idol called "the godfather" movie, because there is this sense of family. >> michael had many options. he destroyed his family. and everything he touched. >> in a way it's fair. >> it's fair? >> indeed, a good movie, sure. >> coppola, he didn't [ muted ] it up? >> no. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. breaking news on the sony hacking scandal. officials say north korea used old-fashioned low tech method to guide access to sony's corporate secrets. the latest from south korea. >> newt gingrich calls the hack attack "an act of war that must be dealt with severely." he calls the white house response, "impotent." how should the u.s. respond? wile we'll ask him. in boston, a case of terrorism, the boston marathon bombing, a court case. the man injured in the attack,

waves his prosthetic leg in their faces. we'll have the latest on that as well. the obamas talk about race. in a candid interview with "people" magazine. the president and first lady discuss brushes with racism. are they playing the race card? what if they are? straight ahead. let's begin with the breaking news. sony suspended tours of the los angeles studio until january. because the of security concerns following the hack attack. that its according to the hollywood reporter. meantime, the obama administration may publicly blame north korea for the attack as the early as the tomorrow. officials tell cnn investigators know how the hackers got in. and we are joined now from seoul, south korea with the latest on this story. so, we are learning tonight that the u.s. investigators think the hackers use aid sony employee -- used a sony employee's credentials to get in. what can you tell us about that? >> reporter: it is a targeted attack. if you think about it from the hacker's perspective.

a smart attack. from what we are learning from u.s. investigators they believe they were able to hack in and steal the credentials of a system administrator. essentially the guy holding the keys. once they got the keys they were able to break in, have free reign, access to all kind of information and thereby wreak havoc. that's why this has been so successful. at least that's what we are hearing. so, how does, what does this mean? what this means for sony is that they now have to figure out how to button this up. but it also gives us a window into how successful they were because they were targeted, don. >> we have heard about the group. called bureau 121 in north korea. what have you learned about the group? >> so, bureau 121 is if you think about the -- the new warfare,ing ing wbeing cybersp. these are foot soldiers. we don't know how many exist.

we speck oke to a defector. there are 1800, trained by pyongyang, best of the best, trained in the hard-targeted attack. trained to be hackers. they're sent out. they get their orders from pyongyang. what they do is try to hack into whatever system they need to. have they done this before? well the south korean government believes that they are behind a massive attack that occurred in south korea last year. basically froze every single atm in this country. so imagine that. for three days not being able to pull out any cash. again, this is a very, very powerful group. >> thank you. >> now to the hack attack on sony. newt gingrich former speaker of the house calls it an "act of war" that must be met with a "swift sand severe response by the united states government." he joins me along with phillip mudd, a former counterterrorism official. welcome, gentlemen. newt. >> good to be with you. >> after the sony decision to

pull the film "the interview" you tweeted -- it wasn't the hackers who won it was the terrorists. almost certainly the north korean dictatorship. this was an act of war. you say an act of war. do you think the u.s. has been caught flatfooted by the sony attack? >> absolutely. it was 23 days from the initial assault on sony to the final decision to pull the movie. 23 days. the u.s. government did nothing. made no representations. pursued nothing. the fact its that they now are saying the north koreans were responsible. when somebody comes into your country, coerces one of your companies, openly threatens to kill your citizens if they go to a theater. if that is not an act of war what its it? it strikes me. this is a deliberate effort by the, north koreans, it's dangerous because if they get away with it. then who does what next? and how many people -- start deciding they can go after

americans. dest destroy their resources. cripple their lives. and get away with it. >> my" to phil. how should the u.s. response. should they respond immediately? >> i don't think they should. i think what we have here is a problem in understanding not only who did it. it appears we're starting to figure that out. dealing with a new normal in cyberworld. back at the agency in 01, 2001, 2003. we spun up threats and responses to terrorism. we did not have a lot of experience in working in the threat environment. i think we made a lot of mistakes. alarming the am kwerican people. today in the same situation in the cyberworld. we do not understand huh to develop policy. i agree with speaker gingrich on the issue. i don't think we have a established protocol how to respond. people at national security council and elsewhere in consultation with people like silicone valley have to step back and say this is a new normal in the cyberworld. let's not spin up too quickly. let's figure out long term what we do about stuff like this. this is going to be lasting

forever. >> is a response more sanctions? as long as china is supporting them, mr. speaker. >> i don't know what the response is. the response could be to go in with our own cybercapabilities and close down north korea. take apart north korean assets that are electronic. cause them enormous domestic problems. but the real danger here is-- the entire rest of the world is watching. if somebody can come into an american company, close it down so people literally are using paper and pencil, steal five movies, openly threaten to kill americans if they go to a movie theater, and nothing is done? every, every element that hates us on the planet is going to take that as a signal that we are so unprepared that we're an open target. it is very important that we find some very significant response to prove that it is, very expensive to invade the united states with cybercapability, to try to coerce americans.

>> the accountability -- the counter belief is that north korea is so unpredictable. people are worried. they don't know how they will retaliate. should that be a cononcern, we don't know how they will retaliate? >> i agree with the speaker. we have got to respond. not just for north korea. a state still living in some ways in the 20th send schur re. their people are starving, infrastructure limited, technical capabilities, limited. internet access is aun chiefable in north korea. that said, in 2014, we have got to look to the future. what happens when mexican cartel do's this? what happens when human traffickers do this? what happens when drug traffickers do this? iran, russia, china? i think we have got to be thinking abut wheout where we g five, ten years in establishing a response and establishing a base line for how we deal with what is an incredible hack in the past few weeks. not look at north korea in isolation. we are going to have to deal with this in the new cyberworld

all the time. >> i want to read, director michael moore's staement to cnn. before the release of "fahrenheit 911" the studio, myself and theaters received numerous threats warning us not to show it. none of this deterred any of us from releasing "fahrenheit 911." we just hired more security. how do you make a private scum pan have a stiffer spine against cyberterror? >> i don't think you can tell them what to do. let me be blunt. i was not have done this had i been them. in the world of risk and threat i sat on for years, this doesn't reach a threshold to change american culture to respond to an amorphous threat from an adversary we can beat. i understand sony is nervous. you can't predict a north korean dictator. i don't have to sit in the sony chair to figure out what happens if there is an event and you go forward. in terms of how we respond. a rare moment where i will agree with michael moore. i don't think we should have taken this severe response.

we don't know if north capability to do this. >> should sony and theaters have stood up for the 1st amendment. aren't they in the business of making money? >> sure they are. also in the business of defending the right of free expression. virtually everybodien hy ein hod will tell you how they believe frin dom freedom of speech. they get offended at effort to censor them. imagine a theater owner said i will be courageous. have the movie. and imagine north koreans had b been able to hire five folks. everybody in the theater would have sued the theater owner. said this was negligence. this was inappropriate. i think the way we have designed the system today. maximizes the risk for being courageous. and maximizes the legal exposure of people who are courageous. and we have to revisit that part of it. i want to go a step further. this is not some local teenager,

this is not some local hacker. this is, this is a nation state engaged in activities which included, overtly threatening to kill americans if they went to a movie theater. it is the job of the u.s. government to be engaged at that point. we had 23 days to the u.s. government to respond effectively. it did nothing. and frankly, if i had been head of sony that would have made me nervous >> speaker gingrich, phillip mudd, thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> the fallout is huge. the movie was expected to earn more than $100 million for sony. and "variety" is reporting sony stand to lose $75 million. actor steve carell set to star in a film set in south korea. that film has been scrapped. joining me, jeffrey lyons. good to have you here. doubly so. you have seen the movie. we will talk about it.

do you think sony did the right thing pulling "the interview." >> i don't want to sit in their chair. they almost had no choice. when you thing of aurora. they didn't have it in a private screening room. they had it in a theater. walking out the thought did cross my mind. boy, somebody could shoot up this place. why am i thinking like that? that's crazy. if you took the screen play of the events of two weeks to a studio, five, six years ago they never would have bought it. thurd believe it is happening. i think they were very scared. >> i want you to listen to what chris rock said from "the new york times" today about how hollywood feels about the hacking. >> this whole thing is scorer, man. e-mails, your private stuff, and -- i don't know. the whole town is scared. everybody has got to be scared. no one knows what, you know? >> nobody knows what to do. >> nobody knows what to do. >> screen writers, executives. theaters running scared? >> this is mass censorship by somebody on the other side of

the world using technology we didn't know they had ability to use. what is going to happen to creativity, two, three years ago when somebody wants an idea for a movie that may offend a group. it's really scary. >> let's talk about the movie. you are one of the few who has seen it. what did you think of it? >> it is kind of a fun, stoner movie. co-written by seth rogan, co-directed it. there are funny moments. silly. funny. and language. take out off-color word. it would be 20 minutes shorter. two guys know each other. worked in films before. quite an amusing film. wish it would have been funnier. here and there it gets sc scatlogical. fun day at the movies. it's harmless. >> thumbs up, thumbs down? >> not thumb ttz. -- not thumbs. >> riaw awe. >> i recommend people see it.

>> do you think a studio or production company may buy it and release it. >> someday, a young man, when his time is over. who knows. people say they'll put it on pay-per-view, dvd. that will take time. it depend in the way the united states react to awful this. the way we fight back. this can't go on like this. hollywood is only going to make, family friendly musicals if this goes on. >> was it a bad idea? end of the movie it shows the death, graphic death -- >> you are giving it away. doesn't matter. nobody will see it. >> what did you think? >> i was surprised. pretty graphic. a lot of the scenes are gruesome. i said they really did that? >> i want to read this. this its what -- to date u.s. came to an unprecedented attack on cherished bed rock principle of free speech by north korean terrorists who threat tuned kill movie-goers to stop the release of a movie. >> absolutely right. sorkin is brilliant. absolutely right.

this is really scary. every tomb yime you go to a mov. i hope some group on the other side of the world won't be offended. repercussions that are scary. as scary as what originally happened. >> thank you for coming on. >> glad to be here. thank you. >> jeffrey lyons. lots more ahead on cnn. court hearing for the suspect in the boston marathon bombing. one of the people injured in the attack took offense at supporters supporters. the president and first lady talk about their experiences with racism. they're joining the national conversation on being black in america. is it the right thing for them to do? we'll debate it in a minute. dad,thank you mom for said this oftprotecting my future.you. thank you for being my hero and my dad.

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we haven't seen him in quite some time. >> 17 month as go. the last time he was in the federal courthouse. he appeared today. he looked relaxed. his hair was longer. more disshelved. the one change. he was wearing a black collared sweater, white shirt. gray slacks. very respectful. the judge began questioning him. do you believe your lawyers have your best interest at heart. he said very much. the judge said is there anything you want to discuss in private, and dzhokhar tsarnaev said no sir. the guys remembered him in high school as. the captain of the wrestling team. thought this was uneventful. in fact a woman stood up and began shouting in russian, don.

>> was that the only dramatics. i understand there may have been a couple instances where people erupted. >> there was. you had victims of the marathon bombing in the courthouse. sitting there, at the left of the courthouse, just watching what was going on. and, as matter of fact. one man had stopped by two women who were outdoors, basically saying, you know there is no evidence. that, that tsarnaev had been set up. this is what he did. at one point he took his prosthetic leg off and started shake it at women. he said you want proof? here is your proof? >> these women were out in support of tsarnaev. which may be interesting. why do they thing he is not guilty? >> a lot of them don't believe there is enough evidence. they belief he has been set up by the fbi the woman who stood up and started screaming out in russian, she is actually the mother-in-law of the friend of tsarnaev, ibrahim totashev,

implicated in a triple-murder after the bombing. while allegedly writing a confession he lunged at fbi agents and was shot dead. this was his mother-in-law. she was screaming at the court, stop killing innocent people. stop killing innocent boys. she said, dzhokhar, "stay strong, there are supporters here for you." a lot of fireworks. people didn't expect. one woman said it well, you know, she was injured in the bombing. she said to me after court, she said, "the reason i cam was not to see tsarnaev, the reason i came was so he would see us. he didn't win. we in fact are stronger because of what happened. not weaker. which, was the alleged intent of the bombing, don. >> what's next here, deb? >> well the judge has to make a couple rulings on several motions outstanding. the trial set to begin in january. once again, dzhokhar's lawyers will try to postpone the trial. there is so much evidence. they need the time to go through it. >> thank you.

>> the boston bombing and hacking of sony's computers, both forms of modern day terrorism. let's talk about that with the cnn national security analyst, and ceo of mitnick securiti.com. he was once one of the fbi's most wanted after hacking into 40 major corporations just for the challenge. all right. so, jewel yet. let's begin with you though. >> i am going to be nice to him. >> yes, absolutely. >> be nice. >> julia, sound like your voice is better. glad about that. we started the week worrying lone wolf copycats from the hostage standoff in australia to. day lone wolf, boston bomber, tsarnaev in court. are the hackers the same thing, lone wolf terrorists? >> no, at least now the evidence shows that it was, north korea, response bum fible for the hack. into sewn. they don't know who is responsible for the 9/11 threat that came later.

i wouldn't call them lone wolves if you will look at them altogether. what they are, a form of asymmetric, warfare, or asymmetric threat. two brothers at a marathon. one guy in australia. and, 60 hackers from north korea. an essentially bring down entire industry. the entertainment industry. that's the nature of the kind of threat we are facing. part of it is media and globalization of media. part is the attackers are more savvy. they, they pick high profile events. they pick entertainment industries. so this is the sort of wave we are looking at right now. >> so i wonder who is more dangerous. some one with a pressure cooker. lone wolf with the pressure cooker. hacker skills. they can crack into computers and into, companies like sony or any other company. juliet. >> it is a different kind of threat. all of us can sit here in judgment of sony. the way i describe it.

as sony. they acted perfectly rationally. if you are them. the rest of us have to live with the consequences. i think we don't have a good notion of how to both defend ourselves against cyberattacks and, not just the u.s. government. it is obviously private industry. as well as how to respond. so when people talk about warfare, what does that mean? how are we actually supposed to respond? and it's -- it is a new era in this regard. >> kevin, to you now. u.s. investigators learned the hackers stole the computer credentials of an administrator to get access to sony's computer system. how hard on a scale of one to ten is it to do what they did? >> well, it depend. dep pendz on their internal security how they shored up their defenses. the first thing an attacker well do. go after the system administrators. because they have access to the keys of the kingdom. in fact when i am doing a

penetration test, a legal ethical hacking exercise. the first thing i go after is the administrator desk tops, to learn how the company operates. to get access to administrative pass words. so that's the first thing that any ordinary hacker can do. >> you could have done this? >> i don't know if i could have hacked into sony. i believe so. i will tell you why. is they had really sloppy security. one of -- one individual that works for the press, shared files with me. i learned that the ceo, michael linton. his password to access the dough man and his e-mail was sony, ml, his initials followed by number 3. which is really a bad password. 1, 2, 3, 4, right. off awe it's better than 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. the other issue when the hackers released information, they pilfered from sony it contained

files that contained all of the administrative password in plain ordinary text files. that means if a hacker got administrative rights, they're going to be able to get access to everything. >> julia, i saw you shaking your head in agreement. you thought their security was lax. i have to ask you. he talked about that. i want to ask you, remember the attacker said, you don't want to do this. it is going to be, make sure you remember, september 11th. you see that that threat was credible? >> no. i didn't. i don't think government did. so when people say the u.s., you know, was on its knees, a private company, a japanese company made this decision. it was a bad decision. but the notion that this is somehow equivalent of north korea. launching missiles on south korea. just not true. and we have to just put it in perspective. tone

sony should take responsibility. i think there will be consequences. we don't know what nay look like. while this its bad, consequences, freedom of speech in the future. we should be careful with our language. because we deon't want to ratcht up something that can be cured by something less than calling it war. >> what can companies do to prevent hacks like this in the future. you mention the password. one, two, three, four, five, six. basically. what can companies do? >> lay their defenses. we need a good security industry that can come up with better innovative security products to help companies like sony. and what i, also learned about sony is there was an internal memorandum that discussed their security monitoring procedures. mentioned in the memorandum, there were points in sony's network, that were not being monitored because of misconfiguration, mismanagement. and this went up, particular

memorandum up to upper management. then they gave orders to, you know, resolve this. but if i was the bad guy breaking into their network. this memorandum would be, you know, the jack pot. i know how to get into the network. how do they steal data. they know where to send it out from. that's what ham pennppened in t case. >> president barack obama and first lady offer candid observations in a magazine interview about their own experiences with racism. we're going to talk about that next.

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they are america's first couple. the closest thing we have to royalty. president barack obama and president obama. speaking to "people" magazine, according to the obamas they're treated less than the royals or first couple and more like the help. here to discuss, a commentator, and, cnn political commentator and op-ed columnist for "the new york times." i enjoyed your op-ed today. >> you are going to get in so much trouble for calling the obamas royals. >> especially now what is going on nowadays. >> closest thing we have. >> you read my mind. i did it anyway. when they chat ated about racis. they said, there is no black male my age who is a professional who hasn't come out

of a of a restaurant, waiting for the car, somebody didn't hand them the car keys. the president adds that happened. michelle obama, a black tie dinner, some one asked, wearing a tuxedo, to get him a coffee. right. and went on to when she was at wal-mart, baseball cap, some one asked her to get something off of a shelf. the only person who came up, a woman who asked me to help her take something off a shelf. he didn't see as the first lady. she saw me as some one that can help her. those things hameppen in life. it wasn't anything new. what do you think? >> all of these incidents that they're describing, or at least, the kids call micro-aggressions, really small things in the grand sweep of things. it's not even, things you can, you can completely pin down and say is this or is this not? no one will ever know. you can't climb inside some

one's head, don't know motives, that motive or if there is a motive. >> how it makes them feel? >> really about the whole conversation. the conversation boils down. how does something make you feel? and that question may not be able to be answered. but itch yf you can start with question. people involved in the conversation are interested in getting to a better place of understanding they will engage. say, i wouldn't have taken it that way. you have to get engaged in the conversation. >> have you had a similar ex-experience to the first lady? >> i had an experience in the store. i was shopping. a white couple walked up and went through a longthy explanation of what they were looking for. i said to the man, perhaps some one who works here would be able to answer your question for you. i was on my merry way. they were embarrassed. apologetic. >> i don't work here, but will be more than happy to help you.

>> it is all in how you approach the situation. i think that, that engaging about, with people in a, from a positive perspective understanding is so important here. because, how are we ever going to move forward. i don't know that, these conversations and what, what the president is engage in, and i'm sorry, but i'm skeptical of the first lady's example here. because that target incident, she told the story completely differently in a david letterman interview in 2012. discussing that incident and she was shopping incognito this woman walked up to her and asked her to pull something off the shelf for her. because she was tall. she said i thought my cover was blown. told my assistant. my cover is blown. we will have to get out of here. she said it made her feel good she was treated as a regular person. the person asked her to get it because she was short. why its she turning it into a racial conversation. i think that's not helpful in this, we want to move forward positively. >> she says in the article i'm not sure why she did it. >> it is, come on, dornn.

>> i genuinely believe in this instance, putting it in a racial context. some part of her, whether it was, she always felt that way or not, she in this particular interview putting it into that. >> i don't know. >> do we have time for the thing. i want to get that. the whoopi thing in the next block. talking having a conversation right. need to have a conversation. what dana lash tweeted. the lesson is never ask any one for help with anything ever no matter the need, it may be mentioned in people as a racist act. >> what does that do? that its not helpful. i don't think that is a person who is trying to move any sort of conversations forward whatsoever you. really do have to start with people who really want to say, i want to, i want to understand what you are feeling what you think? and i want to.

>> life is tough. off awe dana should know better than to tweet something like that about royalty. >> life its tough. you are going to, have challenges, obstacles. they'll face you. all about how you choose to handle it moving forward. that's where we need to come from in this conversation. >> hold the thought. being facetious. you have to overexplain everything here. a new poll suggests 40% of americans think race relations good in america. are the obamas part of the 40%? we'll get into that next. oh what fun it is to ride. get the mercedes-benz on your wish list at the winter event going on now - but hurry, the offer ends december 31st. [ho, ho, ho!] lease the 2015 c300 4matic for $419 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer.

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>> racism is when somebody comes up and says -- that's racism. >> we know that. >> no. the difference is -- i am going to brooks brothers. my mother will go into, used to go into a place. they would follow her around. now do i think it is racist. i think you are ignorant. a white lady telling me what is racist to you. that's not the same. >> that's the same. >> you don't have to be black to know what racism is. >> yes you, do. yes, you do.

>> that was whoopi. rosie o'donnell. the rest of the view cast. that was pretty heated. back with me now. i don't know what they were doing -- one thing that i think is really important to understand about bias and, and relation to racism i doesn't require malice. we talk about it as if it requires you to consciously i hate this person, nurturing hate for people different than me. that's what it looks like. that's not what it looks like. >> there is a good question, whoopi says a white lady is telling me what is racist what is not. rosie, i am a gay american. kids of color. who is right there? >> i think that is an interesting dynamic there. because often times you do have a lot of white liberals who seem to think they're more offended and think that, that they know what is best because of name calling or they want to be cool, we are down with the struggle or

whatever. so that was an interesting, interesting dynamic. i don't think you see all the time. whoopi has an important point there. i think. it is important to distinguish, acts of racism. racism. the power over people. believing you are interior, superior, versus ignorance. a lot of ignorant people. >> degrees, right. not overt. you can't, you know, you are not made to sit in the back of the bus. implicit bias. >> right. >> understand legitimate cases. >> figure a we to work in a liberal into the conversation. >> it's true. they're the ones that think they're so enlightened. >> secondly. you raise an important point. impolice implic implicit. look at all the tests, i looked at. how they test. they don't give you time to thing. if you take the implicit bias test on line. split decisions you make. >> everybody. >> it's not equal, right.

black people have a bias that is roughly split. half, pro black. half of it is pro white. >> let me tell you. >> which is extraordinary. >> whites and east asians have strongest pro white anti-black biases. by yals iases strongest, 65 and. 18-24, ranged second in the age groups. everybody has it. some people have it more. >> generational too. coming from a different experience. unfortunately. >> what the data showed, very interesting as well. older people had it. also college aged kids were the second highest, group with the second highest rates of bias. pro white anti-black bias. we need to dig into. we seem to think that, it means something is solved. that its not what is happening. in fact the more we push it down. and pretend it doesn't exist. the more it becomes a problem. like a weed. it is like a weed. weed the garden one week.

we are done for the season. weed are never going to come back. >> can't tell you how many conversations i had. why are you stirring the pot? why are you pulling the race card? just because we are discussing it. just because you are talking about it doesn't mean you are stirring it up. we talk about, like, it doesn't mean we are stirring up mortgage crisis. >> well, that's true. except this is something an exception, the mortgage crisis is tangible. >> the effects are tangible. >> it's true. if we move forward. we need to start concentrating on what we do. when we encounter the conversations or encounter kinds of uncomfortable situations. it starts with -- enhancing the positive experiences and also how you handle it.

>> we hear about the race card. do we all carry the race card? >> do you have one? >> no. >> let me show you. it's black. >> i don't know if i have it. i am offended that people are pretending it is a game. it is not a game. it has a historical precedent. and a presence in, in, emperical data. this is real. so all i am saying let's constantly talk about it so we can get to a point. >> do you think the first family, the president should talk more about race. he gets criticized for not doing more, not talking more about the subject. >> no. i think this is difficult for him. he its the president of the united states first. and you know some people are going to say, no, a black man first. no he is not. president of the united states

first. >> he is obviously both. >> i understand that. i am saying, if he starts veering off into having these racial conversations all the time, in the way he has been doing it. it further divides this country. he is not doing it from a, from a point of twhut do we need to do to move forward. >> how can you say -- >> we just said we can't climb into somebody's mind. >> true. in every situation. racially charged. he has fallen on the side. not white america. black america. >> everybody says the black man isn't going to do it who is going to do it. i got to go. we'll be back. i'm sure we will be talking about this more. thank you. when we come back. 17-year-old, african-american leonard lacy's death ruled a suicide after he was found hanging from a swing set near his home in a small north carolina town. his mother says something does not add up. now the fbi is involved. my interview with leonard's mom, claudia next.

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suicide in the small town in north carolina may not be what it first appeared. a 17-year-old african-american was found hanging from a swing

set not far from his home. lennon's mother doesn't think he killed himself. now the fbi is stepping in. joining me now is, claudia lacy, lennon lacy's mother. and the family attorney. thank you. >> thank you. >> what do you think happened to your son? >> at this point i have no other choice but to believe it was a hanging. lennon was a -- a vibrant child. just into his football. focused on it, his main objective. he loved football. even from a young toddler. redskins were his favorite football team. that's what he tried to become. an nfl football player. play for the redskins one day, hopefully. >> you think he had everything to live for. >> he did. >> beyond your imagination that he took his own life. >> yes, it is. it its. you called it a lynching.

that has racial overtones. do you think it -- >> like i said it is separated. desegregated. you can sense it. tot not so much see it. you could see it if you lived there long enough. >> he had just broken up with his girlfriend. an older white woman. she was a white woman. how do you think it factored into this at all? >> it could have. >> how so? >> her background for one. the, the company she kept. also the fact that she was older. and more experienced. and, ex-husband. yes. >> and different ethnicity. she was white. he is black. >> yes, yes, yes. >> did that make a difference? >> yes. >> was that an issue in the town. >> an issue in the town. also with the family. >> her family. >> my family. >> my family. i personally tacked to hlked to one-on-one. mother to mother. she has three children. 11-year-old daughter.

i put it to her like this. i said if my 17-year-old came to your house. wouldn't talk to your 11-year-old. how would you feel? same scenario. thinking she would think of it as the, for my, from my ponlt of view. >> and there was nothing really to say. except -- either change. stop. it didn't. >> you said, you believe there were too many inconsistencies like the sneakers he was wearing when he left. you said the sneakers were different when they found him. the ones that he had on when they found him. >> they weren't his. two sizes too small. no shoelaces. >> that's not feasible. not logical. he would not put himself through that kind of ton ennis shoes, t sizes two small. he left home with a brand new pair of jordans i bought him for school. >> alan. you have lost all confidence in local law enforcement, correct?

why is that? >> it's correct. what this family wants is a diligent, professional unbiased investigation. what you had here was an investigation that only lasted for a few hours. before they were ready to term it as the a suicide. an investigation that didn't even include photos of the scene. going to the medical examiner's office. nor all the evidence. the shoes. an investigation that didn't include any forensic tests being done or recommended. we saw in the reports that the -- that the medical examiner indicated the local police did not want to do an autopsy. and the local police did not provide the dimensions of the swing. and, you talk about a police department that has never had an african-american. >> the swing set. >> then someone, some one, there a woman, right. who was, a small, small, called 911, helped get him down. everyone is wondering how can

someone, as small as her, get him down. >> yeah. >> that's right. they expect this family to believe. very small woman was able. talking to the 911 operator take him down from the swing. while talking on the phone. and then, supposedly attempted, cpr on him. though, he had rigor mortis had set in. ant bites. scratches. confusion on his forehead. this they didn't acknowledge. >> what happens now? how do you think the fbi can help? >> i think the fbi can help. because they can thoroughly investigate the leads that -- that have come from the community. certainly there is forensic testing that can be done. all along, one question has been -- you know, the manner in how, how is it possible that he could do that to himself. and you know? >> how did he get up there,

right? >> on top of all of this. lennon's grave was desecrated. when you found out, what did you think? >> i was in shock, of course. the question was why? he is already dead. let him rest. why would you do that? it's not going to bring him back. it its not going to change anything. he is where he is. i didn't understand it. i didn't get it. why would you do something like that? and it was -- unless it was anger. >> thank you, claudia. >> you know from him dying or whatever the reason may be. >> thank you, claudia. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. [vet] two yearly physicals down.

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