days as you know before they will actually do a burial. and during that time, there is a lot of laying on of hands on the body. and that's what they believe. in liberia, as you may know that. >> had a public decree now that the bodies had to be cremated. >> right. >> and it just culturally, that was such a shock. >> sanjay, thanks. >> you got it. thank you. >> well, that does it for us. thanks for watching. ♪ cnn tonight" start news. >> good evening. born in the usa, fighting for isis. what turns an all american named douglas mcarcher mccain into a violent jihadist, for the most feared terrorists in the world? how many more are out there? and what will the president do about the threat from isis. >> america does not forget. our reach is long. we are patient. justice will be done. we have proved time and time again, we will do what is necessary to capture those who harm americans. >> the question is are we on the

verge of air strikes on isis in syria? also, this could be the best clue yet to exactly what happened when michael brown was killed. what sounds like gunshots caught on tape while a man was video chatting with a friend. >> you are pretty. you're so fine. just going over some of your videos. how can i forget? >> will this tape answer the questions or raise even more? we're going to begin, though, the death of an american jihadi. evan perez joins me from washington. what do we know about american mccain and why he joined isis? >> don, right now there are still a lot of details that are not known. we know he is 33 years old. the fbi started investigating him several months ago when they realized he had probably gone to join the militants in syria. now we know that he was a member of isis, which is one of the more radical groups that is

fighting in that civil war. and we know that he was killed over the weekend. now until today, really, they only knew in the united states that he had some minor scrapes with the law, and he converted to islam about ten years ago. and his family said they last heard from him when hey went to turkey a few months ago, don. >> and how was he killed? >> he was killed in a battle with a rival militant groups. it's still a little foggy because there are so many groups that are fighting over there. one british human rights group that is monitoring the area says that they were fighting al nusra, which is an al qaeda group, the free syrian army, which is a group that is backed by the united states says they were killed in a battle -- an isis battle with their group. >> and evan, we've been talking a lot about the numbers, about how many others could be out there. how many others could be out there doing the same thing? >> we know about 100 americans are believed to have gone to syria and are fighting with these militant groups. well don't know how many have

joined isis. the fbi is keeping close tabs on as many of them as they can. but as you know, it's really difficult. a lot of times they only know that these people have joined these groups after they have gone over there. >> and the question is what is the real fear of here in america? i understand that, you know, the threat of isis coming across our borders, just sort of similar to people crossing our southern borders. it's porous. but that doesn't mean the moment they get here that something will happen, correct? >> right. that's exactly right. i mean, one of the things we can see as from this battle that this gunship was involved in this weekend is that some of these people are going over there to join the fight there. now, the fear is that eventually they're going to be trained and that they're going to come back here. they can obviously travel. so what the fbi is doing, for instance, is putting them only watch lists so once they know they have gone over there, they are flagged as soon as they get on a plane to try to come back to this country. today the state department even said that they can cancel their

passports so that they can't travel anywhere. so that's how they're trying to deal with it. >> evan perez, thank you. i appreciate your reporting. how many american jihadists are out there? the same question i asked evan perez and what can we do about them. joining me is rita katz. also julia cayenne, cnn national security analyst and michael weiss, who writes for foreign policy and "now lebanon", a columnist for them. julia, i want to start with you the same question i asked evan. i saw you earlier on cnn. you bring up good point when you say what is the threat of isis coming to america, and you equated it to the southern borders. >> right. there is no question that dangerous people can get into this country either through border -- illegal border crossing, or if they have a passport or a visa, can get into this country. i don't think that's right to question. look, there is bad people in the world tlchltd have sociopaths there are people that join terrorist groups. and nothing about this should

surprise us, you know, 12 years after september 11th. i think the better question is are these attacks imminent and should the average american care or be worried, change their behavior. everything we've seen, the fbi report, the fbi bulletins, the fact that mccain was already under surveillance is a good sign that we probably have some situational awareness of who is doing what should put people at ease. but understanding we're never going to get to zero. we're never going to get to perfect. what we try to do, given the terrorist threat is it's a little bit of whac-a-mole here. sometimes it's military missions abroad. >> can we get to -- let's talk about real quickly before i bring the other panelists in, juliet, what drove american douglas mccain and others like him to turn away from america and join a group like this? >> well, to put it in historical

perspective, unfortunately, every war america has been in, we have had people side with the enemy, quote, the over side. we saw this during world war ii. this is not unique to our times. and it is nonetheless scary to the extent that people are getting radicalized. there is a number of reasons why. one is obviously the internet. another is a sense of isolation, unemployment. mccain didn't seem to have a strong linear narrative about school and then being employed. he may have been a bit of a drifter. even if he was a nice guy, as they often always are. and they look for a sense of identity abroad. and look, there are sociopaths in the world who say i'm going to join isis. they show up at isis. they show up in syria. they get killed because they are joining something that is, you know, violent and ultimately got killed by u.s. force. >> people who become disenchanted for one reason or another. rita, you track jihadis online.

what do you know about this case? >> well, we were this morning -- actually, last night we signed a message on twitter from groups that are fighting isis in aleppo, free syria now people. and they reported about one of their latest battles that occurred in aleppo in which they were able to successfully defeat isis fighters. and they reported among their 40 something people that were killed, they found two american -- two individuals, two isis fighters that had on them american passports. and so that was something that really triggered us into start looking into the profile of the individual. and, again, it really didn't surprise me to see immediately his involvement on twitter and part of the social media that isis is so investing, investing

unbelievably amount of resources to recruit people like him. he himself had an a active twitter page that was communicating with other western fighters in syria and in iraq and in english obviously. >> i'm seeing a recurring theme here, michael. i'm seeing the internet. because, listen, these mostly men become radicalized. we have freedom of religion here. is there anything we can really do about it, short of stopping people going online? >> no, unfortunately i don't think so. for the better part of the past half decade we've been obsessed with the so-called lone wolf attack. not that it would be an al qaeda-style spectacular tantamount to 9/11. but things like abu mutallab, a guy who tried to blow up his underpants in an airliner above detroit several christmases ago. these lone wolfs have been inspired by clerics such as

anwar awlaki. my concern is there is a threat posed by returning from syria and reaching anywhere in europe and the united states. but also, look. these guys are incredibly savvy at using social media such as twitter, facebook, other websites that most people hadn't heard of until isis made them famous. they are also probably the most successful terrorist organization in history, at least islamic terrorism. they far outmarshaled al qaeda. they control a territory slightly greater than the size of great britain. what they're able to do is radical people already in the west. i mean, this guy, mr. mccain obviously went off to join isis with exactly that intent. he was living in the united states in minnesota. there are other people who don't even need to go to syria and fight with isis. they can be inspired by isis by its ideological proclamation, by the sermoning of abu baqir al

baghdadi and commit attacks on u.s. soil. >> i want to move on and talk about the search for the killer of james foley. it's really important. everyone is focusing on the identity of the man you see there in these videos. was the isis killer's british accent of surprise to you, rita? >> oh, definitely not. definitely not. and two things that were very important to mention about the isis beheading video. one is the fa that the executer himself spoke english with a british accent, which is not a surprise like i mentioned, because the number of british fighters in syria/iraq is very large. it actually illustrated by the fact that the british fighters in syria have their own media organization under the ban eof

tallhid. their group they disseminate for about two or three years a large amount of video, audio and twitter messages. they created their own recruitment network on social media through which they not only recruit, but even fund raise and even call on other peoples to join. and by the way, douglas mccain himself was already in communication with that specific group. in addition to the fact that it wasn't surprising, the fact that the executer himself, and that's again to this same message about the recruitment, the executer himself spoke english has a very important message here to everyone here in the west is the fact that, you know, isis could have taken an arabic speaker and fighter. for sure they have thousand of them, no doubt about it. >> the reason they took an -- >> they choose to take an english speaker. and the reason is for

recruitment. >> right. >> and when we're talking about recruitment online, if you had seen the reactions a few minutes after the video was released, the cheerful reactions, the celebrations, it had more than the element of intimidation. >> i got to go, rita. >> it has the element of recruitment. >> thank you very much, reit. at the thank you, michael. thank you, julia kayyem. when we come back, what will it take to identify the isis terrorist who beheaded foley? what will the white house do to capture him. and alleged moment when michael brown was allegedly shot while chatting with a friend. >> you are pretty. [ gunshots ] you're so fine. just going over some of your videos. how can i forget? >> will this tape raise more questions than answers? plus, a bucket challenge with a difference. we'll explain coming up.

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welcome back to "cnn tonight." while president barack obama has given the go ahead of reconnaissance flights over syria, the white house insists he has not authorized targets against isis target there's. i'm going to talk with this major general james smieder marks and former commanding general of the u.s. army intelligence center.

peter bine earth in and columnist at haaretz. and also back with us now is michael weiss, foreign policy and "now lebanon" columnist. general, you first. should the u.s. bomb in syria? >> it sure should, and it should without asking permission. look, we have great intelligence. intelligence collection is a matter of routine. the fact that the president has authorized reconnaissance flight, all that really means is they want to get a little more precise targeting on the already existing target folders that have already been put in front of them and the combatant commander can go ahead and release those things at any time. so really, that's a final step. it's not an absolutely essential final step. but absolutely the united states should go after those targets as quickly as possible. >> but general -- >> but it's only going to give them a tactical advantage, the u.s. a tactical advantage. >> but isn't the president in an awkward position? >> sure. >> how does he accomplish that? >> the first thing, don, is you need to create a strategy.

and the president and his administration has failed to do that. that's step one. if what the united states chooses to do and rolls into a strategy of chasing isis and tactically going after isis as targets on the battlefield, we don't know what right looks like. well don't know what the conclusion, what the horizon needs to look like. we need to take a step back and establish a strategy, but simultaneously, we have to be able to go after them in this large ungoverned space so that we can hold them where they are and stop their progress. >> michael, i want to play something. this is the pentagon secretary john kirby. he had this to say about u.s. surveillance over syria. here he circumstances the president has been clear about this, secretary hagel has been clear about this. this is a serious threat. from a serious group of terrorists. and we need to stay mindful of doing what we need to do to protect american citizens at home and abroad.

and it's been stated before. we're not going to hold ourselves to geographic boundaries in order to accomplish that job. 10 without getting into international law, for which i would be ill educated to speak to, i can tell you we'll do what we need to do to protect americans. >> a serious threat at home and abroad. isis is a serious threat to our homeland? do we need to take them on abroad? >> i think so. admiral kirby referred to geographical boundaries there are no geographical boundaries with respect to isis. the boundary between syria and iraq has been erased. you cannot fight isis in what is left of one country. what we're doing in iraq is good. it's prevented the genocide of yazidis. i hear on twitter that we might be doing airlifts to protect another minority population there. but as the general said, this is a tactical sort of initiative. it's not going to defeat or even

contain isis. when they are blown up or shot at in iraq, they have an easy command center in iraq province of syria to which they can repair. for all the talk we should be partnering with the assad regime, let us not forget until june of this year when isis marched into moses 8, an event that nobody seemed to have foreseen, the bashar al assad regime did not drop bombs in the province. i've seen so many arguments that state a simple and long-standing truth which is assad himself is responsible for the rise of this transnational terrorist army. and the general is also quite right, we do not need his permission to go in and bomb them. in fact, the abortive rescue mission that was conducted for james foley earlier this summer provious can send in manned aircraft. you can send in surveillance drones. you can even spend in special forces into eastern syria without the knowledge of damascus. i think we absolutely have a moral and strategic objective to meet. >> and continuing that, i'm

wondering why peter you wrote in the atlantic, you said if the u.s. doesn't act against isis, no one else will. do you really believe that? why did you rye wry that? >> i think it's true. i don't think there is anybody else with the capacity to try to act effectively against isis right now. the question i also wrote about who are our allies on the ground. i think we can hurt isis from the air, but we can't take territory from isis from the air. whenever we've had successful efforts like this whether it was in kosovo or afghanistan when we defeated the taliban originally we had allies on the ground. the kurds in iraq. so the question i think is who are our allies on the ground in syria? and we have this irony that the obama administration spent the last couple years basically saying that the moderate nationalist nonjihadist rebels in syria aren't really worth very much. they're too disorganized. they're not strong on the ground. we can't even really tell them apart. so who are we fighting for? that's the $10,000 question

here. >> who are we fighting for then? >> my fear is that the obama administration itself has repeatedly told us they don't believe we have allies on the ground strong enough or reliable enough, in fact, to be worth partnering with. it's really remarkable about face. i really would love to believe that we have learned something about the free syrian army and nonjihadist rebels in syria that has changed the obama administration's mind. but i don't know what it is. >> you're not sure who are we fighting for. that's probably a better way of putting it. general, how does bashar al assad play into this? you heard what michael said. he believes that it's really this is bashar al assad's doing. >> well, you know, don, as everybody has indicated, frankly, this is a little bit more than irony. the united states has a very delicate mission. it's going to prosecute, at least i would imagine they're going to prosecute, which means if they're very aggressive against these targets against isis targets in syria, assad certainly would gain.

and now we are supporting assad, an individual in a regime we've been trying to collapse and crush for many years. and if we are inprecise in some of our targeting, we run the risk obviously of invalidatings a sad a little bit. therefore isis gains. so this really is a sword that is going to cut both ways for the united states unless they do it very, very well. but i think they still have the obligation to do so. >> you think air strikes could end up empowering assad? >> they could, absolutely, if it's not done -- there are unintended consequences. any time you exercise kinetic power, there will be unintended consequences. the short answer is yes, that's a scenario. i know the joint chiefs and the combatant commander has gone through in great detail. that doesn't obviate the requirement to go after. >> thank you very much, gentlemen. i appreciate you joining us on cnn. we don't know yet if the alleged audio recording of the

gunshots that killed michael brown is authentic. up next what he has to say about what is going on in this recording. >> you are pretty. [ gunshots ] you're so fine. just going over some of your videos. how can i forget? when folks think about what they get from alaska, they think salmon and energy. but the energy bp produces up here creates something else as well: jobs all over america. engineering and innovation jobs. advanced safety systems & technology. shipping and manufacturing. across the united states, bp supports more than a quarter million jobs. when we set up operation in one part of the country, people in other parts go to work. that's not a coincidence. it's one more part of our commitment to america. ♪ so nice, so ni-i-i-ce ♪ sweet, sweet st. thomas nice ♪ so nice, so ni-i-i-ce

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welcome back to "cnn tonight," everyone. the fbi is analyzing that audio recording that cnn uncovered in ferguson, missouri. it allegedly contains sounds of the gunshots that killed michael brown. cnn cannot independently verify the authenticity of the same tape. here is cnn's jason carroll with more now. >> reporter: could this be the sound of the shots officer darren wilson fired at michael brown? the alleged audio of the incident captured by an unidentified man during a video chat believed to be at the time of the shooting. >> just going over some you ever videos. [ gunshots ] how can i forget? >> reporter: cnn has not independently verified its authenticity, but the audio

already had the attention of the fbi and forensic audio expert frank piazza. >> the boldness of the orange is reflecting either volume or mic proximity. so he is closer to the microphone. >> reporter: piazza first analyzed helps see the sound. particularly of interest spikes in the images. >> you almost count one, two, three, four, five, six. >> let's see if you are right. >> one, two, three, four, five, six. you got it. >> reporter: then a break. >> and then again. >> there. two, three, four. >> reporter: in summary, six shots, a short break and apparently four more. ten in all. piazza turns to another screen which focuses on the timeline and amplitude of the audio. he takes a closer look at measuring that short break.

>> so it looks like the last gunshot ends right about here. >> so fine. so fine. so fine, just going over some you ever videos. and it seems to pick up there again. so the area is approximately 2.7 seconds. you can say 2.5 to 3 seconds is the area of the pause before you hear the gunshots pick up again. >> reporter: a little less than three seconds, but enough time potentially to support allegations officer wilson fired on brown when he had his hands up, or that wilson fired in defense after brown allegedly turned and charged at him. >> it doesn't really contradict or fit in to any of the narratives that have been created so far. >> reporter: mark o'mara knows all too well about the importance of audio evidence. he represented george zimmerman in the trayvon martin trial during which much was made of who screamed during a 911 call made during the fatal altercation between zimmerman and a martin.

>> do you think he is yelling help? >> yes. >> what is your -- >> reporter: in the end, fbi analysis of that 911 audio was inconclusive. who screamed for help, martin or zimmerman still a debate. o'mara says maybe the audio from ferguson will be difficult. >> it could, for example, have mike brown saying something like i give up. it could have the officer saying freeze, stop, drop to the ground, whatever may have been said. so though we haven't heard it, there are some audio an a lists out there who may be able to drag out some more information from that tape. >> reporter: experts say those answers could be a while in coming. the fbi will need all the electronic information about who recorded the video chat and who was on the other end. and any other clues that may be buried on the audio recording. jason carroll, cnn, new york. >> joining me now, janet johnson, criminal defense attorney, alex ferreira, former

police officer and a former florida circuit judge and host of television's "judge alex" and sunny hostin who is a former federal prosecutor herself. i had forgotten about the george zimmerman audio. i had forgotten about that. you know, janet, before now we had no video or audio of the actual shooting. the discovery of this audio, if it is indeed the audio, is it a game changer? >> i don't think it is. i think it's the defense. i could easily spin this that the criticism of officer wilson was why didn't he shoot to disail him. as the defense lawyer i'm already getting my story together that i could argue he was shooting to disable him. and he thought he was disable and he lunged at him and that's when he had the kill shot. that's what that gap. i think both sides can spin it. and when that happens, the defense can argue this is reasonable doubt when both sides are equal. >> sunny, who do you think this supports? does it support the witness, darren johnson?

we heard at least ten shots, a quick series of shots followed by a pause and another succession of shots. >> i don't think we really know what the police officer's story is because we hadn't heard from him firsthand. even the police incident report that has been released is so heavily redacted. >> initially we did hear from ferguson police where they said there was a struggle at the car. >> i don't think we really know his account. i think in terms of the five eyewitnesses that i've -- their testimony or rather their depiction of the events that i've reviewed, i think the pause this the shots actually corroborate theirs version of events. it's very clear to me that every single one of them say there were shots and then michael brown stopped, turned around and put his hands up. i think then that this is extremely significant evidence for the prosecution. i think that jurors who listen to evidence quite frankly usually don't take their common sense hat off. and the notion, the argument

that somehow someone that is being shot, an a unarmed person charges at an armed police officer doesn't really make a lot of sense. >> go ahead. >> sunny, as a defense lawyer, i hear that all the time. officers say that my clients after getting tased have super human strength. now whether those how they perceive it or whether it's true, i don't know. but officer says that all the time. >> not to mention that purposes do things all the time you wouldn't anticipate. i can't tell you the number of times as a police officer i had somebody in the back of the police car a, handcuffed, taking them to the jail and looked over at the car next to me and saw a family horrified because the purpose was smashing his head on the cage. and yet when you get in court, the lawyers look at the jury and go oh, come on, the guy smashed his own head on the cage? yeah, they do that. >> that may be the case, but you have so many eyewitnesses, quite frankly that they're saying something that is different. >> those are the eyewitnesses we

know of. >> of course. >> because some of the eyewitnesss that we're hearing from sources, there are at least a handful or maybe a dozen eyewitnesss who are corroborating the police officer's side of the story, but they don't want to be part of the media spectacle. they don't want their names out there. that. >> is true. >> i haven't heard from any witnesses like that. perhaps other people have. but, again, from what we know at this point, i think that the pause in the shots quite frankly corroborate a lot of the evidence or depixz at least at this point. >> i totally disagree. i totally disagree. the pause in the shooting is going to be spun by both sides. people form their opinions originally based on their own life perception. the people who feel this is an unjustified shooting are going to say that pause gave the officer time to premeditate the shooting. the people who feel it's a justify shooting are going to say he shot him and stopped, and since he was still coming, he shot some more. the sharm not that people form their opinions immediately. the harm is that people formed

fixed opinions. and then when fact likes this come in, they're not willing to change their mind. they're willing to form it into their story or say oh, it's not credible, it's not believable. that's the problem. >> and it's a reasonable officer too. it's a reasonable person standard. so it comes from the officer's testimony. and the officer unfortunately is the only person who is alive between the two of them. >> but there are reports out there as well. >> we're going to have other forensics and we're going to have other witnesses. we just have to wait for all that to come in. i'm not a big believer that the police should be letting out all their evidence. when they do, this is why police say an investigation is pending. we can't comment. because when they let out the evidence they have, people come out of the woodworks with stories that fit into that evidence. >> stand by. hold that thought. we'll get into it. i'm going to let you finish. but there are, you know, there are reports that people are fitting their testimony to what they hear witnesses on television saying. we're going to talk about that. and also, if it is authentic,

how would the audio compare with others a scene of the accident case that we already know about? that's next. ike diet can negatively impact good bacteria? even if you're healthy and active. phillips digestive health support is a duo-probiotic that helps supplement good bacteria found in two parts of your digestive tract. i'm doubly impressed! phillips' digestive health. a daily probiotic.

how would the audio compare with

welcome back, everyone. we're talking about the alleged recording of michael brown's shooting. cnn cannot independently confirm whether or not the shots heard were from the incident. i'm back with my panel. sunny, you were raring to get in here. >> i was just going to say the suggestion somehow that the police shouldn't be providing public information to the media, to the public, and that that is something that is never done really flies in the face of what we see every day. the bottom line is we see every day that police officers, captains, chiefs of police, they hold press conferences and a tell you what they know about a potential case, what they know about a potential crime, what they know about a suspect. and let's not forget that in this case, although they have not released the police incident report, unredacted, they haven't really allowed this officer to

speak that. >> did find it appropriate to release video of this alleged strong arm robbery. they have found it appropriate to dribble out information about michael brown in this case. and so i think the suggestion that somehow that this is a case that is being run transparently and being run the same way that every other case is being run is just not correct. >> i didn't say it doesn't happen. i was saying i'm not a fan of it. i don't think it should happen. i think it's an ungoing criminal investigation and you taint it by having other witnesses to taint information that they otherwise wouldn't have. >> there is that, but guys, isn't there that there is no narrative? even andrew zimmerman, like her or not, she had a narrative, a theme when she took over. we don't have anybody putting forth what their theme. mcauliffe says he is going to the grand jury piecemeal. that's no way to present a grand jury. >> can we get back to the video?

we're getting a little far afield here. a lot of that has been debated. we're going to find out if whether the governor is saying he going to stay there let's get back to the audio here and to the authenticity. again, cnn has not verified it yet. but the fbi is taking it seriously. but one reason people say they believe it is because this guy is doing something personal with a friend, right. and he does not appear to be disturbed by gunshots at all. what do you? >> that was my thought when i first heard the sound recording, i thought this guy is so into this woman or man, i don't know who he is flirting with, that even gunshots do not derail -- even gunshots. >> woman, excuse me. >> even gunshots don't derail his flirting. that's a man on a mission here. >> or, alex, judge, that might be how dangerous this neighborhood is. maybe gunshot isn't that unusual to hear. >> let's listen in and then we'll talk. let's listen in again. >> you are pretty.

[ gunshots ] you're so fine. just going over some of your videos [ gunshots ] how can i forget. >> i mean, he never stops. he kept talking right through it. >> sure he did. but we don't know the circumstances. he could have head phones on. >> are you speaking from experience? >> when i first heard the audio, and of course i have listened to it several times, i thought the context of the chat made it more authentic. >> right. >> because who would want to release this kind of information? i mean, he is clearly in some sort of sexy chat on a video chat. he is talking about watching someone's videos. >> what is wrong with that, though? he is an adult. >> nothing. but it could be embarrassing. >> as long as it's legal to record conversations in that state. >> and it is. >> and we believe it is. >> it is. >> as listening as it, there is no problem. if it was illegal, it would raise all kinds of issues. most of the states that ban a recording a conversation like

that without both party's consent also ban it being used in court future any purpose whatsoever. >> i do have to say last night when we were trying to get this verified, to get it on the air, and speaking to him and to her, meaning his attorney, he did not want to be identified. and he did not want media attention. and when someone approaches us, and not wanting media attention, not want tock identified, that usually authenticate theirs story. if you're just looking for attention, you want to get your face out there. he didn't want any of that. >> sure. >> very good point. very good point. >> sunny? i'm surprised. sunny, you don't have anything to say? >> oh, i always have something to say, don lemon. >> 10:45 eastern time. sunny hostin. >> i always have something to say. >> write it down. >> i think certainly it does, again, inure to the notion i think it's probably an authentic recording. what we should also mention is

the fbi is certainly interested. we know the fbi has interviewed this man. they have -- they're investigating the recording. and they're the best in the business. the fbi agent as. and i believe they're in the best in the business. >> janet, when you hear the number of shots, 10, i thought i heard 11. but they said that was probably an echo that i was hearing in the recording. police are trained to shoot. why shoot to kill? why shoot to -- and usually to unload their gun. >> that's what they're taught to go. >> right. but my defense would be if i'm defending the officer, officer wilson, my defense would be first of all, he is not that experienced. i don't know how good a shot he is because they're bullets we can't find. maybe they have found them and we don't know it. my defense was he wasn't going to kill him. he was shooting in his arms shooting in way that would disable. >> i heard ben carson say something the other day and i student believe how wrong he was. one of the things we have to find out is police officers are taught to stop and taught to

kill. that's flat-out wrong. police officers are taught to shoot to stop 689 they shoot for center of mass. that's what they shoot for. you don't shoot for hands or feet or legs because those move. and that's how you kilby standers behind. you shoot for the center of mass. that's where the organ are and most likely to put something down. that's what all police officers are taught. the other thing you have to know is you're not taught to -- it's not like television. you know, everybody sees 007 go tap tap and the person goes down. that's not the way it is. in the situation where you're afraid for your life and you pull your gun to shoot, you're shooting. and a lot of times what people do when they pull the trigger, they push the barrel of the gun in this direction. and that's why possibly he was getting the right arm. >> but the conversation, whether or not the shooting, the use of deadly force was appropriate. >> it may have been completely inn appropriate. it may be unjustified. >> the witnesses i heard from, don, and maybe there are more, maybe there are others. but when you have someone that

is fleeing, perhaps there was an assault. if you have this fleeing felon, you can't just shoot to kill, right? you have to either be -- this person has to be a threat to you or a threat to others in the community. >> that is not true. that. >> is true. >> that is not true. no. >> the supreme court found that. >> i know the case you're referring to. and that is not true. if it is a fleeing felon from a violent felony, if you believe the story, because we don't have the officer's story, this may be a completely unjustified shooting. but if the officer's story is he fractured the orbit of his eye, coshoot him. >> that's not true. >> such an a intriguing conversation. but unfortunately, i have to end it here. thank you, guys that. >> is not true. >> we'll debate it another time. >> we'll be right back. if you want to make things that move, move better, just talk to one of our scientists. they'll show you a special glue we've developed that bonds metal to plastic.

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welcome back, everyone. we have more on that audio that may, and i emphasize may have captured the gunshots that ended michael brown's life. cnn cannot independently verify the aught a tis of the tape, but it definitely raises a whole heck of a lot of questions.

joining me ted rowlands live on the streets of ferguson. ted, just a week ago we would have seen hundreds of protesters. fairly quiet and peace tlfl tonight, i would imagine. >> yeah, don. the second night in a row it's been extremely quiet here there is literally a handful, maybe 15, 20 people just hanging out. but very peaceful. literally standing around talking in the same area where there were hundreds of people. so much different scene on the streets of ferguson. and the family really asked for that yesterday. today it's unclear if the -- because there was a planned march today. it was so bad. the rain came down so hard and it was so hot that i think maybe the weather really did turn people away. not a lot of folks showed up to that. and now there literally aren't many people out here at all. >> ted, i've got to ask you this. we had the video. well showed it here on cnn tonight last night exclusively. now other people are starting to get hold of the video. but i left ferguson today before

i had a chance to really gauge the reaction. what are people saying, if anything, about the new release of this audio, this possible audio of the shooting? >> i think it depends on what side you are on, if you will, don. people that believe in the eyewitness accounts, they believe this audio supports that there was a three 46 second delay there where there were two separate incidents where there were shots fired, a delay, and more shots fired. many of the eyewitnesses say that on the other side of the coin, people that support officer wilson say his side of the story which we've only gotten through a friend on the radio show, we don't really have that verified, they say it still works, even though there are a couple differences. if you hear that side of the story, there is supposedly a single gunshot inside the vehicle. and you don't hear that on the recording. now, obviously the recording could have started after that took place. and then there is no mention of

a delay of two separate, if you will, shootings during the time when we were led to believe that officer wilson said he was being approached. but that said, those people say that the recording also supports their side, if you will. it's funny that no matter where you stand on this, any bit of new evidence seems in people's a minds to just bolster that side. so it really hasn't been definitive one way or another. turkey, corroborate the side that you are on. all right. thank you very much, ted rowlands. we appreciate that. >> right. >> we'll be right back. did someone say burn? try alka seltzer reliefchews. they work just as fast and are proven to taste better than tums smoothies assorted fruit. mmm. amazing. yeah, i get that a lot. alka seltzer heartburn reliefchews. enjoy the relief. co: until you're sure you do.you need a hotel room bartender: thanks, captain obvious. co: which is why i put the hotels.com mobile app on my mobile phone.

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we have a tragic story out of arizona to report to you. a 9-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed her instructor at an outdoor shooting range on monday. the girl was learning to shoot uzi when the recoil sent the gun over her head and her instructor was shot. he died later at a medical center in las vegas. cell phone video released by authorities shows the moments before the fatal shots were fired. cnn affiliate klas reports a website of bullets and burgers at the shooting range where the accident happened says children between the ages of 8 and 17 can shoot if accompanied by a parent or a guardian. we're going have much more on

that next hour right here on "cnn tonight." this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. it's 11:00 p.m. on the east coast and 9:00 p.m. out west. i want to tell you what is going on here. it is a tape that could break the case wide open. so i want you to listen to this. again, closely. are these the gunshots that killed michael brown? captured in the background of a video chat. >> you are pretty. [ gunshots ] you're so fine. just going over some of your videos [ gunshots ] how can i forget. >> plus, is race the root of the problem in ferguson and in america? sure we have a black president. but what has really changed? do we have a white privilege problem? and a shocking story to tell you about that i just reported, a 9-year-old girl with an uzi accidentally kills her instructor at a shooting range. we're going get into all that tonight. we're going again with the audio that