win tonight. that's all for this edition of "reliable sources." but i'll see you online all week at cnn.com. send me a tweet about what you thought of today's show. "state of the union" starts right now. a terror threat against western shopping malls. rudy giuliani becomes a lightning rod for the republican party. this is "state of the union." this is cnn breaking news. good morning from washington. i'm gloria borger. breaking this hour homeland security secretary jeh johnson on the terror threat facing american shopping malls. rudy giuliani under fire for his stunning comments about president obama. former deputy defense secretary paul wolfowitz on the president and terror. and republican governor john kasich on his white house ambitions. but first, an al

qaeda-linked terror group is calling for attacks on shopping malls here in the united states specifically the mall of america in minnesota, as well as shopping malls in britain and canada. in a taped message the somali based group al shabab talks about its december 2013 attack at a mall in kenya that left more than 60 people dead. and with us this morning, we have the department of homeland security secretary, jeh johnson. thanks so much for being with us this morning. i have to get right to the news this morning, which is that an al qaeda-linked terror group, al shabaab, is publicly calling for attacks now on shopping malls in the united states as well as overseas. they've specifically targeted the mall of america in minnesota. in a video they have released. what can you tell us about how operationally advanced this threat is, mr. secretary? >> gloria, this latest statement

from al shabab reflects the new phase we've evolved to in the global terrorist threat in that you have groups such as al shabab isil publicly calling for independent actors in their homelands to carry out attacks. we're beyond the phase now where these groups would send foreign operatives into countries after being trained someplace. we're now at a stage where it is all the more important in our counterterrorism efforts that we have a whole government approach. we have the military response through an international coalition, but there's also law enforcement and homeland security which is why the summit we had this week on countering violent extremism in our communities is all the more important. i've personally been to minneapolis to meet with islamic community leaders there, and so our law enforcement homeland security engagements here at home given how this terrorist threat has evolved, are becoming all the more important. >> there are reports that isis

is trying to recruit al shabab and that that may be part of the problem in minneapolis. is that your read of it? >> we're in an environment right now where i suspect these groups are competing for attention. isil has received a lot of attention through their very effective use of the internet, social media, and we're now seeing, for example, aqap in its most recent edition of "inspire" a whole chapter on how to build a non-metallic device as well as this most recent public statement. so my concern is that these groups were actually competing for attention and for fundraising and recruitment. >> not only that, saying to their members, do it at home. you can do this at home and you don't need to travel. >> we're in a new phase in that these groups are relying more and more on independent actors to become inspired, drawn to the cause and -- >> and the internet, through the internet.

>> -- carry owl small-scale attacks on their own through their effective use of the internet. so that's why it's critical that we work in the communities where these groups might be able to recruit to help develop the counter narrative, to build trust with law enforcement, with homeland security, with state and local law enforcement. >> how seriously are you taking this threat? >> i am very concerned about the serious potential threat of independent actors here in the united states. we've seen this now in europe. we've seen this in canada. >> but specifically against the mall of america. >> any time a terrorist organization calls for an attack on a specific place, we've got to take that seriously. and so through our intelligence bulletins, through working with state and local law enforcement through working with the fbi we take this kind of thing very seriously. >> and i just want to read you one more thing on this. this is a statement from the mall of america today. mall of america is aware of a threatening video that was released which included a mention and images of the mall.

we take any potential threat seriously and respond appropriately. we have implemented extra security precautions. some may be noticeable to guests and others won't. what are you telling americans who might be planning a trip to the mall this sunday? >> what we're telling the public in general is you've got to be vigilant. we just revamped our "if you see something, say something" campaign at the super bowl last month. and so public engagement, public awareness is critical. americans should still feel that they are free to associate. they are free to go to public gatherings. but it's critical that we have public awareness and public participation in our efforts. >> are they safe in going to the mall of america today? if you want to go take your kids to the mall of america? >> i would say that if anyone is planning to go to the mall of america today, they've got to be particularly careful.

and as the statement that you read indicates, there will be enhanced security there that will be apparent to people who -- >> federal security as well? >> there will be enhanced security there. but public vigilance, public awareness an public caution in situations like this is particularly important. and it's the environment we're in, frankly. it's all the more reason why i need a budget and i'm assuming you're going to ask me about that. >> i will ask you about that right now. of course, this comes down at a time when republicans in congress are threatening to shut down your department in a week over a fight on immigration. if it were to shut down a week from now, what would that do to national security? how would that impact a discussion like the one we've just been having about al shabab and fighting terrorism in this country >> in a bunch of ways. first of all, it's absurd that we're even having this conversation about congress's inability to fund homeland security in these challenging times.

but, if by the end of the week congress has not funded the department of homeland security, we will have to furlough some 30,000 people, mostly at headquarters, people on the front lines, aviation security, maritime security will be forced to come to work without a paycheck, and so for the working men and women of my department to have to work without a paycheck is very significant, very serious and congress needs to appreciate that. our grant-making activities to state and local law enforcement, to commissioners, sheriffs, chiefs grinds to a halt. fema in the midst of this very harsh winter right now will have to furlough something like 80% of its permanent appropriated workers. >> are you talking to each other? are you -- they were off last week. right? >> they were off last week but the week before and the week before that i've been on the hill constantly talking to republicans and democrats about

the -- on the house and senate side about the significance of funding the department of security right now. the thing that frankly is frustrating to me when i go to the senate, they say, it's not us, it's the house. go over to the house side, talk to them. i go to the house and they say, we passed our bill, it's not us, it's the senate. so they're literally doing this right now. we have, i think, four or five working days left to get this right. and so i'll be back on the hill again, i'm sure. i'm hoping someone will exercise some leadership to get the public for the good of the public safety a budget for the department of homeland security. >> i have a couple other areas i just want to get to. that is, you also have a problem on the legal front when it comes to immigration. a federal judge temporarily stopped your plan to start processing illegal immigrants. i'm assuming the administration plans an appeal to that. how soon will we see that? >> yes. this is what appellate courts are for. >> when will you do this appeal?

>> we will be appealing and seeking an emergency stay probably on monday, tomorrow. and i expect that we'll prevail. you have to consider the position this injunction leaves us in, this judge's decision in texas leaves us in. the judge himself said in his opinion he does not quarrel with the secretary's ability to prioritize who we remove, who we deport from this country. we're focused on deporting convicted criminals, threats to public safety, threats to border security. and there is a population of people who have been from this country for years who are not priorities and will not be deported in any administration republican or democrat. and the net effect of this decision is we are not allowed to try to encourage them to come out of the shadows. they have to remain in the shadows. >> right. you're going to appeal and say allow us to start doing this again? >> we will appeal and we'll seek a stay so we can go back to implementation of our efforts to build accountability in the

non-documented community. >> and let me get to -- >> from a law enforcement perspective, that is a very important thing to do so that we know who these people are. >> let me get to one more subject. changing subjects on you a little bit. it's about rudy giuliani's comments this week. i know you actually worked for rudy giuliani. or worked alongside -- >> he hired me to be a federal prosecutor in 1988. that is correct. >> so you know him pretty well. >> i know mayor giuliani well. we were together this past 9/11. we did the rounds together in new york. i'm a new yorker, too. we did the rounds together at fire stations, police precincts in lower manhattan on 9/11. i'll just say that in my judgment mayor giuliani's comments were not helpful. his comments about the president of the united states, particularly in these times. >> not loving america. >> are not helpful. >> what do you mean by not helpful. >> his comments were not helpful

and i'm sorry to see statements like that coming from the former mayor whose response to 9/11 in 2001 i admired very much. his response to me is a model for how government leaders should respond in times of crisis. i think his most recent statements are very regrettable. >> thank you very much, mr. secretary. thanks for being with us this morning. >> thank you, gloria. and when we come back, america's mayor takes heat about the comments he made about america's president and puts his own republican party in a bind. the lightest or nothing. the smartest or nothing. the quietest or nothing. the sleekest... ...sexiest ...baddest ...safest, ...tightest, ...quickest... ...harshest... ...or nothing. at mercedes-benz, we do things one way or we don't do them at all.

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9/11. then a trez dengs candidate. presidential candidate. now rudy giuliani is a lightning rod. even within his own party, for saying that the president does not love america. he first made the comments at a private event, but then he went on tv to double down. >> i don't feel this love of america. his initial approach is to criticize this country and then afterwards to say a few nice things about us. >> in an interview with cnn's jim acosta, giuliani said, quote, i don't regret making that statement. i believe it." the republican party's presidential candidates were left holding the bag. this is supposed to be the new gop. the party that cares about these things. >> the stickiness of poverty is huge challenge for this country. >> if we can get immigration right we have a good chance of winning in 2016. >> when you have great economic success you need to share it with those who live in the shadows. >> evolve, adapt or die.

i think the party has to change. but this week that party was blind-sided by one of its most elite members. and joining me now to talk about this and the future of the party, is quite an eleap group. tom ridge, former pennsylvania governor and an adviser to jeb bush. george pataki who was governor of new york on 9/11. he's thinking about a presidential run. congressman darrell issa, a leading member of the house republican conservative caucus. thanks so much to all of you for being here with me. i'm going to go first to governor pataki because you were rudy giuliani's post-9/11 partner there in the state of new york. when you were governor, he was mayor. what did you think when you heard him utter those words, that the president doesn't love america? >> well, gloria, let me first say i was honored to work with rudy. we worked as closely as two leaders could at that time and i'm proud of how well we came

together and the american people came together after september 11th to get us through that horrible time. but, gloria, just think. you just had the homeland security secretary saying americans have to use extreme caution if we go to the mall of america in minneapolis, minnesota. we're talking about this? we should be taking about a proactive strategy to go after islamic terrorists overseas, what we have to do to grow our economy even more, and you're talking about the battle over immigration in washington instead of solutions how we can deal with those who are here illegally. >> isn't it rudy giuliani who stepped on that message that you're talking about? >> you know, the media loves to talk about somebody's comment. okay, they're having a school yard spat. who loves america? i don't doubt that the president loves america, but i do doubt that we're focusing on solving the problems in washington that we need to, and instead of fighting about stupid things

like this or measles vaccines or evolution, let's focus on coming together as we did after september 11th and solving the very real problems facing the american people. >> well -- >> our government doesn't work. >> well, you know, governor ridge, let me take this to you. i hear governor pataki blaming the media. in fact, governor scott walker tweeted this this morning, enough with the media's gotcha game. we started our american revival to talk about big, bold ideas. and i get that. but when a leading republican, who once ran for president, by the way, and was a serious candidate, says something like the president doesn't love america, is he a divider and not a uniter, as george w. bush might say? >> no, we certainly know that rudy is not concerned about how people respond to his -- to his sentiments. i, for one, disagree with my

friend. and rudy is a friend. he's a great and accomplished leader. i think there's enormous frustration. >> it was hateful. it was a hateful remark. >> but i think the point that george is trying to make and i'm trying to make is he's got a strong opinion. everybody knows rudy articulates his opinions that way. he's zealot about that. we need to get beyond that. he was expressing a frustration in a way that i don't agree with. i don't doubt the president's patriotism. it is not about love of country. it's about leadership or lack of leadership. the way he articulated it i don't particularly care for it. i don't think george cared for it. but it is typical rudy. >> typical rudy. >> but he's always aggressive. he's always up front. you never walk away from a conversation with rudy giuliani questioning how he feels about a particular point of view. >> yeah. but this was a personal insult to the president of the united states. >> yes, and it has been rejected by most of the colleagues and his friends, but at the end of the day there's enormous frustration with the presidential leadership or lack thereof. how about the flexibility with putin?

they gobbled up more of ukraine. how about we're going to get rid of assad? well, he's been able to kill 200,000 of his own citizens and hundreds of thousands left. isil's not a jv team. tehran has more authority and influence in baghdad than we do. that's what everybody's concerned about. rudy articulated it in a bold, dramatic way in the way that most of us don't agree with. but it's about the frustration with the president. >> he kind of hijacked the conversation in a different direction. >> well, i mean, he certainly hijacked it. but again, look what we're talking about today on a popular sunday news program, not about isil not about iran negotiations not about the ukraine being gobbled up by the individual that president obama said well after the election i'll have more flexibility. he certainly has more flexibility. these are the things that are concerning a lot of people. instead of talking about rudy, we've probably beat that one down pretty good so far, there is a lot of other things we need to be talking about. i think that's what my colleagues are saying.

>> let me let congressman issa get his two cents in here. do you have any defense to what he said? >> i don't think rudy's ever going to get the dust from ground zero out of his lungs. he was there during the fall of those towers. so for him to take personally a president whose policies have left israel hanging, have left our arab allies not trusting us have let eyeisil as the governor said go from being called a jv team as they took on more territory expansively from algeria to iraq, in fact than the size of texas. reality is that rudy has taken our debate, and i think we should thank him for this part of it, back to national security, to the key element that the president should be focusing on. he needs to call it islamic terrorism. he can't be looking at everything through the vision that somehow if you treat people better, if we're more democratic you're not going to have terrorism, and then have his own secretary telling people they

have to be vigilant if they go to a mall in minnesota, the reality is that we are losing the war against islamic fundamentalists around the world and it is not about religion, he says, but it is about religion. these people hate us for who we are and who we're not, and if we don't get on board with allies we can find and root out these terrorist organizations, then america will not be safe. they're saying it on this sunday and yet at the same time we have a haphazard no boots on the ground effort around the globe and that's just not right. >> let me take this to governor pataki who is am i correct thinking about a run for the presidency? >> yes, that's correct. >> okay. so when -- as a potential presidential candidate, we have asked lots of potential presidential candidates this week about rudy giuliani's

comments. some of them have disowned them. for example, jeb bush. some of them like scott walker refuse to comment. yesterday he told "the washington post" he wasn't sure if the president was a christian, and then his press secretary had to clean that up a little bit. don't you think republican presidential candidates who are blind-sided by this -- i admit, but don't you think they have to come out there and say what they believe about what rudy giuliani said directly you need to do that? >> i think when you ask the question you have to answer it yes, i think what he said was wrong. but -- i think it was wrong. but what i understand is that rudy and i saw the horrible consequences of looking the other way because radical islamic terror was thousands of miles across the world. and we saw the thousands of people many of whom both of us knew die that day and we saw the courage with which americans

and new yorkers responded. and it's deep in our blood. when we look today and we see them have training camps, we see them have recruiting centers, we see them have social media capability and our own homeland security secretary coming on and saying we have to use extreme caution going to a mall here and we have very weak leadership from washington i can understand how you get very upset about that. i go et upset about it as well. we have to be proactive and go after those camps on the ground before they can attack us again here. >> gloria i think you sense from my colleagues the enormous frustration we have with this litany of decisions and basically non-decisions that the president has made or miscalculations he's made over the past couple of years -- >> right, but there is one thing to have frustration with the president, and there is another thing to demean the president. >> yeah but gloria -- gloria you know if we wanted to get on top of the vice president every

time he says something flip and foolish or vulgar, we could have this discussion every sunday. >> well but let me just say something about that. congressman, issa. the vice president may very well be clumsy, but these remarks were hateful. >> rudy giuliani -- and i think marco rubio said it very well when he said exactly that. look we can find somebody who believes strongly something. rudy giuliani said he didn't believe. he didn't say the president wasn't. he said he didn't believe. now the reality is that i do believe that the president believes strongly in america. i just think he views america differently. i was there when he denounced the u.s. supreme court in the halls of congress during the state of the union for their decision. >> well and governor pataki let me say this to you. if you might run for the presidency. what can the republican party do to convince voters that in fact

it wants to broaden itself it has a real foreign policy message that it wants to deliver, which we've heard from you all this morning, and convince the american public that it is a party that they should vote for? >> gloria you may be a little surprised, but the republican party has done pretty well of late. we control both houses of congress. most of the governorships and the state legislators. you're acting as though the republican party is somehow suffering enormously. the individual candidates have to express to the people why they have the vision and the experience to be able to not just run this country, but change this country's government. >> but to win the white house back. >> -- we have to change washington. it comes down to the individual candidate. their vision experience and the ideas that they have. and i no he we have to change -- this country is a great country with a very weak government. it is the government in washington that has to change not american -- not the american people. >> no. and what i was talking about was

the republicans becoming a presidential party as opposed to being usually -- >> the republican party is doing well. >> -- at the congressional -- >> but more than that -- gloria the other point i'd make. it is not just about rocket-propelled grenade. it is about the american people coming together and understanding that we have a common future. the politicians, the media, so many try to point fingers at each other. let's solve problems. i saw what americans could do when we stand together in the months and years after september 11th. right now it's the politicians who divide us. let's solve problems move forward together and if we do, the best for this country is ahead of us. >> i'm going to just go to former homeland security secretary -- first homeland security secretary ridge and ask you about, first of all, what you've heard this morning from jeh johnson, and secondly about this fight to cut off funding. >> well, first of all i appreciate jeh's reminder to the

general public that law enforcement and military very much are the tip of the sphere but we do encourage awareness, not only in that mall but just generally. that's unfortunately, the world within which we are going to live and it may be a permanent condition. particularly these kind of propaganda films getting everyone inappropriately excited. but they've done it before they did it in kenya in 2013. but this is on the minds of mall owners and those responsible for people aggregating in large numbers ever since 9/11. so it is not as if we needed that reminder. i happen to have enormous sympathy for secretary johnson. i believe president obama greatly overreached his constitutional authority. i mean i just defind it very, very troubling not only on the immigration piece, but he's done it many many times before. but having said that it is a grave overreach. having said that i don't believe that this country has faced the breadth and the depth of challenges -- foreign policy

challenges al qaeda, al shabab isil, grievance we've ever seen. so to be talking about immigration and using a funding mechanism to really undermine the department these are great patriots all. they go to work every day trying to make sure america is safer and more secure. so what i would recommend to my friends on the hill is accept the notion that we're going to do this either the judicial branch or perhaps let's send the president a bill or a series of bills -- a series of bills dealing with immigration reform. >> and fund homeland security. >> exactly. fund it. this is an inside the beltway game. listen moms and dads are concerned about their job, got to get the kids to school got to pay my bills. one thing they know -- and george pataki alluded to it -- they know we got both chambers. we have the house. we have the senate. they don't know anything about the 60-vote cloture in the senate of the united states. i want my republicans to give the secretary a clean funding bill and use the legislative

process to engage america around the desperate needs -- social humanitarian economic -- for robust immigration reform. >> thank you, governors, and thank you congressman issa for being with me this morning for a very speared conversation. >> thank you. and we did send a pretty clean bill to the president. >> okay. okay. we have to end it there, congressman. >> you and i -- >> have it in the green room. thanks so much. and next -- how important is language in the fight against terror? deputy defense secretary paul wolfowitz on whether obama is right or wrong on his choice of words. and the former deputy secretary on his new role in advising jeb bush.

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and joining me now, paul wolfowitz, former deputy secretary of defense, and the key player in the george w. bush administration as it prepared to go to the war in iraq. thanks very much for being with me. the president held a summit on violent extremism this week as you know. he refuses to use the terms islamic radicals or islamic extremists because he believes it's both inaccurate and that it's also inflammatory. what do you think about that? >> look, i have a little bit of sympathy for what he's wrestling with. he doesn't want to give islamic extremists, which is what they are, a monopoly on that word "islam." i think to pretend that islam has nothing to do with the problem is a mistake.

to say what we're dealing with is a total yarian ideology that exploits islam and many of our best friends and allies in fights against that ideology are going to be muslims themselves. >> it's interesting to hear you say you have sympathy for the president on this point because this week there is a large controversy, as i'm sure you know. new york mayor rudy giuliani caused quite an uproar when he came out and said, the president doesn't love america. what do you think about that? do you believe that? >> no, i don't, but i think this refusal to call a phenomenon what it is makes him look silly. it makes him look as though he's an authority about what is true islam when he's not even a muslim. i think people understand that islam has something to do with what we're fighting and when you deny it, i think you lose a lot of support and understanding, including from the american people. >> but on the one hand you said you had sympathy with him. and now on the other hand you are saying he is refusing to kind of acknowledge reality? >> look, yes, i have sympathy

for him because i don't think we want to alienate the muslims who are on our side. that's where my sympathy stops. i think unless you're frank about what the problem is, you will, in fact, not recruit them. >> you're a foreign policy adviser to jeb bush now. you were one of the original drivers of the invasion of iraq when his brother, george w. bush, was president. let me play you a little bit about what jeb bush said about iraq last week. >> there were mistakes made in iraq for sure. using the intelligence capability that everybody embraced about weapons of mass destruction was not -- turns out not to be accurate. notteeating an environment of security after the successful taking out of hussain was a mistake. >> you were there at the time. you also said you thought you'd find weapons of mass destruction. you said of the "these are arabs,

23 million of the most well educated people in the arab world who are going to welcome us as liberators." >> i think in large parts of iraq people did welcome us as liberators. we were up against a terrorist organization that was built on basically the old saddam hussein security structures and that had a terrific capacity to intimidate and scare people into opposing us. i think clearly something we should have done at the beginning was to have a counter insurgency strategy. when we finally adopted one after four years, it worked amazingly quickly and brought things down to a relatively peaceful, relatively stable level by 2009. and i think one of the mistakes was to leave in 2011 and not make a serious effort to keep an agreement to keep an american presence in iraq. >> let me also ask you this question which is a little bit political, but jeb bush said he wants to be seen as his own man. he made that very clear.

and yet his team of foreign policy advisers is largely staffed by people like you and former members of his brother's foreign policy team. how can he be seen as his own man when the people who are advising him promoted a foreign policy that in retrospect has largely been regarded as flawed and unpopular. >> gloria, you're painting an awfully broad brush. a lot of people in that group and actually including myself participated in the reagan administration which i think was a very successful foreign policy. secretary schultz, secretary baker. there's a wide range of views. but in any case, he is his own man. i think he demonstrated that quite clearly in the question and answer session after his speech where he obviously was very comfortable answering a whole range of questions. i think he demonstrated that he knows this subject, he doesn't need a lot of coaching. >> if you could give him one piece of advice about what went wrong when you were there that

should not occur again, what would you say? >> look, i think it's a perennial piece of advice about any time you use force you need to anticipate that as they say in the pentagon, the enemy gets a vote. you can't predict what's going to happen. >> thank you so much. paul wolfowitz, thanks for being with us. >> you're welcome. when we come back, my exclusive interview with john kasich on whether he's in the 2016 mix and what republicans can do to win back the white house. sults, but first, we have a very special guest. come on out, flo! [house band playing] you have anything to say to flo? nah, i'll just let the results do the talking. [crowd booing] well, he can do that. we show our progressive direct rate and the rates of our competitors even if progressive isn't the lowest. it looks like progressive is not the lowest! ohhhh! when we return we'll find out whether doug is the father. wait, what?

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he's the popular two-term governor of the state vital to any republican hoping to win the presidency. so it's no wonder that republican ohio governor john kasich is tiptoeing around a possible presidential bid. he showed up in the early primary state of south carolina last week where i sat down with him. the official reason for his visit is his long-standing crusade, as he calls it, for constitutional amendment requiring a balanced federal budget. it's something he's been working on for decades. >> when i left washington after being budget chairman and being part of the budget deal with a $5 trillion surplus we blew the whole thing. we have to change the culture because it will eat us alive. >> is this a way for you to test the presidential waters? >> not really. the reason i came here is that i know that it would send hearts a twitter to say what is he doing? that's why i came here. >> are you going to run for president? let me just ask you directly.

>> i don't know. all my options are on the table and it's a process that i, you know, have really not spent an enormous amount of time studying internally. look, i'm not saying i won't. i'm not saying i will. i'm leaving my options out there and we'll see how things develop. i do -- gloria, look, i do want the country, as much as i can, really in a humble way to tell people about what's happened in ohio, and what's happened in ohio has been incredibly good. i think people need to hear about the way we think out there and what we do. >> where do you fit on the republican spectrum? >> you know you figure it out. i think a lot of people have a hard time trying to figure where i fit. i've never put myself in a box. we're balancing budgets, we're cutting taxes, and guess what? we're helping the poor to get on their feet. we believe when you have great economic success you need to share it with those who live in the shadows. we're helping the mentally ill, we're helping the drug addicted. we're helping the working for.

>> but it is the state of ohio which is so important in a presidential election. swing state. no president has ever been elected without winning the state of ohio. >> probably a republican can't be leaked president without winning ohio. if they're going to come to ohio extremism isn't going to work. >> is this a formula for republicans? >> i think it is a formula for the country. look at problems and fix them. don't be worrying about the next election. too many politicians worry. getting elected as they do their job. if they worried more about doing their job, they'd get elected. >> if you decide not to run, obviously you'd be on a list of vice president presidential candidates again because you're -- >> i've been on a list of vice presidential candidates since i was 35 years old or something like that. >> would you have any interest in it? >> i'm interested in being governor now. what do vice presidents do by the way? i think this he stop traffic on

roads when they move from point x to point y. >> you should ask joe biden. >> he stopped me today. >> he was in south carolina today, too. exactly, exactly. well, talk about ohio. you did win with 64% of the vote. impressive statistic 60% of women, 20% of african-americans voted for you. you look like presidential gold on paper. yet if you look at the conservatives who vote in republican primaries, you also took the medicaid expansion money. the tea party thinks you've gone to the dark side, that you're for big government. rand paul said governors who did think that "money grows on frees." >> you mean senator ron paul? >> no, rand paul. >> oh. i get them confused sometimes. ron and rand. i served with ron. anyway, i think what works for us in ohio, we're running surpluses of $2 billion,

structurally balanced. half the states are not. >> what do you say -- >> let me go on. i cut the taxes in ohio the legislature and i, by the largest tax cut in history. that's kind of conservatism. let me tell you another thing. matthew 25 says that it's about how you treat the widowed, how you treat the poor, how you treat the hungry. how do you clothe those who have no clothes? that is a conservative position to help them get on their feet so they then can assume their rightful place in our society. the faith community, i think still is at least used to be a part of the conservative movement. the conservative movement is you don't just kick people to the shadows or push them off the side of the road. >> what would you say to rand paul? >> i'm not sure i would say much to them. i don't know what he's maybe he doesn't work in kentucky. maybe everybody is fine. maybe there are people who aren't suffering these problems.

it's either pay me now or pay me later. we think giving people an opportunity to get the help they need and giving them the tools they need to rise, that is conservatism. you know what? i've got as much a right as anybody in the republican party to define what conservatism means. we've cut taxes more than anybody in the country. they are wondering about my conservatism? maybe i should wonder about theirs. >> you also support common core. you haven't ruled out a pathway to citizenship. how can you have those positions and win your party's nomination, if you were doing to run. >> first of all, when i ran in 2010, i received self-identified conservatives 80% of their vote. i can't think of anything more conservative or more right in terms of what america is about than opportunity for everybody. >> do you think this is a problem for the republican party? >> i will tell you this, if somebody comes into ohio and they are extreme, i don't think they're going to win. we don't operate that way in ohio.

>> let me move to foreign policy. >> sure. >> is hillary clinton's foreign policy experience an asset for her? it seems to be kind of hard to match, at least as you look at the lineup of republicans so far. >> well, i don't want to get into hillary. i like hillary. i'm not ever going to be for her for president. but, you know gloria, foreign policy does matter. hopefully, whether i do this or not, i can have somewhat of a voice when it comes to the fact that america seems to be in retreat. here is the tragedy. i talk to people who really are kind of bipartisan folks who study these issues. a lot of our friends, allies and even our enemies are wondering where is america, what's happening to it. we are a moral force in the world. when we decide to leave or doubletalk or paint red lines and walk away from them, we

develop credibility problems. >> how would you handle isis differently from the way the president is doing? >> honestly, i think the western world needs to be united and we need to invite our friends in the arab world together and we do need to develop a plan. we're not going to solve this problem just by bombing. >> would you -- >> i think we should be part of an effort to deal with this problem before it gets much worse. >> so you would consider boots on the ground? >> sure, sure. >> americans don't want that. >> americans will go for leadership that makes sense. our job as public officials is not to put our finger in the air. our job is to listen, and then lead. >> so you would say to the american people? >> first of all, i'm not president now. i'm not making a speech tonight in the oval office. i'm just suggesting to you that if at some point in dealing with isis -- you mark my words. john kasich whether you ever hear from him again, at some point it will require boots on the ground from the world to be

able to deal with this problem. and i would rather deal with it sooner rather than later. you don't just go running over there. you've got to have a battle plan, figure out exactly what you're going to do. i would never suggest we should engage in nation building or convert all these people to our way of life. we need stability and we need to stop this. >> if you were president and netanyahu came to address congress, would you meet with him? >> have a cup of coffee. why not. making such a big deal. the guy's been invited to speak in congress. let him speak. the president can have a meeting with him. they don't have to have a photo op. use common sense a foreign leader coming, a great ally of ours. he's coming here -- was it handled in a clumsy way, okay, so it was. look, get beyond that. see, that's our problem, gloria. we spend too much time trying to be politically correct, play to the cameras, play to our base. i worry about america. for the first time in my lifetime, i'm worried about us. i'm worried about how our values to some degree have been eroded, personal responsibility and

compassion and teamwork. i worry about it. i worry about the fact we're so divided. do i think it can be fixed? i have no doubt because i saw ronald reagan do it and i've seen other great leaders throughout history. harry truman, whatever party they are. they can bring us together. it can happen. >> while governor kasich has visited a number of states pushing for balanced budget constitutional amendment, he told me he's considering traveling to one more that could be more than just a coincidence. it's called new hampshire. thanks for watching state of the union." i'm gloria borger. "fareed zakaria gps" starts next.

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this is "gps," global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we have a terrific show for you today. first up -- is the self-declared islamic state really islamic? and what's in a name, anyway? >> al qaeda, isil and groups like it are desperate for legitimacy. >> how should we describe and deal with the phenomenon the president calls violent extremism. then how do we win the fight against the terror group on a new battlefield. i'll explain. also john chambers the chairman and ceo of cisco on disruptive technologies the state of the economy, and how the internet of everything will transform your life.