>> thanks for watching "state of the union. i'm dana bash in washington. fareed zakaria "gps" starts now. >> this is "gps," the global public scare.

welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we have an important show today starting with yemen collapsing into utter chaos and becoming a war between two of the most powerful nations in the northeast. iran versus saudi arabia. then the iran nuclear talks. the clock is ticking loudly. the deadline approaches. deal or no deal? also, is islam a religion of peace? my next guest says no. on why her former religion needs a reformation similar to the one christianity had 500 years ago. and inside a silent war going on on college campuses across america. it's the war on the liberal arts. i think it's a terrible trend.

so terrible i've written a book about it. i'll explain. finally, the most interesting man in the world has died. i'll give you my memories of the founding father of singapore and a man i got to know quite well over the last two decades. but first, here is my take. just months ago the white house was touting yemen as a model for its anti-terrorism campaign. since then the government has collapsed and an insurgency backed by iran has gained ground. that insurgency is battling against forces backed by the united states and saudi arabia, which launched air strikes against the insurgents this week. meanwhile, jihadi groups are jumping in to fill the vacuum of authority. this descent to chaos startled many observers but yemen's trajectory shouldn't surprise

anyone. it follows a familiar pattern in the arab world, one that we are likely to see again, possibly in larger and more significant countries like egypt. yemen was ruled for 33 years by a secular military dictator. he ruthlessly suppressed opposition groups, especially those with a religious or sectarian orientation. in this case the houthis who are shiite. after 9/11 sa louisiana cooperated wholeheartedly with washington's war on terror which means he got money, arms and training from the united states. but the repression ensured that disdissent would grow. eventually during the arab spring he was forced to resign. while people both in yemen and washington promised a more representative government they quickly settled into a comfortable relationship with sa louisiana's

with the former deputy who quickly began to rule as repressively as his predecessor. soon the opposition and insurgency mounted again. this is the pattern that has produced terrorism in the arab world. repressive secular regimes, backed by the west become illegitimate. over time they become more repressive to survive and the opposition becomes more extreme religious and violent. the insurgents and jihadis have mostly local grievances but because washington supports the dictators, their goals because increasingly anti-american. since we have learned little from this history, we are now repeating it. the obama administration praises president sisi who arguably rules in a more repressive manner than hosni mubarak. sisi's regime has jails protesters and jailed tens of

thousands, mostly from the opposition opposition according to human rights watch. there was an american president who understood blind support for arab dictators no matter that they were admirably secular or willing to jail jihadis or willing to stay at peace with israel. he said "60 years of western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the middle east did nothing to make us safe." that was of course george w. bush. the fact that bush's administration so botched its remedy regime change and occupation of iraq should not blind us to the fact that it was accurate and intelligent in its diagnosis of the problem. the arab world provides no easy answers. trapped as it is between repressive dictators and ill-liberal democrats. but that does not mean blindly supporting the autocrats is the answer. with the military dictators and

engaging in joint military actions with the absolute monarchy of saudi arabia we should be wondering what is going on in the shadows, mosques, and jails of those countries. for more, go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week. let's get started. you heard my take on how history is repeating itself in yemen but the civil war in yemen might just bring us into a new phase of history. would saudi arabia along with the coalition of gulf allies attack the houthis who in turn are getting alleged support from iran. many worry this proxy war could turn into a heart war, a great sunni versus shia conflagration.

the president of the council on foreign relations is with us. richard, explain what that would pleen explain to be in a 30-year religious war and what are the u.s. options? >> the several decades of struggle in and across borders. civil wars, proxy wars all in one. these wars have so many logs on the fire that they burn and burn for a long time simply because of what drives them. for outsiders, you have to be willing to impose a settlement. we learned from iraq and afghanistan millions of troops over decades don't necessarily impose settlements. or we can do things at the margins. hope to help this side reinforce that side, train another, arm another. the u.s. position is likely to be quite modest. >> what i was struck by in your piece is you point out that the saudis feel threatened in a way

perhaps tlehey haven't in a long time, which is why they're striking. you think saudi arabia is vulnerable? >> i do. this is the second time saudi arabia has intervened directly in a meaningful way. one is bahrain, its neighbor. now in yemen another neighbor. the saudis, unlike in syria where they're very bothered and upset to what's going on to their kin. here they feel physically threatened by what's happened. i think when saudi arabia looks out not just here what's happening in yemen, but more broadly. there is this group called the islamic state. you know, i know that is a question of when and not if this group says, loi, wehey, we have to challenge the country that's overseeing the two religious shines in our country. i think that day is coming. >> you also point out something which i think people have not focused enough on. iraq is really fragmenting into three separate countries. >> absolutely. we're not talking about autonomy.

iraq is effectively breaking up. you have an iranian shia version and a kurdish iraq. now in the west you have a sunni tribal iraq. when do we give up the game? xwh when do we say all of this energy is over? that would be an iran shia-dominated iraq. the united states might have to essentially say we'll allow the iranians to control southern and central iraq. the kurds we'll support their independence and we'll try to work with the arabs in the west -- with the sunnis and that might be the only way to reduce their alienation so they're then in turn not attracted to supporting groups like the islamic state. >> in sum, what you are describing is a kind of forest fire where the united states is going to have to play a modest role managing at the margins. >> absolutely. there won't be a one size fits all strategy in each country and each sub country. we'll have to choose the nature of intervention. sometimes direct. sometimes indirect. but i think we made a collective

strategic decision for the most part that we are not going to get centrally involved again. again, it will be more modest and selective, and as a result we have to understand, that also means less results. >> stay with me, richard. when we come back, we are going to talk about the fast approaching iran nuclear talks. that deadline for the deal is two days away. i want to talk about what a deal like this would look like and who would really benefit. we will discuss that when we come back. hello. i am technology that is changing investing forever. i am a fully automated investment advisory service. i can help you choose the right portfolio. monitor it. and even rebalance it. i've been called innovative. revolutionary. and just plain smart. i'd blush at the compliment if i could. but i can't. so. i won't. say hello at intelligent.schwab.com

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iran's nuclear program. today, israel's prime minister slammed the talks saying this agreement is fulfilling our deepest fears but just what is the agreement he's so worried about? that's what we're here to discuss. richard haas is the president of the council on foreign relations with us. joining us is the president of the fund, a man that's writ and studied deeply the top pick of nuclear weapons and energy. joe, what is the likely deal that, you know, that both excites some people and frustrating prime minister netanyahu? >> they're trying to do three things with this deal. the first is to cut off iran's pathways to a bomb. make sure they can't transition quickly from a small civilian program to the a large military program. i think we can do that. the second is to have eyes everywhere. we have to install the most intrusive inspection regime ever created so that if iran tries to break out or sneak out or creep out of this deal we can detect

it immediately. and third, we have to have a rapid response mechanism, something to put in place if we catch iran cheating. right now we have iran in a global sanctions vice. if they fulfill the terms of the deal, you loosen up. they get to sell a little more oil. but if they cheat, you want to snap it back in place. that is probably the most important point of this deal. it's what they negotiated today in switzerland. >> let's talk about the first point. how do you make sure they don't get from civilian to nuclear? that's basically about how much you can enrich the uranium and what level. they've got 8,000 tons white, of low enriched uranium. you need a very small of highly enriched. how do you make sure the low enriched uranium doesn't turn into the highly enriched? >> the deal is going to slash iran's centrifuges. they can spin iranian gas and can be used to make fuel or bombs. how do you make sure iran

doesn't go from fuel to bombs? shrink the number. looks like they're talking about going from 20,000 which they have now, to about 6,000. then you also shrink the gas supply. you get them to dilute or destroy most of that tonnage that you talked about, leave them with a very small amount so that even if they cheated, it would take them at least a year to be able to go from where they are to enough material for one bomb. >> the cheating, people say they cheated in the past. there were whole facilities that we didn't know about. how do you make sure that isn't happening? you can only have cameras where they allow you to put cameras. >> part of the deal is you want cameras everywhere. you want seals, inspections, inventory controls. you want to track the uranium from the time it comes out of the mine to the time it goes into that gas cylinder. i spoke with the director general of the iaea just last week. he said with the deal they're talking about, the iaea can assure they can detect any

amomly the day it happens, the next day or within the week. >> so if you get that kind of deal and i think it's possible, do you think politically this would work, this deal would get through? >> this deal is going to be attacked on both sides in iran because it doesn't allow iran to do enough. it will be attacking united states arab countries and israel that allows iran to do too much and keep too much. we won't have the confidence that we can discern the cheating soon enough. so we're going to have a debate whether this deal is good enough and like everything in life, and compared to what? i think president obama is going to face real opposition within the u.s. congress and i think quite early on, we could have a major debate in this country about whether to accept the deal under one legislative initiative or secondly whether to introduce more sanctions at this point which effectively would be a rejection of the deal. >> do you think the hardliners in iran will torpedo the deal

there or hardliners in washington will torpedo the deal? >> iran is an authoritarian system. at the end of the day, he's going to have are the decision. president obama is not. he's going to have much more trouble selling it here. >> do you think that when you look at this potential deal, do you believe it is possible for iran to the maintain this enormous nuclear program and yet, studiously stay within -- because it is trying to build more developed capacity, you know, can you be like japan, a very advanced civilian power that is always consciously not wepizing? weaponizing? >> we don't want iran to be in that japan situation, threshold aponizing? >> we don't want iran to be in that japan situation, threshold power. japan can build a bomb in a matter of months, if it wanted to. you want to keep iran down to a very low number of centrifuges. the technology that we're talking about is 1970s technology that they got from pakistan. part of the deal is they were

limited to any research. so yes, you can put iran's program in a box with a camera on it. what does iran get for that? that's part of the question that diplomats are dealing with today. >> you talk about the alternatives. when we didn't have any negotiations going on iran kept the centrifuges, even under sanctions. >> or unconstrained middle east where iran is essentially allowed to get weapons and others would obviously follow suit. these are obviously wildly unattractive circumstances. we're not looking to have another war. we don't want to see a middle east as bad as it is get even worse with nuclear weapons under multiple hands of control. some version of the status quo, more sanctions but we're not sure we can sustain it which again pushes us back to say can we get a deal that is good enough and preferable vis-a-vis these alternatives. that will be the focus of the debate. >> if we went down the bombing

path how long would it take for iran to rebuild the bombing program? >> it's appalling to me this discussion goes on. this is not a pinprick attack. this would be weeks of hundreds of u.s. sorties. this would be the beginning of a major war in the middle east that would make the wars in afghanistan and iraq look like warm-up acts. and it would have regional consequences consequences. if you think iran has influence everywhere, they will use that influence everywhere. this is not a war any military leader in the united states wants to fight. >> would you agree with that? >> like everything else in life, it depends. want to fight, of course not. but we also cannot live in a world where iran has nuclear weapons and where several other countries in the region follow suit. that would be catastrophically dangerous. the real question again is can you come up with a diplomatic alternative that's not perfect. that's not an option. again, is simply good enough and better than the alternatives because alternatives are not attractive. >> he's right. this is what you weigh it

against. the deal will be imperfect. you never buy the house for the price you initially offer. there will be compromises. what are the alternatives? once you get the deal and look at it it's far better than any of the risks in war or allowing iran to go ahead with an unconstrained program. >> gentlemen, thank you both very much. >> coming up, 500 years ago christianity had a reformation. my next guest says islam needs a similar reformation today. she says the religion is in crisis and it is decidedly not a religion of peace today.

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islam is not a religion of peace, that's what my next guest says, ayaan hirsi ali has never been one to mince words. she renounced her religion and has spoken out against radical islam since. now she says islam needs a reformation on the scale that cyst yabt had in the 16th century. indeed, martin luther had his 95

ppcs that sparked the protestant reformation. and sirsi ali lays it out in her book, "hairer ret"heretic." you say muslim is not a religion of peace. what is it? >> if you look at the reality today, you see tragically, 70% of fatalities across the world in conflicts muslims are involved and the greatest number of victims are muslims. the islamic civilization is in a crisis and i think that instead of having a military confrontation with every other civilization the answer lies in a reformation. >> so you disagree with president obama when he says the islamic state does not represent islam or he says it isn't islamic. what i want to ask you is this -- you are very smart, and you understand that he's not writing an intellectual

dissertation. this is not a thesis about the accurate way to describe isis. what he is trying to do is delet delegitimize them. and the king of jordan says please don't call them islamic. we don't call them islamic. the point is not that any of these leaders don't see that, of course, they are drawing on a version of islam, but they are trying to delegitimize it. by denying them that label. do you disagree with that strategy? >> i think the strategy of let's not call it islamic because we're going to delegitimize them has actually been tested. we've seen it in the u.s. since 9/11 2001. but in the muslim world, perhaps since three, four five decades ago, and it hasn't worked. it hasn't stopped them. >> let me understand. so you would rather the president of the united states

say, yes, the islamic state is islamic, it draws on important strains within islam and islam is a bad religion. you think that's going to be a successful strategy? >> i don't think i'll have our president say islam is a bad religion. but i would actually have the president acknowledge that we are fighting we're engaged in a war of ideas and that only the use of military use, drones counterterrorism tactics will only take you so far. i would like our president to acknowledge just like we were at war with the soefb yetviet union that we have amazing ideas. what america stands for. he gave this great speech in selma. that's what america is about. and i think if we engage in public diplomacy and market the ideas of life, and happiness as in the past we can persuade more and more muslims to give up five core concepts within islam that are holding them back. - >> stay with this question, though, because i do agree with your diagnosis of the problem.

i wonder, though, about the effectiveness of this idea of the west ideologically confronting the world of islam. do you think that the right strategies for the west, you know, an outside force, powerful. to say to the world of islam, you are all screwed up. you need to fix yourself reform. because in a sense, that's what many of the people who take the kind of views you do say. and i wonder to myself look and you know this because you grew up in somalia. i was growing up in i understand ya. if you had an outside power like the united states and the west telling you you're all screwed up, your attitude is actually the opposite to get very defensive. to say why, you know, to say there is nothing wrong with me. >> here is the statement i make in the book which is when it comes to the job of a theological reformation, it has to come from within. i regard myself as someone who was born within islam and

whether you like it or not, whether you agree with me or not, as a muslim i can take these theological positions. i can propose these five amendments. i'm not saying our western governments do the same but what the governments can do, what the west can do -- around the west is powerful and the west has choices. but above all, the west has the values that made the west prosperous and peaceful. the west can choose our allies and so far we have allied ourselves with the kingdom of saudi arabia. we've allied ourselves with the despots despots. we've seen the result of that. i think many of us in foreign policy redirect that. and there is this emerging group of reformers. i think that is the key change the west can make. providing a counter narrative in political and literal freedom and sharing our lines with the dissidents who share our values

instead of the despots. >> pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. great to see you, fareed. up next think learning how to write deeply analyzing are skills every human being needs to have if they're going to thrive in the world. many seem to disagree with me thinking all you need to know is code xurtsz. hear about the war against the rib ral arts when we come back.

folks can make a lot more folks can make a lot more potentially with skilled manufacturing or the trades than they might with an art history degree. >> that was president obama in january of last year. he later sent a handwritten note of apology to an art history professor to complain to the president about what he said. apology or not, the president's remarks struck me. i felt at the time and still do that the liberal arts are under attack. college students are increasingly being pushed away from majors like english and history and philosophy to a

skill-based one closer to engineering or computer science. to me, that trend is terribly short-sided. i felt passionately enough about it that i gave a commencement speak explaining a just why the liberal arts are so important. it received a pretty positive reaction to that and i turned it into a book. the book is called "in defense of a liberal education" and hits bookstores monday. joining me is a man that will turn the tables on me, my esteemed colleague anderson cooper. >> and a liberal arts major myself. i was relieved to read the book because i've always made fun of the education i received. it was from yale very good university. but i felt like i graduated without a skill, and this -- you write about this in the book. we heard from president obama but this is an issue it seems like republicans and democrats actually come together and agree on this. you're making the opposite case, that a general liberal arts education is the best way for young people to prepare themselves for a career. why?

>> this mantra about skills-based education has achieved that rare status in washington. it's the one thing that democrats and republicans agree on, the one thing obama and john boehner probably agree on, but it's wrong. traditionally america has always believed unlike in europe where they always thought apprenticeship and skills and very specific job-based training, we believed that a broad-based education is the best thing you can do because you teach people how to think, how to read how to study, how to write. and that those broad skills -- and most importantly, perhaps you teach them to follow their curiosity and to kind of love learning. that those broad skills are actually much more useful in the long run. the president of harvard once said the difference of a degree from a liberal education is not just to train you for your first job but your sixth job. what you need are these basic skills. if of course if you love science

and want to do science, that's part of a liberal education. but don't just do stuff because you think you'll learn the skills for that first job. because life is going to change. you'll be working for 40 or 50 years. >> i often found when you end up doing, the thing in your sixth job or whatever it is, you could never have predicted given your first job where you were going to end up and to try to predict is going to lead you down the wrong path. >> and that's the genius of the american system where it allows people to have that breadth where they start new companies, they switch careers. there is a very interesting book about 19th century education where it points out one of the reasons america embraced this broad liberal education was it was a big country. people kept moving. they didn't want to get stuck in some trade in new york city or boston for the rest of their lives, and that's what the work today is. things change all the time. technology changes. if you learned coding ten years ago, it's obsolete today. >> i feel like every few months or year there is a new study that comes out and shows u.s.

education falling far behind in rankings of other nations in math and science. does that matter? >> you know, it's a really interesting question, anderson, because the truth is i looked into this. the truth is the united states has never tested well. >> compared to other countries, right. >> the tests started in 1964. that was the first international test. i think it was 12 countries. the united states was middle of the pack. we're still middle of the pack. if you ask yourself how has the u.s. done in invasion, research, creating new industries? we've dominated the world. so there is this paradox where the united states doesn't test well in these science and math tests but continues to dominate the fields of technology and science. and why is that? so i tried to sort of figure this out and looked and asked myself what are the really other innovative countries. what everyone says sweden is probably the most innovative in europe.

it gets more venture capital funding than britain and germany. >> really? i didn't know that. >> israel, there is this wonderful book called "startup nation." they have more nasdaq listed companies than any country other than the united states and china. this is you know, 5 million or 6 million people. what i noticed is they also do very badly on these international tests. in fact, they do worse than the united states. but what do they have in common? they have non-hierarchy goal education systems. you can challenge the professor. you can follow your passion. you can ask questions. it's very flexible dynamic economy. look. a force would be best if everyone had strong math and science skills but maybe in creating real innovation what's equally or maybe more important is these other broader factors that you know you can fail and you can still pick yourself up. you can question authority. you have confidence. >> we have to take a short break. when we come back i'm going to talk to fareed what he learned

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okay. [ male announcer ] introducing xfinity my account. available on any device. and we are back on "gps" where anderson cooper, anchor of ""ac 360" is talking to me about the ideas behind my new book "in defense of a liberal education." >> it's interesting. when i first started reading the book i thought you're just defending a liberal arts education because that's what you had or you feel passionately about it. but you actually look at a lot of high-tech people. mark zuckerberg from facebook. jeff bezos from amazon. and both of them they put a lot into a liberal arts education. bezos puts a lot in the ability to learn how to write. he makes his executives write these long memos that you talk about in the book. zuckerberg himself really credits his training of

psychology as much as anything to do with technology for facebook. >> i thought that was the most fascinating piece for me when i talked to mark zuckerberg and asked him, you know, what he thought made facebook distinctive. he said it's not the technology though technology has to be world-class. he said that before facebook, the internet was a land of anonymity. you had these handles were synonymous. what he did was create a safe space where people could reveal their true identities. and in doing that he created a much more powerful platform because people could trust one another, they have share information. real information. and of course it is an advertiser's dream because now you know who these people actually are. all that came out of by his own admission. his interest in psychology. he was a psyc major and he stud

gied greek. steve jobs said unveiling an iphone, for apple, it's technology married to the liberal arts that makes our heart sing. >> and basos from amazon makes executives write six-page memos with a narrative with complete sentences and in meetings sometimes, there is a quiet time in the beginning where everybody has to read them and make notes about them. i think the ability to write is something that is so underrated by those who are just interested in the tech field or those interested in science or math. >> you know, i think the simplest way to explain it is say if you can't organize your thoughts and present them in a clear, logical form that's going to persuade somebody, you can have the best tech idea in the world. you're not going to convince somebody to fund you. you're not going to convince a consumer to buy it. that's why basos does what he does. you describe it right. he begins all senior strategy

meetings the way you describe. 20 to 30-minute period of quiet because in effect he's saying i don't want people to pretend they read the memo. i want to force you to actually read the memo. but think about the pressure on the memo writer. now you've got everybody sitting there reading. so it also makes these memos really well written. his argument is if you can't write it clearly, logically, cleanly, you don't have a good idea. >> how much trouble, then, are we in? when you look at statistics, the trend is not toward liberal arts education. >> it's terrible. i mean, if you look at majors like english history, philosophy they're plummeting. down to 20%, 30% of what they used to be. by the way, it's not like we're all becoming mechanical engineers or biologists because of course people's aptitude for science is in some cases limited. people instead are getting majors in marketing or business studies. i don't mind if you have a true

passion for it. but don't do a marketing major as a way of succeeding in business. if you're passionate about english or history, you can do just fine. >> what's your message to parents listening now sending their child off to college and paranoid their child will become a philosophy major? >> they should remember the chairman and ceo of the company of the company that owns cnn to say time warner . >> good advice. >> i just have to say, talking to you has given me hope that i have not completely wasted any four years of college. it's a fascinating book a free look at a liberal education. the most interesting man in the world, at least for me has died, the founding father of singapore and why i think that's superlative all when we come back. one of those guys who just can't stop talking.

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people often ask me who's the most interesting political figure you have ever interviewed? the answer to that question died last week and was put to rest today in a state funeral. what made lee kuan yew so special? most political feg yours can can either talk a good game or do stuff. lee was first class at both. conceptualizing and strategizing but then also executing. he saw the big picture, but he could then fill in the details. singapore was an accident a

country that was not meant to be. a single port county -- it was part of malaysia but was expelled from that country. mo no resources to speak of except for lee kuan yew. today singapore is one of the world's richest and most advance advanced economies. singapore's political system is closed with just one party, yew's since it's independence. it's regarded as clean by most international observers. it's economic system favors free markets and free trade, but with the government playing a large role in guiding, investing and encouraging at all levels. in an interview with him in 2008 i asked lee, why he

exercised so much political control over his society. what is it . >> what is it i'm trying to do? i'm trying to create in a third world situation, a first world oasis. i'm not following any prescription given by any democracy whatsoever. i work with principles what will get me there, social peace and stability within the country, no fight within the races, between religion whatever. fair shares for everybody. everybody is a homeowner. must i follow your prescription to succeed? do i want to be like america? yes, in it's inventiveness, in it's creativeness but do i want to be like america with it's inability to control the drug problem? no.

or the gun problem? no. these are my choices. i go by what is good governance. what are the things i aim to do? healthy society, that gives everybody a chance to achieve its maximum. >> lee also had to maintain a careful balancing act between the united states china and other powers to keep his city state independent. i easked a question about foreign policy that remains pertinent. what do you want from the next president? >> engagement with the world. keep trade going, don't backtrack. or you'll put yourself at a disadvantage put the world at a disadvantage. and you'll make conflicts more likely.

try and maintain a balance so that peace and stability is assured without more conflicts. >> lee was asked equestionquestions about his personal life as he was about politics. you turn 85 tomorrow. is there a lesson what are the secrets to longivity and -- >> longevity is r is based on what you got from your mother and father. my father died at 74. my mother died at 74. i had my first heart problem when i was 74 in 1996. fortunatelien like her time they could do an geo plasity and a stint. so that solved.

at 85 i don't think i reached my father's 94. >> he was right. lee kuan yew died on march 23 at the age of 91. that is our show today, thanks to all of you for being part of it i will see you next week. hello, everyone and thank you for joining us. we begin with breaking news. stunning new details today about the last minutes of the germanwings flight that crashed in the alps last weekend killing all on board. the german magazine is reporting that the co-pilot encouraged the plane's pilot to take a bathroom break. and when the pilot left investigators say it was at that point that the co-pilot locked himself