hello, i'm wolf blitzer. it's 1:00 p.m. many in washington, 9:00 p.m. in tehran. we begin with stunning news from the white house. chuck hagel is out. the secretary of defense's decision on his own timetable, cnn sources say he is, in fact, being forced out. hagel, the first enlisted combat veteran to serve as secretary and the only republican in the cabinet will stay on until the president names his replacement

and that will be confirmed by the senate. many say the surprisingly tough fight against isis, the drawdown of u.s. military forces in afghanistan and pressing military budget problems. nevertheless, the president says hagel leaves the department on firm footing. >> it's been the greatest privilege of my life, the greatest privilege of my life to lead and most important to serve. to serve with the men and women of the defense department and support their families. i'm immensely proud of what we've accomplished at this time. >> let's go to our pentagon correspondent barbara starr. is this something that the president had to do to quiet the critics? give us a a background, barbara, on what has occurred today. >> wolf, across washington, there has been chatter, if you will, for weeks that the white

house wanted to make a change in the foreign policy team, that the president was dissatisfied. you saw all kinds of stories being leaked about this and then the debacle with the midterm elections. the president was not going to fire susan rice, a personal friend to some extent. he was not going to dismiss john kerry, secretary of state. kerry very high profile. hagel perhaps became the last man standing. hagel was seen as an implementer of the policy. in fact, that's what secretary of defense does, to some extent. all of these problems, all of these issues not solved by simply changing the person at the top. the white house wanted to make a change and hagel knew it. he had been talking to the president for the last several weeks, came to the decision, mutual? perhaps not really. because he was not asked to stay. very well aware of the sniping

and the political chatter about him, very well aware the white house wanted to make that change. so by all indications, he was basically forced out and the -- after making the decision, it was very closely held, we know, right up until the end. the chairman of the joint chiefs, general martin dempsey, did not even know about it until sometime in the short period of time before the announcement was made, hours, a couple of days, we don't really know. it's not like anybody knew that hagel and the president were going to do this. very closely held. now the question, of course, wolf, is where do you go from here? you put a new secretary of defense in but what do you really change? do you suddenly change policy? do you put troops on the ground in iraq? do you have a greater presence in syria? is that where all of this is going? that will be very tough going for the president if that's what he chooses to do because, of course, it's been all about no troops on the ground and general

dempsey has already said, if it came to it, he would recommend a small number of troops on the ground in iraq. so there's a lot of churn here still to be sorted out. wolf? >> barbara starr at the pentagon, thanks very much. hagel is very frustrated. that's a direct quote that i'm quoting the republican senator john mccain who spoke with hagel earlier this morning. mccain, who was expected to become the next chairman of the senate armed services committee which will have to approve new secretary of defense nominee called in to a phoenix radio talk show. >> they are going to say, well, it was time for a change and all that but i can tell you, he was in my office last week. he was very frustrated. we have no strategy to combat isis. we have no way of helping the ukrainians. we refuse to give them weapons to defend themselves. we watched the turmoil in the far east with the chinese asserting themselves.

we see a lack of less influence like unknown in history. already the white house people are leaking, well, he wasn't up to the job. believe me, he was up to the job. it was the job that he was given where he really was never brought into that real tight circle inside the white house that makes all the decisions. >> let's get some perspective on this. joining me is jeremy bash, staff to leon panetta as well as the secretary of defense. jeremy, thanks very much for joining us. give me your quick reaction to what we just heard from john mccain. because you know one of the complaints about not just the defense department but the state department, cia and congress department that the white house micromanages everything. they really can't make decisions on their own and it's so frustrating to those various agencies, departments of the u.s. government. >> well, wolf, hagel is really a class act and you saw from his

statement and the white house earlier, he's a patriot and i think the president wanted new leadership there and instead of waiting for the back and forth and the discussion over the weeks decided to do what i think is the honorable thing is to step aside and why? the secretary of defense is three big jobs. the first is to oversee the personnel and readiness of the troops. the second is to oversee the budget of that some $600 billion a year in defense spending. the third is where i think the president needed new leadership on is to oversee strategy and policy, work in the chain of command between the president and commanders. sit in the national security council room and advise the president and be one of the architects of strategy and policy. the president wanted someone else. he thought someone else could do a better job. >> so you have no doubt that he

was pushed, for all practical purposes, he was pushed out? >> well, my sense, wolf, is that he's been serving a year and nine months. he's been doing a lot internally in the department. he's been working on health care and sexual assault prevention, cybersecurity. ice been working on a number of initiatives. just last week in california, many of us were there at the reagan library when secretary hagel unveiled a brand-new innovation agenda for the department. so i think he's been working full steam ahead on certain key initiatives but it's that piece about the defense element in our foreign policy. what are we going to do in iraq, in syria, in afghanistan? how are we going to rebalance our facts to the pacific? we can get someone better in here to do the job and an array of challenges are so big over the years, we've got to get fresh leadership. >> who's that better person to come in? you know most of the names out there.

>> i've worked closely with a number of folks that have worked with deputy secretaries and undersecretaries in the previous leadership changes in the pentagon. i think it's fair to say that they will work very closely at ash carter, who served as deputy to secretary panetta. i think it's fair to say that they will look at michele flournoy who served under both secretary gates as well as secretary panetta and a few others who understand the strategic game and outside foreign policy game and who worked with vice admiral and the combatants. those are who the president will be looking to do the job right now. >> senator jack reed, we put his picture up there. he said he was not interested and wants to stay as the united states senator from the state of rhode island. very quickly, who are the other names you think may be out there? >> well, i don't know, wolf.

i really think it's going to be a small circle of people who this team, the president and his team had experience with. and beyond those names that we've discussed, i'm not sure that i've heard other names although i wouldn't rule it out that they reach for someone on the outside. my sense is, with two years left, they'll go with a trusted name, someone they know who can deliver. >> and that person will have to testify before the senate armed services committee and john mccain will be very, very important and fascinating hearings. jeremy, thanks very much for joining us. jeremy bash with leon panetta, staff at the cia and pentagon. sources telling cnn it's clear that secretary hagel was pushed out. but why now and what is next? newt gingrich and paul begala are here to discuss what is going on. and the barricades are up outside the st. louis county

justice center. all is calm as we await the grand jury's decision on the shooting death of michael brown. hello... i'm an idaho potato farmer and our big idaho potato truck is still missing. so my buddy here is going to help me find it. here we go. woo who, woah, woah, woah. it's out there somewhere spreading the word about americas favorite potatoes: heart healthy idaho potatoes and the american heart association's go red for women campaign. if you see it i hope you'll let us know. always look for the grown in idaho seal.

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call unitedhealthcare today about an aarp medicarecomplete plan. you can even enroll right over the phone. or visit us online. don't wait. call now. let's get back to our top story. the sudden surprising resignation of chuck hagel. he will be fourth secretary of defense during the presidency of president obama. newt gingrich and paul begala are joining me. how surprised were you, newt? maybe in hindsight we shouldn't

have been but i was surprised. >> there have been rumors or two or three weeks but the kind you get in the city. but what is really biz skbrbiza you look around and go, who should it be? the only republican serving in the cabinet -- >> but hagel endorsed barack obama for president of the united states. >> but john mccain does like hagel. and you would think, just for diversity sake, they could have kept one republican in the cabinet. so i think in that sense it's a minor misstep. the bigger problem, of course, is that all of the policies that are getting him in trouble are white house policies. they are not hagel. >> that's the criticism. you hear it from people in the administration, in the executive branch, the obama administration that the white house

micromanages everything and it's so frustrating to these cabinet members. you've heard that criticism? >> it is. but i believe in a strong white house. back in the day, ronald reagan in his second term didn't know who his housing secretary was. he called him a mayor. you don't want that kind of disengagement. i think jeremy bash who you had on earlier, a very well-sourced guy, a lot of important things inside the pentagon taking on sexual assault and budget cuts. but now they want a mr. or miss outside who can deal with the policy change and with a house republican senate -- >> there is a sequester, though. >> that should come up in the hearings. >> we are probably going to find

a way around the sequester because the world is more dangerous in the last 12 months. the real question is going to be, michele flournoy -- >> she would be the first woman as secretary of defense. >> and she has bipartisan respect. the policies are really screwed up are the white house policies. you can talk all you want to, we need to develop strategy. no. the people who develop strategy in this administration are sitting in the white house and there are about four of them. >> and don't you think the playbook for the hearings, whoever the president nominates, that playbook was written by leon panetta and he wrote a really scathing book. >> see, i think this is a change in the white house becoming more insular. nobody wants that. when you see person after person

in whom you have invested trust, then portray that trust by stabbing you in the back and writing a book before your term is over, it's going to make you more insular. >> the lines that you have to say about bill clinton, enormous level of trust and no matter what he did, people were loyal to him and through it all. >> let me put up a statement. "this personnel change must be part of a larger rethinking of our strategy to confront the threats we face abroad especially the threat posed by the rise of isil." >> i think he's right. chuck hagel is a decorated veteran and a remarkable patriot. but they needed somebody who had a broader sense of the framework. that's what secretary boehner is

saying. >> so the point you're making, they don't think he was up to the job? >> to that aspect of the job. to the external driving of different defense posture around the world as opposed to fixing challenges within the pentagon. >> i think the problem was just the opposite. he was deflecting the military's view of what has to be done. the white house does not want to do what the military thinks has to be done and they are going to try to find somebody who comes in and says to the military, we're going this way. shut up and obey. and i think it's going to be a disaster. notice, by the way, tonight the iranians get rewarded by having another delay until july of the so-called -- >> we're going to discuss that in a minute. they couldn't reach a deal so they are going to do this extension for several more months. stand by, guys. we'll discuss that and a lot more. in less than an hour, the president will award 19 recipients, the presidential medal of freedom, among the honorees, tom brokaw,

congressman john dingell and meryl streep. our coverage will begin at 2:15 eastern. i'm be anchoring our coverage around that. you're going to want to see this presidential medal of freedom ceremony. up next, much more with newt gingrich and paul begala as we look at this new report on benghazi. what happened and the reactions to exoneration for the obama administration at least in large measure. and the tension in ferguson, missouri, is palpable as they await the grand jury to indict a white police officer for the killing of an unarmed black teenager.

. the fact is, we have four dead americans. was it because of a protest or because of guys out for a walk one night and they decided go kill some americans. what difference, at this point, does it make? >> that was the secretary of state hillary clinton testifying in january of 2013 about the attack on the u.s. consulate in benghazi, libya. she was being questioned by lapses by the security department and cia being blamed for the deaths of those four americans, including the united states ambassador to libya. let's bring back newt gingrich and paul begala. let's talk about this new house intelligence committee report, republican majority in the house of representatives basically suggesting that there was no great intelligence failure, no cover-up, none of the accusations, basically, that have been made by a lot of the republicans in the house and

elsewhere to which lindsey graham, the senator from south carolina told gloria borger on "state of the union" yesterday this. >> no. no. i think the report's full of crap. >> why. >> quite frankly. >> graham was focusing in on that part of the report dealing with the talking points that were given, for example, to then u.n. ambassador susan rice. let's get your reaction, first of all, to this house intelligence committee report. >> this is now the third major report on the benghazi attacks, right? first -- there was a democratic controlled senate committee on intelligence, five found the same conclusion. there was an independent accountability review board chaired by the joint chairman chiefs of staff and it found the same thing. now a republican-led committee, two-year investigation, hearings, access to classified information, full investigative powers of the house of representatives and they find

the same thing. so i think we can say case closed now. there was something like ten attacks like this when president bush -- w. bush was president and there were no investigations like this. so there's partisanship behind this but at least now we have a tri-partisanship consensus that the conspiracy theories are nuts. >> the report says there was a lot of confusion out there but no deliberate attempt to mislead the american public on what they knew or didn't know but there was intense confusion. >> and frankly, that's why you had the reaction from lindsey graham who went on to say on the same show that he was personally lied to by the deputy director of the cia, that the guy was not held accountable in this report and that it's an absurdity. the deputy direct leaves a white house meeting and goes back and rewrites the talking points in a way that is factually false. you can agree or disagree, i think this is a very -- >> you're saying mike rogers,

chairman of the house intelligence committee and not own the democrats but the republicans did not do a good job with this report? >> trey gowdy -- >> that's a separate investigation. >> yeah. and they pointed out that they haven't even gotten key documents out of the agency and they have no idea why rogers issued this report. and i think this is unwione of e things where if you ever want to see a committee that i think frankly was co-opted by the cia -- >> that's a pretty strong accusation. your job, former speaker of the house, is to oversee the cia and not to be co-opted. >> i've talked to four different people who have a real interest in this topic and they believe it's misleading and will go down as an example of a committee that -- >> i want to get your quick reaction. another several months they are going to continue the discussions. the u.s., the other permanent members of the security council, germany with iran, to deal with

its nuclear program. secretary of state john kerry in vienna, austria, are you okay with that? >> crippling sanctions are crushing the russian economies. as long as the sanctions are going on, the effects are occurring. critically important to maintain that pressure. secretary of kerry should be congratulated for that. >> because all of the members of the u.n. security council are involved. they are on the same page as the russians and chinese as well. >> they are all desperately seeking a way to avoid a crisis and the iranians are quite happy to have them do nothing. thoo he is are not crushing enough that the iranians have conceded anything. >> they are destroying the iranian economy. rouhani has got to get a deal and he knows that. >> then why didn't they? >> they just got seven more months to keep working on nuclear weapons. >> what happens -- so your strategy would be to walk away, right?

john kerry walks out and says you're bad people. how fast before the russians, the chinese and our other alleged friends enrich the folks in tehran? >> okay. so what you're suggesting is that the real advantage we currently have is the guys we totally distrust aren't doing things they could do for guys that we really distrust? >> that's called diplomacy. >> guys, we're out of time right now. thanks to both of you for joining us. just ahead, a nervous city awaits the grand jury's decision in ferguson, missouri. there's concern about violence if a white officer didis not indicted for killing a black unarmed teen.

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and we're getting significant breaking news coming in from ferguson, missouri. u.s. and local law enforcement officials telling cnn that a decision by the grand jury in the darren wilson case is expected to be announced later today. the sources did not know what the decision is, what the announced decision will be. let's go to cnn's justice reporter evan perez. he's on the scene for us in clayton. that's where the grand jury has been meeting in missouri. they were supposed to get a decision on friday. they couldn't over the weekend. presumably they were considering more facts. now they've met again and they've reached a decision. is that what you're hearing,

evan? >> reporter: that's right, wolf. the officials here are getting ready to make a public announcement. on friday they -- instead of asking to see more evidence, they simply said that they wanted to think about it some more. they wanted to discuss it some more. that's why they were back here today to finish their deliberations, to finish the decision making. we're now told by sources that they are getting ready to make that announcement later this evening. they want law enforcement to be prepared for a possible announcement. it won't take much but they want to make sure that they can remind the public that they've got enough resources to protect the public and make sure that everybody keeps calm whatever the decision is, wolf. >> so the prosecutor, mr.

mccullough will make the announcement? >> reporter: that's what we are expecting. he would be making an official announcement, from what we are told. all the best made plans have gone out the window given that they were expecting this to come on friday and then on sunday giving law enforcement plenty of time to get ready. they don't want to push this back any further. we have the holiday coming up later this week so that's the idea that they want to get this out and get -- deal with whatever the blowback or whatever the reaction publicly is, they want to deal with that now. >> so presumably, correct me if i'm wrong, is mccullough notifying parties, including michael brown's parents, for example, the attorneys, various law enforcement authorities, state and federal law enforcement authorities what the decision is so they can be ready

and if he's telling these people what the decision is, aren't there serious concerns of leaks coming out in advance of a public announcement? >> reporter: well yes, wolf. that's exactly right. there's a big concern about possible leaks. so there is, obviously, a procedure to go through here. there's some things that they have to notify the judge to get ready. they also -- mccullough has said publicly that he wants to release all of the materials presented to this grand jury. that is a little more complicated because they need to make sure the judge is okay with that. there is obviously the question of how do you protect the identities of some of the witnesses that came before the grand jury. so all of that is going to be taking place in the next few hours. we expect that michael brown's family will be told before the decision is made publicly and also darren wilson's team, his attorneys would also be told if there's an indictment. they will have to make arrangements to have himself turn himself in. so all of those things are in

place and they are being worked on at this hour. >> and it takes nine members of the grand jury, 12 people on the grand jury to reach a decision. >> reporter: right. >> and it could be the various options, first or second-degree murder, voluntary or involuntary manslaughter or none of the above and he walks. those are the various options before the grand jury, right? >> reporter: right. you have nine people who have to agree on one of those charges and if there's not enough members of the grand jury who agree on any of those things, then you end up with no charges. so there's various ways that it can go. >> stand by, evan, because evan is reporting that they have reached the decision, that decision is expected to be announced by the st. louis county prosecutor later today. i want to bring in the director of the missouri department of public safety. he's joining us from nearby jennings, missouri. thanks very much for joining us. you hear the breaking us into.

a decision has been reached and will be announced by the prosecutor shortly. are you ready, the people in missouri for the announcement? >> yes, we are, the community has been preparing for this decision for a long time. law enforcement operations are all set and, more importantly than that, there's been so much dialogue that's gone on between law enforcement in all sectors of the community that we are prepared for any decision that comes down. >> how worried are you, though, about outside agitators coming in from out of state trying to provoke some kind of confrontation with law enforcement? >> well, a couple of things. because of the dialogue and the communication that has gone on between law enforcement and the community, i think we have an understanding of the sort of rules, ground rules that we're

going to move forward on. so i think that's very, very important. we've learned a lot of lessons, both the community and law enforcement over the last couple of weeks. i think that's going to help in terms of our tone. and then when we do those things, we believe that the people who are coming from outside will be clearly identifiable and we'll deal with those people as well. >> where do you anticipate, mr. isom, the block of the protests to occur? let's assume -- we don't know what the decision is by the grand jury. but let's say there's no indictment, which fuels a lot of anger, would they be in ferguson, in clayton where the grand jury has been meeting? in other words, where are you potentially gearing up for these demonstrations? >> well, we're prepared to go anywhere. law enforcement has an operational plan that is mobile and is prepared to show up

anywhere that is needed to protect people and property and then to have their voice heard. of course, the focal point will be here in ferguson and in clayton and maybe some other areas around the city. but those seem to be the two focal points. >> and you have a good plan, coordination with local, state and federal authorities including the national guard? we heard the governor, jay next son, say a few days ago that he's activated national guard. is everybody coordinated and working together? >> yes. the unified command st. louis city, st. louis county, the missouri highway patrol have been planning for weeks. they are ready and they are prepared. if we need more support, we will have the national guard in place but that will only be in a support role and only if necessary. and then there are other smaller police departments around the community who are willing to assist and support as well. >> mr. isom, good luck to you

and to everyone over there. let's hope for a peaceful amount of demonstrations if, in fact, they do occur. thanks very much for joining us. >> thank you, wolf. and just, again, u.s. and local law enforcement officials tell cnn that a decision in the darren wilson case is expected to be announced later today. we don't know what the decision is. we don't know when it will be announced. we do believe the announcement will come directly from the st. louis county prosecutor. once again, we don't know when that decision will be announced or what the decision is. but here is what could happen. wilson could be charged potentially with murder or manslaughter. but if he is not indicted, he could face possible federal charges and also certainly face some sort of civil suit. let's bring in our senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin. based on what you know -- and i know it's speculation that we're all guessing here, because we don't know what minine members

this grand jury have decided, what do you think are the most likely scenarios? >> you know, wolf, i'm going to give you a nonanswer to your question because i honestly don't know. one thing you have to say for this grand jury, it's been a secret proceeding. we know that darren wilson himself has testified. that is unusual. the target of a grand jury proceeding rarely agrees to give up his fifth amendment rights to remain silent and testify. but outside of that, we don't know. certainly i don't know a lot of the evidence. and one thing i would like to -- one prediction i will make is that if and when the evidence comes out of what the grand jury heard, we're going to see some surprises. we knew there were some eyewitnesss and we're familiar with their testimony because they gave interviews but not everybody did and not all of the scientific tests are out. so i don't know what they are going to do. i don't think this deliberation was particularly long, given the length and complexity of this

investigation, and we'll know the answer soon. >> we certainly will. presumably in the next few hours if not sooner than that. how unusual -- let's say we don't know what the decision is but let's say he's not charged, he's not indicted. the prosecutor still wants to go ahead and then release all of the information, all of the evidence, all of the testimony that was put before the grand jury over these past many weeks? how unusual would that be? >> it would be very unusual. but if there were ever a circumstance where it might be appropriate, this would be one, i think, given the degree of public interest, given, frankly, the suspicion that this prosecutor was not conducting a thorough investigation. i think it would be in the interest of the prosecuting attorney, mr. mccullough, to see all of the evidence and prove that he did a thorough investigation. now, one interesting possibility

is that if there is an indictment, there will probably be no release of evidence until the trial and then only the trial testimony will come out. so, in fact, more testimony might come out if there's no indictment in this circumstance than if there is an indictment, which is certainly unusual but it's an unusual case. >> stand by, jeffrey, because i want to continue this. danny cevallos and mark o'mara is joining us. what do you make of the breaking news that a decision has been reached and it's expected to be announced later today by the st. louis county prosecutor? >> well, they have taken a lot of time. they've gone over a number of witnesses. they've done everything that we should ask them to do as a grand jury and they seem to have deliberated long enough. a lot of questions and i'm sure they've answered it for themselves and looking forward

to a decision so that one way or the other, the nation can move on. >> and danny cevallos, what was your reaction when you heard the news that they have reached a decision? >> well, it's like any time that you wait for any jury. you have no idea when they are going to get done. the fact that there is an announcement tells us that they've looked at all of the evidence and i can tell you for sure, just like jeff said, just like any legal analyst should say, there's no way to read the tea leaves and guess at whether there will be a true bill or no true bill in the case and the jury may be instructed on several different crimes but they've undoubtedly been instructing in self-defense and police use of legal force. >> mark o'mara, if they have a decision now, they've reached that decision, why do they have to wait a few hours to release it? why can't they just go ahead and release it right away? >> well, that's probably the logistics that's been put in place with the department of

justice, local law enforcement agencies because we know whatever the decision is it's going to be looked at by the nation and considered. it's going to be a reaction to it across the board. so i know that they had planned initially to have a 48-hour delay from decision to announcement. we also know that law enforcement has already been ready and willing to go forward whenever the grand jury was. i think what they have done is abbreviate that 48 hours but it's down to five, six, seven hours. i think it's good for law enforcement to get ready to react to whatever is going to come. >> given the passions involved, danny, and i want all of you to weigh in on this as well, let's say there's no indictment -- we don't know what the decision is. no indictment, would it be wise knowing how angry that would result in a lot of folks out there, would it be wise until it's dark to make that announcement, until it's nighttime? >> that's a tactical decision by

not only the prosecution but also the local police when they are considering crowd control. really, there's no handbook on when to announce vis-a-vis the court although we should be mindful that the concept of secrecy is a slippery and elusive one when it comes to courthouse gossip. every hour they hold on to this information is another hour that somewhere, some staff member may accidently mention something to the wrong person. so it's exceedingly difficult to keep anything truly secret in a courthouse. >> jeffrey toobin, that's an excellent point because i know there's enormous concern about leaks. >> there is. and, remember, the defense -- the michael brown's family is going to be notified in advance of the public disclosure. there is going to be a lot of pressure on them. and don't kid yourself, from people like us, from journalists who want to learn from them first what this result is.

so i would be very surprised, frankly, if it goes the full six hours. i don't know the answer to what the best way to release the news is. but i think six hours is -- is a long time to hold a secret like this, especially when you're starting to disclose it in a piecemeal way. sooner is probably better than later. >> under these circumstances, mark, i want to hear what you have to say but, 12 members of the grand jury, are they now free to go? are they still being sequestered, if you will? they have reached the decision. can they simply walk out of that building over there, go home, even if they promise they'll remain quiet or do they keep them under wraps? what's the normal situation in a highly tense environment like it is right now? >> remember, there's a missouri state law saying that they can't disclose the testimony to witnesses or the results.

they are under court order and state law that they don't disclose it. and there is, again -- we're sort of in unchartered territory. i would imagine that the prosecutor is going to ask them to stick around, stay sequestered, if you will, and stay quiet until the decision comes out. can they go home? i guess they could but i believe they'll take the tact of leave them where they are for right now and wait until it's all over. i will say, i think it's a mistake, i hear what you're saying earlier about waiting until nighttime. there is going to be reaction one way or the other and the idea of doing it in the dark makes it much more difficult for law enforcement to identify and to surveil it and respond to it. >> that was my concern as well. danny, react to what we just heard from mark about this notion that the 12 members of the grand jury will simply be sequestered until an announcement is made. they won't necessarily be allowed to go home to their

families. >> our system does that to jurors all the time. they hold them against their will whether it's deliberating -- the grand jury at this point is accustomed to the courthouse telling them what they can and cannot do. i would imagine a few extra hours added on to this already very, very substantial intrusion on their time and their privacy and time away from work really, in the grand scheme of things, is not that much more to wait. but the courthouse has that -- remember, for a jury, the most important thing about them is secrecy. to preserve that, courts go to extreme lengths with good reason. the secrecy of the grand jury is what is to be preserved and they will do that at all costs. >> i want to play this little clip. this is benjamin crump, one of the attorneys from michael brown's family. he said this. listen. we don't have that clip. we're going to get that momentarily. jeffrey, let's talk about some

of the possible scenarios out there. i'm going to walk through what the possible charges could be and you give us your analysis of what would have to be -- what these grand jurors, 9 of them out of 12 would be. one would be first degree murder. is that likely or realistic? >> i true it doesn't have to be planned a day in advances it can be planned minutes or even seconds in advance, but that strikes me as if there is any charge at all the least likely possibility. >> what about second-degree murder? >> there you get to a lesser degree of intentionality, but still intentional murder. again, i think given the facts of this case, if there's going to be a charge, some sort of

manslaughter seems the most likely. >> what about that mark, voluntary, lesser charge off lunn tear manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter. explain to our viewers what those mean. >> sure the difference seen with voluntary manslaughter you do something that's voluntary you do it and do it not with the intentionality we were talking about but an act you do and it has that consequence. compare that to involuntary manslaughter a reckless maneuver something you do driving your car at 75 miles per hour through a school zone, so reckless if you kill somebody ice that type of crime. we also have to realize in the overall cover of this, what the grand jury will do the 12 of them who are sitting back are saying to themselves under the situation that existed at the moment that darren wilson reacted to it was he reasonable in his fear of great bodily injury or not and if he was then

there's no indictment, no true bill and they are done because he acted quote reasonably under the then existing circumstances. if they don't see that. >> go ahead finish your thought. >> if they don't see that then they start going down the list of potential crimes looking at what he may have done if he didn't have that perfect self-defense, imperfect self-defense. >> those basically, danny, would be the four potential charges, first degree murder, second-degree murder, voluntary manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter. is there anything else they could potentially come pup >> what they will be instruktd in is the law of self-defense which will be critical. we can talk about the charges and if you walk through the statute the jury will be instructed for example first degree murder everything except for involuntary manslaughter is some form of intentional act and no question the firing of the gun was intentional. it's important the instructions the jury receives because there's so much more than just the intentional pulling of a

trigger. they have to counter bail it, they have to confront it or reconcile with the law of self-defense. so that's another very important consideration the jury will have. i'll also add when it comes to voluntary, involuntary manslaughter that's a misnomer. those crimes should not have that similar sound. the distinction between first and second-degree murder is very slight. that deliberation element. if they are thinking first or second-degree murder which is statistically probably unlikely, they are going to have a tough decision. i think more likely if there's a high degree of recklessness we may see the lowest charge, the involuntary manslaughter or voluntary manslaughter. >> there's been some and i want mark and jeffrey to weigh in on this. missouri law is pretty specific, correct me if i'm wrong, danny. if a police officer believes

that that police officer was in danger for whatever reason, he potentially is allowed to go ahead and shoot and to until a suspect even if that suspect may be running away. is that right? >> there's a lot of law in this area. the supreme court case of tennessee versus garner suggests you can use force to apprehend a fleeing. this has been hotly contested. when i say a felon not convicted of a felony. if a police officer beliefs a felon is fleeing may and i stress may use deadly force to aprehen. there's a disagreement of force authorized by missouri law compared to against what the supreme court allows in terms o. police occupy a special place in our law. they are privileged to do what citizens can't do and that's

initiate force, initiate an arrest. because they have that privilege, they do in a way have special rules that don't apply to the rest of us. >> very quickly, what about that? >> it's very true. if you look at missouri law it says you can use force against a fleeing felon but as danny said that's been modified and all police officers know in missouri it's modified you can't do it just because they are fleeing. however when that person turns on you it's that traditional self-defense. you have to be in reasonable fear of great personal bodily injury. that's what they have to focus on with wilson's actions. >> guys stand by. we'll continue the breaking news coverage. once again a decision has been reached by the ferguson grand jury in clayton, missouri. much more of our breaking news coverage right after this. on me? do you have the coverage you need? open enrollment ends december 7th. don't put it off 'til later. now's the time to get on a path that could be right for you...

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it is breaking news. i'm don lemon in clayton, missouri near ferguson missouri. this is breaking news in the death of michael brown. the grand jury has reached a decision in the most controversial case in this country right now. u.s. and local law enforcement officials say an announcement is expected later today. as you know, that grand jury is made up of five women and seven

men. they have been deliberating over whether white officer darren wilson should be charged for shooting and killing michael brown jr. a black teenager who was unarmed. the nine white and three black grand jurors have had the ability to see the coverage surrounding this case, all the media coverage whether they are watching or not that's up to them. nine of the 12 must agree in order to indict officer wilson. we have a panel of legal minds to talk about this but first i want to get to evan perez who broke this. tell us what you know. >> we know the grand jury decision is expected to be announced by the state prosecutor later today. now this obviously has set in place a bunch of plans already in place warning to local officials to be ready for whatever the public reaction might be. we cho that there's a procedure in place. they will notify the judge. they have to notify the parties involved. michael brown's family will get some notification, n