very different than jackie's. that's a special "outfront" investigation tomorrow. don't miss it on the ground from uva. set your dvr to watch us anytime. "ac 360" begins right now. good evening. thanks for joining us. the siege is over in sydney, australia. the questions about what led a man to take hostages and go out in a globally televised gun battle that left two people dead. tonight, we tackle the questions head on and look at the serious implications. moments ago, i spoke with sidy y sydney's mayor. >> our city is a socially diverse, inclusive city. we pride ourselves on that and we very strongly believe this terrible incident doesn't change who we are and the way we feel about our city. >> we'll have more of that

interview coming up. we got word on the identity of a woman killed today. katrina dawson was a mother of three. terribly sad. [ gunfire ] >> reporter: the end of a nearly 17-hour siege that left a lone gunman and two hostages dead. four other hostages and one police officer in the hospital and the city gripped by fear. [ gunfire ] it all began around 9:45 a.m. monday morning, sydney time. the gunman takes over a cafe with 17 people inside. in minutes, hundreds of police officers, including snipers surround the building. it's in the heart of sydney's bustling business district during one of the busiest weeks of the year. a gunman self-proclaimed muslim cleric born in iran.

hostages are seen raising a black flag with arabic writing saying there is no god but god and mohammad is the god of god. just after 4:00 p.m., six and a half hours into the siege, a side door flies open and two men run for safety, followed by another man running out of a different door. 90 minutes later, another hostage, this time, an employee runs into the arms of law enforcement. she's followed immediately by another employee. they could see the gunman inside the cafe. >> the gunman got agitated as he realized those five got out. he started screaming orders at the people inside. the hostages remained behind extremely agitated. >> reporter: 12 hostages left inside. they are forced to record video

of the demands, including the demand to talk to the prime minister, tony abbott. at 9:00 the lights are switched off. law enforcement puts on night goggles. 16 hours since the siege began, the gunman splits the hostages into two groups on opposite sides of the room. one group is able to get out, running toward police officers. this man is forced to the ground for a search by police. at around 2:28 a.m. sydney time, law enforcement is forced to spring into action. [ gunfire ] >> there was a number of gunshots that were heard, which caused officers to go in. inside the premises, led them to the police chief now was the time to deploy and they did. >> reporter: australian special forces and police storm the cafe from two directions using stun grenades and guns raised. >> they made the call.

if they didn't enter, there would have been more lives lost. >> reporter: when the smoke clears, the gunman is dead along with two hostages and a siege of nearly 17 hours is finally over. this is, as you might imagine, a story that keeps evolving as we learn about the hosz taj taker. there's a lot we don't know about the final minutes. for the latest, let's go to sydney. we have the latest. this man, do we have a clearer picture of his history, why he did this? >> reporter: yeah, anderson, what we don't know his motivations. we are learning disturbing facts about him and he never should have been free on the streets. he was out on bail for two very serious and separate matters. one for 40 counts of sexual assaults involving seven victims, the other of accessory of murder with his ex-wife.

she was found dead in her apartment in sydney last year. this is a man who also wrote horrific, deplorable letters to the families of dead australian soldiers. so, people now wondering, why was he out on bail? why was this man free on the streets in sydney. he was known to the islamic community, clearly a threat. anderson? >> the death of the two hostages. is it clear how they were killed? >> reporter: no, it's not. police held a press conference earlier and they did not reveal those details. all they said is they heard gunshots after 2:00 a.m. this morning. that is when they decided to storm the cafe. there are local reports that the 34-year-old man who was killed, perhaps he had tried to struggle with the gunman and that is what

led to the commandos and to police storming the cafe. >> in australia, they raised their terror level to high in september. was that -- there were a number of arrests that were made, was that in relation to -- i mean, do we know why the alert was raised? >> reporter: yeah, look, basically because australia joined the war against isis. the united states called for ally countries to join the fight, australia was one of the first. there are hundreds of australian soldiers training the kurdish and iraqi forces. they are part of the air campaign. the other thing we need to note is there are at least 100 australian citizens who joined the fight with isis. they have gone and joined this warped barbaric cause to create this. that's what they know of.

the citizens there, let alone the supporters here in australia. we should note, it is a minority of australians who support isis. certainly, there have been a number of terror raids up and down the east coast of australia over the past couple months. as a result, australia has become a target. >> preerappreciate the update. chris is with us and john than, ceo of the kri sis management. chris, let me start with you. take us inside the conversation that authorities would have with a hostage taker like this. for awhile, they could not get contact with him. then they were able to. how do you go about that conversation with someone who clearly has some sort of ideological or religious or

political motivation here. >> well, hostage negotiators use cognitive empathy or sociopath empathy. having nothing to do with their personal point of view, but able to see it through their eyes. that is going to get the conversation started. for them to be surprised the hostage negotiator can understand. it catches people off guard. it's their job to get a dialogue going and get them out of there without being on a killing journey he was on. >> are you surprised it went on for 16 hours? >> usually, an alone gunman siege like this, once they get past 12 hours, it's difficult for an individual to keep going. there's too much stress, they get tired. i was surprised it did last 16 hours and more than likely, it wasn't going to see the sunrise. he wouldn't have been able to

keep it up that long. the amount of time it took, as far as one individual can take a siege like this. >> in terms of tack tall response, we were talking about this before we went on air. in school shootings, s.w.a.t. believes you hang back. now there's the belief, you go in as fast as you can. clearly, 16 hours, the tactical issues were holding back and trying to gain as much information as they can. not to second guess what happened, but god forbid it happens again, do you think that is going to be looked at? >> i think we have a good, diverse example of hostage scenarios today because we have one going on in philly as we speak and this one overseas. the one in philly appears to be a guy held up in a house. this was a person who showed a history of being a part of having the belief of a radical,

islamic group. we have proof in a hostage situation, it's probably not going to end well. the tactic that is are going to be employed, i think we are going to have to look into the evolution of this. just like columbine showed us, sometimes staying back and having negotiations may not, in the end, give us that period where we need to go in and take the guy down. it sounds like, if the case is there was an individual that grabbed the guy and he got killed, god bless that guy. we may not be able to wait that long, those 16 hours for that to happen. >> it's interesting because in the wake of 9/11 and the actions of passengers on board united flight -- >> it's a perfect example. >> they took matters into their own hands and saved countless lives had the plane hit the intended target. i'm wondering, as these things, you know, continue to happen, if people are going to start to look at this differently, if

they are being held by a gunman like this. >> people should. i think what happened on 9/11, everybody woke up that morning in the back of their mind knowing, if anything happens on a plane, keep your mouth shut, stay calm and it will land somewhere. as 9/11 showed that change and the people on the last plane, it took them about an hour to realize this is not going to end well. american people need to realize, if that happens here and it's by these select groups, we have already seen a beheading. they called it workplace violence. i called it an act of terrorism in oklahoma. you saw a police officer get hit in the head with a hatchet. people are going to have to realize, it's not a coke and smile or coffee and smile. i may get coffee and have to jump on somebody with a gun. >> chris, when you are dealing with somebody who is willing to die, who, perhaps embraces the idea of death, from, again, from a negotiator's standpoint,

that's terrifying, i imagine. >> there's two things. there's a difference between willing to die and wanting to die. tough separate that out. they may be willing to die, but may be able to convince them dying another day is a better idea. if there's a predetermined killing journey, if the hostage taker has a specific orchestrated event in mind, he may have started on that at 2:00 in the morning when he separated the hostages. the hostage takers invision, then it's your job, as a negotiator, combined with the s.w.a.t. team to intervene. >> that's an incredible term, the killing journey. that's what you think of as a negotiator. >> right. what have they invisioned in advance? i can promise you he surveilled the location a number of times. writings of what was going to happen and what he was thinking

about. he invisioned how it was going to end in advance chl. you have to try to communicate with him and find out where you can intervene. >> jonathan, we have seen mumbai attacks in multiple locations taking over a hotel and other facilities and shut down the city of mumbai for several days. this seems to be the wave of the future, given social media and one individual can take over even on social media, do you believe we are going to see more and more of this? >> i do and i think the possibility of these types of attacks happening all over is growing. i think chris who, this is a good example of the expertise in our training. the way chris can break this down and look at the different levels of the commitment by the actual bad guy, you have to understand the people we are basically at war with, a lot of

them have been trained to this level. they think like this as well, but their dedication to death is sometimes all of nothing. if you had five people in five different cities doing the same attack, it would cripple this country. i'll tell you this, the day, the second that a weapon, that a gun was invented, will be -- it was from that point forward, there will always be guns in the hands of bad people. >> what's interesting is this person doesn't have a have a direct link with isis. they could have watched videos, they have ideas in their head and isis and other groups want individuals like this to do this. they are actively encouraging this on a global scale. >> they realize you can't crash planes into buildings every day. there's a lot of planning and organization going into that. tough convince somebody to get a gun and walk into a coffee shop.

>> appreciate it. appreciate your expertise. coming up, looking at who the gunman was, what we know about him, his ideology and whether he's a pack of lone wolves or if that term applies in something like this. people transforming themselveses. new york goes on alerlt. more on that when we continue.

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president obama spoke to troops back home and made a promise. listen. >> now this campaign in iraq will take time. make no mistake, our coalition isn't going to degrade this barbaric terrorist organization, we are going to destroy it. >> fighting isis means more than going after members on the battlefield. it means fighting the idea of isis and individuals around the world including the sydney gunman. he pledged allegiance to them. he posted claims he was denied access to his children, which may not be surprising since he was facing accessory to murder charges in the killing of his ex-wife including multiple counts of sex abuse. he was a fixture in sydney and self-styled muslim cleric and

peace activist. last year, he was convicted of posting harassing letters to families killed in afghanistan. now this, a complicated picture. obviously a disturbed individual. it could be a psychopathology in search of a cause. if you know people to become so radicalized is my next guest. he's contributor to the daily beast. good to see you. law enforcement is saying this type of lone wolf attack is the ones they are most concerned with. do you believe it's a mistake to call this guy a lone wolf? >> i do think it's a mistake. i use the term self-starter. >> a self-starter? >> yes. it doesn't describe it to use the term lone wolf. president obama, in the speech said we want to destroy the

terrorist organization known as isil. we took that approach with al qaeda. we took out their leaders and bin laden himself. we saw a ma tastization. people are inspired by the idea zs, the leaders, symbols and narratives. the iconology behind this. the itemization of terrorism, we witness that across the world whether in canada, new york or australia and across europe, there's a belgium attack in a jewish museum. people are self-starting, but they are inspired by a phenomenon. the real challenge is to make it unappealing to them. that's a long-term challenge. it's long-term work. we have to address the ideas. for muslims to sympathize with

creating this and the theocracy in muslim countries and calling it this is something we have to make very unpopular. it's a challenge at the moment. >> you have always said it's not enough for muslim's to simply say, look, i don't believe in beheading hostages. you say people have to go further than that. >> yes. there was a twitter campaign off the back of this attack. australian muslims are saying to fellow muslim's, don't worry, we will ride and protect you. it's a commendable thing. i often ask, how many -- if we expect muslims to speak out against anti-muslim bigotry, how many times do we see muslims starting such hashtags to say we condemn jihadist terrorism? we find many of them say i want

nothing to do with it. why should i condemn it? we need to step up to our responsibilities. we have to condemn forms of bigotry and that includes islamists terrorism as well. >> his former attorney says this is a random individual not acting in concert with anyone calling him a damaged individual whose done something outrageous. do you think it's dangerous to say this is a one-off thing? >> absolutely. it's very dangerous. we have the school shootings in america as a phenomena. there is a difference here. there's a bunch of iconography that inspires multiple one offs. at what stage do they stop becoming one offs and we realize

what we are dealing with. what i fear is that we have simply added to the dangers that we are desperately trying to prepare for. one is al qaeda proper, the old jihadism are busy preparing a spectacular, large-scale attack. we know from intelligence based in syria have been busy preparing for a long time a major attack. they feel their lead in the global jihadism has been overtaken. on the other hand, isil and the itemization of terrorism. now we have this funny situation we don't know what to expect or when. unfortunately, we are going to see more such attacks across europe and north america. it's very bad news for everyone, i'm afraid. >> isis themselves issued a statement asking for muslim's to kill nationals amongst others.

you have no doubt we are going to see more of this in other places around the world? it only takes, again, it doesn't take a well trained individual with an international connection. it can be a self-starter. >> yes. i use that word because it would imply they weren't in touch with others. we know from the individual this man was shot dead in the hostage siege. he was had calized. they were in touch with each other. the australian police conducted the raids. they protested the australian police react saying it was heavy handed and overreaction. now we have this attack. all of us have to start getting real with this problem, recognizing there is, indeed, a challenge of these often, you know, pathological individuals

who use this ideology as an excuse to live out their fantasies. we all have to bind together and stop challenging this and make the ideology the stuff of yesterday. >> great to have you on. new yorkers and everyone here for the holiday saw a beefed up police presence in direct response to what happened in sydney. >> you saw, today, a lot of intelligence driven strategically based high profile police coverage, including the heavily armed teams, which deployed to a number of locations including the office for australia and other commonwealth countries. in addition, they laid out the lengths toward the nypd gathering intelligence. the department is a major player in that regard. deborah feyerick joins us with

more. what about the attacks we are seeing. >> reporter: a dozen ranking officers to overseas. they are making their way toward sydney. it's important for the nypd to determine if there's any connection to the jihadi's in the united states. the first thing is to make sure there's no intelligence that suggests he knew somebody here, had been in touch with somebody here. it's important to determine that from their perspective working with federal and local law enforcement. another reason is they want to look at how this played out. that is also key. keep in mind, the lindt coffee store, there are many in new york city. learning what the response was, how it played out over the course of time and what it meant to people inside the shop and

the outside trying to get in. how long they staged. that's critical as well to know how to gauge their response. it was a success in the fact that the 17 people, 15 got out alive. but, they did lose two people. so, that's critical. they want to make sure that if something like this does happen, they are prepared and their response is the appropriate response, especially, anderson, here at christmas time when there are so many tourists and the stores are packed with people. these guys target these soft targets. that's important as well. soft targets like a mall or museum, they don't have the kind of protection as a place that is better secured. anderson? >> appreciate the update. you can find out more on cnn.com. just ahead, a former u.s. marine is the focus of a manhunt in pennsylvania. he's suspected of killing six people, he's considered armed and dangerous. it is a serious situation. details ahead. ♪ nineteen years ago, we thought, "wow, how is there no way to tell the good from the bad?"

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breaking news. a manhunt is under way in montgomery, pennsylvania. this man is 35 years old, bradley william stone. he's suspected of killing people this morning northwest of philadelphia. he is armed and dangerous. they are asking anyone with information on his whereabouts to call 911. >> there's new police activity we are hearing about at this hour. i'll tell you more in a moment. first, as you said, the six victims all dead, including a teenager and another teen

seriously wounded, all related to the shooter. he spares his own two children. the rampage begins at 3:30 in the morning. authorities say here is the path the suspect, bradley stone takes. 3:30 a.m., he kills three people, his ex-wife's sister, her husband and their 14-year-old daughter. their 17-year-old son is seriously wounded. an hour later, he goes to a second home, targeting his former mother-in-law and her elderly mom. a half hour later, he allegedly kills his ex-wife. he takes his daughters from the murder scene. a neighbor sees him leave. the two girls are in pjs screaming momma, no. he drops them off 20 miles away. the girls are safe. that's the last time they have seen him. they have found his car and cell phone. it's unclear how he's getting around. >> what do we know about him, in

particular? >> he is 35 years old, an ex-marine reservist. he served in iraq for three months. he forecasted the weather for troops. he was a meteorologist. it's unclear what he's doing lately. he uses a cane or walker. in court papers, he calls himself permanently disabled. the latest we are hearing is activity in doylestown. someone wearing camouflage, what is what he was wearing at the time, attempting to carjack a vehicle with a knife. >> any possible motive? >> a source of mine says it appears to be domestic. there was a custody battle going on. why kill so many? he did spare his own children, thank goodness. >> horrible scene. we are going to be on until 10:00. we will bring you updates. let's get the latest in other stories.

susan hendricks has it has 360 news bulletin. families of sandy hook victims filed a wrongful death suit. it's been a year since they were gunned down. the lawsuit targets the maker and sellers of the bushmaster ar-15 rifle, the gun used on that day. president obama plans to sign the $1.1 trillion spending bill that congress pass ed over the weekend. a home security camera caught a real-life grinch red handed stealing christmas presents from a minnesota family's home. he grabbed three gifts. the video has been viewed more than 200,000 times on facebook. they have several leads. anderson, no one has been arrested thus far. hopefully that video sheds light.

>> someone must recognize him. new questions about how the prosecution presented the michael brown shooting case to the grand jury. they were called to testify. bill cosby's wife breaks her silence tonight and speaks out about her husband's allegations. take a closer look at your fidelity green line and you'll see just how much it has to offer, especially if you're thinking of moving an old 401(k) to a fidelity ira. it gives you a wide range of investment options... and the free help you need to make sure your investments fit your goals -- and what you're really investing for. tap into the full power of your fidelity green line. call today and we'll make it easy to move that old 401(k) to a fidelity rollover ira.

tonight, new questions about the evidence presented to the grand jury that decided not to indict the officer in the shooting of michael brown. documents were left out. cnn has been pouring over the information. the prosecutors presented witnesses whose accounts had little to zero credibility. one witness turns out to have been consistent all along. doesn't mean accurate, but he was consistent. we have the report. >> reporter: more than two weeks after a st. louis county grand jury did not indict officer darren wilson in the killing of michael brown, new revelations about the evidence that drove their decision. witnesses admitted to lying. >> some witnesses admitted they

didn't see the shooting or only part of the shooting. >> reporter: others changed their story. the grand jury had to figure out who and what to believe. >> this is demonstrating to the citizens what people in the justice system have known for a long time. the eyewitness testimony that data is showing is inherently, at best, unreliable. at worst, completely unreliable. >> reporter: thousands of papers turn up testimony with little to no credibility. witness 22, whose testimony was damaging to officer wilson admitted she lied when pressed by investigators. telling the grand jury, quote, i felt like i wanted to be part of something. i didn't see what i told the fbi. testimony from 35 might have led to an indictment quoting michael brown was quote, on his knees

when shot in the head, but it wasn't true. the witness admits to making that story up. in one change, the prosecutor asked, are you telling us the only thing that is true about all your statements before this is that you saw that police officer shoot him at point-blank range? the answer, yes. it happened on both sides. witness 40 supported wilson's version of what happened. prosecutors revealed she posted a racist comment online on the day of the shooting that read, quote, they need to kill the expletive expletive. itis like an ape fest. when questioned about what she allegedly saw, she admitted to having gathered details from news reports. >> we took off running. >> reporter: dorian johnson remained consistent. he was with brown at the time of the shooting. he told a nearly identical hands up version of what happened.

>> he shot again and once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and put his hands in the air and started to get down, fwu officer still approached with his weapon drawn and he fired several more shots. >> 62 witnesses total. did the one that is were credible have the same version? >> no. it's important to learn as we piece through the testimony. >> reporter: josh led the project of going through all the documents made public. >> most of them were doing their best to say what they remember. they do not have one joint narrative as to what happened. >> reporter: was too much information presented to the grand jury? should the process have been done differently? if so, could it have led to a different outcome? cnn, chicago. >> a lot to talk about. mark and sonny are joining us.

sunny is a former pr. sunny, is it common for a number of witnesses to have testimony then shown to be inaccurate or not telling the truth? >> it is not common. it is uncommon. it is rare. it is unusual. that is because, as i have said from the beginning, as a prosecutor, anderson, you do not place in front of the grand jury a witness you could not place in front of a trial jury. that's why this case, the way it was done, was really just so far from how prosecutors present cases in front of the grand jury. of course this grand jury was confused by that. of course this grand jury probably didn't trust a lot of the witness -- i-witness temperature. that is the job of the prosecutor to weed that out prior to bringing it in front of the grand jury. i have said from the beginning, mark, i know you disagree with me, but this prosecutor decided

to put it in front of the grand jury to overwhelm them. that's what happened. >> mark, i want to hear your take. >> sure. they realized this is a national case and decided to do something unusual. sun sunny, it is unique the way he did it. had he done anything else, he would have been criticized more. he was going to be criticized no matter what. when he decided to put everything in front of the grand jury, what he did was avoid the criticism that would have come had he made a decision the non-credible way. >> are there too many witness -- if somebody is lacking credibility, they didn't see it or just wanted to be involved in the case -- doesn't that confuse the jury? >> i think the 12 people there, like any 12 listening to it in a rational way and having the opportunity to question it themselves, i think it did make it difficult, but, it was the

best alternative given because, look, i think he realized he didn't want an indictment in this case. that's okay for a prosecutor to look back and say i don't think it's here. what he was trying to do in this unique situation was insulate the process from the critique that was coming. could it have confused them? yes. but anything different would have been worse. >> you don't prosecute cases because you are afraid or change processes because you are afraid of what people think. when you are a prosecutor, you are sworn -- no, you are sworn to seek the truth. you are sworn to seek justice. you make the hard decisions you have to make. if you think there's no case, you make a decision not to bring the case. >> sunny, if you are suggesting an extra level of transparency is important, that's ridiculous. >> it's bringing witnesses in front of the grand jury that you know are not telling the truth and are not credible. >> let me ask you about dorian

johnson. his story remained consistent all throughout this. he has a record, he lied to a police officer, he gave a false name to a police officer, so some questioned his credibility. does the fact his story has remained consistent impress you or he could be telling a lie as well? >> i think it's very impressive. when you look at his testimony, which i have. we are talking 73 pages. he is questioned and prodded at every turn and remains consistent from the beginning. of course he says some things like, well, i'm not sure about that. well tharks well, that is what i saw. >> mark, does that impress you? >> he was definitely consistent. he said the same thing over and over again. it just didn't seem to comport with what the grand jury saw. i can give my opinion, it doesn't matter. the grand jury heard him as

every other witness. they took the regular information, the inconsistencies, they listened to it all. they thought about it and they decided no true bill. >> they were misled by the prosecutor as well. >> come on, that's an unfair criticism. >> that is a very fair criticism. >> we are analysts, not advocates. >> when you look at the grand jury tran skiscriptranscript, th officer wilson, then instructed the jury on the law, which we learn in first year law school has been overturned. they never fixed it. they misled the jury by the law and the facts. >> sunny, do you think any of these things we learned about the witnesses would have changed the outcome? >> absolutely. >> mark do you? >> it didn't seem it would. there was nothing that different. >> there's more online if you want to check it out.

cnn.com. sunny, thank you very much. mark, you as well. big cosby's wife breaking her silence. what camille cosby is saying about the sexual allegations against her husband, next. man, e voice text on the new iphone 6? yeah, it's amazing. especially with things that don't normally work with regular texts like sarcasm. [sarcastically] please bring amanda. she's soo fun. or if you want to sing a message. [singing] ♪ do you need anything from the store. like 2% milk or skim? ♪ or just getting around words that are really hard to spell. tell the mcdonahaney's that we can't go camping because our exchange student, thelonious, has arachnophobia, which is a shame because we prepared a smorgasbord of charcuterie for his bicentennial jamboree. ♪

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more breaking news at this hour. bill cosby's wife is speaking out. more than a dozen women accused the comedian of sexual aassaulting them over the years. what does she say? >> she says a lot, anderson. she talks about her husband being a kind, generous and funny man. she says a different man has been portrayed in the media. it is the portrait of a man painted by individuals and organizations who many in the media have given a pass. there appears to be in vetting of him. an accusation is published and immediately goes viral. we are responsible journalists. we do a vetting process before they go on our air. >> she compared her husband to the "rolling stone" article with the uva student.

>> she is aware of what is in the news cycle. we all follow the story of the alleged gang rape. she talks about the story being heart breaking, but ultimately appears to be untrue. she talks about how the media immediately linked her husband and this uva story. she concludes with saying, but the question should be asked, who is the real victim in all of this? she is alluding to the fact her husband is the victim. >> she has not given an interview or spoken public. this is just a prepared statement. >> she released it to a certain news entity. we asked for it and received it a short time ago. >> we'll see if he comes out with a statement. >>erer oning to the 10:00 hour tonight. the latest about the siege at the cafe in sydney australia where a gunman held hostages for

16 hours. we are going to give you the minute by minute how it started and ended.

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good evening, thanks for joining us. just a little before 9:00 p.m. here in new york. police stepped up anti-terrorism efforts in australia where a second victim has been

identified. he is torre johnson. he lost his life trying to disarm the gunman. also killed, katrina dawson, a 38-year-old attorney and mother of three. the circumstances of her death, they are less clear tonight. several others we know are hospitalize zed. the gunman is dead. killed after grenades at the shootout that was broadcast around the world. take a look. >> four or five hostages have managed to escape or move from the lindt cafe. >> let's find out what's happening now. >> you can probably hear the loud explosions behind me. i -- i don't know if it's -- if it's gunfire, i don't know if it's some sort of small

explosive device. that is certainly gunfire. the police are throwing something. >> they are. they are throwing something into the doorway. we have just seen another hostage come out. a woman is being brought out. >> that may well be a grenade. >> we can see a woman there from these live pictures being carried out by officers. >> i can just see now, i don't know if you can see on the live shot a whole bunch of pair paramedics. they are uning up toward the lindt cafe. i counted four stretchers. >> we can see it on the live shot. >> the ambulances are racing through bringing patients out. we have an ambulance driver that asked the camera people to move out of the way. they had a patient to bring out.