>> i'm anderson cooper. have a great day. . [ applause ] good evening, i'm don lemon, i want to welcome our studio audience this. say live "cnn tonight" special, cops under fire. [ applause ] we are really excited to be here tonight. an important conversation. i want to tell you about these stories. these are the stories that shocked america recently, the shooting death of michael brown in ferguson. the eric garner choke hold case in staten island, john crawford iii killed by police for holding an air rifle at a walmart. his family is suing officers involved. all these are just one side of the story and they might make you think that police are the

enemy. before you jump to that conclusion consider this, two new york city police officers were allegedly assaulted by protesters during a demonstration on the brooklyn bridge on saturday. police say lieutenant philip khan and patrick sullivan were bruised all over their bodies and lieutenant khan has a broken nose. on average a law enforcement officer is killed every 58 hours. it comes from the national law enforcement officers memorial fund. what do we want from the men and women sworn to protect us and what do they want from us? we've got police officers and retired officers here with us tonight and we're going to be answering all of your questions. they'll be answering them as well. join the conversation. make sure to use #copsunder fire. our police experts here. they are david clinger, a former street cop in l.a. and professor of criminology at the university of missouri, st. louis. he shot and killed a man attacking his partner. officer stacy lynn who's been

with the lapd for 26 years, she trains patrol officers was shot through the heart in a gang shootout. sandy wall, a retired police officer who as a member of the s.w.a.t. team faced hundreds of lethal threats and shotted three gunmen. paul hershey also retired shot two armed gunman and kneel bruntrager, an attorney for darren wilson, the officer in the michael brown shooting and began in 1981 as a prosecutor and the fifth officer we invited, an african-american sergeant agreed to join us but we are told he is unavailable now. welcome, everyone. let's have a very important conversation, let's be honest with each other. you can ask whatever questions you want. if i get to you but make sure you're respectful. i want to thank you guys for joining us. many came a long ways. you use your weapons in the line

of duty. david, i'm going to start with you. your partner was attacked. >> we responded to a call enbarry gueded gunman was in the house on the north side of vernon. so my partner and i were moving up to button down what we call the west edge of the perimeter and one of the people across the street wouldn't leavement my partner tried to get him out of there. the next thing i knew the people stabbed my partner in the chest with a butcher knife and my partner backed away. he knocked him to the ground and as i run across the street the suspect has his hands like this, going down on my partner. they're fighting over the knife. i think i don't want to have to shoot this guy. try to take the knife away. didn't work, dennis said shoot him. i shot the guy once in the chest. dennis was able to lock his elbows out. we fought the guy for another 30 seconds. some other officers came up and we were able to get him handcuffed and he bled out another minute or two later.

>> stacy, you are on duty with the lapd. you were critically wounded. you followed your assailant. what happened after that. >> well, i was following juvenile gang members. i was off duty so they were trying to steal my car. when i stepped out of my truck he pointed a important 357 magnum at my chest and turn and ran. i fired once at him and then went after him and then when he got to the back of my car he turned and fired five more times. i fired three more at him. he went down. i was losing blood so i tried to get inside my house. i massed out on my driveway from all the blood and paramedics came and defibbed me to bring my heart back the first time. took me to the hospital. went into surgery. found the bullet fragment and shattered my spleen and put a hole in the base of my heart, lung, barely ribs, left about a

tennis ball size hole. >> you told them you were a police officer, right? do you regret doing that. do you think it made the situation -- >> i don't necessarily regret doing that. part of my training i was trying to say police drop the gun. and when i got police out he fired. so there's not a whole lot i could do about that and just reacting to the action he gave to me and, you know, anyone else would do the same thing. just try to protect yourself and others. >> paul, i understand you fired your weapon twice in the hundreds of times you were a special threat situation in houston. why do officers shoot to kill? explain the training to me. >> well, it's not actually shooting to kill. what we're doing is we shoot until the threat goes away. and an example would be the shooting i was involved in. called by our homicide investigators to serve a warrant, a murder warrant on a man who had murdered a citizen

in houston, set his body on fire. they came to us because they felt like this guy was pretty violent and they wanted our -- the numbers and the expertise that we'd bring with us to serve that warrant. the information we got was that the suspect was in a house with his girlfriend and her child. instead of just physically serving a warrant, kicking the door in and serving a warrant on the house we thought it was a better idea to allow him to separate himself, leave the house. we knew that he would be going to work at some point in the morning. so we set up a tactical situation in terms of we had officers, s.w.a.t. officers in uniform in marked cars and we had other officers in s.w.a.t. officers in tactical gear who would support an arrest that we were going to try to effect on him. our plan was to do a felony traffic stop on him. let him get away from the girl much friend a nd a child.

when we did that a small car chase ensued. we used spike strips to flatten his tires. he crashed out. >> how long did this go on and how did it end up? >> literally from the time he left the house until the time i was engaged in the shooting was mabel maybe a matter of 90 seconds. >> the final outcome. >> he crashed out in a ditch off the side of the road. my partner, we crashed off into another ditch off to the right side of the road. my partner got out. he was driving. the suspect got out and was tracking my partner with his handgun getting ready to shoot him. i my partner was trying to engage him firing rounds and missed him. by the time i climbed out of the vehicle all i saw was him pointing the gun at my partner and fired six rounds and he fell. at that point i was shooting only to the threat goes away. he fell to the ground and then he still had the gun and he

tried to raise the gun, i fired two more rounds and killed him. >> i can still see it's hard for you to say that. >> yeah, nobody wants to do that. i thought he was firing rounds at my partner. the whole situation as it unfolds, it's so fluid that you're just a reactant to what you're seeing in front of you. >> as i understand when it happens many times it's like tunnel vision. you don't really know what's happening many of the times and you sort of -- if you're in a corridor, the corridor seeps longer than it is. time speeds up or slows down depending what happened. explain what it means to be in a situation like that. you were involved in three shootings in the 22 years you served. >> you revert back to your training. one thing we were talking about earlier, it's more of a conscious thought not to shoot than it is to shoot because you react to what you're seeing and revert to your training and engage. and you're in fear of your life

or in fear of another person's life and doing what you have to stop that act. but in one of my shootings i remember looking at the barrel and thinking, that's an automatic or semiautomatic handgun. it's either chrome or nickel plated and thinking it's a 45. all of that happened in a millisecond and i'm thinking this while i should be defending myself and i thought i was and it's amazing what the mind decides to focus on in those instances and dr. klinger wrote a book about that. it's amazing what the mind decides to focus on. >> kind of automatic. >> absolutely. >> i want to go down to neal. he represents darren wilson the officer involved in the mike brown shooting. what is the biggest misconception you think about darren wilson in the situation in ferguson? >> i think people assumed that whatever happened that day happened because darren was somehow angry or had gone out

that day in an effort to hurt somebody. when people started to look at the evidence i think that that was dashed but i think that misconception is a strong one and that was at least in part fed by there was such a long period of time where we couldn't say anything because of the ongoing investigation and only one side of the story was being told. there were, many misconceptions but that was the worst. >> stand by. before we go further i want to take a look at a day in the life of a police officer. here's cnn's kyung lau. >> reporter: facing off with protesters in the streets of ferguson. a manhunt through pennsylvania. dangerous duty for america's police, but this image isn't always reality. the average cop's job often ordinary. in 2012, 780,000 officers patrolled america's streets. average pay for those officers,

about $57,000 a year. every cop in america carries on the duty belt a semiautomatic handbegun but you'll notice the duty belt has what's called less lethal weapons. in 2007, 60% of police agencies used tasers or stun guns. 93%, batons. 97% pepper spray. the officer wearing the belt and badge increasingly female. the latest department of justice report from 2007 shows one out of eight officers is a woman. a majority of law enforcement remains white. 75%. 12% are black. 10% latino. 2%, asian. regardless of race, age or gender -- >> officer down. >> they all face one of the highest rate of illnesses and injuries in america. 76 officers died in the line of duty, 27 killed nearly all by

firearms. 49 killed accidentally in car crashes. nearly 50,000 officers were assaulted while responding to calls and making arrest. what we couldn't find, a comprehensive national database when police officers fire their weapons. an fbi report from 2008 shows 375 officer-involved shootings. but that data is only a small sampling of the real number of police shootings in the united states. the biggest danger police face isn't the suspect they confront while on patrol. national data shows officers were twice as likely to commit suicide than they are to be killed in the line of duty. danger on the job and in their own lives. kyung lah, cnn, los angeles. >> much, much more to come with our police experts and studio audience. next we'll put you in the shoes of a cop on the beat in a life-and-death situation. what would you do?

first take a look at what can happen during a routine traffic stop. this dash cam video in middlefield, ohio n. march of 2013 comes from our affiliate woio.

[ applause ] welcome back everyone to our live cnn tonight special "cops under fire." police officers face life and death situations every single day from the outright dangerous life con fraptsing gangs to traffic stops. even those can be daddily. in those situations what would you do? we'll give you a chance to find out. david klinger, stacy lim, sandy wahl, paul hershey and, of course, he is a current retired officer. they are neil bru nchbrunrager. we have some videos. it's part of a lab study at

washington state university. they actually partly funded by the defense department in a simulation now. you'll be responding in this simulation to a domestic violence call and i'll rafiqullah you what would you do? first let's watch it. >> officers -- [ bleep ]. >> come here. >> [ bleep ]. >> come here. >> okay. so there you go. in a lab during simulation you might hear the officer int interacting with a virtual suspect yelling at him to stop it. at this point you cannot see his right hands so we just played it. but the question is what would you do if we rack it back. what would you do where you couldn't see his hands. how many would shoot him? how many of you would shoot? raise your hands if you would shoot. you would shoot? in that situation you would shoot?

>> okay. why is that before we go back to the video. >> because you're putting this individual in a room where his hand is hidden, he's already engaged in violent activity. he is going to turn at you and do harm to you or the individual that's there. under those circumstances the courts have not only can you but maybe you should. >> six or seven said she would not shoot or would not shoot. let's let i play out so that everybody can see it. [ gunshots ] >> i mean what that shows is how quickly it happens. >> everybody in here, the majority of those who would not shoot, the woman ends up dead, the officer could end up dead and the suspect ends up dead, as well, right. go ahead. >> it's tough. i mean that's the situation and i've interviewed about 300 cops around the country. been involved in shootings and some in similar situations such as that and as neil pointed out, the courts would permit an

officer to shoot in that circumstance but i think an awful lot of officers would do what most of the audience did and that is hesitate. what we'd be doing is giving verbal commands to the individual, show the hand or something, let go of the woman but you have to have your gun up and out and have to be ready to pull the trigger so as soon as you see that gun you have to start shooting. >> i'm going to get up and -- can i borrow this microphone? so who back here -- i want to say who would not shoot you said you wouldn't shoot. >> i wouldn't. >> you wouldn't shoot. >> you see what happened. >> yes, but i wouldn't assume he had a gun right away so i probably would have been caught off guard. when you paused it i wouldn't have shot. >> you wouldn't have shot. >> and you? >> after watching the video i definitely would have shot. >> but before you would not have. [ laughter ] >> this is -- to see how quickly the situation changed like in a matter of seconds. and she could end up dead. i could have ended up dead. the officer could have ended up dead so after is seeing the video i would have shot.

>> let's look at it again. [ screaming ] [ bleep ]. >> come here. [ bleep ]. >> come here. every guy in the neighborhood [ bleep ]. [ gunfire ] >> after we are hear about officer involved shootings after looking at that does that change anyone's mind do you feel like maybe sometimes the public at large jumps to conclusions about officer-involved shootings. anyone here? >> right here? >> does that? would that -- does that change anything. >> certainly. that showed us you really can't, you know, you can't know what they're going through unless you're actually in the situation. myself, i would have hesitated too because i wouldn't have -- i would not have assumed he had a gun. that was the last thing on my mind. >> that he a gun. a lot of this has been race has been brought into it and we talk

about race. do you think -- do you in that moment think about race to even have time to by if the suspect is white, black, brown, asian. do you have time to think about that. >> no, you don't have time to think about if it's male, female, adult, kid. you're looking at the situation itself. >> stacy situation what happened. she steps out of a car and saw a gun pointed at her. she didn't even see the kid ha she shot. >> the officers, you all would have shot? >> no. >> you would not have shot. >> no, no, as you played the video, this is a perfect depiction of action is faster than reaction. meaning the actions of that suspect -- it's going to be faster than the reaction of the officer. the best you're going to get is a 50/50 draw. you're going to lose. you're going to get shot but as the video rolled there was a corner -- it's a hallway so there's a corner in the kitchen. i would have taken a barricaded position on that hallway, making

verbal commands. i wouldn't have shot until he pulled the gun out but i would have shot him. >> cops are human beings and everyone is going to act differently based on your training and perceptions and personality. you're never going to go threat this is how all cops would do it. >> they found while volunteers of all races often view african-american suspects more threatening as white ones they were more restrained in shooting african-americans they were than they were white suspects. >> absolutely. i was part of that research and i was a co-author on a follow-up study to that and basically what happens is the implicit bias that everybody is talking about where you push buttons. what brian and lois and other states at washington state was make it more realistic. they found when it's more realistic it's the social. the entire situation, when that happens race does not play a major role in terms of the decision to shoot and, in fact,

the officers are slower to shoot with black suspectss and also less likely to shoot. we talk about that in terms of a counterbias. >> scientific research is fact. >> it's not the end all, be all but this study is pretty powerful. >> you know where i'm going. how many of you believe that? [ laughter ] how many of you believe that? i hear you laughing and someone back here. wait, why don't you believe that. >> because i mean what he's saying it just happened that so many black young black men just end up dead when no weapon and nothing. i mean if you're so slow to shoot a black man, most of them would be alive today where we don't have about white mens getting killed without a gun. we have white men with guns and they don't get killed. >> what i would say is the data shows unarmed white men are killed. another thing i think is real

important for everybody to understand all of us have been involved in multiple situations particularly sandy and paul where we had absolute lawful right to shoot people, white, black, hispanic and we held fire. we don't want to shoot people and so what the research suggests is that that notion of being restrained is coming out in this experiment. >> okay. lots more to talk about in our cnn tonight special, "cops under fire." are body cameras the next important tool for police officers and would they change anything. we'll get answers and opinions from our experts and a demonstration of how body cameras really work. make sure you stay with us. celebrate what's new, the bigger, better menu at red lobster! with more of what you love! try our newest wood-grilled combination! maine lobster,

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[ applause ] i am so glad we're doing this and so glad you could join us live here on cnn, welcome back to our live town hall, "cops under fire." with advances in technology, are

body camera the answer for police? the mayor of los angeles plans to begin outfitting all police officers. we're joined by todd morris, the founder of brick house security which makes body cameras and i'm wearing one now. you probably were wondering what that is. so show us how this works. this is the talk of the nation about outfitting police department. >> so what you're wear something a body worn camera that at the push of a button can start recording from your point of view to show what you're seeing. that one can also scream via wi-fi back to your car and records on to a tablet or phone and gives you the ability to show what's happening -- >> i'll walk around and ask you. this is my -- how does this actually -- that's your, right? >> yes. >> how does this stay on especially if an officer is in a tussle. how does this stay on -- >> these are pretty industrial

strong clips and hold on pretty tight so don't fall off. the fact they're recorded offsite to a tablet or phone that if they fall off you still have. >> can we switch? can i have yours? is that a big deal to do? i'd like to walk around the audience with yours. let's do that. >> here we go. >> all right. so this is the one. the officer would have -- there are different sorts. >> right. >> put that on for me. there are different sorts and i would imagine they would make it a bit sturdier and where it stays on better. that's good if it's better for a police officer. if it's on a police officer. >> right. >> so what do you think? and who gets to see this? is there a designated person as i walk around here. >> that depends who buys the camera. when he buys it with his own money it ends up that he decides who gets to see it. when there's a policy in place it can be seen by a variety of policies in the city. that seems to be the big question of what should those policies be. who gets access, under what

situations, because it's in the public record. should anyone be able to get it with a request for any reason. we don't know. >> okay, i understand that you have been selling out of these lately with what happened recently. why is that? what's going on? >> what we're finding is a lot of police departments around the country are doing demos, trials and evaluations but while they're doing that police officers are actually buying the cameras personally with their own money because they're concerned and they don't want to be the next person accused of something and doesn't have the proof from their point of view that it didn't go down that way. >> so even if the department isn't buying these for the officers, officers buy them themselves just because they want to be protected. well, interesting. you said protesters are buying these, as well. >> we're seeing protesters buy them in new york, as well. >> why is that? >> i think a lot of them just want to make sure they have a record of what happened. just in case there's misbehavior. >> is it possible to tamper with these, with the video or with the outcome afterwards. >> these encode their video with a time and date stamp that can't

be altered. if someone tries to edit the video it will be obvious it's been edited. >> how do officers feel about these? do they want to wear them or in general or no. >> i think my experience is generally it's going to take a little while for officers to warm up to it because it's new technology. it's going to take a little while but once officers learn of the potential benefits, absolutely. the problem is as he was pointing out is the policy about who gets to look at this. when i was a young police officer i intervupted two rapes in progress and those women have a right to privacy this isn't something that shows up on youtube. if don, you're having a fracas at your house and sandy and paul show up to mediate the dispute. it's your worst day you don't want that out on youtube so we have to have state level laws to handle the situation so the public can't get a request and have fun at someone's expense on their worst day. >> do you think this would have

helped in ferguson. >> part of the activity would have helped but the initial contact in the car wouldn't have helped at all and, don, you noticed it when you walked around the word. you have to be facing it in order for that to be useful, right so turn sideways to me right now. you wouldn't be facing me so the initial contact in the car would have not been reflected at all in the body camera. so, again, it can answer some questions, it's not going to answer all the questions. it's not the panacea that everyone thinks it can be. can it be useful but we have to make sure to tailor our expectations. >> we saw with eric garner, everything. we saw it. that didn't make a difference. so how is this going to make a difference? >> i think what testimony do, it will provide one representation in two dimensions from one perspective and maybe sandy wants to comment or maybe stacy but what happens about what you are perceiving and what is being recorded might be two very different things. >> all right. do you think these will make a difference? >> no, i don't. >> did you say no? >> no, i don't think there will be a difference because like you said we did have a camera for

eric garner and it was from -- well, from his point of view it was a third party person recording. and furthermore, what happens you get into a confrontation where it's a shootout and then it shoots off or something happens to the camera. is the data not there, nonexisting or do you only have what was previously recorded. >> i think it's interesting because everyone relies on technology and wants improved technology but when it comes to this. how many do you think it will make a difference if you think -- raise your hand if you think they'll make a dinse. how many of you think they won't make a difference? new technology. you don't think it'll make a difference. >> i think there have beto bto in place. if there's no system body cams won't help. >> how many times do you think

it'll be used against the perpetrator or -- why do you think that? let me get over to you. >> it's kind of easy. you know, over in staten island we all saw the exact same thing and somehow what we saw wasn't really what we saw. >> yeah. >> it's interesting because we would think that knowledge is power, right? and by having more cameras even if you hear a scuffle you might think it would be better and more information. but i am surprised so many people are buying these actually. police officers, protesters, who else? who else is buying this. >> they're used a lot about police officers and the protesters but see them used by other people who are in a position where they could be accused of something. even people security guards, private security guards are using them, as well because very often these lead to large legal battles of he touched me inappropriately and spoke to me inappropriately and leads to a settlement. >> i have to run. what are the costs for an average. >> this runs about $200, that one is about 400. >> thank you very much. up next, our cnn tonight special

"cops under fire" are local police departments coming too mill that rised. first take a look at the tense scene new york city police faced last week when they confronted an emotionally disturbed c intruder who entered a synagogue. the attacker was shot and killed. >> right now, man. >> hey, hey, hey. >> whoa. >> whoa, whoa, whoa. whoa. [ bleep ]. >> whoa, whoa, whoa. >> hey. >> drop the gun. [ shooting ] >> oh. the volkswagen golf was just named

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[ applause ] we are back, everyone, with our live cnn tonight special of "cops under fire." a lot of the criticism that has been leveled at police in the last couple of months since ferguson has to do with militarization or overmilitarization. do armored car, snipers and police in full body armor keep the peace or do they make things worse so back with me now our team of police experts. i want to get a show of hands. were you watching ferguson? were you watching it initially? how many do you think with the

way the police reacted made it worse? show of hands. you do. you don't. no, no. but i want someone who doesn't. because i think we've spoken a lot about people who said it did so i want hear from you why you think it didn't. >> i feel like they're protecting us and should look like they're protecting us and if they need a helmet and a shield and they need an armored car to get behind in case something gets bad, i like the idea that they're protecting us. >> what do you think? >> well, i think in the situation in ferguson, i think that it wasn't necessary. i think there were initially peaceful protests and i think when you bring guns and people see that and the shields and see everything i think that kind of brings a lot more emotion into the situation and people feel like they have to protect themselves from the people that are supposed to be protecting them. >> all right. >> okay, so some of the officers

on our panel believe that. you have questions about what happened initially in ferguson. is that right? >> yeah, i mean since i live there and i've worked with some of these agencies some of the things i don't understand for example there really isn't a need to wear the camouflage. you can a regular -- you can wear a regular uniform. i still don't understand. maybe the chief will get upset but should have held a press conference and gone from head to toe explaining what he's wearing. if a brick comes flying he won't get his head tracked and a chest protector like yadier molina does. and i think if the we have would have explained that, held a press conference that that might have set a different tone. >> most police officers serve their entire career and never fire their gun in the line of duty. >> you spent two decades in a

s.w.a.t. -- >> if it turns to that it is within an instant. they were coming for worst case scenario. if this turns bad what are we going to do. if someone starts shooting at us we got a place to retreat. we can't wait a minute. stop the shooting. we have to get more equipment. >> even if it hasn't started you're -- >> what are you supposed to do. >> with the expectation that the worst can happen. >> yeah, time-out, wait a minute. there is no time-outs. >> you guys think that is fair? [ laughter ] hmm. >> i was on a pam with captain ron johnson and i didn't know this until ron told me a few days ago that armored vehicle that people saw or one of those armored vehicles used it multiple times to rescue people in the kill zone and got peppered with gunfire. that's what the vehicle is. neither paul or sandy can talk chapter and verse about how critical they are when used

appropriate. >> when does protect and serve become them versus us. >> i've been representing police officers for 33 years now. and it is -- it's sad to watch on so many levels because i get to see these men and women and know what they do on a daily level and know what effect it has on their wife, children and i know what they go through and it's tragic we've lost sight of the fact they do protect and serve and, again, we've lost sight of it. >> andre, you had a question about what you can and can't do when being arrested. >> my question is, what exactly is resisting arrest? is it raising your hands? is it asking the police officer a question. is it backing away. exactly what is resisting arrest and what we can and can't do. >> go ahead. >> he's a lawyer. >> that's a legal question. >> this becomes a legal question. resisting arrest is defined by every state and unfortunately, we have a legal definition but it's application on the street is really what you're asking, i

think is it what can i expect and the answer is, you can expect that if you treat a police officer with the same respect that you want, you are by and large going to get that same respect. >> oh, you're going to get it. you're going to get it. >> do you guys believe it? >> no. >> that's been my observatioobs >> why don't you believe it? why don't you believe it? what did you say. >> it depends who you ask because i could -- i mean for some of us who deal with these things every day the reality is we can be sweet as pie and if an officer or anyone has a preconceived notion about me he's going to react based off of that so, again, it depends who you ask. >> we'll talk about this more and talk about -- you think race plays into it. >> absolutely. >> how many people do? a show of hands. okay. all right. we're going to talk about that and you can join the conversation at home. make sure you use #copsunderfire. we'll be right back with more from you and from our studio audience. first look at this. a police pursuit in fortville,

indiana. matt fox was critically wounded in the incident two years ago but he survived and all started because of a broken taillight. >> turn it on. the keys off. [ sirens ] ♪ music

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[ applause ] welcome back, our live coverage, "cops under fire" and with me police experts from around the country answering questions. do you think the protests around the country are helping or hurting? what do you think? >> hurting. >> hurting. >> why? >> it's inflaming people and it's not -- it's hurting the dialogue. we're not talking about the issues. we're talking about the

emotions. >> helping or hurting audience. >> audience: helping. >> this is people's form of dialogue. that's the whole issue that people feel like their voices have not been heard until now. >> this is a greater conversation than for decades. we've not had any sort of real and the fact people are expressing their emotion. we should be letting that out and should be putting it out there in some form or other and the fact it is a protest and it's been peaceful is beautiful. >> we have no disagreement with you about the peaceful part. the part we're concerned about is the people that are going out of control, hurting cop, burning places down, so on and so forth. that's what my concern is. >> well, go ahead. >> they can't ruin the whole -- you had 60,000 people in new york city and you had this incident on the brooklyn bridge. that's all i'm hearing about. that's some two or three days later. what about the ones there that were expressing themselves

peacefully. >> we have no problem with that, ma'am. >> but we're focusing on those -- >> cops would say the same thing. we're out there vast majority and had one incident and it all blows up. >> okay, so, race, how much do you believe race plays into this? right, do you think race plays into -- right, 100% you guys say that, okay. had you a question about race. what was it. >> hi, so in light of the one black officer not being here today, i think that blacks are scrutinized more in the media, the judicial system and law enforcement so my question is, if black police officers patrolled mostly black neighborhoods, do you think that would make a difference? >> what i can say the research shows in terms of use of force at least the answer is no, believe it or not, the first studies on the use of deadly force were conducted by a gentleman by the name of james fife. jim passed several years ago

unfortunately. what he was able to do is look at all the uses of deadly force by nypd officers in the early 1970s and found something interesting. black officers were more likely to shoot than white officers and looked at who other things. where did they work and live and what he found out once you control for where an officer works and where he lives because many -- excuse me, many police shootings happen off duty the race effect goes away so the black and white officers confronted with the same situation shoot at about the same rate. similarly in st. louis, i've looked at every officer involved shooting for the decade that ended in 2012. about a third of the cops in st. louis are black. about a third of the shooters in st. louis are black. and so what we -- what this suggests at least quite strongly is police officers, black, white, hispanic, meal, female respond to the threat presented to them. >> do you guys talk about this amongst each other, is it part of your training, race, perception. >> yes, absolutely. >> the houston pliskova department puts cultural

diversity classes on all the time in-service classes. >> mandatory. >> and it's mandatory training. >> you have a question? >> in light of what you're saying, though, if we did have black officers and black communities, would there be more respect? would there be a better understanding between the community and police force instead of this us versus them mentality. >> why is there an us versus them mentality. >> i want to make a comment on the stat, the number of white officers versus black officers. to answer your question, we need more black officers. we don't have enough to put them in all the neighborhoods that you're talking about. >> they said it's hard -- is it hard to find black officers? >> a lot of them don't apply and the ones -- we do -- in houston we do do have a fairly diverse police department. i just think that nationally it's just hard to get that many that want to be cops. >> don -- >> it's a huge issue. i represent the police officers

association and the department itself is constantly recruiting to have a diverse class and you can't get people to apply. >> where is olivia olivia, you had a question, you said. do you believe elevate the police presence. >> yes, do you believe elevated police presence in low-income communities is a necessity and if so why or is it more motivated by racial stereotyping or prejudice? >> does it hurt or help to have more presence there. >> i think it's good for everybody. for the police officers and the people that live there. it creates an officer safety issue or an officer feels a little more comfortable getting out of his car and walking in, being more interactive -- i worked for the first six years in houston in third war houstd n texas. >> do you think there's a race problem when it comes to police? do you guys feel that? these people most of them here are saying there is. do you believe that. >> i don't think there's a race problem so much it's an

understanding maybe different cultures. i mean race -- hispanic kid shot me but that doesn't mean i don't like hispanic kids. i was raised by a hispanic lady. we have to train our officers to, you know, prepare for the worse and hope for the best. because and you showed up here. half of you looked at it was thinking i'd shot after but after the effect what are we supposed to do. expectation people want us to get shot before we do anything? i've been there. it frickin hurts. i don't want to be shot. >> i had a question from someone that says why doesn't it get covered when someone white gets shot. >> the media plays a big part in this. our experience in houston if we had a huge s.w.a.t. call-up, be out all night long and at the end the media is there and say did anybody get shot, no, we used tactics and took the suspect in without being hurt and, well, it didn't make the news at all. >> we'll be right back.

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we've learned we can all do a better job. we should continue to have these conversations. thank you, everyone. i appreciate it. i'm don lemon. good night. good evening, thanks for joining us. in pakistan the death toll is rising and sense of shock and loss is deepening as they try to understand the act of terror against chilling. a 911 bloodbath coming soon to a theater near you. the question is who is behind it and is it, in fact, north korea and if so, what's next? plus, with the horror still fresh in sydney, australia, we'll profile the heroes that came forward and saved lives and tried to their best to save the day. we begin tonight with that terror attack in pakistan.