>> that will do it for me. thank you for watching. ac 360 starts right now. >> good evening. thank you for joining us. tonight our interview with diane foley, mother of murdered captive jim foley. she talks to us in her first interview. her son's faith in humanity. passionate belief in his country. his country let her son down. surprising revelations about what happened behind the scenes while her son was in captivity and what she hopes his legacy will be. breaking news, new report that throws more doubt on nfl commissioner's claim he only learned the details of what ray rice did in the elevator when he saw the tape of it on tmz monday. now, espn is reporting that roger goodell learned these ugly details when ray rice himself

told him months ago. we begin with the mother of jim foley. a mother determined to keep her son's legacy alive, a mother revealing details of what she says happened behind the scenes while her son was held hostage. when journalist jim foley was kidnapped in syria by isis terrorists, his mother became tireless advocates for jim's safe return. for 21 months they showed strength, they showed grace, they maintained both as they and the world learned the very worst about what happened to jim. last night the president mentioned jim foley and fellow captive steven sotloff. >> isil is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. and it has no vision other than

the slaughter of all who stand in its way. in a region that has the known so much bloodshed, they kill captured prisoners, kill children, they enslave, rape and for women into marriage. they threaten the religious minority with genocide. and in acts of barbarism they took the lives of jim foley and steven sotloff. >> with u.s. aircraft mapping out locations in syria. diane foley is talking about the son she loves and the james foley legacy foundation being launched tomorrow. she is speaking candidly about her belief that the u.s. government did not do enough off to bring jim home safely and despite kind word did not do a good job of working with her family during their long ordeal. i spoke earlier today to her. >> jim was very passionate about freedom, freedom of the press, freedom for disadvantaged children, a chance for

education, but i know had he survived this ordeal he would have been very passionate about the need to make kidnapped citizens a priority. a priority for our country, and internationally to, to try to promote dialogue for some consensus and strategy. >> right now there is not consensus? >> there is not. >> european nations, pay for their hostages. >> exactly. >> the u.s. says they're unwilling to do that. >> exactly. >> you are saying -- the countries need to be on the same page? >> absolutely. particularly. not only that, they need to, there need to be an international dialogue. the risk is becoming higher and and i really feel that our country let jim down. and -- >> in what way? >> well, andersen, i, i, we met wonderful people within our government. good people who cared, who wanted to help. but, the reality of the bureaucracy and -- and -- really -- was such that -- we were not helped.

we really weren't. >> you didn't feel look they were there for you, that the u.s. government helped. >> not at all. and yet we don't blame. i don't want to blame people. because that's not going to help. >> so you, did you feel that -- that your family, that, that jim was a priority? for the, for the government? >> no. we really didn't. you know? >> and you saw that in what in? the resources that they had you interact with, the people they had you interact, what, how did you get that sense? >> as american american i was embarrassed and appalled, you know? i think -- our efforts to -- to get jim freed were an annoyance, you know? and --

>> an annoyance to the government? >> yes, jim would have been saddened. jim believed till the end that his country would come to their aid. we were, you know, asked to not go to the media. to just trust. that it would be taken care of. we were told we could not raise ransom. that it was illegal. we might be prosecuted. >> you were told you would actually be prosecuted. >> yes, that was a real possibility. told that many times. we were told that our government would not exchange prisoners. would not do a military action. so, we were just told to trust that -- that he would be freed somehow. miraculously. and he wasn't, was he? you know? so we, americans, failed him. it is nobody's fault, it's just

the fault of a lack of discussion around it. and understanding of the problem. >> were you surprised when you were told that you could be prosecuted if you tried to raise money? >> i was horrified. i was horrified. because we had had legal counsel that had assured us that no family of a -- of a captive american had been prosecuted for trying to get their child freed. >> there was a rescue effort made? >> late. very late. yes. >> you think it should have been sooner? >> we feel that the location, their location was known for more than a year. >> it was. >> yes. they had been moved a couple of times. that's true. when there was a movement of isis. there were several moves in that transition. but there was also two times when they were at a location that we were aware of for months.

>> did you have that intelligence yourself? did you know that -- what was happening to him? >> to be honest, that part was rather frightening. we tended to know everything before the fbi or -- or any one else. >> how so? >> because -- we did everything we could. i went to europe several times to interview the european freed hostages, just so i could find out how jim was, what is going on, where are they? what are the chances of this or that? it was a frightening thing. and the fbi was -- everyone was kind and supportive. but the fbi used us for information. >> really? they came to you for information about his location? >> absolutely. yes. >> how much communication did you have? >> only when i went, when i asked for it. the enemy is -- is isis, the terrorist. the enemy is not our government the i hope that through this

legacy foundation that -- that our government will be willing to dialogue with -- with our family and other families so that we can -- make american citizens in captivity more of a priority and that we can work together to -- to live up to the best of what we should be as americans. jim was killed in the most horrific way. he was sacrificed because of -- just a lack of coordination, a lack of communication, a lack of prioritization, as a family we had to find our way through this. on our own. >> as i was watching the president speak last night. i was wondering if you were watching. >> oh, yes, i watched. >> what was going through your mind? >> this is, this whole strategy to, you know, eliminate isis and

the terror threat and -- is important. obviously. and so maybe part of, perhaps part of the strategic way of doing it is to bomb them. you know? and to engage in force. but -- that only caused jim's death, really. you know, i guess all i am trying to say is i feel that our government need to be shrewder, smarter, willing to negotiate with these people who hate us, so that we can find better ways to rid ourselves of terror. >> for you, are you able to see jim as he was in life, or -- is that image of him at the end, something that is -- that is seared in your -- >> oh. andersen what keeps us going is definitely the way jim lived. jim will live on.

and that is our -- that is our deepest desire. that this foundation makes that happen. in the best sense. that our -- that our government can have -- better, better response to american hostages and their families. that we can continue to promote freedom of speech. and -- and -- education in the world. that the best of america can be promoted. that's our hope, andersen. >> that's his legacy. >> that is his legacy. >> national security adviser, susan rice, response to to what diane foley said. two experts in the field if all that could have been done to save jim foley's life, is negotiating with captors or paying ransom ever a good idea. as we go to break, a look at twin beams of light rising up from lower manhattan, symbolizing the world trade center fell 13 years ago, this morning, living us the world we have been living in ever since. [ female announcer ] you can change your style

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we invited the white house for some one to comment on air. they declined. today wolf blitzer asked her

about it. here's what she told him. >> i have gotten to know diane foley well as she and i have met on a number of occasions when i was ambassador to new york, and here at washington in the white house. she is an extraordinary woman. she did an amazing job on behalf of her family and with her husband and other children to do everything possible, leave no stone unturned to try to bring jim home safely. we are all heartbroken that that was not possible. but i and others in the u.s. government worked very hard with diane foley and her family, to try to be supportive, to try to provide what information we could, and of course as you know, the president ordered a very daring and very well executed rescue operation when, on the only occasion we had, what we thought was fresh and we hoped actionable intelligence about the whereabouts of jim

foley and the other hostages. unfortunately, they were no longer there. but -- i think that effort which involved hundred of american personnel and -- and, a very sophisticated effort, underscores the, the importance that we attach to doing everything we possibly can to bring americans in captivity back home. >> dig deeper now with dan owe shea, former navy seal, from 2004-206, coordinator of the working hostage group in baghdad, and the author of my journey out of islamic extremism and contributor at "the daily beast." >> dan, you heard what diane foley had to say. what your thoughts were on her perspective? >> i talked to many families after my tour. i came back and met with many of my families that expressed very, very similar frustrations about what, what they perceive as the lack of an effort by the u.s. government to try to bring their loved ones home. and -- you know, the reality is,

we spent two years in iraq. we are hundred if not thousand of folks that worked on many cases, hundreds of kidnapping cases. many folks -- many of my peers included, went on nightly missions and raid, hundreds of missions to try to find actual intelligence on, just say one kidnapping. so it's a very complex environment that families not getting a lot of information from the government. it is very challenging. it just brings back a lot of bad memories here. and our thoughts and concerns about her, her son. >> that is one, that is certainly one of the things dan, i think she hopes to be able to improve in the future. is -- the flow of information or at least the -- the relationship between the u.s. government and hostage families. they feel very alone in this. they feel they're in unchartered territory. and, are, she at least feels

very much that, that they were kind of left to their own devices in many ways. is there ways to, are there ways to improve that? >> well, i can just tell you that -- unfortunately, the u.s. government is not in the business of sharing information. the folks that called her and dealt with her, they're not going to get a lot of information out. they can't. because the fear the information will remain in the media. there are experts in the field that people can reach out to. because the it is really hard to navigate that, that, relationship when you are, your son or daughter is the subject of a, a, kidnapping mission that may or may not be in the works. so, families, there are resources out there for the families. but the u.s. government is not in the business of revealing information. so that's where -- mrs. foley and others feel they're left in the cold. >> is it possible to negotiate with a group like isis? is it any way wise? ms. foley is not just talking about paying money which is what, western european governments do. possibly prisoner exchanges or opening a dialogue. do you think that's even possible? >> well, anderson, one its that

currently i don't think it is possible. because, i don't think, isil any longer need financing. i think they're making enough on their own. when this organization was -- was akin to other franchises in africa where they need money. they are willing to trade hostages for millions and millions of dollars. but isil is making that much every day any way. secondly, if it were possible. even if it was something that isil were prepared to do. i highly doubt that they would be. they don't need the money as i said. it compromises national security.

there are countries in europe that do exchange money for hostages. the united kingdom where i am speaking from, absolutely never accepts that as a bargaining tool. other countries choose to. what that does is it is means that those citizens from those countries are then deliberately targeted by terrorists for further kidnappings. what it tend to do it ratchets up the kidnappings of people from there and the price goes up and the terrorists turn it into a business. that compromises national security and they're learning that the hard way and beginning to revise their approximately seize. -- to revise their policies. god forbid any of us are in the situation diane foley found herself in. which mother wouldn't be upset. it is expected she will be. distraught. isil, many interpretation of islam, believes terrorizing their enemy as an end to itself. for them the horrible things they have done to the journalists both foley and sotloff, these are ends, to make us scared of them to weaken us. they believe that is something to be achieved as a strategy of war. so this is the theter around decapitations, the spectacle, filming of it. speeches, all that is carefully

orchestrated to strike fear in our hearts as they believe god commanded them to do. >> appreciate you being on as always. just ahead, what the nfl is doing to answer seriously lingering question as but the way it handled the ray rice case. more sources coming forward to suggest that commissioner roger goodell knew more than what he has been letting on. i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving.

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>> breaking news and how the nfl handled the case of ray rice. former running back for the baltimore ravens. including a new report from espn that cast doubt on roger goodell. four sources told espn, rice met with the commissioner and told him he punched his fiancee in the elevator. just this week, goodell told cbs the meeting in june wasn't anywhere as near as clear as espn sources are making it sound. this on top of the nfl assertion that it didn't see the tape until we all did, despite associated press report that says the video was given to the league five months ago. now the, the nfl, hired former fbi director to look into how

the league handled the case. it sound like he is going to have plenty to investigate. miguel marques with more live. let's talk about new information about roger goodell. what is it? >> espn reporting june 16 a meeting in goodell's offices, ray rice, his wife, two reps from the players union. ozzie newsom, gm of the ravens and the president of the ravens, four of the individuals in the meeting described to espn reporters, rice said he punched his then fiancee. one said he said the word slapped. here's how roger goodell said it to nora o'donnell earlier this week on cbs. >> when we met with ray rice and his representatives it was ambiguous about what actually happened. >> what was ambiguous about her laying unconscious on the floor being dragged out by her feet? >> there was nothing ambiguous about that. that was the result that we saw. we did not know what led up to that. >> how could that be ambiguous?

>> what he is saying this was not a meeting where he was drilling down trying to figuree out him and rice in a room. this was several people in that room. it, it was, it was more of a conversation how they get beyond this. it was, they really weren't trying to got to what actually happened in the elevator. the alternative narrative, keep in mind some of the individuals in the room are, are, are friend of rice or people who think that he is getting a raw deal in all of this. the alternative narrative of this was, espoused by the team owner, steve bischotti when he talked about the way he envisioned what happened in the elevator. prior to seeing the tmz tape. >> we love ray, so we have a tendency to hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see. and so the, the misdemeanor, the explanation that he hit her with an open hand, the fact that she was aggressive, i, i was

picturing a, i was picturing her, wailing on him and him smacking her. >> you know it is interesting. there is now this investigation being headed by the former director of the fbi some people say it is not going to be impartial enough before it gets under way. >> he is with a law firm, prestigious law firm in washington, d.c. several, dick cass, president of the ravens worked for the law firm, for 31 years. the law firm worked on, nfl deals, tv deals. and had a lot of former employees. a lot of concern about that. they have gold standard investigators they think they can get the thing done. he is ready to start today. >> miguel marques, thank you. rachel nichols, cnn's jeffrey toobin, and the executive director and writer for "sports illustrated." i saw you shaking your head. do you believe the former

director of the fbi can do an impartial investigation? the law firm has all these ties. >> thee law firms, big law firms. lots of people worked there and in other places. look, bob mueller one of the most distinguished public servants, spend all most all his life in the public sector. i didn't have a shred of doubt he will pursue this with integrity which opposed to the nfl which looks more ridiculous every day. the idea that, there were so many things wrong with that interview with nora o'donnell. the idea that apparently goodell was the only person in america that found it ambiguous in the elevator. >> a thing to note. mueller will not have subpoena power, or testify under oath to him what happens in these investigations of course. that then allows a lot of things to happen throughout the course. he might not be able to get to the truth.

what we have seen throughout all of this, they don't seem particularly interested in giving us the truth. >> ray rice's attorney had the tape. i don't know if cbs knew that at the time they sat down for the interview. there is no explanation for why or even if they tried to get the tape from ray rice's attorneys. >> yeah, exactly. this has been absolutely bungled from the start. and absolute best case scenario, the nfl's fact finding was amazingly shoddy. and i think something that, that this is the most buttoned up organization. they do not make pr gaffes the way leagues do. existentialer to of concussions is one thing. this is kangaroo court stuff. from the start they have absolutely -- >> you have stories of what roger goodell knew and when he knew it. >> it's suspect. the whole ray rice maybe didn't

tell us the truth defense. only cropped up in the nora o'donnell interview two nights ago. >> because the coach of the team said he told us everything. >> when he suspended ray rice for two games. there was a huge backlash then. just said the only one in america who thought something possibly innocent might have happened in that elevator. he then went forward and said i was wrong. we didn't get it right. at that point he never said ray rice wasn't truthful. a new theory. >> listen to the remarkable piece of sound from bischetti, who said we imagined there was a fight. imagined based on what. this fantasy they have. >> they see what they want to see. >> ray rice used the term

domestic violence. nothing changed from a week ago. >> the ravens tweeted out. the fiancee was apologetic. >> hosted this apology as well. >> a new level of victim blaming. "the wall street journal" published its website, quoting an unnamed nfl owner saying the reason roger goodell gave a light punishment because janay rice made a compelling statement and asked him to. janay rice is in the room in the meeting with her husband who has punch her unconscious, with four executives from the baltimore ravens hovering over her as well as her husband's lawyer. to force her to been the position to begin with "tell her story" is unbelievable. but then to then blame her and that story that she told under those conditions is the reason roger goodell should be let off the hook. i don't know know who their anonymous owner is, he need to backtrack. >> she is publicly supporting ray rice. >> this is why, one of the things we have been talking

about from the beginning, is that women who are victims of domestic violence often stand by their men. we can talk about the reasons for that. but domestic violence is a crime against the community. as well as the the -- >> explain. >> the idea is that when you hilt someone, when you commit an assault, it's not up to the victim to decide whether charges should be pressed. it is up to the community. it is up to the police. and it is often the case that women don't want to press charges for a variety of reasons that, again, we can talk about. the modern view. police should prosecute even if the women don't want to. this is a dangerous pernicious crime that is often repeated just scant be tolerated. >> it is in complete contradiction of any policy with domestic violence to have the victim testify with her husband and bosses. >> employers. >> wasn't a testimony kind of interview. it was basically sort of seeing

how they could get beyond this whatever exactly that means. >> remember the nfl didn't have a domestic policy until a couple weeks ago. they didn't have one. >> as rachel reminded us many times over the course of this week, it is far from only ray rice in the nfl who, not only have been charged, but people have been convicted of domestic violence and they're still playing. >> 14 in two years. >> john, thank you for being with us. rachel. jeff. just ahead the new video weep exclusively obtained showing the immediate aftermath of michael brown any shooting. what the man who took the video is saying next. kid: hey dad, who was that man? dad: he's our broker. he helps looks after all our money. kid: do you pay him? dad: of course. kid: how much? dad: i don't know exactly. kid: what if you're not happy? does he have to pay you back? dad: nope. kid: why not? dad: it doesn't work that way. kid: why not? vo: are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed?

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when brown was shot and killed by police officer darren wilson. the man on the left says he saw michael brown staring and brown put his hand up and said, okay, okay, okay. the witness told us the cop didn't say get on the ground. he just kept shooting. 360 spoke with the attorney of the man who shot the video. randi kaye joins me live. >> anderson if you look at it, it is real-time reaction. really raw. not hours, days later. some one telling us what they saw. you can see the shock and

horror, after seeing police officer darren wilson chase down michael brown and fatally shoot him. let's play the video and viewers can judge for themselves what happened. >> as you heard and see, several different voices on the tape. one voice is the contractor in the pink t-shirt. you saw him put his hand up. illustrate he saw michael brown wave his hand up. we spoke to him and his co-worker on the phone. the guy in the pink told us that they were close enough to really see a gruesome scene. he says, describing seeing michael brown's brains come out of his head. he also told us, brown was staggering with his hand up. describing him, anderson like a walking deadman. >> what have you've been able to learn about the guy who took the video? >> going by the name chris, we know that is not his real name. his attorney told us he knew michael brown, talking to him before the shooting. when he heard the gunfire, chris, ran inside grabbed his ipad according to his attorney,

started recording from his basement level apartment. what's interesting, chris' attorney says that her client tried to show this video anderson to the police at the scene. they waved him off. didn't want any part of it. gave the fbi contractor's names and footage. the attorney for this guy, chris, told us he started videotaping just 40 second after he heard the gunshots. this is real time. >> randi appreciate it. back with me, jeffrey toobin, anthony gray, and attorney for michael brown's family. jeff, you think the video is important? >> very important. trials have become a much more high tech end prize in recent years. what you can see coming together here is a -- a reconstruction that, that that prosecutors, if this case goes to trial of all of the different witnesses. you could, you could create a graphic. of where the witnesses were standing. and look at what they saw and where they saw it. pull it all together. so far the narratives are basically very consistent. virtually all the witnesses who

could see and have come forward that we know of. say michael brown was shot while his hand were in the air. if that's true. if all of the witnesses say, that michael brown was shot with his hand in the air. this could be a very damaging case against officer wilson. >> anthony, obviously an attorney for the brown family. working with benjamin crump. what do you make of the video? >> the same thing. the significance of this video is huge. i want-up to think about this. just how major it is in my mind. when we go to war, in other countries, and against foreign, foreign, combatants, and they throw their hand up in the air you. shoot that person. you could be charged with a war

crime. we think laws in our country should be the same s if in fact, mike brown had his hands in the air moments before bullets were pumped into his body. it doesn't matter what happened at a video store. it doesn't matter what happened in his juvenile record. doesn't matter what happened at the door of the police car. nothing matters. just like it wouldn't matter if we were to invade a country and the person who was just about to blow your brains out, threw his hand up in the air. what you are required to do is take that person into custody, peacefully, which is what we are saying should have happened to mike brown's case. >> supporters of the police in this and other on servers will say, "look, there is a lot of information. no forensic evidence at all that is in the public domain." >> one thing i am confused about in the different stories was michael brown actually shot in the front -- or in the back. the bullets have not been found. bullets that missed him altogether. so it is true. >> it was according to the independent autopsy.

second autopsy. there was a shot that went back to front through one of the arms. >> only when the clothes are examined, that's when you really are going to be able to see where, which, which direction, and how close especially, how close, officer wilson was when he fired the shots. but you know it is important, as i have said several times here. to keep an open mind about all of the evidence that is out there. including stuff, undoubtedly we haven't heard yet. but this video. this contractor's story is certainly very incriminating. >> anthony, is there any word on the schedule for the grand jury? i mean, weeks ago we were told that, probably, by, sometime in october. is that the time line you are -- understanding, or thinking about? >> that's my understanding. the time line. we don't have a fixed time we know, date certain where they

will make an announcement. it can happen at any moment prior to that october deadline. we were given. we just don't know. but can i just say this about the video? you know, we talk about other evidence coming in. i tell you this. if i have people that are saying the kind of thing that we saw this guy saying on the video. moments after the shooting. his hand were up when he was shot. i don't need anything else. what more do you need in a case like that. it's, to me, it is, disingenuous to say, you need more evidence when you have eyewitness that are there that is telling you what they saw. so i believe them. there is nothing more for me to have in order to develop my belief. that's what i am going on. latched on to the case. attacking it like a bow and arrow. >> october is fast. we are all very impatient here. we want everything resolved immediately. when you look at the number of witnesses, and scientific tests that need to be done. october would be, i am surprised

if they're done in october. >> we'll see. anthony gray, thank you. jeff toobin. ahead, breaking news about how many fighters isis really has the in its ranks. new numbers tonight from the cia. they might surprise you. plus dig deeper on last night's debate, john mccain, and cnn commentator, former white house commentator, jay carney. they went at it over president -- obama's foreign policy. details ahead.

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isis can mobilize more than 20,000 fighters across iraq and syria, possibly as many as 31,500. that's two to five time more fighters than estimated. that word after president obama laid out his plan to dismantle and ultimate low destroy his word isis. his speech last night set off pretty intense fireworks here on 360. senator john mccain, and cnn's new political commentator, jay carney, who oversaw policies of iraq and syria. here is a recap. >> i am astounded that mr. carney should say that the free syrian army is now stronger. in fact, they have been. >> that's not what i said, senator, if i could, sir, what i said was that we know a great deal more about.

>> oh, come on. you knew about it. jay, we knew all about them then. you just didn't choose to know. i was there in syria. we knew. come on, you guys are the ones. it's your boss is the one that went the entire national security team wanted to arm and train them, that he turned them down, mr. carney. >> well, senator. i'm not. i think we have to agree to disagree. >> facts are stubborn thing. you in your role as spoke person bragged about the fact that the last american combat troop left iraq. if we left a residual force, the situation would not be what it is today. there would be a lot more. >> senator, i can posit with great respect for you. >> no, no, you can't. you don't have the facts, mr. carney, that's the problem. >> senator, i understand that you present the facts you believe are true based on the argument. >> not that i believe are true. that are true. >> we leave iraq in perpetuity, he full filled what he thought was right for our country and national security. >> jay, that means it was a bad

decision. >> i certainly understand where we are today. >> jay, jay -- >> not a matter of disagreement, it's a matter of facts. and you have yours wrong and you have distorted them. that got pretty heated and went on. today, jay carney's successor was asked about it at the white house press briefing? >> you heard last night on cnn, your former boss get into it with senator mccain. even today on the senate floor we heard him saying that it was the iraqis that wanted a residual force to stay there. you heard the back and forth. who is right in this? >> i heard back and forth. i heard enough of the back and forth. i am tempted to defer all senator mccain's questions and his criticism to my former colleague. >> joining me chief political analyst, gloria borger. gloria, i should point out to set the record straight, we did not plan to have that, that back and forth. we were interviewing senator

mccain. senator mccain, lobbed something against jay carney. jay sort of stepped in. that's how much it began. but i mean what do you make of it? it was -- it was remarkable. rarely you see people at that level and that level of -- influence and former senator and aide. >> now everyone is so savvy about who they want to be on tv with, you know, andersen. i want to be alone. i deon't want to be with this person or that person. now through this whole confluence of events last night you had a moving story. they actually engaged, substantively, they, disagreed, i spoke with, with, somebody who is close to john mccain to night who said that, you know, while the, you know, mccain folks didn't intend for this to happen they were pretty happy with the way it went.

from, from their point of view. and i think we should see more of this on television. because, you know i think each of them had a point of view, particularly abut whether if the u.s., u.s. forces had stayed, whether we would be in this situation with isis or whether we could have done -- more to keep a residual force there. these are the arguments being played out in congress right now. >> peter, they see this completely different. john mccain makes the argument, if the iraqis wanted it, president wanted it. could have worked something out on the forces thing. jay carney said the president would have been fine. iraqis said no. others say if the u.s. had residual force there and iraqi military fell apart even if there was a u.s. military force, some say that wouldn't have happened. then the u.s. would have been in position of having to try to rescue perhaps, thousand, or tens of thousand of u.s. military personnel. >> these are the nature of counterfactuals. what we can say is public opinion in iraq was hostile to the u.s. staying. most iraqi politicians knew there were votes in getting the

u.s. out. the u.s. was very unpopular in iraq. now it is possible there were key iraqi politicians and leaders whom we might have been able to twist their arms to get them to go against the will of their people and i think it probably is true that in retrospect the obama administration wishes it had tried harder. but the truth is, which is hard for americans to accept, america's military presence in iraq by that point was unpopular among iraqis. >> the other thing interesting in that discussion, sort of the content in it, one of the things i pushed back on jay about that he said, then senator mccain picked up on, which is jay's belief or claim that the opposition now on the ground is sort of in a better position than they were two or three years ago. that simply doesn't, seem to be the case. they have suffered huge losses on the battlefield. not just against the assad regime, against the al-nusra front, and

isis, and huge defections of allegedly, moderate commanders who have gone over to al-nusra, isis, or other celiphous groups. and you know, you don't have the facts on your side. you should know better than that. i have been on the ground in syria. i know what the situation is now. i knew what the situation was, two, three years ago. and you don't have the facts on your side. he is clearly arguing the president's case still. you know, he is the closest thing to a senior administration official that john mccain is going to got to argue with, because he is just recently out. he is still making the president's points about this which is, that he didn't want to arm them. >> peter, that is the most difficult for the u.s. in terms of actually affecting change on the ground in syria is who are they going to actually deal with they're not wanting to put u.s. personnel on the ground? >> right. you can see in president obama's speech, they're much more confident where they have the strategy in iraq, they have some iraqi forces then in syria. i think in retrospect, if we

knew now what we knew then there would be no question we should have been arming the free syrian army, the only potential ground ally we can ally with in syria of course we would have wanted them to be stronger. >> jay wasn't going to say that. and by, by the way, let me point out the irony in all of this. of course, senator mccain is supporting the extra money the president is asking for and in fact he wants more than that. >> peter, gloria, thanks. that does it for this edition of "360." thank you for watching. our coverage continues next with cnn international.

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>> few for joining us. i'm natalie allen. >> good to be with you, natalie. i'm erron barnett. coming up on this hour, shocking figures on the number of isis fighters and werners who joined their ranches. cnn sits down with u.s. secretary of state john kerry as he works to build a middle east coalition to battle the threat head on. >> then the plot thickens over when the nfl knew what happened between ray rice and his now wife. but some are still standing behind the player and the nfl commissioner. >> plus, oscar pistorius will be back in