much turnout in the elections in ferguson and throughout missouri, st. louis area, we've seen an increasing number of african americans get involved in the local elections and in the primary elections and so -- >> just bottom line, you don't believe there is a racial divide here? >> there are -- >> i'm not saying there is -- >> there is obviously -- >> people asked me to ask you

this. >> there are obviously people who feel disconnected and we've got to reach out to them, no doubt. >> that is a priority for you? >> absolutely always has been. what i don't want people to get the picture art ferguson is 22,000 residents here that, whatever, 11,000 feel this way and 11,000 feel that way because that is not the case. >> it's not so cut and dry. >> right, that's not so cut and dry. so but there is clearly anybody who feels disaffected, we need to reach out. we always have and we got to reach out to the residents over here better. >> appreciate your time. thank you. i know you've been busy. thank you. i want to take a look live, a memorial, pictures of the memorial scene where mike brown was shot three blocks from our location throughout the day people come, you see fresh flowers that have been laid there, balloons, there is actually two memorials very close together in the location where mike brown was shot and killed and people are coming, leaving teddy bears, writing

inscriptions, leaving books, that is the community where all of this began. i'm joined by pastor robert white who we have talked to over the last several -- will you tell me again the name on your church. the greatest name. >> peace of mind. >> church of happiness. >> i love that. i don't know if you can hear what he was saying but he previously said there is no racial divide here, they want more african american officers but have a problem trying to reach out to pay as much as st. louis county does. do you believe they are really, a, that there is no racial divide and the government, local government made an effort to reach out? >> i don't believe they have. i'm not a local resident but i read those statistics and talked to the mayor and he's giving me the same answers and i'm just as baffled to hear him repeat them together, which is why we gathered together in this process to make sure this doesn't happen again. we need folks on the school bored, folks on the mayor

commission and police force. >> there is a voter registration booth that's been open today over there and seems like people want to try to get or receive that message here. >> that's not been the problem. the problem is not getting folks to register, the problem is getting them to come out. what we've done, clergy united, on voter, on election day instead of just sitting back and watching the polls, we'll have vans out knocking on doors, communicating with the neighbors, get out to vote. we'll take you there. >> would it make a difference if there were more -- would people feel more connected to the police force, african americans in the commune and others if the police force looked more like the community? >> it's been proven across the country when you have officers that reflect the people they serve and there is a connection, we had the young man get shot down in st. louis city. that means there was no relation where everyone in the neighborhood knew this young man had a situation, a problem. when the officer shows up, he had no connection to the

community so he shot this kid. if he had a connection to the community, he could say that's anderson with a mental issue. i won't use excessive force. >> i don't want to paint everybody with a broad brush. there are white police officers who are in this community and know everybody's name and it's not black and white always but it is strange to me when i read those static ticks that most corporations in america, you know, are striving to diversity. if you have a corporation where there were 50 employees and three of them were white and i mean, that's a 90% are white, that's not a great statistic. >> that's where i'll take the blame that we should take the blame and anger and protest we're having out here and take that energy and push ourselves to practice what we're asking them to do. we can demand it or we can go and change it ourselves. we can put our persons on the ballots. we can put our persons through the proper school and training to qualify as police officers.

this anger, this protest, this situation around mike brown, let's go to the polls and put people on the school boards and get involved ourselves and then we won't have to worry about them to do it. >> thank you very much. coming up, a crucial -- by the way, we saw two tactical vehicles around the same time moving into position. the scene is drastically different than previous days. the number of people has gradually grown since we've been on the air, maybe the last hour, hour and a half as people get off work and tempers cool down, people come out. you don't see the large groups of people moving around protesting with signs. a crucial element of piecing together the puzzle of what happened when police officer darrin wilson killed michael brown. it will be ballistics evidence because i said time and time again, we do not know what happened in those fateful minutes and seconds when mike brown was shot, we don't know

what the forensic evidence is, but we'll take a closer look at the importance of it next.

we learned this week a private autopsy the brown fam y familyiefamily showed michael brown was shot at least three types. >> reporter: how many times did officer darron wilson pull the trigger? police aren't saying. why does the number of bullets matter? it may be key to solving the case. >> eyewitness testimony is unreliable. we need to look at the physical evidence, gun itself, shell casings, this will help establish fact. >> the teen's family says brown was hit at least six times including a fatal shot to his head. but was at least one other bullet flying? >> they shot my neighbor's

building on the opposite side of the police car and later came and removed the bullet. >> here is the hole on the side of an apartment building where brown was gunned down. why is this significant? >> we know six bullets hit mr. brown. we know that only three bullets were recovered from the body, so we have a question where the other bullets are. >> did that bullet lodged in the wall come from wilson's gun. >> he could have missed him comple completety. it could have went through flesh and got deflected into the building. >> reporter: this is a 6 r semiautomatic gun but it's a .9 compared to his .40. .40 guns spread. micha michael brady said he saw brown

and his friend running. >> he was like half way down like he was going down and the officer lets out about three or four shots at him. >> reporter: forensic expert says that could explain the bullet wound to the top of brown's head. >> if you follow the trajectory of the bullet that tells us that the head, mr. brown's head was facing down. the explanation may be that he was falling. >> reporter: if brown was following, why did officer wilson keep shooting? friend offers this. >> he stands out and yells freeze, michael and his friend turn around and michael, oh, what are you going to do about it? you're not going to shoot me. all of a sudden he started bum rush him. >> reporter: diverging opinions,

bullets to explain and a grand jury deciding whether to file charges. susan candiottcandiotti, cnn, n >> i'm randi kaye in new york, we'll have much more from anderson in fuerguson, missouri right after this. [ woman ] the cadillac summer collection is here. ♪ ♪

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susan candiotti's role,

joining me now author of the book "into the kill zone." it's fascinating, there is so much focus because we heard from several eyewitnesss but we've been reporting how unreliable eyewitness testimony is. this will boil down to and is essential for prosecutors and everybody to learn is forensic evidence here and that we simply do not know about. >> absolutely. i think that the shot that proceeded the appearance, he's spot on in terms of it could mean this and that. the gentleman talking about the bullet path, was that a round that passed through mr. brown's body or a stray round that didn't hit anything? it is important to know how many rounds the officer fired -- >> we don't know that. >> correct. because hypothetically. let's say for sake of argument. the rounds that struck mr. brown's body were fired at the

appropriate time when the officer had a reasonable apprehension but he fired additional rounds where it was inappropriate. that could still be the basis for a prosecution. another thing they don't think anybody touched on is there is probably some other evidence that will come in in terms of trace evidence. there has been an argument that i've heard that there was some type of physical altercation between the two. if that is so -- >> pretty much all the eyewitness haves said that. >> right, if that's true, there should be trace evidence in the form of fibers from the officer's uniform on to mr. brown's clothing and vice versa as well as other things. the argument about perhaps there was an attempt to take the gun away, there may be touch dna from mr. brown's hands on the officer's weapon. >> there are conflicting reports whether a shot was fired inside the vehicle. >> right. >> and the second autopsy was not given -- the clothing was not given the vehicle to examine no eyewitnesss. so again, a lot we don't know in terms of forensics.

i've been getting a lot of tweets from vieweris saying we'e focussing too much on the eyewitnesss that support the case against this officer and i want to make clear, you know, the officer himself has not said anything. the police force has not said anything. they have not released forensic evidence. much of the evidence that may bolster his case or not is simply not known and that is normal in a police investigation, is it not? >> absolutely. what i've been saying from the beginning, it will take time. we have to wait for the evidence to be collected, for the autopsy to be conducted. we have that behind us but there is probably toxicology that needs to be done in terms of processing clothing, there is steps the crime lab has to do and all this stuff takes time to be done and you have to integrate it into the report. so once that is done, they will be able to have some sense of what all the physical evidence together suggests about what might have happened. >> we learned yesterday it may

not be until october what the grand jury decided ultimately will be known. professor, appreciate you being with us. a lot more happening tonight. randi kaye has the bulletin. >> the isis group demanded $132 million in ransom for his release. that's according to the outlet where foely worked. they didn't take it seriously because it was so excessive. the gao said the prisoner swap the that freed bowe bergdahl in may was illegal because the pentagon did not give congress at least 30 days notice. lawmakers asked for the ruling which was released today. dr. kent brantly is now an ebola survivor. today he left the atlanta hospital where he was treated after contracting the virus in liberia. he and another american nancy writebol fell ill.

wrig she was discharged tuesday with a clean bill of health. >> incredible. so happy for their families. in the second hour, more of my in depth interview with michael brown's parents, how they are remembering their son and how they feel about what is happening here on the streets of ferguson. >> this is not helping, it's not helping our boy. it's doing nothing but, you know, causing more pain plus it's shaming his name. i just need them, if they are not for the cause, they need to just, just go back to your regular life. go back home to your family. hug your son, hug your daughter. love your loved ones. geico's been helping people save money for over 75 years. they've really stood the test of time.

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-- captions by vitac -- -- captions by vitac -- hey, good evening again from ferguson. thanks for staying with us in this hour. young people, kids who seen their lives turned inside out and upside down over the last ten days, what they have to say and you'll hear in a moment, what they have to say needs to be said. they have been through a lot. many schools have been shut down. for the first time since officer darron wilson shot and killed michael brown, there is better news tonight than the night before. things calmed down enough for missouri's governor ordered pull out of the national guard. we talked about that tonight. new ways of looking at the