and regulations about drones internationally as in combat situations as we're now using them. but one day other nations are going to have drones of their own. what if they start targeting americans here? it's going to be in america's interest to get some sort of legal protocols about how drones can be used for warfare purposes. at the moment, we're out there pretty far in front of anybody else using them, and i think they're going to grow in importance from the conversations because of the numbers who are being affected. here's what's interesting, poppy. the -- all the cia torture reports and everything about that were about 119 people who were detained by the cia over time, of whom 39 were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques. these harsh techniques, some call torture. many call torture with good reason. if you look at drones, we don't know the numbers precisely, because the government won't tell us, but the organizations out there, i've been counting up in pakistan, and there are as many as 2,500 to 3,500 people

who have been killed as terrorists, but there are as many as 400 or so who are civilians who have been killed. in other words, ten times as many civilians killed in pakistan, according to reports, as the number of people who were harshly interrogated by the cia. >> yeah. it's going to become an increasing conversation and also what legal sort of guidelines there are going to be, david. >> right. >> what the president, the administration may be legally held responsible for down the road. thank you for coming on this evening. we appreciate it. >> thank you. good to see you again. all right. breaking news into cnn. we are receiving word of a possible hostage situation in sydney. take a look at this video. this is video from just moments ago outside after the lindt chocolate shop in martin place, a pedestrian mall in sydney's central district. looks normal, like nothing is going on. what authorities are concerned about is what may be going on inside that shop. very little information at this

time including how many hostages there may be or how many people they may be holding if this is, indeed, a hostage situation. what i can tell you is we have spoken with the new south wales police media unit. here's what they tell us. "all we can confirm at this time is that there is a police operation taking place. we are recommending that no one goes near the area. we are trying to establish exactly what is happening." i can also tell you our affiliate there, news 7 in sydney, says there are two gunmen on the scene. we have not independently confirmed that yet. obviously we're working our sources on the ground there and will bring you the latest as soon as we have it out of sydney, australia. also this, sony pictures is starring in its own nightmare right now. the celebrated studio is in full damage control mode after hackers exposed embarrassing e-mails, salaries, secrets. and now they are threatening, the hackers, this $8 billion company with a so-called christmas gift that promises to put sony, "in its worst state."

joining me with insight on all of this, cnn national security analyst, bob baer, jamie detmer, a contributor for the "daily beast." thank you for being here. bob, let me begin with you. there's been so much talk about who the group is, the gop group of hackers, whether they're directly in cahoots, if you will, with the north korean government or independent of it. a lot of people tieing it to north korea. what's your take. >> first up, i've got to say i have an interest with this because i have two contracts with sony related to movies. once we're through that. this sounds like it's very sophisticated. it looks like it's revenge for this movie coming out. this -- it was done -- it was launched from multiple locations. sony has a very good cyber security. they saw this coming four, five months ago and they tried to improve their security and these guys are good, whoever they are. >> interesting we got this letter this afternoon, or "the

new york times" received a letter, cnn has not yet, from sony -- from the attorney for sony warning media outlets telling them, jamie, they should not report on some of this private information that has been leaked saying it is stolen information. again, cnn has not received that letter yet. are you surprised by that? >> no, not really. i mean, although i think it's an impossible request. once this information is out, even if mainstream organizations at the beginning of the report, it goes out on twitter, it goes out on facebook pages, then some of the new internet startups start reporting it and eventually the rest of the media have to follow. so i think sony should have been better guarding their secrets rather than making requests now for information not to be shared. >> bob, when you talk about information such as celebrity phone numbers, e-mails, et cetera, exposed, private embarrassing e-mails, this breach forces change, but this

is -- it is a fact, a security fact, it seems, that every single company is vulnerable to this now, no matter how good or how poor their walls are. >> anybody who goes on the internet, with a computer, is hack hackable. the only computers that are not are standalones. intelligence communities have figured out this long ago. they have to be separated physically. they in no way could ever access the internet because every computer is vulnerable. they're vulnerable in other ways, too. they send off emanations, tempest. if you have a secret to keep, don't put it on a computer, don't put it on a smartphone. write it on a piece of paper, whisper it in anybody's ear. nobody is safe. >> any big company is vulnerable to this. if you insert any big company name in its place, it would spell trouble for the companies, credibility, their stock.

online security experts say it is a guarantee hackers will hit the corporate world again and again. deborah feyerick did a fascin e fascinating piece on this. let's watch her piece and come back on the other side. >> reporter: cyber attacks against sony, target, home depot, jpmorgan chase, google, ebay, and every business sector, criminals stealing americans' personal data, credit card numbers, as well as corporate secrets. now imagine if similar cyber attacks made your lights go out or cut off your water supply. imagine if the critical infrastructure we rely on every single day simply shut down? the threat is not only very real, it's inevitable. >> it is only a matter of the when, not the if, that we are going to see something traumatic. >> reporter: admiral michael rogers heads the nsa and cyber command. >> we have seen individuals, groups, inside critical u.s. infrastructure. >> reporter: that's right. power plants, banking systems,

air traffic control, subways. all are vulnerable. >> years ago, what could have only been accomplished eed thra kinetic attack using missiles and bombs can be done with a few key strokes to wipe out a whole sector of our nation's electric grid not for days or weeks but potentially for months. >> reporter: according to the department of homeland security, adversaries from china, russia, and elsewhere are inside hundreds if not thousands of u.s. critical infrastructure computers. it's not just about getting infrastructure, it seems, but it's also the ability to control those sectors. >> this is something that we worry a lot about. >> reporter: cnn was given rare access to the dhs' heavily protected cyber security center. it's run by the dhs undersecretary suzanne spaulding who oversees private infrastructure experts scrutinizing realtime cyber breaches. >> the thing that keeps me awake

at night is knowing that there is the potential there for adversaries to get into those control systems. those systems that really run machinery, whether it's gates on dams or parts of the electric grid. >> reporter: isn't this an act of war? >> well, that's the million-dollar question. what the chinese are doing is really preparing the battlefield, if that day were to arrive, then they would have significant advantage. >> reporter: cyber security expert todd parker showed us just how easy it is to shut down something like a power grid. >> here we have the hacker's computer and the hacker has already broken into the electric utility and we have access to the electric utility's network. we reverse engineered the codes which are running, the operation system running on this device which is controlling the electric grid in this scenario. >> reporter: once inside the system, the attacker waits to strike and then watch as the lights go off in less than a

second. more than three quarters of the nation's critical infrastructure is privately owned. critics say those companies are not doing enough to safeguard their own systems. >> they don't want it coming out after their bottom line. >> reporter: this congressman says the threat is akin to knowing about the hijackers pre-9/11 and still doing nothing. >> we know that there's a glaring vulnerability and not ruling with all urgency to close it. >> reporter: deborah feyerick, cnn, washington. >> all right. let me bring back in my guest, bob, you're a national security expert. so it's more than clear that big companies from target, to home depot, to sony, are vulnerable these hacks, but realistically, how vulnerable are our power grids, our financial networks? >> poppy, absolutely the bank -- we've seen them hit banks before and they can. >> jp morgan. >> you can hack into a car and control the speed of the car. it's sort of whatever you can imagine, they can do. and the russian mafia is very good at this. the north koreans as we now

know. and we simply don't have the defenses in place to stop this sort of thing. >> so, jamie, given what bob -- >> i'll also add there, it's not just state actors. we know that al qaeda and isis have been looking at this for years. al qaeda chiefs have been talking about this being a potential other pearl harbor if they can get inside critical infrastructure computers in the united states and the systems. they've talked about trying to bring banks down. they'd like to do another 9/11, a financial crash, if you want. isis has a whole generation of new young computer programmers working with them. we've seen evidence on this on online activity and conversations going on. so it's not purely moscow and beijing we have to be concerned about, but other nonstate actors as well. >> jamie is absolutely right. >> go ahead, bob. >> they are very sophisticated. they beat nsa at their game and they've been very sophisticated in the fight for mosul.

using mobile wi-fi, defeating the national security agency. they can easily take this sort of technology and hit our banks and i think it's just a matter of time. jamie is absolutely right. >> yeah, and it begs the question, how are we going to fight this new war on that front? and how are we going to beef up our skills on that front to defeat it? guys, thank you very much. appreciate it. wish we had more time. we have breaking news into cnn. jamie, bob, thank you. this breaking news into cnn, we have nnew video of a possibl hostage situation all unfolding in sydney, australia. you're looking at video shot moments ago from the lindt chocolate shop in martin place, a big pedestrian mall downtown in sydney's central business district. it's a possible spot for tourists and also people going to work. you think, you know, monday morning there. there is very little information at this time. what we don't know, how many possible hostages are there? how many people could be holding them at this point in time? the new south wales police tell

us this. let me read you this quote. "all we can confirm at this time is that there is a police operation taking place. we are recommending that no one goes near that area. we're trying to establish exactly what is happening. we also have an affiliate, news 7 on the ground in sydney, they say there are two gunmen involved. and cnn cannot independently confirm that. we're getting new information coming from our affiliate. our affiliate on the ground telling us that around 9:44 a.m. local time, remember, it's monday morning there, a woman right there in sydney's central business district saw a man with a blue sports bag. she thought it was a gun. she called the police at that point in time. she said a man entered the lindt chocolate shop there, this is what the eyewitness is saying, and says this then turned into a

hostage situation. what we also know at this point in time, according to seven networks, cnn's affiliate on the ground in sydney, is that civil aviation is shut in terms of the airspace above sydney. shut down right now. and our bureau, the bureau for the affiliate, news 7 in sydney, is located right near that area. let me recap this for you. what you're looking at is video shot just moments ago in sydney, australia, where it is monday morning. this is from the central business district there. concerns about a possible hostage situation in the lindt chocolate shop there in a pedestrian mall that is heavily traveled. here's what we from our affiliate on the ground. around 9:44 a.m. local time, a woman say a man with a blue sports bag. she thought it might be a gun. she called the police. the man then entered that lindt chocolate shop. that is when we are told that it possibly turned into a hostage

situation. also as a precautionary method, we're told that the airspace above sydney has been temporarily closed. we are obviously monitoring this incredibly closely, working with our sources on the ground. as soon as we have more information, we will bring it to you right here. quick break. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ what does an apron have to do with car insurance? an apron is hard work.

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this is the microsoft cloud. all right. this breaking news into cnn. we have limited information. there's a possible hostage situation under way right now in sydney, in the central business district in sydney. what you're looking at is video shot just moments ago of a chocolate shop, outside a chocolate shop. the lindt chocolate shop at martin place. that is a mall, very busy mall, in sydney's central business district. again, not a lot of information. here's what we know at this point in time. according to our affiliate in sydney, australia's 7 network,

they're saying around 9:44 a.m. local time, remember, it is monday morning there, a woman saw a man with a blue sports bag. she thought it could possibly be a gun. she then told the police. we're also told from our affiliate that that man with the bag entered the lindt chocolate shop. that is when our affiliate is reporting that this turned into a possible hostage situation. we also can tell you that "reuters" at this hour is reporting the sydney operahouse has been evacuated as a precautionary measure and that the airspace, according to 7 network, the airspace above sydney has been temporarily shut due to this situation. we're working our sources on the ground. as soon as we have more information, we will bring it to you. again, a possible hostage situation taking place monday morning in a very businey part downtown sydney at a heavily trafficked pedestrian mall. those are shots up close of the windows. you cannot see much at all. as soon as we have more information, of course, we'll

bring it to you on cnn. also this, it's a country that offers public support to the u.s.-led efforts to fight terrorism, to fight isis. it also is linked to fund-raising for terrorist networks around the world. we're talking about qatar. tiny but very wealthy nation. and critics have said this is the most two-faced nation in the world. let me bring in our guests to talk about this, jamie dettmer who wrote a fascinating article about qatar for the "daily beast" and bob baer. the u.s. relies on qatar in a lot of ways, sort of a midpoint, a negotiator who helps us with situatio situations, an ally in the region. but you wrote an article with a lot of points that shows that qatar is trying to please all sin sides here. >> we have several allies in the gulf that play both sides. saudi arabia and kuwait, naming another two. the difference at the moment has been the saudi arabians seem to have made an effort to try to cut down on some of the terrorist funding that's coming

from that country or at least the administration has been making more progress. whereas qatar, they're still having major problems. for example, they set up a crime -- a financial crime unit several years ago, but they haven't mounted one prosecution. a number of the people who have been sanctioned by the u.n., the u.s., and the europeans, because there's evidence suggesting they have been channeling millions of dollars to al qaeda and other jihadist groups, are still free in qatar, have not been imprisoned. there's been a lot of pressure in recent weeks from the administration on the qataris. now we're beginning to get a ground swell in congress. last week about 24 lawmakers sent a letter to the treasury secretary asking for an update on what's happening to these figures that we know living in qatar, and we have allegations that they've been funding money. what's been happening to them and what further steps are the qataris going to make in order to try to cut down the funding

to jihadist groups? >> so, bob, this is a fine line that the u.s. has to make. it has to make the decision, what's most important, how critical do you believe, bob, qatar's support for the u.s., for fighting isis, et cetera, is? >> well, poppy, the problem is we've turned a blind eye to qatar. right from the beginning. khalid sheikh muhammad. the kataris hit him. they continue to fund all sides. they fund al jazeera, they fund incorrectly, at very least, issy. al qaeda groups all through the middle east and they're funding libya right now. the jihadi groups right there. there's not much we can do about it. they simply say they'll look into it. this is done privately. there's nothing they can do

about it. they're all playing all sides. like they're on a roulette wheel, putting a coin on every number. it's quite amazing and they are a serious problem and one day we're going to have to face it. >> well -- >> jamie, go ahead, jamie. >> there are things we can do. one of the arguments is we make it more politically painful for them, we change the entire political calculous that the elite in qatar have to make about this. a lot of this is reflecting divisions within the royal family. there are about 3,000 members of the royal family and they're split really between three groups. the modernizers around the former mayor and the current mayor, his son. what one could call machiavellians, pothe people wh go either way and strong conservative base to the family as well. what we're seeing them playing with -- seeing the religious conservatives carrying on, encouraging the funding of jihadist groups. >> bob, do you think the u.s. policy is going to change toward qatar? do you think we're going to see any dramatic change right now, especially given, being in the

midst of this war on terror and fighting isis? >> no, we're going to see the gulf arabs play a difficult game. what they're really worried about is iran, in particularly related to iraq. they see the iranians taking over iraq. they're going to counter it to fund isis-connected groups, tribal groups in anbar province or even al qaeda. there's no way to trace this money. it's just -- it goes through channels, we don't even begin to understand. >> wow. >> we're not willing to really put pressure on riyadh and riyadh still funds the fundamentalist groups and doha. >> the money behind it critically important. an article in the "daily beast." check it out on "daily beast." thank you, both. appreciate it. we're going to take a quick break anyone we'then we'll dock the latest on the breaking news out of sydney, australia. we're also going to bring you a cnn investigation into armed security guards.

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this breaking news just into cnn. this is all unfolding in sydney, australia. new details on a possible hostage situation at a mall in the central business district in sydney. what we can tell you is that the government has closed the airspace above sydney. that is coming from our affiliate, channel 7 network. they've done this out of precaution to be very cautious. here's what we know at this

hour. the lindt chocolate shop right now is where the focus is. that is the shop in the mall here. and according to our affiliate, 7 network there on the ground in sydney, around 9:44 a.m. local time, a woman there saw a man with a blue bag carrying it. she thought there might be a gun inside. she told the police. that's when our affiliate says the man entered the lindt chocolate shop and turned into a possible hostage situation. as i said, the airspace above sydney is closed. i can also tell you that "reuters" is reporting at this hour the sydney opera house has been evacuated. to give you a sense of where that is, the sydney opera house is a four-minute walk, about 1.3 kilometers from this mall. martin place. so it's not far. they have evacuated the sydney opera house. that iconic structure. according to "reuters." i can tell you our affiliate on the ground, news 7, is tweeting this. "police ordered everyone at the 7 news sydney newsroom to

evacuate as a siege situation unfolds in martin place." we know that newsroom is also very close to the mall where this is all happening. again, let me bring up that video for you to show you, shot just moments ago there outside the mall. this all unfolding on a busy monday morning in the central business district of sydney. we're keeping a very close eye on this. the statement from the new south wales police, what they're saying at this time "all we can confirm is there's a police operation taking place. we recommend that no one goes near the area as we're trying to establish exactly what happened." as soon as we have more information into cnn, we will bring it you. now let's move on to this. we're talking a lot about private armed security guards. they're everywhere. see them everywhere. shopping malls, sporting events, patrolling neighborshoods. unlike police officers, the training they government, government oversight, it's spotty at best. this leads sometimes to strategy as our drew griffin found out in this exclusive report he did

with the center for investigative reporting. >> reporter: this is former security guard joshua kosatschenko taking a smoking break outside the private security company where he works in suburban phoenix. he's not carrying a gun now, but 5 1/2 years ago, he was armed and licensed to carry by arizona's department of public safety. that turned out to be a dangerous breakdown in the system. an investigation by cnn and center for investigative reporting found licensing requirements so varied and in some states so lax it can become harder to become a manicurist than an armed security guard. >> i woke up and i had tubes running down my throat. >> reporter: daniel tarango today is in a wheelchair, paralyzed after being shot through his car window over stolen food. the person who shot and nearly

killed him was a then 19-year-old security guard, joshua kosatschenko who should have never been allowed to carry a gun. hey, joshua. drew griffin with cnn. how are you? we've been trying to get in touch with you. we're doing a story on security guards. how -- how did you become an armed security guard? how was that possible? >> i'd rather not comment, sir. >> reporter: do you think that you should be placed in a position where i believe you're training security guards now? >> no comment. >> reporter: it was shortly before 2:00 in the morning on june 3rd, 2009. at this convenience store in tucson. tarango was 18 years old. kosatschenko was hired as a security guard watching for shoplifters. >> we just going do get some food and leave and wasn't going to be that big of a deal. >> reporter: tarango says he waits outside in his car as his friends went in to steal food and in the next few moments,

kosatschenko and a second security guard gave chase, a scuffle broke out. they ran. tarango threw the car in reverse. kosatschenko opened fire. >> i just heard -- when i heared gunfire, i looked back and felt the glass shatter and felt a slight push like somebody had pushed me over. >> reporter: tarango admits he should have never been there. it turns out kosatschenko should not have been working as an arounded guard there, either. he had a criminal record as a juvenile. in fact, he had several run-ins with the juvenile system. when he was 13 he pled guilty to two counts of aggravated assault. he was deemed a felon and a juvenile delinquent. the court placed him on probation and made him a prohibited possessor. meaning he lost his right to bear arms at least until he turned 30. but even with all that information, we discovered the arizona department of public

safety never checked his record. captain steve entemen oversees licensing for armed guards. this guy's juvenile records apparently weren't checked, so where was the breakdown? >> because arizona does not require juvenile records to be reported, in this particular instance it was an adjudicated record as opposed to a conviction. it does not show he had any record whatsoever. >> certainly the check could have gone beyond that, you could look at his juvenile records. >> we could look at his juvenile records had he disclosed he had that in his background. >> so as long as he lies on his application, he basically hides his entire juvenile record? >> in this particular case, yes. >> reporter: the state didn't even need his juvenile record. since kosakschenko is pribted from carrying a gun, that would have shown up in a federal law enforcement database, but arizona didn't check it. the state of arizona may be a poster child for what's wrong with the nation's lack of

regulation for the armed security guard industry. kosakschenko's armed guard training consisted of 16 hours, only 4 of which took place at a gun range. arizona is 1 of 27 states that doesn't check if someone applying to become an armed guard is prohibited from possessing a gun. the company that hired joshua kosatschenko refused to talk to cnn as did kosatschenko, himself. drew griffin with cnn. >> please leave the building. we don't want to be on film. >> reporter: okay. in a court deposition he claims he was fully justified in shooting the fleeing shoplifters because his job was to stop them. did you think it was smart to chase after him into the parking lot? >> wouldn't necessarily say it was smart or not smart. i would say that it's a danger associated with the job. >> reporter: and the job was to

arrest snack food shoplifters? >> shoplifters for anything, period. >> reporter: steve is a lobbyist and general counsel for the national association of security companies. we met up with him at the industry's annual convention earlier this year where he continues to push for fbi background checks for anyone who wants to be an armed guard. in nine states, even an fbi background check is not required. >> the public, they look to security officers in emergency situations. we want to make sure that this guy is properly vetted and is not going to be a problem, himself. >> reporter: that's not going to be easy. in the last four years, there have been no fewer than a dozen bills introduced in state legislatures and in congress trying to control, license, or regulate who can become a security guard. of those, most have failed. >> get down on the ground. >> reporter: even after the shooting of daniel tarango,

arizona did little to change its licensing requirements. there is this additional box which relies on applicants to disclose or check if they are a prohibited possessor. legally barred from owning a gun. but arizona still doesn't check that federal database when someone applies to be an armed guard. >> if they're not truthful with us, we can't control if the person is untruthful for us. >> reporter: as for kosatschenko, after the shooting he was arrested for attempted murder but only indicted and convicted for violating the law that banned him from possessing a gun. he served probation. he now works, according to his linkedin page, as a corporate trainer and hiring manager with the very same security company he worked for the night he shot and nearly killed daniel tarango. do you think that the state of arizona should have given you a license to be an armed guard when you got -- >> no comment, sir. >> reporter: no comment at all? >> no comment.

>> all right. thanks to drew griffin for that. now the breaking news out of sydney, australia. there's a possible hos saj situation unfolding in a very busy central business district in sydney at a mall there. called martin place. this is all happening inside the lindt chocolate shop. you obviously have authorities there fully armed outside monitoring this situation. we are being told that at least 13 hostages may be inside. how did this unfold? according to our affiliate, 7 network in sydney, they say around 9:44 a.m. local time, remember, it is a busy monday morning there in sydney, a woman saw a man with a blue sports bag. she thought it might be a gun so she told blispolice. the man entered the lindt chocolate shop and turned into a possible hostage situation. cnn is working our sources to

confirm this as well. as a precaution, a few things has happened. "roite e "reuters" is reporting the sydney opera house has been evacuated. the sydney opera house is a four-minute walk from this busy mall. about 1.3 kilometers. nearby. also, the 7 news sydney news network, our affiliate on the ground, is located very close to this mall. they have tweeted that the police have ordered all of them to evacuate. they tweet, "police have ordered everyone in the 7 news sydney newsroom to evacuate as a seize situation unfolds in martin place." those are closeup shots from moments ago of the windows there, but really you can't make out anything. we're going to take a quick break. we're going to bring back on the other side with a live report from a reporter on the ground there in sydney. stay with us. (vo) nourished.

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all right. as we continue to follow the breaking news out of sydney, austral australia, about a possible hostage situation in sydney's downtown central business district at a mall there with at least 13 hos stages inside, i wt to join our affiliate 7 network, their live coverage on the ground there. listen in. >> they're responding to somebody approached them, befriended them, one-on-one, may have happened online, but it happens offline. frankly they've been groomed

like a pedophile grooms their victim. that means you have older si ee individuals who have some degree of charisma, influence of the young. it's really a peer network. it's also, of course, once they get into it, this narrative of fighting a cosmic battle. this battle, islamic state fighting, portrayed as a great armageddon conflict of the end of time. so the last jihad. the great jihad. and the coalition against them including -- presented as being crusader forces. it's an about imagery. it starts with the social network, with the peer pressure. >> we're seeing some amateur footage now of the events immediately after this siege took place. obviously some mobile phone footage. if you're just joining us, at 9:44 a.m., a gunman was seen with a blue sports bag walking into, with a gun inside of it, walking into the lindt chocolate shop in martin place in sydney. >> all right. it looks like we lost our feed there. we'll try to get it back.

that was the live broadcast of our affiliate on the ground there, 7 network in sydney, australia. let me recap for you. it is monday morning in sydney, australia, and you're looking at images of police standing outside of martin place. that is a very busy heavily trafficked mall in the middle of sydney's central business district. what we know is that there is a possible hostage situation there. we're being told that there are at least 13 possible hostages inside. the other details that we have, as we try to confirm all of this for you, coming from our affiliate 7 network, is that this morning around 9:44 a.m. local time, there was a woman, saw a man with a blue sports bag, thought a gun may be inside, called the police. this man then enters that chocolate shop. you're looking at the exterior shot a little while ago before all the police arrived. entered it. this is when it turned into a possible hostage situation. as a precautionary method, we know that they have evacuated the sydney opera house. that is about a four-minute

walk. so, very close to this mall. that has been evacuated. the airspace above sydney has been closed temporarily as a precaution. we also know that 7 news network, that is our affiliate on the ground, their newsroom has been evacuated by police as this all unfolds. guys, are we able to dip back into that live coverage from 7 network? all right. we can't get that at this point in time. we are trying. we're also working to get you a live report from the ground there in sydney. as soon as we have it. obviously, there are a lot of concerns but we want to take this very slowly, as we have not yet confirmed at cnn that this is, indeed, a hostage situation. what we can tell you, though, is what the new south wales police media wruunit is saying. "all we can confirm at this time is there is a police operation taking place at martin place in sydney's central business district. we are recommending that no one goes near the area. we're trying to establish exactly what has happened."

those immamgimages, not live im images from moments ago there outside of that busy mall in the middle of sydney's business district. this and unfolding on a monday morning there, again, we are being told by our affiliate there are at least 13 potential hostages inside. we're going to take a quick break. we'll be back with more breaking news right after that.

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. we are continuing to monitor a possible hostage situation unfolding at this moment in sydney, australia, in the central business district at a heavily trafficked mall called martin place. what we know at this hour, there are 13 potential hostages inside. that is coming from our affiliate on the ground there, 7 network. cnn has not yet independently confirmed that. what i can read you now just in to cnn is a statement from australian prime minister tony abbott. it reads in full "the police are currently responding to a reported hostage-taking incident in martin place in sydney. i have spoken with mike baird and have offered him support. this is obviously a deeply concerning incident but all australians should be reassured that our law enforcement and

security agencies are well-trained and equipped and responding in a thorough and professional manner. we will provide regular updates as further information becomes available. that coming from australian prime minister tony abbott, saying that they are monitoring the situation, that they are prepared to deal with it. again, our affiliate on the ground there in sydney saying at least 13 hostages are potentially inside. we will bring you the latest on this as soon as we have it. i want to turn to other news as we continue to gather our resources on the ground there in sydney. if you missed the premier of an extraordinary film, "dinosaur 13," it's at 9:00 eastern right here on cnn. it follows the unbelievable tale of sue, the t-rex and her discovery and how it led to a serious federal charge against many who found her as you'll see from this clip in the film. >> once you start to understand

the indictments, this is what they said. pretend we're in wyoming and we're standing in the middle of the prairie and let's assume that the fence is in the right place. you're standing on this side of the fence. the government says, right over here, there is a fabulous fossil and they are saying that pete and neil and bob and whoever was out there would go, step over the fence, wrongly knowingly pick up the fossil that they are not supposed to pick up, carry it back over the fence and put it in their car. when they drive from wyoming to south dakota, they have conducted an illegal act, transportation of stolen property. they get back to the institute, they would make a phone call, send a fax maybe to japan and say, we found the thing that you were looking for. do you want to buy it? well, that's wire fraud. and then if the japanese museum were to purchase that fossil and the guys would put that money in the bank, that's money

laundering. so basically the guys were called conspirators to intentionally steal things and sell them illegally. >> joining me is the director of the movie. it's a fascinating movie. i enjoyed it so, so much. let me again with the controversy of who pete larson ultimately went to jail and why those that found sue were jailed for this. because some groups have come out since it aired and blasted the film and said it doesn't uncover the whole truth. you have a group of paleontologists saying this is biased and one-sided. what's your response to that? >> we stand behind the facts. everything was vetted and triple checked. we had the lead prosecutor who cooperated with us as well as the national park service, other

elements and the government that participated in the events in the film. but i would say one group in particular has issued a press release. >> right. we have it right here. >> and this is the same group that, you know, they sent two letters during the custody battle and this was a very -- it was only two key figures within the organization that sent that and it was a very vocal minority and a response back then, almost 20 years ago, you had the president of the organization quit and we also have four members of that society that are in our film that, you know, are very much in line with, you know, the facts that are played out in the film. >> and being look, even more of a reason to watch this film because it is so -- there is so much passion on both sides about this, about where -- i got to spend thursday at the chicago field museum. we might have a photo of it with a lot of school kids visiting sue.

ultimately, you know, they lose this battle for sue to the federal government. pete larson, the lead paleontogist goes to jail and spent a little bit of time in jail for this. they would like to have sue in south dakota where she was found but at least the science gets to be done on the field museum. >> it's a great resource. it's an amazing institution. they've been doing a fantastic job with sue there. i think the way in which they dealt with the black hills institute over the years has been questionable, in my personal opinion. but i think that's going to change and i think it's great that she's in a place that she's loved, taken care of, and millions of people get to see her. >> why did you decide to tell this story? i didn't know the backstory of sue, the largest t-rex ever found in the history of the world. >> i wanted there to be a better audience there.

had been so little written in the media about it and i wanted people to enjoy the appeal that i had. >> tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on cnn. great work. we have a lot of breaking news for you out of sydney, australia. this possible hostage situation unfolding there. we're going to take a quick break and we'll be back with that at the top of the hour. the holiday season is here, which means it's time for the volkswagen sign-then-drive event. for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a german-engineered volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta... and the 2015 motor trend car of the year all-new golf. if you're wishing for a new volkswagen this season... just about all you need is a finely tuned... pen. get zero due at signing,

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all right. breaking news out of sydney, australia, where there's a possible hostage situation unfolding. i have a statement from australia's prime minister on the situation that's taking place at the chocolate shop in martin place. "new south wales police and the australia police are responding to a current hostage-taking incident in martin mall in sydney. that is coming from the prime minister as they keep an eye on this. 7 news network indicates that there are 13 hostages being held inside. let me show you video from moments ago outside of that chocolate shop where the authorities are there monitoring the situation. we're told around 9:44 a.m., this is