forefor forget. thank you for watching. see you at 11:00 p.m. eastern. another edition of "360." cnn tonight starts now. good evening, everyone, this is cnn tonight. i'm alisyn, camerata. don lemon is on assignment. a shocker in the ray rice story. report that rice came clean to nfl commissioner roger goodell back in june. telling him he punched his then-fiancee in that casino elevator. this is a cording to espn which says it got the story from four sources. stow why did goodell tell cbs news that rice's original count was "ambiguous" is it time for a zero tolerance policy at the nfl? >> superstar athleten trouble for allegedly attacking his girlfriend. not talking about ray rice. talking about boxer flid mayweather. set to make upwards of $40

million this weekend despite previously convicted of domestic violence. why does he keep his career when ray rice does not? one of america's toughest attorneys has filed suit against mayweather. she joins us tonight. the clock is ticking to the first air strikes on isis inside er yea syria. will the president's plan work or will this turn into a middle east quagmire. all of that tonight. plus, tavis smilie's take on the ray rice scandal. the latest on the ray rice and roger goodell and awkward change of tune at the ravens' game tonight. cnn's miguel marques joins us with the update. what have we learned today, miguel? >> a lot of awkwardness today,ling ason. espn reporting that on june 16th meeting which rice, his wife, two reps from the union, players' union were there, ozzie newsom, gm of the ravens as well as the president of the ravens, and rice's lawyer and others, four of the individuals, telling

espn, that rice told roger goodell that, that that meeting that he punched or hit his wife in that elevator. a fifth source telling them that he slapped her. all of this in contradiction to what he told nora o'donnell from cbs news earlier in the week saying it was unclear what happened in that elevator. certainly the complaint that was out there from day one of all this indicates that he hit her and rendered her unconscious. all of that is out there. it does raise questions about what goodell was talking about. when he said it wasn't clear. the owner of the -- of the ravens, steve bischotti talked about this and put it in terms, we wanted to bleach thelieve th mutual fight. something happened. she fell over. hilt h hit her head on the railing. was knocked out. with regard to tonight's

ravens/steelers game. the pregame show supposed to have video production of rihanna, in the jay-z video. "run this town." remade it. sort of headline the cbs' new thursday "nightline"up for the nfl. they pulled that because, rihanna herself was a victim of domestic abuse from her ex chris brown. >> miguel, they didn't think of that until a few hours before the game? that's how tone deaf the nfl is. they didn't put two and two together. that rihanna, might be a -- horribly awkward moment. they planned this long ago. put a lot of money into the video. the famous hank williams song that played before monday night football. this was to be the ancillary to tip. what was amazing though is what was meant to be sort of a star-studded and sexy start to this thursday night, cbs game. ended up being a sort of news show with all broadcasters,

james brown, j.b., literally telling people that they had to start paying attention to domestic violence. almost like a preacher. take a listen to this. >> kid thconsider this accordin domestic violence experts. more than three women a day lose their lives at the hand of their partner. since the night of february 15 in atlantic city, more than 600 women have died. so this is yet another call to men to stand up and take responsibility for their thoughts, their word, their deeds. as deion says "to give help or get help." because our silence is deafening and deadly. >> almost like prduring the pre show. deion sanders who was cited with domestic violence, but there were no charges eventually filed. turns to the camera addresses that. saying i want everybody to know i never had anything to dupe with this. and goes on with the show.

pretty bizarre, interesting start to the season. >> sure sounds like it. thank you for the news. the ray and janay rice saga has become political. 16 female u.s. senators sent a letter to roger goodell, demanding the nfl institute a zero tolerance policy on domestic violence. is that realistic? joining us to discuss, is an attorney, womens right advocate, a staff writer for "the washington post," and a sports editor for "the nation" magazine. thank you for joining us. let me read a portion of the letter the 16 u.s. senators sent to the nfl today so you can get a flavor. they say we are deeply concerned that the nfl's new policy announced last month would allow a play r to commit a violent act against a woman and return after a short suspension. if you violently assault a woman you shouldn't get a second chance to play football in the nfl. long pastime for the nfl to ns

to the real zero tolerance policy and send a strong message the league will not tolerate violence against a woman by its players who are role models for children across america. let me start with you. is this a good idea? >> i think it is an excellent idea. the only way we are going to see real change in the nfl is having all aspects of the federal government. state government, private companies, nonprofit organizations, domestic violence, women's rights advocates. this entire country. bringing to bear pressure on the nfl to make some real changes. i am disturbed. when i look at how the nfl has the treated its domestic violence cases there seems to beep th be this sense to see they want to wait to see what the law does. like the case of the 49ers. for that particular player, ray mcdonald if charges will be filed. a case with the panthers. this guy, greg hardy has been c convicted waiting to see what happens with his appeal. the nfl doesn't have to follow what county prosecutors all over

the country do. it can set its own zero tolerance policy and holds its players accountable. it's time for them to do that. >> dave, how would it work? they would lose, be suspended or lose their job even before being adjudicated because a woman accused them of something? >> yeah, look, i spent my professional life as a sports writer, writing abe aing about against women in professional sports. i respectfully disagree about the idea of zero tolerance. if zero tolerance means the player will be removed from the nfl permanent leap. one strike and you are out. i tell you why i disagree. having spoken to domestic violence experts over the past week. one of the things that could potentially do is actually disin se stop women from coming forward. the typical nfl career is 3 1/2 years. 3 1/2 years to make money to give you bank for your entire life. the pressure and the

disincentivizing that it would put on a woman to economically dislocate her family and future. the nfl has to set up ways. the current system is ridiculous. i completely agree. set up avenues of confidentiality so women can come forward and ask for the help that they want with the self determination that they need. >> is that the answer? >> yes. david is on the right track when he says, that is a huge concern. you know. we sort of, tend to think of these situations of domestic violence as only the violence that occurs in these relationships, right. but these women, it's not like -- the situations in the relationships are horrible all the time. there is something that is keeping them there. >> of course, that's what we have learned over the past few days. that women have all sorts of

reasons for staying. some of them intimidation. i want to show you this is basically the file of since 2010, how many nfl players have been arrested for domestic violence. at least 20. so, areva, something has to happen. >> lot me respond quickly to what the other panelist said. itch you were to play the are gaume argument out, you would say we shouldn't have criminal punishment for domestic violence. so the fact that there is going to be consequences, isn't going to change. off awe right. right. >> prevent women from coming forward. >> that is a good argument. i want to challenge you on your point you. think people should lose their jobs before they're adjudicated just on accusation? >> there should be a full investigation and determination. and it doesn't have to be at the level of a criminal standard. think what happens in a criminal case. the standard is beyond reasonable doubt. an incredibly high standard.

and the work place we often fire people because of sexual harassment, racial discrimination, infractions because their rules set up in the company. doesn't mean the person commit aid cri committed a crime. but there are standards of company policy. all well are saying in the nfl get policies that make sense. if people break them have some consequences. >> dave, go ahead. >> i completely agree with that. the nfl needs a much better, much smarter policy. how to deal with violence against women. roger goodell is in trouble because he has been reading from the same playbook. when violence against women takes place you brush it under the rug and cover it up. time for women's voices to be heard. the thing you didn't want to do. got to go back to this. if anything disincentivizes women from coming forward has to be looked at with a side eye. what you didn't want is women staying in relationships because

they think they're going to destroy the family unit themselves. there need stew s to be a way t the help they want, needs to be confidential counseling. the current standard for counseling was ray and janay coming into his office and talking in front of him together. that is obscene by any standard how you deal with domestic violence. that's what needs to change. >> obviously, you all agree something needs to be done. thank you so much for coming in. with your perspectives on this. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. >> when we come back, breaking news. an ohio school shooter has escaped from prison. we'll hear from his lawyer. also, the superstar athlete who did time for domestic abuse, just keeps getting bigger and bigger pay checks. boxer floyd mayweather. what his story. gloria allred involved in a new lawsuit against him. she is hoor tonight. also this country is on the verge of air strikes against isis in syria. duptz the president's plan go far enough.

we'll talk to one opponent who says it goes too far. and tavis smiley on the ray rice story. ferguson, missouri and what dr. martin luther king would think of america today. get 4 lines for just a hundred bucks a month. with unlimited talk, text and now up to ten gigabytes of 4g lte data. no overages no contracts we'll even buy you out of yours. so make the switch today. hey, i heard you guys can help me with frog protection? sure, we help with fraud protection. if there are unauthorized purchases on your discover card, you're never held responsible. you are saying "frog protection"? fraud. fro-g. frau-d. i think we're on the same page. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you.

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we have breaking news. ohio school shooter t.j. lane escaped from prison. lane was sentenced to life for killing three fellow students at chardon high school in ohio in 2012. he escaped tonight along with two other prisoners. one of whom has already been captured. the search we are told is focused on a wooded area to the north of the allen correctional facility. the prison from which he escaped. people in the area are advised not to open their doors for strangers and to call police if they see anything suspicious. joining us now on the phone is ian friedman, t.j. lane's attorney for his trial. thank you for being on the phone with us. when is the last time you talked to t.j.? >> probablien ty efollowing the sentence. last thing i thought we would be talking about? >> you didn't think he was capable of this?

>> no, you never plan on someone escaping. certainly some one of that notoriety, you would think they would take precautions to prevent this. shocked fully when some one e escapes. t.j. lane. a huge case in ohio. everyone in ohio is shocked right now. >> looking act video of t.j. lane in the courtroom. there was just a sort of disturbing shot of him where he looked kind of amused. he was smiling and grinning a little bit. can you tell us more about his state of mind? >> yeah, no one is going to be able to know for certain what was in t.j.'s mind except t.j. himself. that was for everyone in the courtroom, the victims, the families, the prosecutors, everyone in that courtroom was just absolutely taken aback. there was no way to fully comprehend what happened in the courtroom that afternoon. >> did he explain why he killed three fellow students? >> no here, never did. he said it was something that he

has been clear, been deter menned he is going to take this with him. only he is going to know. we never went to trial. it was never something that was stated openly in court. >> so tonight police are warning people in this area to stay inside. to not answer the door. if a stranger knocks. how dangerous do you think t.j. lane is? >> i can't get into anything obviously that he stated to me. attorney-client privilege ledge. however we all know why we weren court. i wouldn't have been needed had a bunch of children not been killed and harmed for life. and the actions speak for themselves. there is good reason, obviously, to give a warning to all the people surrounding. >> you think in this area of ohio tonight people do need to feel that they're in some level of danger or take precautions? >> look, any time any one escapes from prison they dent want to go back. no one ever wants to go to prison. so that, by itself, should give

people you know cause to be concerned. again we all know why we were in cou court, we know what happened at chardin high school. it doesn't take any great leap to know and to believe that people should be concerned. absolutely. >> in court, in court was he wearing a t-shirt that said killer? >> he did. he took off the outer shirt in court at the time of sentencing to reveal that sometime prior to entering the courtroom that morning or the night before he scribbled the word killer on the white t-shirt provided by the jail. >> will tonight there is a warning for any one in this area, that this prisoner, t.j. lane, convicted murderer has escaped from prison. the police are telling everyone to stay inside not answer their door if a stranger knocks on their door. we'll keep everyone posted as to the developments of this escape by t.j. lane. ian friedman, thank you for joining us. >> you are welcome.

>> keep you posted. keach meanwhile, while the country is consumed with the ray race saga. a high profile domestic violence case, playing out. america's highest paid athlete, floyd mayweather accused of assaulting his girlfriend, gloria allred represents her and joins us now on the phone. gloria, thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me. >> what does your client allege happened to her? >> well, she alleges among many others things she was assaulted by mr. mayweather. that's what is alleged in the lawsuit. you've know, i do think that people should boycott mayweather's fight on saturdayen protest of his history and his current stance on domestic violence. the public shouldn't order and pay for the pay-per-view broadcast of the mainweather fight. that would serve to support and reward mr. mayweather. the nevada boxing commission should step up to the plate.

they should suspend the upcoming match. they never took any action against him. following his plea and sentencing for domestic violence against the mother of his children. there is no excuse for abuse. no execution for the nevada boxing commission to not invoke punishment or consequences on a boxer who inflicts violence against women. >> they're probably not going to do that. he brings in so much money. how do you explain why ray rice is fired from the ravens, indefinitely suspended from the nfl for knocking his girlfriend unconscious which we have seen. floyd mayweather has a fight this saturday in which heave stand to make personally at least $40 million. explain that? >> well the answer it is a double standard. the answer is, there is no video here of the violence. of course, floyd mayweather himself, suggested in march this, remarks this week to the

press, while there is no video of -- of violence by anyone who hears him. but the truth its that doesn't mean there isn't evidence. after all he was convicted. he was sentenced for -- for violence against the mother of his children. and there doesn't have to be a video. majority of cases of domestic violence in this country. there is no video. there are no photos. yet there are convictions of perpetrators of domestic violence. that should not be the deciding factor. you know what, profit matters. to businesses. i know it matters to the nevada boxing commission. it matters to the nfl. but i think violence against women ought to also matter. it is time for the nevada boxing commission to step up to the plate. this is outrageous. >> you mention he did feel qualified for some reason to weigh in on ray rice situation this week. let's play for our listeners

what he told the reporter. >> thanks a lot. going into other people any household also. they just don't. they didn't have, they just -- they just don't -- it just is not caught on video. >> he is basically saying there is many worse things than what we saw in that elevator between -- ray rice and his then fiancee. what does your client want to see happen here? she alleged quite a few things in ling thdy lawsuits. picture of emotional distress. false imprisonment. battery. all kind of things. and -- it's very, very serious what she has alleged. she had a 7-year relationship with mr. may weather jr. and you know, no man should ever

have to be accused of assaulting the woman he says he loves. and loves him clearly. and this is what our lawsuit alleges. and we feel that -- that we are going to proceed and prosecute this lawsuit. i might add she and i are going to a domestic violence fund raiser saturday night in los angeles to support other survivors of domestic violence. we are going to be there. he can fight his fight. we are going to be fifting domestic violence. >> gloria allred. thank you for bringing thisster to our attention. we will follow it. >> thank you, bye-bye. >> now i want to bring in beverly gooden, creator of the hash tag, called #whyistayed. it sparked a heated digital conversation about domestic violence. beverly, thank you for joining us. off awe thank you for havi awe thank you for having me.

>> when you hear people in the media say of janay rice or chantal jackson. why don't they just leave. it drives you crazy. why, what is wrong with that advice. >> it puts the blame on the victim as opposed to the person who victimized. i stayed in a marriage far too long. i stayed. i had my reasons for staying. i started the hash tag as a response to all of the people who immediately out of the gate said, why did she stay? why didn't she leave. why did he hit her? what is his reason for doing this? why is he behaving this way? it's not fair to ask her. she may mhave financial reasons emotional reasons for staying. any reason for staying. i started the hash tag to call attention to the fact that there are multiple reasons why some one who is an abusive relationship might stay. but the pressure isn't on them to explain. the pressure is on the abuser to explain why he abused.

>> a great point. you put out, probably a dozen at least, of these, of your tweets. with the hash tag, why i stayed. the first one. all these folks trashing women for staying in abusive situations have no clue what happens the moment you reach for a door handle. what does happen? >> there its -- there is fear there. some times stopped by the person abusing you. any time some one tries to leave. some one who exerted control over them. that person is not happy about it. you know they're not like, sure, walk out of the door. they're going to fight against you. they're going to big you to stay. they're going to be sweet. they're going to romance you to stay. there is all types of thing that happen. when i tried to leave the first time. i definitely felt fear. i was afraid. i was scared. the fear was paralyzing enough to make me not want to even try. so, people are going through this every day. there is fear.

>> so how did you get out. for the people, you know, statistics that show one out of every four women and there are some men who are victimized as well. should mention. a huge number that are physically abused. they want to hear from you. how did you get out? i had a plan. started to go on domestic violence web sites. one of the first thing they said. the best way to escape is have a plan. plans take time. it took me two months to actually get out of that. marriage. one of the things they told us to do was have a bag. in the bag have clothing and toiletries and things you need. in the case that you are in a situation and you have to just run. you have to escape. you can grab the bag, it has the the clothing in it, the toiletries and you know, dough odorant, soap, things you need. you can get that and run out. one of the first things i did. i saved grocery money he would give me. heave w he was the provider. gas money. a few dollars here and there.

have something so i could get out. it took a while. that's the purpose of the hash tag. to show although it looks lix there is inaction there may be action. some times it takes time. time. >> such a great message. have of a plan. get ready. take your time. and then get out when you can. beverly gooden. thank you so much for telling us your personal story. we appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> thank you. >> next, tavis smiley will weigh in on lots of developments with rice and ferguson, missouri. believe it or not how he feels about "dancing with the stars." today her doctor has her on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. when folks think about wthey think salmon and energy. but the energy bp produces up here creates something else as well: jobs all over america. engineering and innovation jobs. advanced safety systems & technology. shipping and manufacturing.

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>> from ray rice case to the death of michael brown, america is struggling with questions abut race right now. who better to talk to about all of this than tavis smiley, latest book "death of a king, the real story of martin loout king jr.'s final year." tavis smiley joins me now. >> good to see you, don. thank you for having me on. >> ray rice, the owner of the ravens spoke out last night.

here's what he said. i want you to respond. >> -- have a tendency to hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see. i was picturing a, i was picturing her, wailing on him and him smacking her and maybe her head was this far from the wall and, and with her inebriation dropped. why did i conclude all that? because i wanted to. >> does it matter. are people making excuses for ray rice? >> there are excuses being made all the way around. i am concerned about the dignity and humanity of both of them. and how we protect that to try to save their marriage. but at the end of the day when you are caught on tape doing what ray rice did there is a price that has to be paid. and ray has to pay a price for that. roger goodell, i think might end up paying a price for that. i deon't see how he survives ths

long term. i didn't see how he survives. >> i wrote an editorial. -- i read an editorial. there is no excuse for what he did. any one can be forgiven if they choose to do the right thing. i wrote a column saying is roger good doing more damage to the nfl than ray rice to his reaction to the situation? >> i wouldn't argue that. we don't know at this hour. if it turns out that this ap story, an ap story, we would look to believe that it is factually corrected. if the story its true that the nfl had this tape in its possession three months ago, that's damning, not only damning evidence, an indictment. roger goodell may not survive. >> lot's get to the race aspect. "the washington post," the writer talks about comparing the excuses being made by black men to the ones that are being made about darren wilson. when we are beaten, slain, persecuted our sisters, mothers,

wives stand for us with nearly unilateral unwavering support march for us cry out our names demand justice and support us in our moments of quiet fear when we shed the bitter tears of self-doubt and fatigue. why aren't we doing the same thing? what do you make of that, race in this case, do you think too many black men are making k kuss for ray rice, ray rice's behavior? >> i have not talked to a single african-american man who had main any excuse for ray rice. that may be the case in certain quarters. i have not had the experience. the men that i associate with, don lemon included, understand that what happened here is unacceptable. we also understand as black men, this is not the way it ought to be. we are always painted with a broad brush. as goes one of us, so goes all of us. >> let's talk about this book. i want to get to this. you call dr. king america's greatest democrat ic.

small d. our greatest public intellectual. he ends up changing the country. at one point, j. edgar hoover had him as the most dangerous man in america. he used ideas and love. the most dangerous man in the country. the introduction lays out why the book is so important to me. i am about to turn 50. i wouldn't have made it to 50 if i couldn't navigate past 12. at 12, in the hospital having been brutally beaten. as a 12-year-old. i've couldn't understand. i get introduced to dr. king through audio tape. i hear the love in his voice and hope in his soul talking to the nation about the power of love and forgiveness and how hate is not an option and love is the only thing that can turn an enemy into a friend. he is talking to a country. might have been talking to a 12-year-old. saves my life at 12. my life is dedicated to make the world safe for his legacy. >> a mentor you did know. >> he is dead, but saved my life, my mentor in absence. >> i asked pharell. he said this is not over.

repercussions for years to come. there is some new video out there that, you know, supposedly is a bomb shshellbombshell, two construction workers, contractors, moments after the shooting saying, he had his hand up. this is deemed as i said something that is ground breaking. but there were witnesses who were before, who were black, and it appears that more credence from, some people, is being put on the white contractors than on the black eyewitnesses. >> it underscores martin king was right about the triple threat. 50 years ago. >> do you agree with that? >> what? >> more credence is booing put? >> we have known for years. we say in our community, the old adage. tell everybody. too many believe that the white man's ice is colder. that's just another way saying if he is white he gets a lot more respect, a lot more props, if he is white. that is an old story inside black america. martin made this almost 50 years

ago. what is threating our democracy, triple threat of racism, poverty militaryism. what we saw in ferguson, racism, poverty and militaryism. a burden all of us in the country bear. we have to get serious if we save our democracy. >> are you going through a mid life crisis this? >> i am not. why do you ask? >> because you are going to put on, don some tight clothing, and very little of it, and be on dancing with the stars. >> there will be no tight clothing, no twerking, nothing glittery. >> why should we watch, tavis? >> want you to see how good my fox trot is. >> your move, signature move? >> people ask me can you dance. you know what if you not the show, can you dance is an irrelevant question. can you learn? can you listen? can you get the steps right? remains to be seen. i think i have as good a shot as anybody else. >> so if you win will you come back? >> if i win i will come back. if i lose, don't call me.

>> come on! tavis smiley. >> sore loser, don't call me. >> "death of a king, the real story of the death of martin luther king jr.'s final year." >> thank you, don. >> if i lose i will be pouting somewhere. don't call me. >> we will be right back. citracal maximum. easily absorbed calcium plus d. beauty is bone deep.

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>> i want to show you a live look at lower manhattan right now. tonight, on the anniversary of 9/11, these twin towers of light shine up into the night sky from the world trade center.

at a ceremony honoring the victims was held at the site earlier today. it is still so emotional to hear all of the names read out by their loved ones. meanwhile, the fight against isis grows. a u.s. official tells cnn that the pentagon has begun surveillance flights over syria in an effort to gather intelligence before any possible air strikes. let's talk about the president's strategy, with congressman, brad sherman. california democrat, a mom were of the foreign affairs committee. and congressman trent franks an arizona republican on armed services committee. gentlemen. thank you so much for being here. congressman franks. let me start with you. the president laid out a four prong add prech to destroying isis. he said, more air strikes in iraq and syria. support for local fighters on the ground. cut off funding of isis. and provide more humanitarian aid to innocent civilians. do you agree with his strategy? >> the president said many things we shouldn't do that i

think was a mistake. the things he said we should do ironically were very much in keeping with the bush doctrine. i find it incredible. george bush warned that if we left iraq before commanders said we were ready, that we would see horrific killings on a mass scale. and that we would have to return to iraq with troops at some point perhaps to face an enemy that was even more dangerous. i really believe that barack obama owes george bush an apology. along with the, men and women who fought in iraq and watched their blood bought gains evaporate as the the president of the united states stood idly by with a golf club in his hand. >> will you support his plan for air strikes? >> i do, yes. >> congressman sherman, what are your thoughts on the president's plan? >> first in response to how we got here. it was the last administration that installed maliki in office. this is a man, ruling from

baghdad, created the ground in which isis grew. maliki expelled us from iraq. maliki would not negotiate a, an agreement to keep our forces in limited numbers in iraq, past -- past -- i believe it was 2011. and -- george bush couldn't negotiate that deal with maliki and george bush had installed him. to blame the president for not being able to deal with the problem that had been installed in baghdad it, any way that is ancient history. i support the idea of using our air power to -- to, degrade and confine isis. what i don't want to see thousand of american troops on the ground. unfortunately with just air power. we will not be able to completely obliterate isis any time soon. >> uh-huh. want to play for you an interesting moment in saudi arabia today where secretary of state kerry was asked if in fact the u.s. is now at war with

isis. here's what he said to that. >> i think that is the wrong term analogy. what we are doing is engaging in a very significant counterterrorism operation. it is going to go on for some period of time. somebody wants to think about it as being war with isil, they can do so, the fact is a major counter terrorism operation that well have many different moving parts. >> congressman franks why not call it a war? >> we should. isis believes it is a war. mr. kerry also said that isis has nothing to do with islam which would come as a tremendous surprise to isis. this president can't seem to even call terrorism, terrorism. he called terrorism at fort hood, work place violence he called terrorism across the world, overseas contingencies. next he'll be calling drug dealers, unlicensed pharmacists. we cannot engage an enemy that

we can't understand or even stay what they are. on a stra stategict strategic l. the president is understanding, how many beheadings, crucifixes, rai rapes, tortures, murder did it take before he got a clue. >> congressman sherman are we at war? >> we are at war. follow the war powers act. have separate votes in congress on whether we should arm and train the syrian rebels. whether we should authorize air strikes against isis. and whether we should authorize, i wouldn't be for this, a ground operations against isis. congress ought to vote and not have the president say since 2001, 13 years ago today, it caused us just a couple weeks there after to get, to pass a -- pass an autizatihorization to g after al qaeda.

isis is not al qaeda. we ought to have a separate vote. >> gentlemen. thank you. we have run out of time. thank you for taking the time to give us your per speperspective tonight. off awe we . >> what happens when we put an opponent together with a terrorism analyst? we'll find out next.

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>> isis is getting bigger, the cia now estimates that the number of isis fightersen iraq and syria could be as high as 31,500. nearly triple the original estimate. so can a combination of air strike and local ground forces destroy isis? our cnn political commentator doesn't think so and opposes the plan to strike isis. also with us cnn terrorism analyst and co-author of "agent storm, my life inside al qaeda and the cia" featured in a cnn documentary airing tuesday, september 16 at 9:00 p.m. thank you for joining us. sally, you think u.s. air strikes may only serve to strengthen isis.

make your case. >> well, look. we don't have to believe me on this one the we can believe our national intelligence estimates and our intelligence community. also your own common sense, right. most people don't just wake up, yes, some terrorists are born crazy, but most don't just wake up deciding to hate america. something happens to make them hate america. in this case, the same thing. look, you can't bomb an ideology. but what bombing does do is make more people drawn to that ideology. arguably that's why isis is golding us into these actions in the first place. does sal yly have a point? >> sally has good points. isis has not plotted any terrorist plots against the west yet. it has not even explicitly threatened attacks against the west. but it is potentially a

long-term threat to the west. it has rather frightening, up to 1,000 western recruits in its ranks. tens of millions of dollars. training camps on a scale seen in taliban-run afghanistan, and bomb makers who can give westerners training. from a european, american perspective, it is intolerable having a growing islamic state on the southern shores of the mediterranean. >> sally, here is where you are going to lose people. you made great points. you will lose people. you think the u.s. should pursue a approximatepolicy of politics. of course this is a group that beheads people and crucifies people. and it's bent on annihilation. so how can kid gloves work? >> well, hang on. i don't think that strong dip lope m diplomatic solutions, cutting off ties, stop flooding the area with american weapons. that's not kid gloves at all. number one.

number two, look this is not to say they're not evil, off one atrocious. something mengs mentioned which really critical. listening to republicans, the president, the news might be hissing this point. there is no direct threat that isis has made against americans. intelligence community has been clear about that. yet there is a case being made. which was repeated. that the possibility of a future threat is enough to justify yet again spending american energy, treasure, and potentially lives, on an errand that might not prevent the threat that might not exist but may make everything worse by enflaming tensions. >> good point, sally. paul, what abut thout this, mil action of prevention, not an imminent threat? >> that's right. to a large degree. air strikes will have to erode, their safe haven. take out senior leadership.

take out their training -- camps. diminish capability to plot terrorist attacks. of course by launching the strikes. intensifying. makes it more likely in the short term. yes will retaliate, allison. >> there we go. at what cost? at what cost? >> sally, i am going to interrupt you and direct everyone to cnn.com to read your column on all of this. great to see you. paul, sally, thank you so much. >> we'll be right back. work with equity experts who work with regional experts that's when expertise happens. mfs. because there is no expertise without collaboration.

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>> that will do it for me. thank you for watching. ac 360 starts right now. >> good evening. thank you for joining us. tonight our interview with diane foley, mother of murdered captive jim foley. she talks to us in her first interview. her son's faith in humanity. passionate belief in his country. his country let her son down. surprising revelations about what happened behind the scenes while her son was in captivity and what she hopes his legacy will be. breaking news, new report that throws more doubt on nfl commissioner's claim he only learned the details of what ray rice did in the elevator when he saw the tape of it on tmz monday. now, espn is reporting that roger goodell learned these ugly details when ray rice himself