this is cnn breaking news. >> 1. 1:00 p.m. east coast, and 4:00 a.m. in the french alps and the investigation is deepening. and now we know that the crash was a crime. we know that the co-pilot andreas lubitz crashed the plane into the alps and we know that the plane's altitude was changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet. and why did it happen? the president of lufthansa told our cnn reporter fred pleitgen

this -- >> we have no explanation at this point. >> tonight we want to know what you think, and tweet us using germanwingsqs. what is the latest on the recovery efforts, nic? he is min the french alps. >> don, due to the restart in the next few hours as soon as the sun comes up you can expect the helicopters to be coming in here to pick up the recovery teams, and they are two team members and a mountain guide. what is different here and you can maybe see my breath in the air, and the ground is thick with frost. we are 4,500 feet and where the recovery is going son 6,000 feet. and the ground below me is covered in a layer of ice that.. that is what the recovery workers will find high in the mountains tomorrow. it is going to be dangerous, and treacherous underfoot, and we have seen picktures can of them

on the poun tain with pictures of the aircraft and it is steep. in the best of times, and in good conditions it is difficult going, but this is what they are going to be facing. >> and what are the relatives from around the world, what are they seeing? >> they have been taken to what the french officials are saying is the closest to the crash site. there was a memorial service, and very solemn and more than 100 family members in the field for this memorial service for a little over an hour. there was a plaque. on the plaque was the names of every one who was aboard the flight and they were able to go. we saw them walking forward in the ones and twos and in groups, and perhaps to read the names of their loved ones and the flags of the countries were draped. there was a large wreath of flags -- >> that is nic robertson

reporting for us, and there is technical difficulty there, and i you can understand. i want to talk about the french prosecutors because they say that the co-pilot deliberately crashed that plane after he locked the pilot out of the plane. and so the fate of the passengers on the plane rested on one switch. kyung lah is looking into that. what have you got for us? >> well, don, the switch is something that exists in every single commercial plane that is flown around the world. >> reporter: he cannot imagine why a pilot would do this. >> terrain terrain. >> reporter: but bugs forsytht knows how. a retired military and commercial pilot, forsyth says he has flown thousands of hours in the a320 airbus. he has used the switch hundreds of times. >> ton lock you pull it up, and hold it, and the light comes on

and says that the door is open. and if i release it, it goes back to the normal position. >> and the norm means locked? >> that is correct. >> reporter: according to the airbus operations door there is a keypad that allows the entry if you noeknow the code, but if the person inside switches it to lock the keypad won't work for five minute and there is another that goes beyond five minutes. >> and ki the key pad and hold it in the lock position, and he cannot use the keypad or anything, because it can't go in. >> reporter: and so to keep the co-pilot out, what do you have to do? >> if he knew the keypad number i hold lock and he can't get in. >> and can you manually fly this and hold the lock button? >> oh yes, easy. >> reporter: but then that s ais a purposeful act? >> very much so. >> reporter: again and again, we fly through the scenarios in

auto pilot and manual and both manage to crash the plane, and both had to be deliberately programmed or flown into the ground. what does that suggest to you as far as the determination? >> he was very determine and that is the goal, and he has had a mission or goal to kill himself and everybody on board. we deal with the terrorists and people who are not supposed to be in the cockpit, but this person is supposed to be in the cockpit, and that is scary. >> reporter: so we know the mechanics of it, but the question of why is what is so hard to understand. don? >> thank you, kyung lah. now i want to bring in alan diehl, author of "air safety investigators" and also matthew l. wald aviation expert and jim hall a former chairman of the ntsb and juliette kayem, and david soucie author of

malaysian flight 370 and now, if someone is in the cockpit preventing him to getting in, would that be recorded somewhere on the flight data recorder? >> only in that if they put the code in, it is going to put in a buzzer, and the buzzer is going to ring for 30 seconds, unless something is done, and they would pick it up on the cobckpit voice recorder. >> i want everyone to pay attention to this, because it is a airbus safety video, and it talks about what we are talking about. take a look. >> on the code pad, he presses the emergency code and enters the hatch key, and the green code will flash indicating imminent unlocking. in the cockpit, the light will will flash continuously indicating imminent unlocking, and then the door will go into unlocking sequence for five seconds. the green light on the code pad

remains steady. the open light comes on for five seconds during the unlocking sequence sequence, and the buzzer stops indicating that the door sun locked and the purser has five second s seconds to enter. >> and the guests said it worked perfectly, matthew wald, and they say no reason to even change the procedure when it comes to cockpit door. >> that is true. aviation is very safe and one of the problems is that you put in the fix for a 1 in 1 million problem, tandand the fix will create another 1 in 1 million problem. but i am curious about the mental health and you have jimv have jim hall on the air with us, and he was a head of the ntsb and so

other people in the world they don't do it this way, they look at the engineer, and if they the investigate, and decide it is a crime, they turn it over and so i would love other outside experts to go over the cockpit recorder and data recorder, and then reach their own conclusions. >> jim hall? >> yes. i am sorry. >> and i agree with what matt is saying. i hate to be be making the same argument over but you need before you accuse someone of a heinous crime like this you need to have all of the evidence in place. >> before you accuse a dead guy of a crime. >> and this is a situation here that i have not heard of that there's adequate information

from the flight data recorder, and all of this information regretly has been leaked evidently. >> and david soucie. >> much of it before it was verified by the investigators, themselves. >> and jim, i want to go back to address the cockpit video. i'm not against the cockpit videos and let's start there, and what i am against is not learning from the lessons learned, and that is what is happen ing happening in my estimation, because we have learned that the cockpit door is a deterrent, and we have said, that and since that is in place, no unauthor unauthorized cockpit access, and two, we have learned that by having ensuring two people in the cockpit every time we have also prevented any pilot suicides, because there has not been in carriers that use that rule there has not been any pilot suicides enacted so therefore if you are going to be be using the logic that the door deterred then you have to use the same lodge toik say that the two people this the cockpit deterred suicide. so i am not for adding

additional technology and additional safety measures when the safety measures have been proved and lessoned learned that can be simply applied to other carriers across the nation which fl falls again i am a broken record on this on iota and iko on all careriers worldwide. >> and for two people to be in the cockpit, would it help alan dieh lshgs diehl? >> well, it has. i basically always agree with david, but there were two pilots in the egyptair thing. >> no there was not two people in the cockpit, jim? >> well, he enters the cockpit, and the captain fought with him. >> well he was gone and then he came back in. >> and exactly, and by the time he got back in, david, there was a battle but i agree with you, david, they should have two, and always have two people in the cockpit. but there has been some programs out there that have been very successful and these are very

infrequent events and i would submit that the viewers have more of a chance of dying of infected bee sting than a crazy captain taking them off in an airliner but there are a couple of programs very successful, and one is crew resource management. it was designed to prevent accidents, but i submit, it is also also, and we don't know about the incidents that didn't happen if you will with the demented pilots or the pilots disturbed and we don't know much about that but i submit that the pro program has been successful in doing that, and the second program was an ntsb initiative by the way, and faa program is the alcoholic pilots program that the public doesn't know much about it, but if a pilot say s thas that i'm an alcoholic, and he goes to the union and the company, and they go to the faa, they will allow that pilot to continue flying but he has to be carefully monitored and that

is far better than the pilots who have an alcohol problem concealing and secretly continuing to fly. and so there are many programs out there, and two that have been successful that we could talk about some other ones. >> and dan and juliette i have 30 second, and dan, you want to weigh? >> yeah on david's side. he is the voice of reason here. we have programs that work, and we need to establish them worldwide. we do crm in the united states and those programs have protected incountable people, and we need to implement them worldwide. >> well, you have the consensus here and the more redundancies and the systems in the cockpit, and the things in the world that we cannot prevent. we have a system carrying a million up in the airt at any

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the ceo of lufthansa which owns germanwings is just as baffled as anyone that the news that the co-pilot deliberately crashed the jet. carsten spohr sat down with fred pleitgen and said that they are concentrating on the needs of the families of those on board. >> how did you inform the relatives of those who were killed about what happened? >> well, the relatives have been in the focus for the last two days after this terrible accident and in these for sure darkest hours in the history of the group, and we have tried as much as we can to take care of them. we have sent counselors and we tried to be with them all around the clock, and we also managed

to get the information to them before they found out from the media which is a sign of respect which is highly appreciated. >> reporter: how do you explain what happened? i mean, it seems something that is so out of the question, and how do you explain something that could happen in a pilot that was trained in your company and who flew for your company? >> to tell you the truth, we have no explanation at this point. and to this point, we have been so proud to select pilots and training them and having them train in this way, and having something like this is incomprehensible and it is a case that every safety system in the world cannot completely rule out. that is what we will take as a explanation if you want to call it that. >> reporter: but might there signs or could there have been indications that the person might have been mentally unstable? >> no shgs, the pilot has passed all of the tests, all of the medical

exams, and we have a lufthansa, and the reporting system where crew can report without being punished their own problems or problems of others, and none of that was used in this case. and all of the safety nets that we are so proud of have not been use used in this case. >> and so for now, you must be gathering information about this co-pilot andreas lubitz and what have you learn ded? >> well, we won't answer this, because of the law, but of course course, we are looking into things, and even this is a single case, and we will now go back and see what we can do to even improve our system further, because lufthansa safety has always been number one, and that is why we do our utmost to bring it to the higher level after this terrible accident. >> reporter: i know that you have a long process where people go through stages, but are there

changes that need to be made for the process? >> again, this is a terrible single case, and we have decades of selecting pilots, and training the pilots in phoenix, arizona, and qualitying the people to fly the airplanes up to the 620 that we have now, and we will take this now to take it for better ideas and improvements but it will take time and this again, we should not rule from this single case that a system which has worked for so many decades is not as close to perfect as kitit can be. >> reporter: how big of a blow is this not just for the airline but for the credibility of the air looin airline, because people fly lufthansa, because they feel they are in good hand and the airplanes are very well maintain the and the pilots have the best training and are very professional? >> well all of these reasons to fly lufthansa are still valid, and we are putting in training

and maintenance, and we are doing whatever we can to improve the safety level, and again, after this terrible accident maybe feelings have been chang changed, but the professional commitment has not changed a single bit. >> reporter: but you accept that some people will be feeling uneasy about getting on the planes at this point? >> we understand emotionals, but for us as professionals we have to let you understand that we are not touched with the professionalisms, and we are not going to be touched, and we will not let it be be touched in the future. >> reporter: and so in the united states there has to be a person who has to go into the cockpit if a pilot leaves such as at a ten dant the.-- attendant.

>> and that is not in all cases for the united states is my understanding. but the global thing that is most accepted procedure that a pilot can leave the cockpit for personal needs which is very quick, and this is something that we will look into it. >> reporter: are will you make changes? is. >> we will look into that with the experts of other airlines i am sure. >> reporter: what do you know exactly happened? some of it you have said that apparently the captain was locked out of the cockpit. what do you know exactly what happened afterwards? >> we know the same thing that the public knows from the statements of the french investigation office where apparently after the pilot, after the captain has left the cockpit, he has tried to regain

the access and knocks on the door according to the french authorities it was not lock ded open the way it was supposed to be and that is a clear indication that it was the co-pilot for the pilot to return. >> and no clear indication that there might have been a meddle cal emergency, and some other event for the pilot to be incapacitated and you believe that the co-pilot deliberately steered the pilot into the mountain mountain. >> and we have a procedure where the pilot opens the consciousness, and a way for the door to open up the inside unless they block it and this is apparently what happened here. >> reporter: and he blocked it from the inside as the captain was trying to get back inside? >> from what we know he did not allow access to the cockpit is what the french authorities have so far informed us about. >> reporter: what did the captain do to get back in? can the captain get back in at

this stage of the game? >> after 9/11, we have put doors on the cockpits not to be opened with any force or small weapons, so there was no way for the captain to get back into the cockpit in this case the co-pilot was not able to allow access access. >> reporter: how do you break something like this to the relatives of the victims, because now they were grieving and obviously awful for them but now there has to be a certain degree of anger as well? >> well, we have trained psychologist, and people who have done this before and people who do it in a professional way, and supported by the people of lufthansa, and yes, it is incomprehendiblekom precomprehensible to understand what they are going through after losing somebody two days ago. >> reporter: we understand that lufthansa is a robust company,

and could this affect your credibility? >> well we have built up credibility for 60 years now, and this terrible accident is not something that i want to play down in the importance and has been affected but the kredibility of the group -- >>what about germanwings. >> and the credibility of the people will allow us to get through this. >> that is fred pleitgen reporting there. and a number of legal questions being raised about the crash. advice from some attorneys coming up. and now you have 42 locations. the more i put into my business the more i get out of it. like 5x your rewards when you make select business purchases with your ink plus card from chase. and with ink, i choose how to redeem my points for things like cash or travel. how's the fro-yo? just peachy...literally.

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works? works. works! works? works. works. there are plenty of legal questions surrounding the crash of 9525 and especially now that the investigators say that the co-pilot deliberately crashed the plane. let's talk about it with the aviation trial attorneys who represent families of air france 447. thank you, gentlemen, for joining us. mike talk about the legal rights of the grieving families who had loved ones on the flight and obviously, nothing

can make up for the loss of life, but this tragedy has thrust a great financial burden on the family and we talked about it earlier, because it goes beyond the emotional stress there is a financial burden on the families. >> yes, before you talk about the legal aspects, there is a human aspect, and my condolences go out to the families. it is different to have a loss of the loved ones, but it is different to have lost them at the hands of a psychopath and so i'm as much at disbelief as anyone else. as the proposition to make a claim against lufthansa and germanwings, that is governed by the montreal convention, and the european conventions, but in short, the carrier is responsible to the families for

damages, monetary damages, which of course does not compensate the family for the loved ones, but it is upon tear damages of where the case can be filed. >> and mike, can that take a while, because more specifically, the financial damages here, because it could be a husband who was a breadwinner, and the wife who is a breadwinner, and now lufthansa is goinging to be incrementally giving them money, but still -- >> and under the law, and no question. under the law, both the european regulations as well as the montreal convention, they are mandated to make humanitarian payments to help bridge the gap of what is going on now, and the ultimate adjudication of the claims, and now, we are only two days after the accident and there is all of the leaks as to what people believe happened and some apparently incontrovertible evidence of what happened. so it may be that the cases will resolve through the settlement before a full court procedure.

the major issue for the families in the legal standpoint is the ability to where to file the claim. dun under the montreal convention, the majority of the claims would have to be ajude kated against the carrier in germany, and maybe some in spain p. the three families in america could pursue a claim in the united states' court because of the jurisdictions rights they have under the convention, but the measure of the damages and the process is going to be so different. in short a claim in the united states courts based in the american law under the wrongful law of a loved one is quantitatively different than the german courts. >> i have to get stephen in here and what he said and does it make a difference if it is a criminal act as far as compensation compensation? >> well, let me address the criminal act. the criminal act probably assists the families.

in the last three criminal prosecutions in europe which is the sky guide prosecutions, and the dhl, and the other midway and the concord which result eded in criminal prosecution, and the sas midair ground crash involved prosecutions and jail terms for the people involved. >> but who do you prosecute here? there is no one to prosecute. >> yes, they did prosecute, and you would think for example in the sas crash, you never would have expected on the ground incursion a criminal prosecution, but they prosecuted the airport managers for not putting sufficient markings on the airport, and the sky guide, the person who was not paying attention served time and then ultimately killed by a family member and then in the sky guide, ultimately, executives were prosecuted because of a faulty tire that was well known

and metal strip left on the runway. >> could someone in lufthansa be there? >> and well, you saw a prosecutor called in today and so they are possibly opening up criminal prosecution and it would be

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and now to try to get some answers to your questions, our experts are here with the data showing that the autopilot was reprogrammed and you can ask your questions at #german wingsqs. and so the first question goes to david hall and to dan rather. dan, from gavin, and he says is there no air checking in the a320's pilot software for setting the software below cruising parameters? >> well, there is no error that

you set an altitude that you plan to go to and that is the first parameter is to set the one that you plan to stop at. that is not an error, so you would need to land so you need to get the airplane down to the ground. so there is no error checking at all. all. >> and so, this is from angelo and why is he not a terrorist, and murdering this many people would be an act of terror and why isn't it, juliette? >> well, we tend to throw around the term terrorism, but it has a meaning that somebody does this for an ideological person for political gain and there is nothing that germany and france can do about this and they had a mass murder, and this is what it is, and there is no evidence otherwise. and i'd like to preserve the word terror ismism for the real thing, because if you throw it around, it means nothing after a while. >> and this is another one to david soucie and is it possible

that the someone lured the captain out of the cockpit? the investigators look forging for the possibility of an accomplice? >> well, it is going to be possible that he was poisoned or had to put the ipecac in the coffee or something to excuse himself. so it is possible. >> and is it possible to have three pilots on board? is that going to change anything? >> well i think it would, and of course, if you are my age you remember when all aircraft had three pilots on board, but for economic reasons, i don't see the aviation industry embracing that. >> okay. matthew, this is another question that says why don't you use the enhanced technology to control the airplanes from a control area to prevent such

dramatic crashes? >> well you would introduce another possibility of crashes. it introduces another philosophical question. >> and christine says this is a stressful job, and shouldn't there be a psyche evaluation to deal with job-related stress alan? >> well they have the ability to turn themselves in if they are overstressed due to job pressures or to the family pressures, et cetera and so do those do exist, and he did not avail himself of these. >> and this is to david soucie and it is to me and from maryann, and i'm curious why none of the passengers turned on the cell phones when they saw

the pilot banging on the door? >> well, you have to have service, and this area is too remote. that is not a highly populated airport that was within 25 miles. >> and let's go back to the financial concern of having three pilots. because i do remember the old days, and if you remember the old days of the three pilots. >> and the three of them smoking, right? that is how old we all are. >> and when i used to ride as an faa observer, you would sit in the jump seat and it is not comfortable there, but it is there, and it is there and i can see not only am i blocking the door but i can see how it could make a big difference to have three people in the cockpit. >> and what about the air marshals on the flights, because we do here? >> well not all of them and they are based on the risk assessments of the flight and people on the various watch list but not universal

coverage and not sure it would have worked in this instance. >> and we will get to more of the questions and use the #germanwingsqs. denver international is one of the busiest airports in the country. we operate just like a city and that takes a lot of energy. we use natural gas throughout the airport - for heating the entire terminal generating electricity on-site and fueling hundreds of vehicles. we're very focused on reducing our environmental impact. and natural gas is a big part of that commitment.

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questions of the crash 9525 and i'm back with the team of experts. dan, this is a question from you, and it is pretty controversial, and we have been talking about the cameras in the cockpit, and this is from pete. people are asking why people don't want cameras in the cockpits, and the reason they don't want it is because they take turns sleeping. dan? >> well -- well i don't believe that is why nobody wants the cam cameras in the cockpit, but people are used to the cameras, and used to the police officers wearing the body cameras, and that is why they can't carry the voice camera recorder around in the pocket. i was in a simulaor for you in the special, and we needed five cameras to attempt to show what the cockpit showed so i don't know how much is enough and what would be enough to show the it. >> and that is for tv quality, but that is a big fish there.

>> and are you going to look at my face or the instruments or the hands? it is a big place, and it is hard to do. >> and that is right. we are talking about spending $1 billion in spending the cameras in the fleets and you are going to be spending $1 billion, and you have to ask a question of what are you going to take a picture of and it is a hard iselle. it does not make sense. >> and alan this is from the relatives of mh-370, are we close of what may happen with the germanwings crash, and are we saying that they are similar or what happened to them? alan? >> well, the 370 question is still totally open. obviously, suicide or some kind of a terrorist act or even a murder-suicide on the flight deck is possible but i don't think that until we can find the wreckage of 370 we can make any

connections of that and germanwings. >> okay. this is for matthew wald and this is from foster. is flying safer or less safe compared to 10 or the 20 years ago. we are certainly reporting a lot of it but it is a lot safer, isn't it matthew? >> it is safer, but the expectations expectations are greater. it used to be in the country, that if you lost three or four planes it was tragic and that is the way it is, and now if you lose one every three or four or five years, it is unacceptable. >> and in the last year i have covered with you, matthew, and certain certainly david and juliette, at this same place right here five air disasters. >> the volume of the air traffic grows and grows and grows, and the number of crashes per million operations declines, but the growth is so fast that you do end up with some spectacular crashes of some very big

airplanes. airplanes. >> is this, and can we expect this rate to continue? >> i mean look we have zero toll the rans when it comes to the airplane, and legacy of 9/11 and also the hopes that this system is going to be working perfectly, but if you compare it to any other mode of transportation if you were going to send your kid somewhere, you would still put them on the airplane and i know i know i know! because the consequences of it going wrong are so catastrophic. >> i get it but there is something that make ss me feel better that my feet are on the ground and in an automobile. >> and don, it is safer than staying home. if you stay home your house could burn down with you in it and you could have a heart attack and nobody there with a defibrillator there. and you rare safer for every hour you spend in the time. >> and that is right, david. >> that was matthew. >> and al diehl. and you are right, it is the safest way to go. and suicide-induced death in aircraft is extremely low.

>> and that is matthew wald saying that. this is for david. >> okay. >> i will see if i can be right. >> and adelaide said has this ruled out that a mechanical failure or human error may have caused this? >> well, it does in some respects but i always have a nagging thing in the back of my head and that is when you set a descent which is what the chancellor did is that he set it in or the prosecutor sets it in, and you look at the glide path there as we we are seeing it, and this is showing it straight which is how it should be but when you put the data there, it is not straight. there is movement in that descent, and there is something going on, and maybe it is explained by the fact that he was messing with the controls or playing with the speed, and who knows, but it is just in my head if it is as clean as that i will sit it to zero and then breathe normally and let it crash into the ground there sis a little

question, and maybe 1% or 2% is all, but there is a question. >> and if somebody was in the cockpit to direct him to this, we would know, because we would hear it? >> yes, and a lot of way ss he would let us know. >> and jim, lamar asks, what can be done to prevent this from happening again? >> security officer, and we talked about the air marshals on every flight. >> well again, i don't know that there is anything that we can do to guarantee that something like this won't happen again. but we can certainly address it, and take steps, and that is why i think that having more information with the cam flas the cockpit, and possibly look at a third person in the cockpit, and almost all of the flights fly with somebody deadheading, a pilot or somebody from the aviation industry, and we know from experience in the united states that so far fortunately that it has been

safe safe. >> i mean, you look at the -- it is like any other security system, and we can talk about airplane, trains and you just want more redun dan sis, and backup systems to stop it and cameras won't stop anything and a third pilot, but the more things that you put in place to stop it from going wrong is the better you are, and it is security all around. >> and this is for you, and i don't think that we can answer it, but a it is mind boggling, and why kill 149 other people if you want to die, because there are thousands of ways to die yourself yourself, and that is from ginedra, but it is unanswerable at this point. thank you very much, all of you. we appreciate it. we will be right back. >> sure.

he's out there. there's a guy out there whose making a name for himself in a sport where your name and maybe a number are what define you. somewhere in that pack is a driver that can intimidate the intimidator. a guy that can take the king 7 and make it 8. heck. maybe even 9. make no mistake about it. they're out there. i guarantee it. welcome to the nascar xfinity series. this week's cnn hereo is 74 years old, but she can go

off-road like a 16-year-old. she uses mountain biking to introduce city kids to a whole new world. >> i have been riding since age 4. i will never forget my father when he let go of my seat and i was there on my own. that was 70 years ago. a lot of kids have never really left the city. to them everything is concrete. is everybody excited? i decided to take kids who have never had my kind of experience on these mountain bike rides. okay you guys let ees's hit the road. >> i was not trying at school. i was getting straight fs and i got expelled. we would go on bike rides and i feel like it clears my mind. >> looking good! >> i have been doing this for almost 30 years. you bring them where there are no buildings. and it is like wow, i didn't

know that this exists. and then we have our earn a bike program where the kids in the community come after school. what is wrong with it? >> the chain. >> and so the chain is loose? >> yes. >> and they learn how the work on the bikes, and learn how to earn bikes and learn job skills. >> and now i get as and be bs and a better life. >> and there is an opportunity to see, yes, i have been able to accomplish what i thought that i couldn't. it is not just biking. we are imparting life lessons. >> so to nominate a hero go to cnn heroes.com. thank you so much for joining us and i hope that we answered most of the questions this evening, and you had a lot of them. if you want to tweet us you can use germanwingqs, and we will

answer as many of them as possible. i'm don lemon, and thank you for watch g watching. we will see you back here on cnn and our coverage continues with george and natalie, and they rare in the cnn center in atlanta. welcome to our viewers here in the united states around around the world. >> the co-pilot of germanwings flight 9525. officials believe he flew intentionally into the mountain killing on board. and more turmoil and violence in the middle east as a saudi-led coalition launches air strikes in yemen. >> welcome, i'm george howell. >> and i'm natalie allen. this is cnn newsroom. we begin this hour with the investigation into germanwings' flig