of "360."" "cnn tonight" with don lemon is next. good evening. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. a confrontation with police in broad daylight. gunshots and a young african american man is dead. no, this is not ferguson. this is less than four miles away in st. louis where kajine powell was shot to death. authorities say powell was brandishing a knife. his mother is here tonight. she calls her son's death murder. also, the shocking ways isis is recruiting young people around the world, and what it will take to stop them. we're going to talk with a former jihadist who says isis uses social media to recruit kids living a gangster life. we're going to get into all of that tonight. but i want to begin with the death of kajean powell.

back on august 19th. all the more disturbing because the whole thing was caught on tape. his mother and germaine wooten, tuition for the powell family. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, don. >> you're welcome. >> karen, i want to start with you. you had to bury your son kajieme yesterday. i'm so sorry for your loss. how are you holding up? >> i'm holding up pretty well, thank you. >> i want to ask you what happened the day your son was killed. police say he threatened two officers with a steak knife after stealing from a convenience store. do you believe that? >> no, i do not. >> what do you believe? >> i believe a video footage that i have seen. and i didn't see a knife. i didn't see him wielding a knife. >> it appears, though, in the video he may be cupping something with his hands because his hands are in a cupping position. you don't believe you see

anything. >> no he doesn't have anything. >> mildred, when did you last see your grandson? >> it was about 11:30, a quarter to 12:00. when was, that tuesday, or monday. tuesday. >> tuesday. >> tuesday morning. yep. and he usually leave the house and he go to the library. >> so montgomery out of the ordinary, was routine? >> no. i was expecting him to come home around 3:00 or 4:00. and instead i got a knock at the door and the police was there. and they was trying to pronounce his name they asked me if i know a kajieme. i say i think you're talking about my grandson, and his name is kajieme. so they said can we come in? and i told them yes.

and they asked me -- they told me they was sorry to bring bad news. that's what it was. then they wanted to know who that was on the windowsill. i had a picture of my niece up there. she had on a police uniform. and i told them. and they asked me if i could go downtown with them to identify the body. and i told them yes, but give me a few minutes, because i had to change loathes. >> they asked because your niece is a police officer, correct? >> beg pardon? >> your niece is a police officer? that's why they were asking who that was, correct? >> yes. >> so you had to go down. i'm sure your heart sank. and that must have been one of the -- probably the most awful day of your life. one can only imagine. >> it was. >> karen, you know the st. louis police chief says that officers followed protocol, that your son

was moving towards the officers and telling them to shoot him. what do you say to that? >> i don't think that he caused -- he di did not cause a threat to those police officers. according to the police footage -- the footage that i've seen. he didn't pose a threat. he didn't even look like he was close enough for them to feel threatened. >> so i asked -- i spoke with your attorney before to -- because i don't want to be insensitive about showing the video or playing the video. and he said that you're okay with it. are you okay with us playing it? and then i can ask some questions? >> yes, sir. >> okay. we're going to play it, and then we'll talk to you. >> lay down his gun down. >> shoot! shoot me! [ bleep ] [ bleep ] [ bleep ] oh

[ bleep ]. they got their guns out. [ gunshots ] >> i -- that's the first time i've watched the video in its entirety. we obviously froze it so that you wouldn't see it actually happening. you have looked at the video, right? the unfrozen video? >> yes, i have. >> do you think that lethal force could have been afforded? >> definitely. >> why so? >> i'm sorry? >> why do you believe that? do you think he was close enough where they could have tased him or -- >> uh-huh. >> yes. i think they could have talked him down. >> go ahead, grandma. >> they didn't try to talk him down. they come out of the car with their guns. >> drawn. >> yeah. >> so let's talk about the 911 call, okay, referring to your son here. the first was a store clerk reporting the stolen items. and the second one was made by a

st. louis alderwoman. and i want to play that second call for you, and then we'll talk about it. here it is. >> he is in front of my barbershop. and he just seemed very upset. i don't know what he is getting ready to do. but i don't know if the person in the store called, but i'm calling because i am going to lock the door. i don't want this guy to come in here. but he is upset. he's got a knife in his hand. >> so she describes your son very upset. what was the mental state of your son? was he suffering from some mental illness or mental issues perhaps? >> no, sir. >> so why has it been said that in the community it was known that he had problems? mental problems? >> i don't know. >> go ahead, grandmother. what were you saying? >> i said who said that? >> it had been discussed, and even according to police and according to members of the community that he was known in the community for that. but if you say it's wrong --

>> i don't think so. i don't think anybody told him that. >> jermaine, this all happened in the wake of the michael brown shooting. unlike the ferguson police, the st. louis police, they were very quick to release information about this. do you think they have been transparent? >> no, they appear to be transparent on the day of the incident, don. but since that day, i've been unable to reach chief dobson by phone. i've called him a number of times. the latest time being today. he still has not returned my phone call. and on the day of this incident, he gave an erroneous account of what happened. we had the tape. everyone had seen the tape. he said that he described the incident as kajieme attacking the police officers with a gun up in the air. anyone who sees the tape knows kajieme hands remained at his waist side the entire time. >> you mean a knife? >> excuse me? >> you said a gun. you mean a knife? >> yeah, i do mean a knife. if he had a knife, after viewing

the tape, and i viewed this tape at least about 50 times, don, i don't see a knife. however, i do hear the police officers telling him to put a knife down. so even if he had a knife and it was cuffed and they could barely see this knife, i hardly believe these police officers could have felt threatened by kajieme. >> so lack of transparency, you believe. have they found a knife? have they told you anything about having a knife in evidence? >> they haven't told me anything about having a knife in evidence. since that time, don, however, i have requested the incident report, which would give me a bunch of facts that happened that particular day. i await that i anticipate having it over the next couple days. and i do want the family and the chief and all of us to sit down and perhaps talk and find out exactly what happened that day. and we can perhaps sit down with these officers and find out exactly what was going on in their minds and try to find out how they were trained, what post training they had. because it appears that these officers got out of their car

with just one thing on their mind. they were going to put this guy down. they could have -- they had many, many options. and per their training, what they should have done, one officer, which would have been the closer officer who was driving the car, he should have gotten out of the car, not with his gun out. he should have gotten out and attempted to peek with kajieme. >> as you said, try to talk him down. >> absolutely. >> you are planning legal action, correct? >> absolutely, don. >> karen and mildred, can i ask you, what do you want to happen here? and what do you want people to know about your son, your grandson? >> i want them to know that my son was a very -- he loved people. he loved life. he loved children. he especially loved family. he wouldn't harm anyone. he especially love family. >> what do you want from this? >> i need -- we need to get the

police officers to follow their protocol if they have any. and this injustice has to stop. >> karen powell, mildred powell, thank you. i appreciate you joining us. it took a lot of strength for you to do this. if you ever need anything, let us know. >> thanks, don. >> and thank you very much as well, jermaine wooten, the attorney for the family. i want to bring in judge greg mathis to react to all of this now. he is the host of tv's judge mathis. you just heard from the family there. what is your reaction? >> well, let me share my sorrow with the family, first of all. but my reaction, don, is much of what we've heard. and that is that the police could have used less -- they could have restrained themselves more so than the restraint of

the victim. in this case the victim was some 16 to 20 feet away from them when they began shooting. we were told something different early on until the videotape came out. i think there needs to be a thorough investigation first in terms of what the police chief said, what the police officers told their chief, and what we saw on videotape. and secondly, i think there could have been less force used. we hear that it is difficult to come before. it's difficult to fight off a northwestern is coming before you with a knife. and you should not use a taser. well, you had two guns. one could have been a taser and the other gun. if the police chief says that tasers don't always work, and that's kind of ludicrous. what about guns? guns don't always work. i'm really concerned about the use of excessive force in this case and so many others. >> you were in ferguson. when you see young unarmed black men like michael brown killed by law enforcement, what is the root cause? why does this happen?

>> yeah. well, i was able to sit on the white house task force for my brother's keeper to help men of color and their dealings with the institutions of criminal justice and otherwise. and what we discovered is some of the root causes involved the stereotypes of black men that project them as angry, violent and drug dealing or drug using. and those type of stereotypes of course kind of give a free hand to those who might otherwise want to do harm or be more callous in doing harm. and the root cause i believe, and we studied as to the problems that black men endure with the stereotypes, some of which are derived from the poverty they experience in the inner cities, the failed education system, the saturation of guns and drugs, et cetera. >> here is what i want to talk to you about.

because when you look at the -- we're talking about the michael brown shooting, and we don't know. the investigation has to play out. when you look at the kajieme powell story, this is clearly not a young man who is surrendering to police. he is going towards the police, and they're asking him to stand down. so you can -- you can argue about the use of force, but it wasn't he was just sitting there and someone shot him. >> absolutely. that's why i say excessive use of force and were there any alternatives to shooting him some nine to ten times i'm told. i think it was based on my viewing. he did not have the knife over his head, as we were told originally. and so the dishonesty that we've already heard from the police officer, from the police department is doing nothing but reinforcing some of the distrust that the police endure already from the citizens there in st. louis and ferguson. >> we're talking about excessive force. and if you listen to this alleged audio, this audio of

allegedly of the gunshots fired that killed michael brown, it appears to be a number of gunshots. there have been people who say well, this shows that there was excessive force. and others say well, it shows that perhaps michael brown was in a confrontation with the officer and he was protecting himself. let's listen to it and then we'll talk about it. >> you are pretty. [ gunshots ] you're so fine. just going over some of your videos [ gunshots ] how can i forget? >> what do you make of this, judge, if you were in a courtroom and you heard this? >> well, what i do hear is a pause within the shooting. three to five seconds. it sounds as if there was no gunshots, and then you heard the gunshots resume. well, what was happening between the three to five seconds? was that the point in which they felt that they should have put their guns down, or was there a reason? what was the reason for the pause? and so that would be one of the

particular parts of the evidence that i would be interested in knowing. >> and if it is authenticated and the fbi is working on that now, then this will definitely be a very big factor in the investigation and in the court case. if there is one. thank you very much. i appreciate it, judge. thank you. >> thank you. when we come right back, a mother pleads with isis to release her journalist son. can she save him? nick kristof has reported from war zones around the world. i'm going to ask him about the dangers journalists face. also, a former jihadist talks about how isis is recruiting young westerners. where the reward was that what if tnew car smelledit card and the freedom of the open road? a card that gave you that "i'm 16 and just got my first car" feeling.

presenting the buypower card from capital one. redeem earnings toward part or even all of a new chevrolet, buick, gmc or cadillac - with no limits. so every time you use it, you're not just shopping for goods. you're shopping for something great. learn more at buypowercard.com at university of phoenix, this is a woman hesitating on a life-changing decision. we know going back to school is a big decision. that's why we offer students new to college a risk-free period. so you can commit to your education with confidence. get started at riskfreephoenix.com without a prescription for frequent heartburn. get complete protection. because the best moments in life

aren't experienced from the sidelines. now there's nothing holding you back. this is nexium level protection™. the #1 prescribed acid-blocking brand now without a prescription for frequent heartburn. get complete protection. nexium level protection™, now available at walgreens. get complete protection. ♪ [music] defiance is in our bones. defiance never grows old.

citracal maximum. easily absorbed calcium plus d. beauty is bone deep.

welcome back, everyone. the gruesome murder of james foally is a reminder of how dangerous a journalism profession can be, especially for reporters covering stories in war zones. joined now by nicholas kristof, a columnist for "the new york times." you just heard from the family. let's talk about the shootings of police officers. we just heard from the family of the young man shot and killed in st. louis, missouri. we're talking about kajieme powell. the city is still reeling from the michael brown case. sparked a national conversation. you just wrote a column about it. it is titled "is everyone a little bit racist?" what are you talking about? >> we don't know exactly what happened in the kajieme or the michael brown case. i don't want to presume to judge in that case. but what we do know is there is a broad national problem with

race, and especially affecting young black men. and we see this -- in the last 20 years, there has been an extraordinary amount of research using brain research and psychology research. and it underscores this. and for example, i took a video game that is prepared by a university of colorado professor where you are in the role of a police officer. you are confronted by a bunch of men, white men and black men, variously carrying guns or carrying wallets or cell phones. and you have the shoot those with the guns. and obviously not shoot. and, you know, i believe as much as anybody in racial equality. i am more quick to shoot the black man than the white man. and across the country that is very true, including blacks, including african americans. >> but the thing is when you don't -- i think it's a great question you ask. is everyone a little bit racist, because if you don't examine that and say oh, i'm not racist, then chances are you night be a

little bit racist. >> i think we have the misperception that the basic problem here is a certain number of a kind of twisted racists. whether police officers or whomever else. and the problem is so much broader than that. doctors are less likely to prescribe pain medication to african americans with broken legs than whites with broken legs. principals are more than three times as likely to suspend black kids as white kids. >> for the same issues? >> yeah. >> transgressions. >> that's right. and at the end of the day, i think these are probably well meaning decent people who believe in racial equality, yet at some subconscious level, they are making decisions that perpetuate inequality and are particularly harmful to young black men. >> it's in "the new york times" tomorrow. you should read the article. it's fascinating. switching gears. you just saw journalist theo curtis back in the usa. >> when i was imprisoned, i had

no idea that so much effort was being expended on my behalf. and now having found out, i am overwhelmed with emotion. i'm also overwhelmed by one other thing, and that is that total strange verse been coming up to me and saying hey, we're just glad you're home. welcome home. glad you're back. glad you're safe. great to see you. >> you have traveled the globe, extensively covering conflicts. you have been shot at, right? held at gunpoint. you've been detained. what is your immediate reaction to the release? >> thank god peter is back safely. and i hope that others can come home as well. but, boy, one of the biggest changes in my career as a journalist is that it is a lot more dangerous and deadly to be reporting in these danger zones today because it used to be the reporters were kind of killed by accident. these days, we're targeted. we're targeted idealogically by groups who hate westerners, and we're targeted because we have become a business model, that jihadi groups can kidnap a foreigner and monetize that

person. >> i read something, and i don't know if it's a note from a producer or something that you wrote. you said you were with someone 679 i don't know if it was a mind or they will kill me and hold on to you. >> one time i was in darfur in a village that was about to be massacred. i was trying desperately to interview every last person i could before the war lords showed up. and my interpreter finally said look, we've got to get out of here because if they catch us, you know, they can ransom you. you're worth it to them. they're just going to kill me. and he was absolutely right. and i left immediately. >> they will kill journalist news instead of -- >> yeah, but usually they will try to ransom us. we have a financial value to them. >> but before people didn't go after journalists, right? it was sort of a hands off? >> exactly. journalists were respected. humanitarians were respected. >> we're seeing a string of freelance journalists being captured. we have peter theo curtis, james

foley and john sotloff. his mother appealed to the isis militants today. here she circumstances since steven's capture, i've learned a lot about islam. i've learned that islam teaches that no individual should be held responsible for the sins of others. steven has no control over the actions of the u.s. government. he is an innocent journalist. i've always learned that you, the caliph can grant amnesty. i ask you to please release my child. >> the family had kept quiet. it seems like they're changing their strategy now. do you think her plea will have any effect? >> i don't know. but i think it's worth trying. i admire mrs. sotloff for trying that i think she is shrewd to address it, particularly to baghdadi, to call him the caliph, to kind of flatter him in that respect. and also to cite the koran and

the prophet muhammad providing amnesty. i think it was a shrewd move. and it hope it works. >> i think that people who are in your profession, and many people who are in intelligence have been paying attention to isis, right? most people know about al qaeda. but there are people now that have been talking about isis and al qaeda and a possible connection. what do you actually know about that? >> one of the remarkable things is how little we know about isis. al qaeda people have been following for many, many years. and we really have a deep understanding of it, the intelligence community knows much more. neither the intel community nor foreign intel agency nor journalists really have much of a feel for isis. we don't have a sense of how many people are a in it. we don't have a good sense of how many foreigners are in it, although there seems to be a frightening number, both of -- from muslim countries and from western countries. we don't know to what extent they would like to target the united states, or european countries. but what is shocking is how

capable they have been militarily, how quickly they managed to rise up, seize territory, control territory. gain income. and in syria, you talk to commanders who -- people who went into originally to fight president assad. and they just wanted to fight syria. but and maybe they started with a moderate commander. but because isis had weapons, had money, could pay them a stipend, could pay their family a type pend, so they were more likely to grow a beard, and then to move on to isis or other jihadi groups. >> it's always fascinating to have you. they put it in such plainspoken terms. not everyone does that. that's a gift. thank you. >> thank you. i appreciate it. >> please come back. nicholas kristof. so why are some young men vulnerable to recruitment by groups such as isis? up next, we'll have answers from

a former jihadist. of the openin, because we're trying to make the school bell. corner booth beats corner office any day. we make the most out of our time... and our money. the chevrolet malibu. j.d. power's highest ranked midsize car in initial quality. the car for the richest guys on earth. say "hi" rudy. [ barks ] [ chuckles ] i'd do anything to keep this guy happy and healthy. that's why i'm so excited about these new milk-bone brushing chews. whoa, i'm not the only one. it's a brilliant new way to take care of his teeth. clinically proven as effective as brushing. ok, here you go. have you ever seen a dog brush his own teeth? the twist and nub design cleans all the way down to the gum line, even reaching the back teeth. they taste like a treat, but they clean like a toothbrush. nothing says you care like a milk-bone brushing chew. [ barks ]

but they have to use special care in keeping the denture clean. dentures are very different to real teeth. they're about 10 times softer and may have surface pores where bacteria can multiply. polident is designed to clean dentures daily. its unique micro-clean formula kills 99.99% of odor causing bacteria and helps dissolve stains, cleaning in a better way than brushing with toothpaste. that's why i recommend using polident. [ male announcer ] polident. cleaner, fresher, brighter every day.

[ male announcer ] polident. with a new00 volkswagen turbo.rd card why are we so obsessed with turbo? because we like giving you power, but we also like giving you fuel efficiency. like the sporty jetta. and the turbocharged passat tdi® clean diesel. okay... and the iconic beetle... and the powerful tiguan. okay you can't forget the cc. guys, this is going to take a while. get a $1,000 reward card on new 2014 turbo models or lease a 2014 jetta se for $169 a month after $1,000 bonus. ends soon! how do terror groups such as

isis go about recruiting young men, especially from western countries? a former jihadist. mia bloom, the professor of security studies at the university of massachusetts lowell and the author of bombshells. paul cruickshanks is a cnn terrorism analyst and a former counterterrorism expert in the international terrorism operations section. good to have all of you. and i'm looking forward to this information. i'm really looking forward to hearing your story. you were a former jihadist. how were you recruited? >> i went through a period of self-radicalization. there is no single pathway. everyone has a different profile. my particular one led me from not isolated, very integrated experience in high school. but by the age of 19, i became very religious. and i had a chance encounter with the taliban in 1995 in

pakistan. that sent me down the road of jihadi thinking until the 9/11 attacks which made me reconsider my views. >> how did you have a chance encounter with the taliban? >> so it's -- i was with a local group that proselytizes to muslims and tells them in order to bring about change in the world you have to be more ritually observant. with this group, i was just going, walking around a local area, and came upon about seven or eight of them sitting in an area with their ak-47s. so i went over to them, altruistic. i didn't know who they were. and i said the same thing. look, this is how you bring about change. and they said to me well, thanks, but the way to bring about change is with this. and he held aloft his ak-47. so that kind of made me think hmm. and then when i got back in 1995, they had taken over the country. and i took that as a validation of their world view. >> i'm just trying to figure out

what makes you prone to do that. because that could happen to a number of people, and they would run the other way, and they would say are you kidding me? you must be crazy. what made you and what makes other people prone to becoming radicalized? >> if i kind of self-analyze myself, i think for me, it was a sense of adventure. and that's what sucked me into it. and the sense of adventure sucks other people into it as well. but it depends on what your background. if you come from an abusive home, if you have a criminal background, that predisposes you to kind of go down that path. for me, i also had an identity conflict that was going on at the time. what kind of a muslim am i supposed to be, if i'm western, does that mean i'm not muslim. so these kinds of conflicts within the self emerge. and then once somebody offers you a radical ideology that kind of gives you a second chance, that's the kind of stuff that

really play into this. >> we're going to dig deeper into that in just a little bit. mia, i see you shaking your head in agreement. why so? >> i think what mubin is saying really resonates, because one of the things that people describe, whether they're talking about nasr musana, who left cardiff to go fight with isis, and he has recently been killed, or he was featured in a video, and me might be killed, as well as others, i think it's the desire to be needed and to be important and to be part of something greater than themselves. and so i think that that's one of the key variables. if we're going to link -- we don't have a profile. we don't have the same pathway. but i think this desire to be part of something larger may be the common denominator when we're looking at why westerners are going to isis and going to try and create this new caliphate.

>> what is the lure for westerners? >> fundamentally, these people feel it's their religious duty to go and join the fight in syria. that's obviously a distorted version of the religion. but isis are also putting out this idyllic projection of a jihadist community, heroic fighters in the video has been greeted by children after conquering vast tracts of territory in syria and iraq. and that is pretty irresistible for extremists who may be in cities in europe or even in the united states as a vision, don. >> richard, do you think that these young men really understand what isis is about, not to mention the koran or islam? do they really understand? >> well, i think what you're seeing here is the individuals that are going over there from the united states are individuals who have been lured over there by the slick, you know, propaganda that isis is putting out. they're looking for the action. they're looking for excitement. and in fact some of them they have uncovered even had books

that was islam for dummies. so do they fully understand what it's really about, or are they really looking for glamour and the excitement and the part of being something much larger than what they were before. maybe they were a loner. maybe they were isolated. and like was mentioned earlier, if is there a common denominator in the factor, the common denominator is something looking for a path to prove themselves, making themselves larger than what they once were. >> mia, i want to read this to you quickly if i can get a react. so much reaction coming via social media. it's from douglas mccain, he just did this past june. and he says i am with the brothers now. that was in june 14th. now we are all waiting for you guys in shah allah. we will see you soon that was june 14th. and then he retweeted it takes a warrior to understand a warrior. pray for isis. is there almost a romanticism in become aguiar your in a brotherhood?

>> there is a romanticism. and i think mubin can probably explain it to you better. but what has been very effective is the fact that a lot of these western kids, either they grew up in a not particularly religious household or they're converts. they're very susceptible to some of the manipulations of koranic verses. but i think the social media is very powerful. even mccain was posting as early as april. and his father still didn't know that he was in isis. and they're posting on twitter now to 15-year-old boys in britain, saying not too young to die. and they're posting things like beheadings. they're posting pictures of children holding up severed heads. the idea is that the social media is the way in which these individuals are going to achieve their fame and their notoriety. but at the same time, it's a way that they're almost able to compete with one another and show what a great experience they're having. they even show houses that

they're taking over. they show look at my house now. >> i'm glad that you bring that up. you bring up the social media aspect, because i wonder if it's giving the recruits a sense that they belong. and that's to mubin. many of these recruits are young men in their 20s, 30s. it appears that that is a more susceptible time for them to be recruited. and social media is helping out. >> yes. if i can kind of borrow from another individual who put this, tnt. testosterone, narrative, and theater. and you're dealing with kids, some of them who -- they don't sleep. they're online all the time. so if you think of it as a business model, location, location, location, it's the perfect place to pick these guys up. >> all right. everyone, stay with me. when we come right back, a crucial question. how do we track american jihadists? [ woman ] the cadillac summer collection is here. ♪

♪ [ male announcer ] during the cadillac summer's best event, lease this 2014 ats for around $299 a month. hurry in -- this exceptional offer ends soon. ♪ man: [ laughs ] those look like baby steps now. but they were some pretty good moves. and the best move of all? having the right partner at my side. it's so much better that way. [ male announcer ] have the right partner at your side. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. go long.

insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. this is bill. his doubleheader day at the park starts with back pain... and a choice. take 4 advil in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. peanuts! peanuts! crowd cheers!

welcome back. who is isis targeting as recruits? and can we stop young americans from becoming radicalized? back with me now is mubin

sheikh, and paul showborrow. it turns out we do know who some of them are. >> certainly we know who some of them are. and the key for us, for the intelligence community is determining who these individuals are before they leave. because our greatest concern for them so go overseas, learn the trade craft and the skill set and bring it back to the united states. for us to identify them here through good community policing efforts is what we must do working with the arab communities and identifying these individuals, placing them on a watch list, and basically it comes down to terrorism 101. if an individual is flying overseas and paying cash for it, there is obviously a reason of concern. now people traveling to afghanistan and pakistan, a little easier for us to track. traveling to syria, a little bit more difficult. they can fly into europe, and then from there go to turkey and

go through the porous borders that are currently there right now. the key for us is identifying the individuals who have been radicalized here in the united states prior to them leaving. and then once they leave, track them, work with the foreign governments to follow their movements and track their movements overseas. >> so paul, cnn's atika shubert interviewed two jihadists via skype after the execution of jim foley. listen. >> i hope god gives me the chance to do such a thing as brother did with james foley, whether it be on somebody like james foley or a soldier of bashar or a soldier of america. my hands are ready to do this blessed act. circumstances this kind of brutality, paul, actually helping to recruit more jihadists? >> simple answer, yes. this kind of thing energizes these extreme radicals around the world. also, in the west on -- that's the unfortunate reality here, that they feel that isis is

fighting back against the so-called crusaders. so this really does help them with recruitment amoncks this very hard-line demographic. >> mubin, when you recruited others, what did you look for? is there something in someone else that you looked for when you were recruiting? >> yes, of course. we would look for those who were not so knowledgeable in the religion. so of course, when we came and rattled off verses and a hadith from the prophet, they looked on us as wow, these guys are so knowledgeable. and we exploited that. other things we would look for is did this person come from a broken home background? that would mean that of course not hanging around with their parents or not at home as often. they're kind of out there for us to save. and of course the precriminal background. if you're nor likely the f you have experience, robbing people, beating people up, very easy.

we could recruit you to be muscle in our group. >> what happened then? how did you get out of -- how did you change your life? >> for me personally, the 9/11 attacks really made me rethink my allegiance to this mentality and this ideology. i still wasn't quite out of it until i decided to go to syria. i actually lived in syria for two years and studied arabic and islamic studies. and it was there that i spent dedicated time with an islamic scholar who went through and itemized every verse that i had misapplied and misinterpreted and corrected my interpretation. >> mia, i wonder how people like mubin can help out. because i think he would be a good person for counterterrorism folks to listen to, to interview. am i wrong in that? >> no. i think -- i personally think mubin is amazing. and i think that he does a great service, because when he is

talking about his experiences, that's going to resonate to somebody who might be on the fence considering a life joining a jihadi group or going to syria. and he is able to show, you know, chapter and verse, what was distorted, what is meant by chapter 9, verse 5. when they say they're trying to kill everybody, no they don't want to kill christians and jews, what it really means. i think when it comes from him, it has more credibility than if i'm talk about it. >> i should ask richard that richard, you're counterterrorism. do you actually use former jihadis in your work? >> certainly. some of the best information we get is human intelligence. you can have the best signal intelligence and wiretaps in the world, but the best intelligence comes from humans in interviewing actually former and current jihadists. >> okay. we appreciate. thank you for joining us. mubin, mia, richard, and also

paul cruickshank. appreciate it. when we come right back, texas police pull over an innocent woman with four kids in the car, handcuffing her and terrifying the children before they realize their mistake. that story is next. [rob] so we've had a tempur-pedic for awhile, but now that we have the adjustable base, it's even better. [evie] i go up...heeeeyyy... [announcer] discover how tempur-pedic can move you. and now through september 7th,save up to $500 on a tempur-pedic mattress and adjustable base.

uh, hi. i'm here to drop off my password? . i'm sorry, i'm just here to what's the password. uh,synergy? datafication! gamification! university of phoenix has had alumni at every fortune 100 company... ...so we can help open the door to your future. go to phoenix.edu to get started today. ugh. heartburn. did someone say burn? try alka seltzer reliefchews. they work just as fast and are proven to taste better than tums smoothies assorted fruit. mmm. amazing. yeah, i get that a lot. alka seltzer heartburn reliefchews. enjoy the relief.

texas police are apologizing tonight for a shocking incident that left a mother and four young children terrified. police mistakenly pulled her over at gunpoint. the woman's 6-year-old son seen on this dash cam video getting out of the car with his hands up. police say they were looking for a beige or tan-colored toyota with four black males inside. so how do they end up stopping a woman in a maxima? david checked with our affiliate wfaa has this story. >> driver, let me see your hands! everybody, see their hands out the window. >> reporter: this is the moment that shook tamitra barber's beliefs, that bad things do not happen to good people. her car loaded up with small children, her hands above her head, then shackled in cuffs. moments later her 6-year-old son

ryan comes out too with his hands in the air. >> it makes me angry all over again. >> reporter: how did this happen? well, it started with this 911 call. and a very clear clear description of a vehicle speed do you think the highway, the driver possibly waving a gun out the window. >> it is going to be a beige or tan colored toyota, occupied by four black males. >> i drive a nissan maxima that is burgundy red. >> reporter: no match. but after the suspect car sped far down the road, the 911 caller was now far back, and thought the suspect was exiting the highway. and that's the very exit where police spotted kametra barber's car. >> the complainant that called in said that vehicle took that exit. >> put your hands behind your head. >> yes, sir. >> come on back. >> what is wrong? >> my kids! they're 6 and 8 and 10, 9, what are we doing? >> hold on a second, okay?

>> what is going on? oh my god, you're terrifying my children. >> we got a complaint a vehicle matching your description and your license plate with a gun out the window. >> reporter: in less than a minute, the officers knew they had the wrong car. you can hear them de-escalate. >> do they look young to you? >> they do to me. >> gun down, gun down. come on back here, son. come on back here. you're all right. >> reporter: within moments, the officers are trying to calm the children's nerves. >> i'm scared. >> it's okay. >> no, no one is going to jail. >> hey, stop cry, it's okay. it's okay. >> i'm scared. >> everything is fine now. >> were they treated properly? was this a proper stop that they needed to be subjected to that kind of -- >> for a call that a weapon was involved, yes. >> reporter: barber understands the officers were making quick decisions that night. nonetheless, she is still deeply

troubled. >> i need you to make sure that you have all the facts because it doesn't -- you can't just say okay, i'm sorry, and then i'm over it. i can't. i mean, every time i listen to or hear or think about it, it bothers you. it's not -- you know, i can't just say okay, i'm fine. it's okay. it's not a big deal. it is. >> especially when you're 6 years old. >> we'll be right back.

well, these days a woman's place is in the house, and in the senate. go with me here. but that doesn't mean what you think it means, and it doesn't mean that things are always easy. senator kristen gillibrand says she has experienced sexism from colleagues. one came up to her and i'm quoting here, good thing that you're work out because we wouldn't want to get porky. and a senator commenting on her weight loss after having a baby squeezed her stomach and said don't lose too much weight now. i like my girls chubby. we'll have more on that story in our next hour. it's 11:00 p.m. out east. i'm don lemon.

welcome back to "cnn tonight." it doesn't get any easier to watch. the video of a 9-year-old girl accidentally shooting and killing her instructor at a gun range. but the in america, where kit be entirely legal for a child to shoot an uzi, are there any common sense gun rules that we can agree on? also, what price is this country willing to pay to stop isis? can we risk being drawn deeper into iraq and syria? plus, having a say. having to say you're sorry. zara apologizing for a shirt for toddlers that looks an awful lot like a holocaust uniform. and texas police apologizing for pulling over an innocent women and handcuffing her in front of her children. but are there times when sorry is just isn't enough? we're going to get into all of that. but i want to begin with the disturbing story of that 9-year-old girl who accidentally killed her shooting