t will be found. the worry i have is it may not solve the mystery. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com this is cnn breaking news. >> good evening, everyone. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. breaking news. reports that smoke has been seen on an island in the java sea where a frantic search is going on right now after the latest tragedy in the skies. almost ten months after flight 370 vanishes now another plane disappears and hundreds of loved ones fear the worst now. here's what we know at this moment. air traffic controllers lost contact with airasia flight 8501 at 7:24 sunday morning singapore time. the pilot asked to change course and fly at a higher altitude because of thunderstorms. the plane had 162 people on board and was flying from the indonesian city of surabaya to

singapore. unlike flight 370, it went missing over the java sea in a heavily traveled shipping channel with shallow waters. 1,126 searchers are deployed from australia, singapore, malaysia south korea, japan, and new zealand. along with indonesia's navy army air force, and police force. and the "uss sampson" is also on its way to the java sea, where it's already tuesday morning. we have an expert team standing by to answer all of your questions. make sure you use the hashtag 8501 qz. but i want to get to cnn's reporters in the search zone. andrew stevens is in surabaya indonesia. will ripley joins us from beijing. and cnn aviation correspondent richard quest here with me this evening in the studio. hello to all of you gentlemen. i'm going to start with you, andrew. reports of smoke we have seen, that has been seen on an island in the asia air flight 8501 search area. what do you know about the smoke? >> don, that's the key. within the search zone.

remember this search zone continues to widen rather than focus down at the moment. so the authorities really are looking at every possible angle on where this plane could be. reported smoke from a small island on the eastern -- excuse me on the western side of that java sea closer to where i'm here in surabaya. what we know so far is smoke has been reported it has been confirmed by the search and rescue authorities. they are sending people to investigate. they're still on their way at this stage. but as i say, don, this search area grows ever bigger. 156,000 square kilometers now split down to over 13 zones. as they just try to find out what happened to the fate of this plane. and there are now something like 40 ships, 40 surface vessels, 30 planes 30 aerial reconnaissance in the air. so it gives you an idea of just how big this search is becoming.

so many countries are involved. but as yet as we go through day three of this search, nothing concrete don. >> and the u.s. of course now involved in this as well. andrew it's still being called a search and rescue mission. we're going to get to those details very soon. but what is airasia telling these families right now? >> well they're telling them pretty much what they can. and this is the frustrating thing. there is no new information at the moment. the authorities, they're basically posting what they know what the search area is. and all airasia can do really is relay that message. they have specific people targeted with specific family members to try to keep that information flow going. there are professionals on standby here being provided by both the authorities and by airasia counseling services as well. but you can imagine, don, the frustration. there's just been a briefing actually just in the room behind me in the crisis center that's close to the media and you can see, though through windows, it's just a heart-wrenching

scene. one of the scenes was a father with his hand on the shoulder of what looked like his son. the father just weeping copiously. and so many people here in surabaya perhaps 90 members of -- or 90 people in the community here in surabaya have relatives. i want to read you one tweet. it is from the daughter of the pilot and it is so poignant. it just says "dad please come home. i still need you. please return dad. you have to come home." that gives you an idea don, the anguish, the frustration, what's going through their minds at moment as we wait for concrete information. >> we're going to discuss more in the coming hours. it is heartbreaking. i want to get to will ripley. will is in beijing, china. the weather in the area is it hampering the search effort at all? >> in this part of the world, don, it is monsoon season and while the weather you're talking about rain if you look at the forecast and the weerth pattern in the area it's thunderstorms,

some of them very strong predicted for the next several days. that means big waves. and as we know from mh370, don, when you have a visual search and you're up in a plane and you're looking down at the waves, the white caps on the waves can look like debris it can really play tricks on your mind after a while. and when so much of this search in the critical days after a plane is presumed to have gone into the water, you're looking for floating debris but every day that passes there's less and less debris on the surface, don. so the weather certainly not helping right now. >> stand by. richard quest, i can't believe here we are talking about this again. there are many theories and speculation. we're going to discuss that throughout the coming hours on cnn. what do we know about what happened to 8501? >> he we don't know thatch other than the fact the plane took off. it headed toward singapore. i'm going down to the basics. the plane took off. it headed to singapore. it requested a left-hand turn and a climb. the left-hand turn was approved. the climb wasn't. and then it goes missing. and we know there are

thunderstorms in the area. they are really the only facts we have got. i am not surprised that it's taking quite so long to locate any wreckage. it is a large area by any definition. the plane was at altitude. so it's going to be more tricky. it's not as if the plane is like asiana or something like that where the plane came down on landing and you actually had it there. this came out of the sky by all accounts or what seems likely. and therefore, the search area is by definition going to be large. >> let's talk about the smoke that has been spotted. local news is reporting that. and also it is a dolphin helicopter crew indonesian navy dolphin helicopter crews are saying they found smoke on a small island in the search area. what does this mean? what should we read if anything into this? >> the implication would be that somehow the plane had crashed on to land and what you're looking at is the smoke and the smoldering thereafter. it's quite a while after the

incident -- that makes me concerned. but as in all these incidents they're going to trace every possible lead. we saw that with 370. we saw it with 447. remember it took several days with 447 before they saw the first piece of wreckage. it's going to take that time just to get the assets into the region before you start searching. it's a methodical slow process. >> the fewest aviation crashes in 80 years, but the most deaths in 2014. what's going on here? >> and what a beautiful example of how statistics tell truth and statistics lie because you have yes, the fewer number of incidents, but of those incidents you have three which raise that number to the largest number since 2005. 17 370, and 85 the airasia incident. those three will make up more than 50% of that number of fatalities. so it's not as accurate as it

seems to point to those numbers. >> all right. our thanks to will and also andrew stevens. i want you to stick around though, richard quest. i want to bring in now jeffrey thomas, editor in chief of "airline ratings.com. he joins us via skype from perth, australia. jeffrey, what do you make of this smoke that's spotted on this small island in the search area? >> look don, as we found with mh370, they were finding all sorts of debris oil slicks smoke in the south china sea, and the plane wasn't there anywhere near the south china sea. i'm very skeptical at this stage. i really want to see some concrete evidence before we put too much store in these sightings. i think we're going to get a lot of misinformation unfortunately from this search. >> as we learned with mh370 as well. i want you to take a look

geoffrey at this screen grab. reportedly it leaked by an indonesian air traffic controller not verified by cnn. it appears to show airasia flight 8501 was rising in altitude but was losing speed and was at a velocity that was too slow to sustain flight. what does that tell us? >> indeed that came from navaid indonesia. we obtained that. and what it shows is that as we know they requested an altitude climb. it was denied. however, it shows the aircraft traveling through 36,300 feet. the arrow you see indicates it's climbing. but the real thing is the speed. now, on the screen grab it's in knots, which is 353. in fact that converts to 406 miles per hour. what we also know that the plane was traveling at 540 miles per hour. so in a very short space time a couple of minutes, it has lost 134 miles per hour of ground

speed. my colleagues, a-320 check captains, tell me at that altitude at the aircraft's weight that speed is not enough to sustain flight. they believe it's possible if this screen grab is correct that this would indicate an aerodynamic stall, a high-altitude upset similar to what we saw with air france 447. >> richard, i know you want to get in there. what is a typical procedure for a pilot to gain air speed? >> i just wanted to come up to geoffrey if i may, don. >> go ahead. >> geoffrey with that reduction in speed and bearing in mind the 320's alpha protection and envelope protections that it has, that would suggest an extraneous incident that bled off the speed because obviously if the pilot was misflying the aircraft then the protections would come into play if it was in normal law. >> indeed.

and this is -- it is very perplexing. and the pilots that i've spoken to, you know they're shaking their head. they don't understand what has happened because you're absolutely right. the protections should be there. however, you know they say if by chance he has somehow blundered into the middle of a massive thunder cell misread the radar, got a bad return on the radar, then possibly all of that goes out the door. >> stand by. quickly, if you can answer the question. you're talking about the redundancy in the system. but what is the typical procedure to get out of a stall if someone is going into a stall? >> oh it depends on the severity. the traditional standard procedure is lower the nose -- bearing in mind the stall happens because there's not enough air flow. so the typical procedure is to get speed up. the way you get speed up lower the nose. that will pick up the speed and the plane will start to climb again. but if it's a very deep stall, if the tail is stalled so you've no longer got any forward

motion then that becomes much more difficult because can't -- this is what they discovered with 447. you can't get the nose down. >> all right. stick with me. richard quest, geoffrey thomas thank you very much. in perth, australia. we've got a lot more to come on the hunt for flight 8501. our experts are standing by to answer all of your questions. make sure you tweet us using the #8501qz. and we've got another big story tonight. the sony hack that turned into an international incident. what if north korea wasn't behind the hack after all? what if it was an inside job? i'm going to talk to an expert who says the culprit may be a former sony employee. we'll be right back. get ready for some german engineered holiday excitement. at the volkswagen sign-then-drive event. right now, for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a new volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta and the precisely engineered passat tdi. ah, the gift of clean diesel. for the new volkswagen on your list this year just about all you need, is a pen. festive, isn't it? hurry in to the sign then drive event

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of course the breaking news missing flight 8501. already mid-morning on tuesday off the coast of indonesia, where the search for airasia flight 8501 is under way. let's review what we know about the missing jet. joining me now is matthew wald aviation safety expert and former "new york times" reporter. also mary schiavo, former inspector general of the aviation -- david susy author of "malaysia airlines flight 370." and captain tim taylor a military vehicle special specialist. and richard quest. mary-i want to get to you. so far there's been an oil slick, a faint ping. they have been discounted though. now local reports of smoke. that smoke has been seen on an island in the search area. how careful do we need to be with these reports? >> we need to be pretty careful because it's been now a long time since the crash.

i think there was 8,200-some kilograms of fuel on board. not completely full, but that's a lot of full. and they were still in the beginning of the flight. so it would be a hot and long-burning fire. but this is a long time for smoke to be rising. but it's possible. particularly if it was in a densely wooded area. it's possible but i wouldn't put -- i wouldn't just assume that this is it. >> david, how long would we know if it's actually smoke from the plane or how soon would we know if there's -- >> at this point -- >> and three days later. >> yeah, three days later wouldn't make sense to me. i've been at accident scenes three days later and there's still smoldering going on but i wouldn't call it smoke. unless as mary said there ways afire that caught on to the surrounding vegetation. but i would think after that time it wouldn't be intense enough to cause that black really distinct smoke from an aircraft accident. >> as geoffrey thomas says we'll get a lot of these reports and some of them may render something and some may not. i want to get to matthew.

i want to ask about that leaked screen grab. the pilot asked for permission to climb to 38,000 feet because of poor weather. air traffic control then denied that request. now the screen grab shows the pilot may have ascended anyway. what does that tell you? >> the screen grab this is really early, and if i were an investigator in this case i would look at the screen grab and say not what's in it but what is it telling me. what it's telling me is it came off the airplane. the numbers in there came off the airplane. there have been previous crashes where the crash occurred because the airplane's internal sensors weren't working right. we know what the screen grab says the air speed was. we don't know what the actual air speed was. maybe it's a clue about a malfunction. or maybe it really had slowed down. >> i wonder what circumstances, richard, would a pilot ignore the air traffic control saying don't climb and they'll do it anyway. >> in extremis. when there's danger. when the aircraft -- when he has

to do it because there's grave peril of the aircraft. but even then you don't do that sort of maneuver. the captain is already in charge. air traffic control is offering an advisory. the captain has to make those decisions for the protection of the aircraft and those on board. so if he believes that it's necessary to make that climb at that moment to save life then he's of course -- he will do it. but of course he will have to telegraph to anybody and everybody nearby that he's doing it because of course of their separations. you don't just drive your car down the wrong way down the interstate. without sort of telling everybody you're about to do it. >> if they had communications with him or they saw him on radar they'd be saying what are you doing, they'd be trying to speak to him, right? >> right. and air traffic then once it's an emergency, you look in the airman information manual what it tells you in there is emergency procedure is that you do notify and then at that point if you declared an emergency air traffic's responsibility is to get rid of everything else in your way. you go where you want to go and

they'll get rid of the traffic. but in this case they didn't. and so that's where the problem lies. >> usually it's a domino effect right, mary? because usually it's not just one thing that happens. it's a confluence of different things that happen to cause an air disaster. >> well i agree. and i was suspicious about that because so many things can happen. if he was going ahead and climbing after air traffic control said no you would assume that you had traffic above you. and then that would set off another chain reaction. that would set off your collision avoidance system, and that would do that on both planes which would further complicate things. so it doesn't appear that that went off. so i'm wondering if something was happening to force that climb, some kind of weather condition or something with the planes with the attitude indicators for example. that seemed unusual the pilot would do that because of a risk of mid-air. >> tim, i'm sure you heard of one of the daughters of one of the pilots on social media

saying dad, please come home. how -- with the temperature of the waters the weather conditions the type of water there, how deep it is the waves and all that how -- should families be holding out hope? how much hope should they be holding out? >> hope is what -- hope is hope. so yes, i would imagine they should hold out some. but as days progress exposure in the oceans is just really tough on bodies. they just don't -- they can't survive in the open ocean. but that being said this -- the miracle on the hudson you know those are all things that hold hope out in people's minds, and you can't tell them not to hope. >> but we talk about miracle on the hudson. of course we know the hudson is a loss more placid than an ocean, right? i mean these are enormous waves and the conditions are different. it would be great if there were survivors. >> it would be awesome if there were survivors. it would be wonderful for the families. but at this particular time if it was me i would be planning

and thinking toward the future that this is not going to be many survivors. >> i hate to even -- i hate to even say that. i'm going to ask this to matthew. the fact that this is a budget airlines does this make any difference, that this was a budget airlines fairly i think new to asia? is there a difference there? >> it's early to say. but historically even in the united states fast-growing airlines have problems. not so much that their budget, but they're adding pilots they're adding planes they're adding mechanics. they don't have a mature infrastructure. they don't have a chain of senior people and junior people that are coming along. growth is a risk factor. >> of course we don't know at this point. again, there's a lot to learn about this. we don't know exactly what happened to this plane. we're going to continue to talk about it, though to try to figure out exactly what did happen. stay with me everyone. a lot more to discuss here tonight. disappearance of flight 8501. painful reminder to families who lost loved ones on malaysia airlines flight 370 vanished back in march.

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the disappearance of flight 8501 a disturbing reminder of another plane that disappeared from the sky, malaysia airlines flight 370, which vanished more than nine months ago. not a trace of that jet has been found. joining me now via skype is sarah bajak. her partner phillip wood was a passenger on board flight 370. sarah, how are you doing tonight? >> i'm stabilizing a little bit. the last two days were pretty rough. >> i can imagine when you hear

about -- when you heard about flight 8501 going missing, it had to obviously -- i'm sure it's still fresh in your mind but it brings it all back. what was your reaction? >> i just started to shake. kind of like when i heard the first news. you know, it all -- the emotions just repeat. and then you just instantly feel this incredible ache it's a physical pain through your whole body and just imagining what all those families are feeling as well. you know i can imagine. unfortunately, i know exactly what they're going through, and it's horrible. and now the same complete lack of news. you know it's unbelievable. >> do you -- same part of the world. but you don't think that there's -- there can be anything that's related to 370, right? >> i think there are -- there

has to be something that ties these things together. i continue to believe that mh17 is related as well. you know is that a systemic failure in the small airlines' ability to conduct themselves responsibly and then kind of cover it up? that could be what's being covered up. could be the link. it could be something more sinister than that. we honestly don't know. because we still have absolutely no facts to base any judgments on. >> yeah. we haven't gotten a lot of answers. what continues to frustrate you the most about flight 370? is it the lack of information? >> it's the lack of cooperation. you know i understand that they may not have been able to solve the problem. but it genuinely feels as if we have been lied to. not just the family members but society at large. you know there is no question in my mind that there is some sort of a cover-up that's gone on. now, i don't exactly understand

why. it could just be covering up negligence. but you know the lack of ability to close things down emotionally is just exhausting. >> sarah bajc you're courageous. thank you very much for joining us this evening. >> thank you. >> danica weekes lost her husband paul on flight 370. and she joins me now via skype. so danica as you -- you know we had planned to have you on the show tonight long before airasia flight 8501 went missing. how are you doing? >> not well. as sarah just said the last few days have been torment. it's brought everything back. we're just reliving what we've gone through march 8th. and a few days on and the day it happened i had to just go to bed. i totally just couldn't function any longer. and i think i sort of hoped that

i would wake up and they would have news and they'd have some peace. because this is -- it's horrible. it's a horrible nightmare. >> yeah. and how are your sons doing? >> my son lincoln is missing his dad enormously. and christmas was a very hard time for us. he -- he just -- he's extremely emotional. and you know in part because i am too. paul's birthday was on the 22nd of december, and then christmas as well. it's been a very hard time for us. and then this. and it's just brought it all back. and look i'm not coping very well. i'm just trying to do my best. but i just feel as sarah said i just feel what those families are going through, and it's horrible. you wouldn't wish this on your worst enemy. and to have it happen again and sort of have it -- you know watching every little piece of

news on qz 8501 i just -- it's like we're walking through it. there's oil slicks and sightings that haven't been confirmed. it's just bringing it all back again. and nine months. none of us are as strong as we used to be. >> you know when last we spoke to you you were wearing your husband's wedding ring around your neck and i think you're still doing it now. how do you keep paul part of your holiday? >> look i'm wearing the ring and i've never taken it off. i wear it every day. how was he part of the holiday? it's just been really hard. look i try not to be emotional in front of my children, and yet when i look at them is when i'm most emotional that he's missing out on so much. particularly jack. you know he knows what christmas is about this year and he's just progressing in his milestones, and paulie's missing

every single one of them. it's heartbreaking. i spend my days trying not to be emotional in front of them but at the same time your heart just aches. you absolutely ache. and you just want to know anything. and i hope that with this latest flight that they can get some peace because you hope this is over in at least a couple of weeks because i would hate this to go on like it has for us. i hope they get to bring their loved ones home and do what's right for them and they can find some peace in this whole horrible event. >> speaking of the people involved cnn spoke with julie wang. she's a schoolteacher. and three of her students are on board, were on board flight 8501. i want you to listen what she told our rosa flores. here it is. >> it's hard to believe that it's really happened to -- to my students. we are still finding hope in

god. it's hard to believe. hopefully, they are safe. but i don't know. we are just praying now. >> is there anything you can say to ease the pain at this point to friends and family members of those on board that plane? >> you just have to call on your close friends and family. that's the only thing. i've been really lucky to have a great community that has surrounded you know come around me. and my mother and you know family have just supported me through this. and you really need them and you need to lean on them because they are the only way that you get through this. paul has blessed me with two beautiful children and i find you know i hold on to them and try to find joy in that that he's given me this amazing gift. but it's hard. and so just get your family or

friends around you. it's the only way you can get by. they have truly got me through this and have helped me thus far. >> and sarah, i understand that you're listening intently here to what danica is saying. what advice do you have for the families? >> same thing. surround yourself with people that you trust and control the media. you know don't let them interfere too much in your life because it's exhausting and you need to keep yourself healthy or you're not going to be able to cope. >> you know as we get ready to start a new year what are your hopes for the families of flight mh370? first to you, sarah, and then i'll ask danica. >> we want some closure. you know we talk to each other on a regular basis. we're constantly asking for news. and we just don't know anything at all. it's continuing to be a giant

mystery. and we really need to have some closure in our lives. >> danica? >> look i totally echo sarah's sentiments there. we just -- we want the truth. we want to know what happened because you just run these scenarios, and we will never find peace until we do what's right by our loved ones, and that's bring them home to us. and to find out what actually happened. we need to know the truth. and not just for us but for the flying public. this is a -- you know this is a plane that we don't know what happened to. we need to know what happened. and all i want -- you know my number one wish for 2015 is to bring paulie home to myself and our boys. >> danica sarah, thank you very much. our thoughts and prayers are with you. >> thank you. >> heartbreaking. and you wrote a book. you spoke to some of the family members.

there are hundreds of family members who feel the same way. >> yeah. very difficult. sarah and i spoke a little bit before that book got published. i wouldn't think of doing it without speaking with her about it first. it's just heartbreaking. it just really is heartbreaking. >> we'll be right back. [vet] two yearly physicals down. martha and mildred are good to go. here's your invoice, ladies. a few stops later, and it looks like big ollie is on the mend. it might not seem that glamorous having an old pickup truck for an office... or filling your days looking down the south end of a heifer but...i wouldn't have it any other way. lo ok at that, i had my best month ever. and earned a shiny new office upgrade. i run on quickbooks. that's how i own it.

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back now with our breaking

news coverage. airasia flight 8501 disappeared more than 48 hours ago, and so far we have more questions than answers. so back with me now matthew wald mary schiavo, david soucie, tim taylor and richard quest. matthew, my first question is you heard from the partner of a man who was on flight 370. she thinks there could be a connection between 370 and the missing flight 8501. i think what she says she thinks incompetence more than anything is a connection here. >> you don't know till you know. more and more of these crashes are going to be in places with fast-growing aviation like asia. it's hard to connect mh370, which seems to have proceeded from deliberate actions in the cockpit, to the airplane in the ukraine, which was taken out literally by external forces and in this case we're going to have to wait and see. it looks familiar right now because they haven't found the wreckage yet. but it usually takes a few days for a crash at sea before you find the wreckage.

you've got to find something floating. you've got to back-calculate where the current is taking it and then start looking underwater. >> richard, do you see a connection here? >> no. no i don't at the moment. you take malaysia airlines it's been around decades as an airline. it's been around since the founding of the state. so there's not an issue there. if you're talking about is fast-growing airlines like airasia in that part of the world, again, i don't necessarily see that. this captain had 20,000 hours and 6,000 on type. >> what can you tell us about airasia? we've been talking about it being a budget airlines. in the break we were talking about the ceo, who's really been out in front and communicating. what can you tell us about airasia? >> the analogy i would give is it's the southwest in southeast asia. the u.s. carrier southwest. it started the low-cost model. tony fernandez took a little airline that was going nowhere and was going bankrupt. >> he's the president.

>> yes. he took it over, managed to get the government to allow him to do it. he's fought every battle to get that airline into the air. and it's huge. and it's got subsidiaries in indonesia and in thailand and in other places. and he's got 160-odd a-320s with hundreds more on order. and he's got a long haul low-cost subsidiary airasia x. and it hasn't got a blemish. there's not been a safety issue concerning airasia. >> the question is about regulations. mary schiavo, do they have the same regulations we have here? >> no not exactly. every nation has their own regulations, and there are some differences. you know ours are considered -- we think ours are a little tougher than others. but it's not the regulation that's are so important. what's important is the enforcement of the regulations and whether you have tough regulators who go out and do inspections and safety enforcement, et cetera. and i think that the performance that we saw out of the malaysia government after 370 was abysmal. so i think that enforcement

might be a big issue in malaysia and i'm not -- i'm not so sure that there aren't connections between at least two of the three malaysia crashes because some of it concerns decision-making. decision-making to fly over a war area for example, delta said no we're not going to do it. and malaysia did. and here going in this weather. what did the airline consider? and did they have sufficient weather resources within the airline to make an informed decision? so i mean i'm going to be in the questioning category until proven otherwise. >> i want to get this in because this is just in to cnn. the search area for missing airasia flight qz8501 yet again expanded. cnn indonesia reports authorities have expanded the the search area in the ongoing search and rescue operation for the missing aircraft. the search area contains 13 sector zones now. until now the search area consisted of 11 zones. what do we make of that? >> i make that they haven't found anything yet. they haven't found any debris. >> this is what happens.

>> you expand. if you take a search zone you want to take a wedge of pie, the tip of the pie is the incident and every hour that goes by that pie gets bigger. and as the pie gets bigger the area gets bigger. >> how are the factors -- how does this differ than mh370? it's not as deep a water. >> not as deep water. correct. there's a lot of islands in the area a lot of traffic. a lot of possibilities to find debris. and it is a searchable area. that depth, it may take some type but they can search it a lot faster than 370. 370 is searching mountain ranges. and this is a lot smaller. >> and the currents and so on -- >> one big difference. we've got no reason to believe it's not where it is. i mean that's the core difference. whether it's two days or three days or four days with 370, there was a moment when we knew it wasn't where it was supposed to be despite reports of wreckage. we have no reason to believe this is not where it was meant to be. >> the only thing that led us to believe that it did continue us

to fly was the inmarsat data and this aircraft was not equipped with that either. there's still some question in my mind of how long it flew after it lost contact. >> right. but that will get narrowed down. and this is not rocket science. they will find it and search. it may take time. everything on the water takes 10 times, 20 times longer than it does on the land. this is going, you know, pretty much according to what it usual usually goes. >> matthew, i don't know if this is your bailiwick. if we can put it up the u.s. will send a destroyer, the "uss sampson" to aid in the search. at what point does this search go from a rescue mission to a recovery mission? >> well at what point do they publicly give up on survivors? we have a cultural bias toward hope. but it's not realistic at some point. it's not realistic now. >> we were just saying that earlier. i said i hate to hear you say that about the families for hope but you were saying that you must be realistic at some point. >> mm-hmm. >> yes.

common sense. i'm not trying to be unpleasant about it. but there comes a point when you have to say with the best hope and will in the world it's not feasible, practical, or realistic. >> when we come back we're going to talk more about the search for flight 8501 plus another mystery. the sony hack attack. could it be -- could it have been an inside job? we're going to talk about that next. is here, which means it's time for the volkswagen sign-then-drive event. for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a german-engineered volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta... and the 2015 motor trend car of the year all-new golf. if you're wishing for a new volkswagen this season... just about all you need is a finely tuned... pen. hurry in to the sign then drive event and get a five-hundred dollar new year's bonus on select new volkswagen models. offer ends january 2nd. narrator: these are the tennis shoes skater kid: whoa narrator: that got torture tested by teenagers and cried out for help.

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the sony pictures hack launched an international incident and turned the slapstick comedy "the interview" into a must-see. but what if north korea wasn't to blame for the hack attack after all? what if the real culprit was closer thome? that's what sam glines thinks. he's the ceo of north security. you conducted your own investigation and you determined it was an inside job involving sony employees. so who do you say did this, and what facts and evidence do you have that brings you to this conclusion? >> hi don. so when we look at this we look at motive, right? and what's important to note based on our investigation is that the date that we have

nailed in terms of when data was moved off of sony and was -- was far earlier than the timeline that has been revealed so far. our date points to october 21st. when we look at the over 100 terabytes of data that was moved off, which is an incredible amount of data. there was quite a bit of information, hr-related information that was included in that release of files. what we saw was that there were a few suspects we had been looking at that were not included in that release of information, and these suspects have -- at least one had ties to critical knowledge of sony systems. ip addresses, credentials, et cetera and also had motive for being what i would say -- would be upset at sony due to reorganization that happened within the department as well as

sympathetic to the community in terms of sony's work to combat -- >> so what you're saying is because of the time and all the information that was gained by the hackers you believe it was an inside job by an employee. so then where does north korea play into this? when did they become involved? >> sure. we believe north korea was involved but not until after the data was moved off of sony's premise. now, does that mean that north korea was working with the attackers and the hacker groups preincident or post-incident? we believe it was after. we don't see any evidence that -- today that north korea was the driver of the movement of the data off. so we would see north korea as a beneficiary of the information that was moved off of the network. >> okay sam. so let's -- let's make this

concise for our viewers. so you believe october 21st is when the first information was removed from sony's system correct? >> correct. >> by who you -- you say it was an employee right? >> that's correct. a former employee. correct. >> a former employee. so then you say north korea was the beneficiary of that information that was taken. so if it was october 21st when the first information was stolen, then when did sony -- what was the date that sony became involved? >> sony -- december 2nd i believe -- >> i'm sorry. when north korea. sorry. when north korea became involved. >> it was in early december was when the breach was announced. we believe north korea -- because the first demand that came from the attackers was a ransom demand. it was nothing around the movie "the interview." so it was one to two weeks post december 2nd. call it early to mid december when north korea took advantage of the situation, was able to benefit from the data that was

released. >> are you saying the employee -- did the employee sell the information to north korea? what are you saying here? how did they become involved? >> we don't know. that part of the investigation we're continuing our work. but i don't know how north korea tied themselves to the original leakers. but this is a community of hackers that has a long reach and it would not be impossible at all for north korea to involve and provide guidance to those that had lifted the data and be able to perhaps influence their messaging. >> okay. so as i understand today you met with the fbi. can you tell us about that meeting? >> we provided our initial findings to the fbi, and we'll continue to provide law

enforcement with our information. >> okay. so what are the next steps here? >> so the next steps for norse is really to do two things. one, we want to help educate enterprises that the insider threat is a very real one and one that should be taken seriously. and the second is to provide the complete data set to law enforcement so that they can run that through their traps and confirm what we believe to be the -- really the driver and the motivation for the attack. and that's what law enforcement is here for, and we're simply providing information that we have based on our research. >> so what do you say to your detractors those who question your theory? >> to those i would say that we are -- we are very good at this work. we're in the business of

security intelligence. and i think one needs to take a step back and just look at what actually happened with respect to the timeline. and if the movie "the interview" was the driver for this hack why wasn't it -- why wasn't it part of the initial demand from the attackers? why was the initial demand money? and why was the information taken really designed to embarrass sony and cripple sony versus something that would be more typical for a nation state? >> all right. sam glines ceo of norse security thank you very much. we appreciate you. coming up we're going to get back to our breaking news. what happened to the airasia flight. the mystery right now. but we do know the plane was heading into bad weather. when air traffic control lost contact with it. but is that enough to bring down a jet? our experts are going to weigh in coming up.

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this is cnn breaking news. >> it is 11:00 p.m. on the east coast, 11:00 a.m. in surabaya indonesia, where the hunt