>> that's it for us. back here tomorrow night at 8:00 and 9:00 eastern with president obama's address to the nation. cnn tonight starts now. good evening. this is cnn tonight. ichl tonight everyone is talking about the aftermath of that caught on tape moment from tmz sports when rain rice knocks out his fiancee with a single punch. >> everybody has an opinion. you may not agree with some of what you hear tonight. all part of a conversation we need to have about domestic violence and what to do about it. >> you will hear from actress, abuse survivor, robin givens. she says former husband boxer mike tyson assaulted her. she joins us exclusively tonight to talk about why women stay and how they can leave. also, the man who says if michael vick can make a come back so can ray rice.

stephen a. smith is here. and former washington redskins running back, clinton cortiss, friend of ray rice and tell us about the person he knew. >> my goodness, a very busy show. plus what did the nfl know? when did they know it? roger goodell said the league was never given the chance to see the video. he is not ruling out a comeback for ray rice. we will get into all of that this evening. let's begin with the headlines in the ray rice story. breaking news tonight owner of the baltimore ravens, has sent a lengthy letter to fans which reads, in part, here it is, the decision to let ray rice go was unanimous. seeing that video changed everything. we should have seen it earlier. we should have pursued our own investigation more vigorously. we didn't. we were wrong. we also have learned a great deal and will continue to strive to be an organization and team you and baltimore will be proud of. i am sorry i let you down. and telling nora o'donnell that the league wasn't given the

opportunity to see the video. here it is. >> to be clear -- did you know that a second tape existed? >> well, we had not seen any videotape of what occurred in the elevator. we assumed that there was a video. we asked for video. we asked for anything that was pertinent. but we were never granted that opportunity. meanwhile, ray rice's nice, janay, on instagram with a message defending her husband. this is our life. what don't y'all get. if your intentions were to hurt us, embarrass us, make us feel alone, take all happiness away, you've succeeded on so many levels. just know we will continue to grow and show the world what real love is. ravensnation we love you. let's bring in stephen a. smith. thank you very much. you heard what roger goodell said there. what do you make of his statement this evening? >> well, i will tell you in the

sports commune tigity it is dift to believe the nfl, multimillion dollar establishment, best security, couldn't find their way to get their hand on a tape to see what transpired inside the hotel ka see kncasino. you have to take roger goodell at his word. commissioner of the nfl. all of his decisions aren't pristine. they're all not perfect. nevertheless when you look at him you don't see a man, there is no history of him being a liar on anything of that nature. you do have to take him at his word. it is kind of shocking, considering that we are talking about the national football league. the new york jets. new york giants. philadelphia eagles. right there by the turnpike. atlantic city is close by. you got to believe you got some connections in atlantic city where you could have gotten your hand on the video. if he says he didn't. >> ray rice's attorney had the video. and if the nfl has relationships with homeland security, with all sorts of government agencies. it is surprising given the level of their influence that they

would not have seen this tape? some are saying willful ignorance? >> a legitimate argument can be made about that. if you dropped the ball. you did not see the video. chances are if you are the nfl you dent see the video it's because you didn't want to see it. there are plenty of in stances where you can look at the nfl, nba, major league baseball, if you are a multibillion dollar establish, if you have clout, cache, which they certainly do, you can get your hands on the individually to see what happened. some body is buying that. >> talk about the owner of the baltimore ravens. an open letter talking about initially what they did. how they heard about the incident from ray rice. his explanation was that after he and janay consumed a great deal of alcohol. they had an argument and that they struck each other. the letter goes on to lay out a long, you know, the time loon of the ray rice. and then talks about the disciplinary action. then it conclude. because of his positive contributions on and off the field over the last six years, ray had earned every benefit of

doubt from our organization. we took everything we knew and decided to support ray rice until we could not anymore. now his teammates are speaking out. being put in awkward position. what do you make of the things? >> the teammates are devastated. no question. a guy from new rochelle, starred at rutgers. impeccable reputation. a pillar in the community, philanthropic, contributed to causes, seen as a model citizen. there was nothing like this in his history to point to. when the owner says that we wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt there was nothing in his past. he is right about that. >> okay. about the tape. harvey levin of tmz. let a let's listen. >> the realer to is why the heck didn't the nfl commissioner seek to get -- he is a very aggressive guy. and anybody who knows anything about him knows when he conducts

an investigation. he micromanages it. he will make phone calls. do all sorts of things to make sure punishment is meted out, an investigation is aggressive. one of the players wrote today. former player. sage rosenfeld said, roger goodell made $44 million last year to make difficult decisions. this was an easy one. should he go? >> no. i don't believe so. roger goodell made a mistake. dropped the ball. the incident in february. wasn't until july you handed down the decision. clearly two game suspension. he cam up short on that. he acknowledged it. implemented a domestic violence approximately see. calling for a six-game banishment for first time offender and lifetime ban for a second time offender. obviously, open to appeal after one year. so that policy wasn't implemented in the nfl until this incident took place. roger goodell is not perfect. roger goodell has made mistakes. clearly made a huge mistake in this particular situation. but the nfl as it bout business.

the number one sport in the united states. and the fact of the matter is as the the commissioner of this league, albeit not perfect, there is no question that he is not the individual that put his hand on janay palmer. that was ray rice. he should not lose his job for this. >> remember the tweet the nfl put out. that janay took responsibility for what she did. insinuating there was shared blame. the ravens sent that out. >> yeah. >> that she sort of shared the blame. you made controversial statements. you own what you say. do you think, do you think it was, that they're sort of blaming the victim by putting that out? >> i got that impression before the video came out. once the video came out there is no question that nobody is going to cup oome out and say she bro this on herself. you can talk to the tweets, what have you. you can surmise that's what they were insinuating. but after everybody saw this video yesterday. i don't think the nfl, or anybody associated with this in any way, anybody that has two eyes and saw this, would look to her and point the finger of

blame in her direction in any capacity. >> can we talk about comebacks? you believe he can come back. not this season. but he can come back? >> let me modify that position. he can come back, if this incident is an impediment. for those who may not watch football. may not know football in this modern day era. ray rice wasn't that great last season. averaged three yard a carry. last half of the season. less than three yard a carry. not very impressive. he has a bigger problem. bah not only does he have this incident to deal with. even if he could come back, and was 100% healthy there are questions as to how pro dock tiff he will be as a -- productive as he will be as a running back. as it pertains to the incident this doesn't help. keeps you out of the game for a year. running back position, start counting the days on you, 29, 30 years of age. he will be 28 when heap is perceived as being eligible. a problem in and of itself. more importantly than that. i am saying, that we have got a league, you are talking about a guy, leonard little, 1998, that

killed somebody after getting behind the wheel of a car. talking about a guy, dante stallworth. did the same. he got back in the league. michael vick. convicted. spent 18 months in the penitentiary, electrocuting, maiming dogs. >> need to get a handle on all of it. >> -- on awful it. there have been incidences where people have died because of the actions of a player. and they were allowed, those players were allowed back into the league. i have to believe if the appropriate level of contrition was shown by ray rice they're going to, he goes and gets the help he needs. the family continues to stand together. based on his history of never having an incident until this one. if ray rice can still play the game of football. i think ultimately, roger goodell will sit and allow him back into the league. which roger goodell alluded to. >> i have been wanting to get you on since this all came about. >> sure. >> what did you, what did you

learn through this experience? what did you learn about word and about -- >> clarity. clarity. as it pertains to domestic violence for myself. i didn't have anything to learn. i was raised by five women. i'm 46 years of age. eight nieces. four older sisters. the most wonderful mother in the world. i have never put my hands on a woman in my life. matter of fact when i put my hand on men is because i saw them putting their hand on a woman. i have nothing to learn in regard to that. the level of sensitivity that people need to show. i have all way had that. what i learned is sitting in this chair on national television, with the opportunity to disseminate a message to the masses on a regular basis with my show on espn, and first take, beyond. all things espn, you have of a license sitting in this chair to make sure you speak clearly and cogently and articulate appropriately. what i got in trouble for was that i misspoke. you understand. i uttered the word provoke. people ran away with that. they thought i was saying that a

woman brings that upon themselves. that's not what i was trying to say. so in the end what i have learned, slow down. take a deep breath. make sure that people understand clearly what you are trying to say, and in the event that you nail to do so, you got to man up and accept accountability with everything that you do. in this particular situation. i had to do that. let's not confuse the two. i misspoke. i never put my hand on a woman. so i don't look at myself as having to go through training and sense sieve t and sensitivity classes. i have always had that sensitivity. >> i don't think people thought you had an issue with domestic violence. always a learn sxg peing experi. >> fascinating conversation. let's build on this. clinton portis, a former redskin, and he and ray rice were rival on the field and friendly off it. clinton thank you for being here. >> no problem. thank you for having me. >> is it fair to categorize your

relationship with ray rice as friendly. i would look to call it friendly. before you say friendly. let's make it clear at no point am i condoning ray rice or any other man to putting his hands on a woman. >> yes, yes, of course. but the reason i wanted to clarify that, because maybe you can help us understand what we see in that video. we have heard from lots of people. ray rice was a good guy. what we see in the video is so deplorable. not just the punch, where he swings at her and connects and knocks her out. but then what happens afterwards. where, he -- he doesn't comfort her. he doesn't go for help. he drags her body out of the elevator. like a sack of potatoes. what do you explain on this video? >> i wouldn't try to explain it. i haven't met that ray rice. i couldn't possibly explain it. i don't know the man i saw in

the elevator. the ray rice i know, a fun loving guy. a guy dedicated to the community. the guy dedicated to the dmv. a guy you can find in new jersey. in his hometown. so, the ray rice that i know is a totally different guy from what i have seen on, on, that elevator. do you believe the nfl when they say they tried, tried to get that video. they asked the prosecutors. they asked the police. they asked the casino that you see there. and they couldn't get their hand on the individually to ever watch it? >> it's hard to believe that. you know. if they never have seen the video. we saw the aftermath of the video months ago. so you already knew there was a video from the elevator. with that being said -- the nfl has a lot of power and can get their hand on whatever they need to get their hands on. coming into the draft, throughout the league. the nfl investigates you. extensively to find out everything you possibly have

done from middle school, high school, through college, and everybody you associate yourself with as we have seen brought up in the desean jackson case. if you can find desean jackson is friends with gang members. how could you not go to a casino and get elevator evidence. >> you make such a good. you make a great point about the vetting. they're good at vetting. that's their job. so how do you explain -- why they wouldn't have seen this video until today. it's hard to explain. you think of the nfl. think of the nfl. when you look at the shield and protection of the nfl and everybody that is held accountable in the nfl. all of the players, for, you look at fines. you look at everything in the players, are held accountable for. you want the nfl to be accountable for their actions as well. so, when you say, how did the baltimore ravens who invested millions in ray rice not see the video hour, did the nfl, who's

taking a big -- hit and blame for -- for not punishing ray rice only giving ray rice two games in july. in the video surfaces two months later. you have all of a sudden changed your domestic violence policy behind this. so it is hard that you don't go out and get the evidence that -- that's really going to clear your name up. and out of the way early. >> clinton, as you know, ray rice has been suspended indefinitely. by the nfl. was that the right punishment. >> i don't think ray rice should get the death penalty. i just sat and listened to stephen a, i had wrote down, wrote down those same exact names. when you think of leonard little. you think of dante stall worth. michael vick. think of plaxico burress. this is not a common trend from ray rice.

to come back and take advantage of their second chance. and ray rice, completes the necessary requirements, i think he should be let back in the nfl. but again, at 28, everyone feels like running, running back position is diminishing. it is going to be hard to find the team that wants to pay ray rice just because of his age. let alone, coming in with, with a domestic violence charge. >> right. right. clinton portis, great to get your perspective. thank you for joining us. >> no problem. thank you for having me. >> makes some really good points. some of the same points that stephen a. made about the age and what happens. >> absolutely. stick around. up next, an exclusive interview with robin givens. as you know she survived domestic abuse and now helps other families get past violence. also, janay rice calls her situation a nightmare. she know it referring to the abuse. she is talking about the media. you will hear one expert say -- that we actually have to talk about it. plus, families in financial

peril. susie orman and advice for any body taking out a student loan. you have to hear this. get 4 lines for just a hundred bucks a month. with unlimited talk, text and now up to ten gigabytes of 4g lte data. no overages no contracts we'll even buy you out of yours. so make the switch today. hey there, i just got my bill, and i see that it includes my fico® credit score. yup, you get it free each month to help you avoid surprises with your credit. good. i hate surprises. surprise! at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card and see your fico® credit score.

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welcome back. a staggering number -- in a

survey, conducted in 2010, 32% of women are physically assaulted by a partner during their lifetime. we're joined now by actress robin givens a victim of domestic abuse at the hand of her ex-husband boxer mike tyson. an activist for survivors of domestic abuse and joins us exclusively tonight. r robin, great to see you. thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me. >> you have walked in janay rice's shoes, what is your reaction to the tape and aftermath today? >> well, it is startling, isn't it? it is deeply upsetting when you see it. appalling if you will. i, i do think it's -- it's wonderful that so many people have seemed to stand up and -- and also be upset and appalled by what they have seen. >> yes, strength in number. you say you were in an abusive

relationship with your ex-husband, boxer, mike tyson. let me play for the viewers an interview you gave to barbara walters back in 19 #88 where yo touched on the abuse. >> he shakes. he bushepushes. he swings. sometimes i think he is trying to scare me. there were times when i thought i could handle it. you know? and just recently i have become afraid. i mean, very, very match of frayed. >> robin, what do you think when you hear yourself from back then? >> well, quite honestly, it's hard to even hear it. when i hear you say i say i was in an abusive relationship. i have had my ex-husband say to an author that the best punch he ever threw was against me. i have had him sit, he sat in an interview with oprah winfrey and talked about knocking me around.

so, this is something that -- quite honestly when i see this tape, it, it really brings up some difficult memories for me. it is not only my word, it is really the experience that lives quite deep in you that, that is hard to get rid of. >> of course. of course. which is why it is so important for everyone to hear from you tonight. because you were married during that interview with barbara walters. why hadn't you left him? >> well, i think the-- the -- to wrap your mind around what somebody is, is feeling, is, is, is difficult. i know that when i have gone out and spoke tine win to women and women say thank you for coming to speak to me. i would say thank you. part of my understanding what i was feeling what was going on for me, i did when i listened to their stories. their story was my story.

my story was their story. you really feel like you want to help. you, you really feel look you have done something wrong. you really feel look you can control what is happening. and one day you realize you cannot control this. but this is something that happens. quite often. i think for us to see this visual is, i don't want to say the is important. but you and i are having this conversation. and america gets to have this conversation. and in that respect it has become very important to us all. >> i do want to talk about that. because janay rice today put out a statement on her instagram. she basically talked about how she feels traumatized. she said, let me read tight you -- to make us relive a moment in our lives that we regret every day is a horrible thing. to take something away from the man i love that he has worked his ass off for all of his life just to gain ratings is horrific. this is our life! basically she is talking to the media there.

she, she feels traumatized not by the abuse that we saw, but by the media and, and, is it fair that we are all talking about her life? does that outweigh the fact that she is having to relive this experience over again? >> i won't sit here and ftry to speak for her. it's hard enough to speak for myself and what she is feeling. i find it hard to believe that any woman that has been knocked out by a man, similar thing happened to me. i was awakened by a doorman, carrying me out of an apartment over his shoulder. of course you are traumatized. is it -- is it traumatic to, to watch it play out with everybody watching? of course. is it difficult? yes. do you wonder how you don't know whether to protect the person you love or stand up? i think it is all very difficult. i can't speak for her. i have spoken with a lot of women. i have been in the situation. and i think you don't know up -- from down. i mean, i am sitting here, with

you right now, 20-something years later and it becomes like yesterday. it's difficult to process. i think probably what you are hearing from myself, her, a lot of women this happened to, the difficulty they have sort of sorting out their feelings. >> robin, mill yions of women w go through this. and men who are victims of abuse, of a lesser degree. what is your message to them tonight? >> first of all, first and foremost. it know it your fault. there is nothing you can say. there is no dress too short. nothing you could have said differently. it is never your fault. there is always somebody you can go to, domestic violence hot line, i worked with, ywca, a supporter of women and their rights, domestic violence. i have to say that one of the thing that i think, e thi think people by nature are very, very good. i think as the media is playing this out, i think part of,

everybody is so shocked to actually see this, to see a woman, who is small in stature, there is nothing you can really do to protect yourself. i think that's what's so difficult for the media, or the world to wrap their minds around. i think one of the things i think is so wonderful. i have always believed this, as i discuss this issue with different people. it is when men begin to stand up and say "this is unacceptable." this is absolutely wrong. we will never accept this. it moves the conversation along. moves us in the right direction >> we are frying trying to do t tonight. we appreciate your personal story and your sharing it with us. robin givens, thank you for joining us. >> thank you, thank you for having me. >> former and current players are starting to stand up and voice their opinions. >> absolutely. >> the question -- did the nfl know that the elevator video existed. showing ray rice punching janay and knocking her out.

some are calling for commissioner roger goodell to resign. we will get into that when we come right back. ♪ [music] defiance is in our bones. defiance never grows old. citracal maximum. easily absorbed calcium plus d. beauty is bone deep. [ male announcer ] this man has an accomplished research and analytical group at his disposal. ♪ but even more impressive is how he puts it to work for his clients. ♪ morning. morning. thanks for meeting so early. oh, it's not a big deal at all. come on in.

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commissioner roger goodell blasted for their handling of the ray rice case. the key questions, what did they know, when did they know it. a former nfl player who is now an assistant professor at emory university. and a commentator, legal analyst, and sports attorney with gordon & reece. good to see all of you. roger goodell broke his silence, speaking with cbs news. let's take a listen. >> we had not seen any videotape of what occurred in the elevator. we assumed there was a video. we asked for video. but we were never granted that opportunity. >> the question becomes, did the nfl drop the ball? or was the nfl willfully ignorant? about what was on this tape?

we didn't know what was on the tape. we have been openly honest. from two weeks ago, we didn't get this right. that's my responsibility. i am accountable for that. >> now, knowing you, you have a strong opinion. what is your reaction? can roger goodell survive this or should he survive this? >> he shouldn't survive it. he lied to america when he said "he dent know whidn't know what tape." he knew exactly what was on the tape. he knew ray rice punched janay. he knew she was knocked unconscious. they saw it in the tape. it was stipulated in the record, doven don. if he wanted to see it he would have pushed for the tape. he didn't want to see it. he wanted to get back to football. based on the mishandling of this, as far as i'm concerned the nfl has also abused janay rice. he need to go, don. >> david? >> no. but i have to say full disclosure. roger is a friend of mine. we worked together for years in the league office. he admitted two weeks ago they

got it wrong. we all know from seeing the tape. in the elevator they got it wrong. it was a mistake to know that there was evidence out there, and -- give out discipline without having seen all of the evidence. it wasn't a thorough investigation. he has admitted that. absolutely not. he does not have to lose his job. >> here's what the casino lawyer says. the lawyer says, ray rice's own attorney had the tape. i don't understand how they didn't have it. asked his attorney. here's what the casino said. cooperated fully with the investigation giving the tape to the laatlantic city police. and ray rice's own attorneys. so, how can he not see the tape? all he had to do was ask. it's negligence not to ask. dropped the ball. no way you can defend it. at the same time, saying that doesn't necessarily mean, or, it doesn't necessarily follow that he should be fired. i just don't think we can make

that leap. they made a mistake. absolutely. you cannot defend it. do you want to get in on this before i move on. >> i think it is interesting. mentioned earlier, the resources the nfl uses. evaluating player whether or not they want to draft them in the league. there is something said about their affiliation with potential gang members, or, what have you. it is interesting that the, the tape would not have -- been, been, would not have been, had access to it earlier on. you know one of the things i am also paying attention to, how we are losing janay in the conversation. about domestic violence. and the system that allows for, for a woman, black woman in particular to be abused the way she is a buse eis abused and hae and act on a loop. there was one particular news -- station that, said that -- you know maybe next time she should take the stairs. that's not discussed. i think there is something

really disgusting how we avoid talking about this idea of domestic violence. >> you bring up a very good point. that is the focus of the next segment after this break. i will stick to this segment. we are using the tape selectively. not using it as wallpaper video. if we are talking about it specifically, we will show it. it's good to get your insight as a former player. i want to know, david, as some one who represents people in professional sports. nba, the nfl. do the incidents happen or similar incidents -- in the nfl, or we just don't know about them? >> no. that's why discipline was severe and appropriately severe. ray rice doesn't deserve to wear the nfl uniform at this time. if he did thee would disgrace current players, former players, future players. >> should he be allowed to come back. there is a point at which -- he should demonstrate sufficient

remor remorse. and demonstrate conduct between now and then, that would indicate he should have the privilege of playing. to the point about janay. when ray rice isn't playing -- >> david. we will talk about janay at length in our next segment. before we go to break. should he be allowed to come back? >> i actually agree that, after a certain period of time, that he should be allowed to petition t if he has gone through counseling and if janay is agreeable, then yes, if there are certain thing that are on the table they should allow him to appeal this. >> all right. stick around, everyone. janay rice's angry statement on instagram. we will read it. she calls this whole thing a nightmare for her family. and pointing the finger of blame not at her husband.

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janay rice is sticking by her husband, blaming the media for the firestorm. we are back. guys, want to read to you the instagram message that she put

out this morning talking about how this has become a nightmare for her. she says, to make us relive a moment in our lives that we regret every day is a horrible thing. to take something away from the man i love that he has worked his ass off for all his life just to gain ratings is horrific. this is our life! mel, let me start with you. are we inadvertently traumatizing her by making her relive this just because we believe that it an important topping to tatop ing topic to talk about? >> yes. we absolutely are. she has been failed by so many people. first her husband causing the abuse. second the nfl for so mishandling this start to finish. not suspending him immediately. interviewing herren front of him. failed by the ravens when they forced her to go to a press conference where she apologizes for her role in this. it goes on and on and on.

and for goodell to be backed into a corner by tmz and only then come out with the bazooka aimed at ray rice. he fails her again. i mean, i just -- >> you are the person who said it is important that we watch this video and show it to our daughters a s and show it to ou sons and talk about it. >> absolutely. allison. i have been getting all day long. based on the peace i wrote on cnn. people talking about janay and choices she made to stay with him. there is so much victim blaming going on. i don't think anybody understand for a second that the two people that are responsible for the traumatizing of janay brown are her husband ray rice, and the nfl who colossally screwed up the way that they handled this. and by only doing the punishment now because they're forced to, because of what tmz did, they are retraumatizing her.

does ray rice deserve the punishment. does janay rice deserve better? you believe she does >> give me your thoughts if this was a colossal screw up by the nfl and if she is caught in the cross fire of all this? >> i sympathize for her. i refuse to judge her. whatever she feels, i feel support for her. this is a very difficult situation. i am not sure the media is able to capture the nuance. but the more, the discipline on ray, we end up punishing janay again. hive can if he can't make a living. he can't support her. >> doesn't he have a massive contract that will survive this. doesn't he have a multimillion dollar contract. does that go away with the sus pension? >> he was waived by the ravens. he does not have a contract. well, he, you know, first of all. the only money he has is money that he earned. if he got a signing bonus, there

is a chance that the last three years have been $9 million or $15 million would be forfeited. it's not clear at all that -- that, he, he, he has the money. but whatever he has or whatever he doesn't make is going to impact the woman who thought she was marrying a professional football player that was going to make $30 million. so, i am very concerned about the impact on her. >> your thoughts? >> yeah, a degree of politics that we, are not necessarily avoiding, we don't understand. within the context of their family, within this, african-american community. she is going to try to protect him. she know house she may appear to the community that they're from. at the same time try to maintain some sense of a family or support for him. it's very complex. it is not an easy set of equations to actually figure this out. you know, part of what we have to understand too is that again thinking in terms of media. talking about this. important to talk about domestic

violence. important to talk about, advocacy, and programs that can educate. i think the nfl would be the perfect now organization to promote it. the more we talk about her, don't talk domestic violence as a whole. we keep her as our focal point. >> all right, guys. thank you so much for the conversation. we'll be right back. t all these airline seats. lots of them, right? but when you try to get one by using your travel rewards card miles... those seats mysteriously vanish. why? all the flights you want are blacked out. or they hit you up for some outrageous number of miles. switch to the venture card from capital one. with venture, use your miles on any airline, any flight, any time. no blackout dates. and with every purchase you'll earn unlimited double miles. now we're getting somewhere. what's in your wallet? ♪ ♪ nowimagine the luxury... re.

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>> welcome back to cnn. what's in your wallet, the divide between the haves and have notes has never been greater. who better to talk to than suze roarm orman. >> joining us is suze orman. here. thank you for joining us. you are one of the people, we know your voice. you have a very recognizable voice? >> yes, i can have a hat, sunglasses. and be out. as soon as i start speaking. somebody goes, where is she. yeah, it is. >> so what is your voice say about where we are now with the recovery? it has been what five years? >> it's been, well, a long time to till yell you the truth. started in 2008.

almost, 2015. say here on cnn, many years ago. here's what i say, real estate has recovered. it is doing well. your 401(k), stock market, great at this point. everybody is feeling better. credit has loosened up. people are able to get loans again. so overall i think we are doing just fine. >> but, there is big talk about income inequality. everyone is doing just fine. but it depend where you are. how well you are doing, correct? >> i will be the first to till you the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, there is no middle-class anymore. but given that, we're at least coming, you know, around so forth. you know when people get into poverty today they're called stickies. i have said there is a highway into a poverty. not even a sidewalk out, today, don. if you look at the overall situation. we're doing better. >> this is back to school season. a lot of people are sending their kids for the first time to college. and i think that -- you believe that college students, we aren't

looking out for college students they're wracking up debt. parents are wracking up debt. what is going on? >> what is going on that for a student to go to a university -- to attend a college, they need money. parents don't hatch tve the mon give them any more. they have to borrow money. the kids they borrow money. and any student loan money is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. so the students aren't guided as to how much money they should borrow. how should they pay it back? when are they borrowing too much money. they don't know. >> you can do bankruptcy. i can't do it on my mortgage, on irs debt? >> you can do it on debt in the united states. >> not on student loans. >> why not? >> suze orman cannot tell you why have we targeted the future of america and make them pay higher interest rates on their student loans than you can buy a house for, a car for, why have

we made it so they can't discharge a student loan in bankruptcy. why are we protecting banks? the private loans, take the interest rate to anything. they still can't discharge it. >> want you to listen to what john oliver said sunday night? >> yeah, essentially student debt is like hpv. if you go off to college, you are almost certainly going to get it. and if you do, it will follow you for the rest of your life. because, legally, student debt is a special kind of debt. >> this idea that it is worth it to take out a student loan. you are going to get a good job. and pay for it. doesn't happen anymore. >> it happens if you take out the correct amount of a student loan. here is your guidelines. do not take out more of a student loan for all four years of college than you are going to earn your first year out of college. itch you are going to earn $40,000 the first year of college. do not take more than $40,000 student loan in totality. if you do you are going to have

a lot of trouble paying it back. >> i guess, i had no idea when i was in college. i thought i wanted to be a journalist. i said i want to be an attorney like my dad. all those things. many students don't know when they're starting out. how much money they're going to make. >> and then the question is, is it really necessary to go directly from high school into college? if you don't know what you want to be, all right, go to community college. all right, take two years off and make some money. and decide to what do you think you want to be and save that money then go to school. go to vocational college. you can do many things today but do not get yourself into a whole lot of student loan debt to become a baker. >> people believe, going to college is not necessarily r releva relevant. you don't need how to do it. >> i do think you need to go to college. one of the first questions do you have a college education. the key here though, don, a college will never make you.

you make the college. you don't have to go to a $100,000 school. go to one that is $20,000. still be as successful. >> former labor secretary, robert reich, on salon.com, put it up on the screen. i won't read all of it. essentially saying the same thing. skre overall you don't have to go to college these days. you believe differently. >> college isn't just about the degree and what you learn. college is about the people you meet. being away from your family. and becoming independent. in many circumstances, although many students need to live at home because they can't afford to live on campus. >> so along the way -- you learn things, right? i remember listening to, to -- to joan rivers. she would say with age comes wisdom, right? so what have you learned about money? because you, you have been talking about it for your entire career. >> yes. >> people learn things incrementally over the last year, what have you learned? >> i hatch learned thve learned

can never define who you are. that while money is important, who you are and how you feel about yourself is worth far more than all of the money could ever buy. >> thank you. always a pleasure. thank you very much. suze orman. thank you. >> we'll be right back. defiance is in our bones. defiance never grows old. citracal maximum. easily absorbed calcium plus d. beauty is bone deep.

>> read you janay rice's statement today. to make us relive a moment in our lives that we regret every day is a horrible thing. and they don't understand, or they, i should say they do understand why sunny doesn't leave. so you will hear from some of them next. you may be surprised to hear what they have to say. it's 11:00 p.m. this is "cnn tonight." >> the aftermath of the video continues to reverberate with women and men and through the nfl. the moment that ray rice hits his fiance with a knockout punch. lefg h leaving her unconscious on the floor of the elevator. >> hard to watch. imagine this happened to you. would you stay with the man that knocked you out. you may think you know the

answer. janay palmer is not the only one who stayed. we'll speak to an abuse wd md w. >> top sports writer who has seen the effects of domestic abuse up close an personal in his own childhood home. rick riley says the nfl blew this from the start. he is here to talk tonight. >> plus a story, the retired nypd commander who says before he joined the force he was a crack dealer who tried to murder a fellow dealer. he jones us exclusively tonight. >> incredible story. >> we begin with the ray rice story. not a football story. a story about the kind of domestic violence that sadly happens in families across this country every day. it is something that our next guest learned at a young age. joining us to talk about all this is reich reilly, a member of the national sports writers and sportscaster hall of fame. great to have you with us. >> thank you. >> you learned about domestic violence at a young age, why? >> my mom was hit.

i saw it. that's why i keep thinking of ray rice's daughter. what she has to be going through over and over:hearing about it from her friend and -- must be brutal. >> lacking inglooking at the v >> i hope she hasn't. >> you have looked at the video? does it bring it sfwhback? it brings it back. remind me in a way that it is a cool age. because now, i have been covering the story for 30 years. star athlete beats his wife. beats his girlfriend. remember lawrence girlfriend down the stairs at nebraska. if we had video, if we had cell phones, he would have been caught. what it tells the athlete you, are going to get caught. stop it. stop it you will get seen. looking at the video. why did the video make it real for the league. >> i don't know. i have covered so many boxing matches. you see some one laid out like that. i don't know if i have ever seen some one laid out that long you.

know exactly what it was. what did they expect to see. a person laid out for 90 second. you know what the punch was. what it was, was i think they thought they could get away with. they thought maybe no one would ever see that videotape. how do you decide two games. it should be two years if it is two games. >> in your personal experience what was your childhood life living in a household where there was violence. i remember my dad played golf. he had metal spikes. he would come home late at night. and you would hear the metal spikes. and you knew he was drunk. aened aand i would try to get between them so he couldn't get to her. and i remember him falling on top of me drunk trying to get to her. it's hard to go back and remember all that. >> the latest explanation from roger goodell.

is neshl initially got an ambiguous description from ray rice. do you believe that? >> i belief he got an ambiguous description. look, you see these nfl security guys all the time. they're tough. tmz. some little perks. even the -- the nfl. >> you think he saw it? >> i can't call him a liar. but i am shocked that the nfl didn't see that video. i am also amazed the ravens didn't see it. the city of the wire. they can get stuff. >> today the owner of the ravens issued a letter, this afternoon, to all of the stake holders explaining, trying to explain the release, the time lionel of things. i will read you an excerpt from this letter. they say, yesterday, morning, september 8th. all of us saw the video from inside the elevator. it is violent. horrifying. i came to the office called a meeting with dick cass, ozzie newsom, john harbaugh, and kevin

byrne. the meeting was short. the decision to let ray rice go was unanimous. seeing that video changed aefrgs. we shou -- everything. we should have seen it earlier. >> what did they expect to see? the lack of remorse and contrition. my wife was like look, using his foot to push her. like luggage the wheels have fallen off. that upset her if i can see that. >> one of the most shocking parts. after she is knocked out cold. he treats her like a bag of garbage. >> a 30-pound hefty bag. wouldn't you go down, if you had done something that stupid. wouldn't you go what have i done? are you okay? wake up. but he looked like a guy that had done it before. >> you know the fate of ray rice now. when it comes to the ravens. and from the nfl. what does that mean, right? i want to talk what sally jenkins says. about, roger goodell. she said that goodell is an duly

vain commissioner and a self serving one with an eye on the further prize. he has been. always been obviously that he obfuscates and evades on tough issues unless they are convenient for him that his convictions are highly selective and so his enforcement has never been more apparent. >> do you think he should go? >> don't think he is worth the $44 million they paid him this year. if they can prove he saw the video. of course he should go. i wonder if he should not suspend himself for a month. i think that is not quite fair. in the new orleans, bounty gate thing. he suspended guys for a year. including one of the most popular coaches in the league. he is selective. not sure how much suspending one of the best coaches in the leg for a year helped his cause. but he so blew it on this. if we find him culpable. he was lying. he saw this. then he is out. >> can i say one more. $34 million.

from current and former nfl players responding. one on twitter. sage rosenfeld. roger goodell made $44 million last year to make really difficult decisions. this one was an easy one. >> he is right. he is right. two game, a slap in the face all over the world. >> the ravens speck to the media tonight. some of the players and the coach held the media availability. let me play for you what the quarterback said about this. obviously paint a good picture who ray is -- doesn't obviously pant a good picture of who ray is as a person. i played with ray. this would have been the seventh year. some times good people make bad decision and put themselves in a bad light. and, really my heart goes out to him and his family. >> people do describe him as a good person who mad hey bad decision. do we know what he is really like given that video, that we have seen where he treats her as bag of garbage. >> his father was murdered 1. his stepfather was killed in a

car accident at 12. lived in a tough part of new york where he grew up. i don't know what he grew up. he is not all candy and roses. >> does he deserve a second chance? >> if he can prove in a year or two that he knows what he did. >> ray reilly. when we come back, president barack obama on the eve of a special speech to america. his plan to defeat isis. and from crack dealer to police officer. the man's 20 year career with the nypd after starting off in a life of crime. >> can't wait to hear that. >> and the questions people are asking tonight in the whack of the shocking ray rice video. why do women stay when men abuse them? and can abusers be cured?

>> president obama will deliver a televised primetime message to the nation less than 24 hours from now the here's what press secretary josh earnest said earlier about the plan to fight isis. >> what the president will talk about in the speech tomorrow, what the next phase entails. generally speaking, at the core of that next phase is an understanding and protecting the core national security interests of the united states. and protecting the american people. >> we know the president met with congressional leaders in the oval office this afternoon

to brief them on his strategy against isis. he says he does not need congressional authorization but wants a show of support from capitol hill. joining us to discuss all this, lieutenant general, cnn military analyst and former commanding general, u.s. army, europe and seventh army. and cnn terrorism analyst and co-author of agent storm, my life inside al qaeda and the cia which will be featured in a cnn documentary airing tuesday september 16th at 9:00 p.m. make sure you catch that. gentlemen, great to have you. gentlemen. the president will address the american public, as we know tomorrow night. we have a preview what he plans to stay when he fights isis when he talks to "meet the press." sunday. let me play that for you. >> what this is, similar to the kind of counterterrorism campaigns we have been engaging in consistently. over the last -- five, six,

seven years. the good news, because of american leadership we have -- i believe, a broad based coalition internationally and regionally. to be able to deal with the problem. >> general, what do we know about the broad based coalition internationally he says he put together? >> the secretary of state named countries that are going to john us in this effort. but that is just the starter. most of the one he's named were european countries. to have fought in iraq and partly in afghanistan, you saw the great majority of our partners in those two countries coming in from nato and nato partner nations. what i think the president now has to d do is expand that recruitment effort and get some of the gulf cooperation nations and the arab nations on board with this fight. and make it a totally comprehensive approach towards fighting this scourge which is isis. >> paul, do we have any idea if the arab states are on board?

>> i think many of the arab states are going to be on board. they see a real big threat from isis here. a country for example like saudi arabia. very, very worried about isis fighters coming become to saudi arabia. launching attacks there. the saudis will get involved. won't send airplanes, or war planes into syria. they are going to support this financially, lodgistically in other ways. >> you heard the president in the statement. we are going to continue the same counterterrorism campaign that we have been engaged in for the past, five, six, or seven years. is that enough to fight isis. i did hear the president say that. what he is going to say to the american people, this is going to be a much tougher campaign than we experienced in iraq and afghanistan. certainly do we have experience, fighting these kind of individuals and these kind of organizations.

but it is going to be -- so much tougher and much more complex. and allison what i would suggest is that i hope we hear a little nuanced approach by the president to prepare the american people that for those of them saying, hey, we will do this with air strikes or do it quickly. i think he has got to put that, put that message aside. and say this is going to bea very long fight to counter this organization. >> one of the things, paul, as you know, the u.s. has done effectively in the past, say five years, target al qaeda leadership. can we assume that the president is making plans to target the head of isis. >> well that is, the only way you will be able to destroy this group. take out their leadership, take out their command and control. the united states has not done that yet. they have not gone after the top leadership of isis in syria or iraq. one of the reasons is they don't have a good human intelligence network in those countries. they were able to develop that in places like afghanistan,

pakistan, and, yemen over the years. but they are yet to have that capability in place in syria. eyes and ears. on the ground. which makes it difficult for them to target these leaders. they're taking elaborate precautions. isis' leaders to avoid these kind of u.s. strikes. >> so, general. sound like that is a blind spot of ours. we don't know where the leaders are. how are we going to get around that? >> i am not sure that is true, allison the i will add to what paul said. it is a very good point. when i commanded the division task forcen northe ein northern. we separated by layers. higher echelons went after key leaders of the operational organization as well as their financiers and some of the imams giving blessings needed under sharia law. and they would go at tactical level against pipe swingers. you would have delineation of

responsibility in this fight. bringing a national co-lgs co-legislation together. you have to have intelligence. and isis, assad played his cards brilliantly. what do you mean? >> well, because he a credit, the choice for western powers. sort of us or isis. in order to go effectively after isis, you need boots on the ground. the obama administration. they want to build up some of the moderate opposition groups. these groups don't have any sort of capability. to go after isis right now. many of them are not particularly pro-american -- either. so quite problematic, working with them. some of them have ties to jihadist groups. so, really, if isis is the big thing you are worried about in western national security, terrorist plots in the united states. and europe. a lot of people, in europe, the

foreign approximately s foreign approximately see stateme -- foreign policy. if you want to destroy the threat. >> assad doesn't like isis. isis is a threat to syria. >> well he has used isis to garner favor for himself. that's been his terrorist threat as well. so he has almost built those up. i think paul would agree that has been an interesting die naminame i ic in -- dynamic in syria. there are power struggles in syria and also in iraq that we have to deal with just going after isis. that's what makes this whole thing complex. there are multiple groups that are challenging and have a jihadist mentality. it is just at different levels. >> jit could not be more come py kate -- complicated. thank you for trying to explain it to us. the president has his work cut out for houus.

>> stay with us for the president's live address to the nation tomorrow night. 9:00 p.m. eastern. here for analysis and reaction. part of a two hour special on cnn. at 10:00 p.m. eastern. >> right after the president a head the retired police officer who says he started out living a life of crime. he tells his incredible story when we come right back. when you compare the top speed of dsl from the phone company

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comcast business. built for business. >> all right, everyone sit down. you really want to talk about and listen what we are about to talk about. retired deputy inspector of the new york city department, dropped a bombshell. he claims that before he joined the department he was a crack cocaine dealer who once tried to murder a rival and friend with a man who shot and killed a police officer back in 1988. he is here exclusively to tell us his story in his own words. welcome. off awe thank you for having me. >> what did you think of the introduction? >> it was great. >> did you agree with it? you were, you were, i listened to your interviews. i read about you. you said you were a crack dealer

in queens. what was the live like? >> let me say this -- i grew up in queens during the late, mid 80s, early 90s. it was, it was rough. it was the crack era. i grew up around murderers, rapists. >> you said you saw the prettiest girls, the smartest guys, getting strung out on crack cocaine and really would do anything to get it. >> anything. it was the way of life back then. when i was 15, 16, 14. 17. it was a way of life. either you was in the streets or you was in your books. >> you added to that. you sold it? >> well, i was in the streets. it was rough. it was the way of life. >> you said that you had, you had a gun at, what, 14 years old, you were out there in the streets at 14? >> i was in the streets since i was 13 years old. 13 to 17.

i went into the military at 18 years old. off awe you said y >> you said you made a lot of money. a radio interview that i listened to. i want the viewers to hear it. >> i remember coming home one day with a big rope chain, 80 penny weight diamond medallion with my name in diamond and my mother crying saying, son, my son is going to get murdered. >> did you know what you were doing was wrong then? clearly you know now? >> absolutely. i knew it was wrong then. because my mom used to take us to church. so we knew it was wrong. but i just got caught up in the street. you got to understand. i was very impressionable. you've are talking about a 13, 14, 15 years old. you know, you got these older guys that's pulling these young kids in. that's what they're doing today. that's why i want to get my story out there to help some of these young kids. i feel like if they're in a box they didn't have to make the choice that i made. >> can we talk a little bit more about your story. i think you were saying, i think it happened when you were in

brooklyn. you were with this girl. and one of the guys came in, one of your rivals, and i think, he tried to shoot you or hit you. and you basically -- you were going to murder him. but the gun didn't go off. let's listen. talk about it. same pod cast. it's called -- let's listen. >> i put on a red jacket. nickel plated 25 in my pocket. i go down. 1980 murdoch. pull the pistol out in his chest and i pulled the trigger. i pulled the trigger right in his chest. pung, don't go off. pun g it don't go off. >> so had it gone off you would have been a murder. and people on there, that are laughing, there is criticism now that you may be, it sound like you are glorifying that lifestyle even as a retired police officer? >> well, let's be clear here. the show is a pod cast, hip pop radio show. if you are listening to the show

you will hear the vernacular i am using. i wouldn't use this talking to don lemon. i am saying things such as swag, my mans, this is how we talk in the minority community. so i was just dumbing down to the audience that i was dealing with. you know, i was using hip-hop slang when i was talking at that radio show. at that time. >> in that same pod cast you talk about a notorious cop killer, david mccleary, executed rookie police officer edward burn, you said, you call him my man, this was back in 1998. shot at point-blank range. guarding the house of a witness in '88 again. during the pod cast you talk about knowing him, you said my man, dave mcclary was one of the people that killed him. were you friend with him? >> let's be clear. i think, the first thing i want to say, i told the 1987, enlisted in the united states military. february 23rd, 26th.

david mcclary was, officer byrnes was murdered by david mcclary. >> in the military six months. >> had you been friend with him? >> i was friends with killers and drug dealers. in the neighborhood that's what i grew up around. >> what turned you around? before i get to that. as a police officer, if you were a cop killer. >> don, hold on. one of the things i must say, i need to look in this camera and say, so it is heartfelt. i want to apologize to the eddie byrnes family if i rehashed or reopen any wound and make them feel any way. i was having a conversation on the radio show talking to, to, to an interviewer who was asking me, a litany of questions. one of the questions was, what was one of the things you regret in your police career. i said one of the things that i had to hide for 20 years was knowing that i knew this cop killer and knowing that it would probably have affected me. >> eddie byrnes, a member of your family as the a police

officer. >> yes, he is. the public needs to know. many times i want to the eddie byrne memorial. i have shaken his mom's hand, dad, brother. i was there with his family at these memorials. let me separate myself from david mcclary. as young kids we played basketball together. he grew up to be a cop killer that has no bearing on me. >> let's move on. you talk about, also, that you -- that you didn't get into trouble. but being a drug dealer. at one point you almost did you. went in front of the judge. you told him you were going into the military. he said to you -- i will give you a second chance if you are going into the military. then you did. what turned things around? was it that decision to do that? >> what turned things around for me was my son was born december 14th 1987. and '86, actually. i turned my life around. i knew it was only two ways you were going to be a hero or street legend. i didn't want to be a street legend. a street legend if you make it

to 25. you are either going to be dead or in jail. i made that decision to try to separate myself from running around in the streets and doing things that i regret. i ask you, don, do you regret any things when you was young? when you are a teenager? >> a whole lot of things that i think many people regret. let's talk about the impeccable life i have lived for the past 21 years as a new york city police officer, rose to the top of the biggest police department in the world. i have accolades, i have commanded some of the most violent precincts in the city of new york. by the way, the first african-american police commander in the 67th precinct since inception of the nypd. >> tran iaw >> the transition could not have been easy? >> the transition was easy for me. all the things the scholars write about going into minority communities and politician, i am that. you can't tell me how to goat

into a minority community and police. so it was very simple for me to go into the minority communities and police. that's one reason why i was hand picked to run the most violent housing developments, what people call projects in northern brooklyn. i was hand picked to run the second most violent precinct. >> you cam froe from, you know . >> is it important to talk about, important for-up to talk about it, to meet people where they are at their level so that they can hear that? >> it is very important. look what is happening now. eric garner case, brown case in ferguson, you know, i have been on many tv shows speaking about those things. when you look at them, not the monday morning quarterback, the cops, but if i am there, that is a whole different scenario. my question to eric garner would have been, listen, we are looking you up. we could do this two different ways. if you could come with us. or we bring help. when help comes. it is no secret when you get a

lot of cops around, the testosterone build up. it goes hey ware. i know the cop didn't mean to kill him. when you don't use verbal judo or conflict resolution which cops are not using. >> you talk about your accolades. well deserved-up should talk about that. but i also want to give you the opportunity to address everything that has been out there. you know this has been a big story in new york city. right, people are calling you the drug dealing, former drug dealing cop. seen your picture on the cover of the paper and headlines. some people are saying you should never have been a police officer. >> you know what i say to those people? i should have never have a sec on chance in life? should i have been stuck in the street where most people want you to be where you are on the lower end of totem pole and not given a second chance. god gave me a second chance. let's talk about the 300 turkeys i give out on thanksgiving. every christmas for the last eight years i have my kids wait

until i get back from giving out toys to less privileged. let's talk about the $3,000 that i helped raise to give campus magnate high school to the football team. this is all without fanfare. but when you have irresponsible statements coming from the new york city police department. i have the number one villain in new york city now. really? let's talk about the, almost 100 cops that is in jail right now. >> i have got to run. people should not be judged entirely on their past. because the past is a weight. it's behind you. >> one last thing. let's be very clear, my story is about uplifting these young men and women that feel like they have no hope. >> if you will give me the opportunity. ask you one last question. hate to give you short shrift. you talk about how you gave your mother money. your mom died. do you think she would be proud of you now? >> my mom would be very proud of me. i am voted most unlikely to succeed. coming from where i came from.

so for me to go to, united states military, to be a police officer with 21 years. the only reason i left policing because i got hurt trying to subdue an individual which they're not talking about. i had two major back surgeries and lost a disk in my back, to lose the job i love so much. >> i have to run. thank you. >> thank you for having me. >> appreciate you coming on. up next, survivors of domestic abuse know what janay rice is going through. we'll hear their personal stories and what advice they have for her coming up. it's just that i'm worried about you know "hidden things..." ok, why's that? no hidden fees, from the bank where no branches equals great rates. big day? ah, the usual. moved some new cars. hauled a bunch of steel. kept the supermarket shelves stocked.

made sure everyone got their latest gadgets. what's up for the next shift? ah, nothing much. just keeping the lights on. (laugh) nice. doing the big things that move an economy. see you tomorrow, mac. see you tomorrow, sam. just another day at norfolk southern.

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>> as you know, ray rice's wife janay did not leave her husband after he knocked her unconscious. she has been public about her decision to stay with him and support him. she is not alone. thousand of victims of doumesti abuse victims stay with their abusers. we have more. >> reporter: the tape seen around the world. now imagine watching it and seeing yourselfen th ein that er with a familiar attacker, like

cece. >> it made me flashback. i know her pain. i can feel it. >> reporter: we are not using cece's last name or what shelter we are meeting in. she recently fled her abuser. she says she has been janay palmer. >> watching her go through the press conference. >> i do deeply regret the role i playeden the incident that night. >> she feels that is her fault. about to lose his job. she will be blamed. maybe if i had just been quiet. maybe if i just hadn't have spit on him. >> reporter: in her instagram statement, domestic abuse survivors also see self blame. this is our life. what don't you all get, she writes? know we will continue to grow and show the world what real love is. >> for you, what she is doing is perfectly logical? >> of course it is. yes. that's what we think. she thinks she can save him. but the main person that need to be saved is her. i know most women are going to stay. it is very, very hard to leave

for a lot of reasons. >> tanya young williams knows married to former nba star jayson williams who served time in connection with the shooting of the limo driver. she stuck with her husband through the trial. and knows what janay is going through. >> it is them against the world. that backbone. he need her. so she is loving her. telling her everything she need to hear so she is going nowhere. she genuinely believes that he loves her and she loves him. >> reporter: just last year, cici finally left her abuser after four years. and only because he pulled a gun on her and their toddler. >> i know what was next. it was death. it was death. buzz i have seen it in his eyes. we know the look. we know what it looks like. >> a breaking point she hopes janay palmer will not see and others realize the power of domestic violence isn't just in the physical abuse but in the mental and emotional chains.

>> joining us, to discuss all this, katie ray jones, president and ceo of national domestic violence hot line. judge judy harris kluger executive director of sanctuary, for families, advocate for survivors of domestic violence and sex trafficking and tony porter, a national violence prevention organization. you are all great experts. a pleasure to have all of you here to night to talk about this. judge, i want to start with you. you say that it typically takes a woman seven times of being abused to leave. why is that? >> oh, there are so many reasons. it can be economic ties to the abuser. it can be traumatic bonding. children you have in common. and really oftentimes you love the person, you just want the violence to stop. so it's typically what we see with survivors of domestic violence. not unusual it happened in this

case as well. >> you heard the victim in the story saying, you know, they are loving each other right now. he is telling her everything she need to hear. is there a certain point, is there a certain point katie where all of a sudden reality celtics in. what has to happen? what triggers that? >> that trigger is different for every woman living in a violent relationship. the trekkicky part. every woman's situation is very different. what that turning point or tipping point is for some one looks very different. it can be as the previous segment showed a woman who sees the death in his eyes. it can be a moment where, i worked with a woman in shelter one time. she said it was her son talking to her in a way that was her husband's word that made her go to shelter. there is the time when -- she wakes up and there is a gun

being held to her head. there is lots of thing that make that the turning point where someone says this is it. i'm definitely leaving this time for good. >> tony, you know, men who are abusers, often say that they will never do it again. they're full of resource. they cry. we just had robin givens on last hour, who said that mike tyson, the famous boxer, who she abused her. would cry on her shoulder. so contrite. and after that you think "of course they will never do it again." >> that happens. men, we call it various tactics men use. men have a host of tactics that they use. tactics that they use to maintain power and control over women along with various tactics that they use. when the violence is committed to keep herren the relationship. women love their husband. the men. they want the man back that they married. so it is very easy at times for men to play to that and get

forgiveness. >> i have to ask, what stuck out to me, during the interview. tony, and weigh in. and maybe she was thinking if i hadn't spat on him, right? everyone looks around saying, what would you do, just asking, what would you do if some one spits on you? how should you handle that? how should a man handle that if a woman spits on him. if a man spits on me. i will knock his block off. shouldn't do that with a woman. you shouldn't do that with a woman. should you walk away. what should you do? >> an interesting question. we had questions in the past. if a woman hits you, what should you do? and i look at blogs. and on social media. and i hear all of that. knock her out. going to hit her back. she deserves that. i like to ask the same folks making that statement, if it was your daughter that spilled on a man, if it was your daughter that hit a man, what would you want that man to do? would you still want him to n k

knock her out. want him to talk to you? want him to walk away. would you want him to find another way to deal with it than assaulting her. when you ask folks a question, pitch it that way. the tone changes. script flips on what they would like to see from that man. >> how about walking away, regardless of who spits on you. how about recognizing violence is not a reaction? >> that is a natural reaction, if a man, just being honest, if a man spits on me, i'm going to probably hit him back. we are going to end of in the fight. that's how it is. that would be great. in hindsight, monday morning quarterbacking, for some one of your own size and gender is to fight back? >> the natural response, don, you just gave an example that is natural, your own size, your own gender, which means that -- it's not that of an instinctive response. you're weighing some things out

as you are making the decision whether or not you are going to hit back may seem instinctive you are going through a filter and making decisions. in many cases, with men when we talk domestic violence, we live in society. we still tolerate domestic violence in communities on various levels. a man knows if he hits my wife that is a criminal charge. he is going to jail possibly. but if he hits his own wife, he may very well wind of in family court. we lessen the value. we row mopromote women as prope men in various ways. men think before they act. i've don't think we are that instinctive. if a cop spits on me am i going to punch a cop in the mouth. no, i wouldn't think about it. >> many women stay because they think their men will change. how realistic is that? can abusive men be cured? we'll get into that next.

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there are a host of programs out there, do the programs work?

can an abusive man learn to change. we are back with our guests. katie, do these programs like the one has ray rice has been sent to, this diversion program where he gets to go to classes instead of go to jail, do these work to change abusers? >> i believe it is possible for an abusive person to change. i wouldn't be doing this work if i didn't believe change was possible. what i would say, for the program to work, the abusive person has to take responsibility for their actions in their relationship and want to do the work and have a desire to change. that's the critical piece that makes the program successful or unsuccessful. >> kathy, is it -- like, with addiction, are you always in recovery once that happens? >> you know it depend -- >> fine, thank you. >> it really is about this person doing really deep work. i have facilitate ed battered intervention programs for quite some type.

you see different types of comments made in the programs where you can really tell some one is really committed to change and taking responsibility. it is an ongoing challenge because often times -- your's undoing many years of either witnessing violence, being exposed to violence, and changing the mental thinking of how they approach relationships and huh thow they act in relationships. >> i want to hear that, judge. i wonder when it is court ordered in this ray rice case what you think the effectiveness is? >> i start by saying that i taker to with the idea of curing or rehabilitation. this is not drug addiction or alcoholism. we had a study in new york that showed that these programs do not reduce recidivism in men who commit acts of domestic violence. these men know very well how to manage their anger. they don't go out and hit their neighbor. they don't hit their boss. they hit their wife or

girlfriend. and i think, you know, those programs -- maybe meeffective i terms of monitoring or punishment. the goal need to be that we change as society, recognize and instill in our children, violence is not acceptable under any circumstances. so i don't think that the programs are the answer. i don't think there is a cure. i think we have to change. >> tony, what do you think? >> yeah, i would love to follow up on that. i so agree with the judge. we are talking about the socialization of men. we are talking about how men are taught to act, behave, think. we are talking about acknowledging the fact that we still live in a male dominated society. we still follow many of t patriarchal ideas of time. while will ebb aomen are not thy of men, we adhere to the norms,

domestic violence is a choice a man is making. >> can i get a consensus from you guys? can a man change? can ray rice change and go on and have -- >> yes, yes. a man can change. a man can change. what is not changing is a pathology, excuse me, what is changing is his choices and decisions and how he chooses to act. not an illness. >> judge, go ahead. >> a pre grogram is not what chs a person. it may inform them. give them an idea of their actions. we have instilled a patriarchal society. until we change that. i was thinking to myself. why would any man, if they are spit on would their reaction to haul off or punch your wife or another woman. that means you feel entitled to do that. so that's what i would like to see come out of this incident. i've think that -- tape shows

that very graphically what happens behind closed doors, every day in this country. and in a way it is team to stop showing the tape. because i think it is hurtful to mrs. rice. we have all seen it. it has been seen all over the word. let's take lessons from it and move forward. >> yes, she said as much today in her instagram message. judge, katie jones, and thank you for all of your information. great to hear your perspective. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back.

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that's it for us >> that is it for us tonight. thanks for watching. >> please stay tuned for president obama's special address to the nation. so make sure you tune in for that. right now, live with cnni. >> eight fooing isis. president obama tells congressional leaders he has the authority to strike the sunni militants. >> going big. apple returns to the spotlight with asplashy debut of not one, but four new products including a watch. >> apple watch is the most personal device apple has ever created. >> and speaking out, the wife of the fired nfl player ray rice defends her husband and slams the media for ruining their lives.