everybody! there's is the war between biker gangs over or just beginning? this is "cnn tonight" i'm don lemon. listen to what police say. >> i will tell you that in the gang world and in the biker world, violence usually condones more violence. is this over? most likely not. >> tonight, we're going to talk to the investigators tracking biker gangs and a man who knows firsthand what it's like in gangs. there he is right there, duane dog chapman. dog the bounty hunter will join us. some people say we would talking about this all very differently if the gangs were black. but does race have anything to do with this? and speaking of that how young

is too young for your kids to learn about racism? one top new york city school is starting with children as young as 8 and some parents are outraged. can racism be stopped in the third grade? but i want to begin this broadcast tonight with new developments in that deadly biker brawl. cnn's kyung lah live for us in waco this morning. good evening, kyung. so many bikers charged from opposing gangs and each being held on $1 million bond. how are law enforcement, how are they handling these guys right now? >> reporter: well to quote the sheriff, line 'em up. that's essentially what they're doing. this is all happening inside the jail. 170 of them. you can imagine the logistical challenge. what they had to do they lined them up here they brought them to the jail they had to book them charge them and make sure that each of them was arraigned. all of this happening inside the jail. the sheriff today also defending a $1 million bail on each of these suspects. here's what he told us. is this a message to the other biker gangs from this county?

>> very definitely. you know you want to cause this kind of trouble, you want to come into mclennan county and stab people shoot people beat them up you need to think twice. you need to do it somewhere else. >> reporter: at last check, the sheriff says that none of the people who have been arrested have managed to come up with the bond. don? >> kyung, i understand police are still searching the scene and still uncovering evidence. what can you tell us about that? >> reporter: what we've been seeing is really a process. every minute they appear to be going through each of these individual cars. you can still see that there are still some cars left in the parking lot. all of this is still from the sunday shooting. they're going into every single car, and they're pulling out a catch cache of weapons. they're continuing to pull out long rifles, we're seeing handguns. this is on top of the handguns

they've already recovered, the knives the chains with padlocks on them. so the 100-plus weapons that they said that they had already recovered, that number is climbing don. >> and kyung, what are you learning about the bikers killed in sunday's massacre? any new information about that? >> reporter: there was a preliminary autopsy report that was released today. the waco police department have asked us to refrain from reporting the names, but we have learned a few details. every single one of the nine bikers who was killed was killed by a gunshot wound. and they are all between the ages of 27 to 65. >> kyung lau reporting to us from waco. thank you very much. i want to talk with steve cook who worked undercover in a gang and executive director of the midwest outlaw motorcycle gang investigators' association. also billy queen is a retired atf agent and the author of "under and alone," the true story of the undercover agent that infiltrated a motorcycle

gang. so here we are, another night, billy, we're hearing people say today that this violence is probably not over. that in the biker world, once a war starts it never ends. so what happens next? >> well i've heard that too. i think things are going to cool down because the eyes of the nation are on texas right now. and although the bikers do a lot of stupid stuff, they're not that stupid. they're not stupid enough to go out and start shooting police officers especially other gangsters, while everybody in the country's watching them. >> but they shot at police officers when this all happened. what makes you think that that won't happen again? >> well it was a very emotional time and when a melee starts then things are out of control. right now, things are a bit back

in control. so doing a premeditated act against police even against other bikers right now, with the entire country watching is just going -- it's going to be easy to put them in jail. they know that. >> i want to ask you -- >> it's probably going to subside for a while, but it's not over. >> you said it's not over. when you were undercover with the atf, your name was billy streetjohn and you know all about this. do you think there were undercover agents in the gang from sunday's brawl? >> you know i don't know about that. it would surprise me if the law enforcement didn't have some people there, gathering intelligence either inside that restaurant or outside, that would be a normal process for law enforcement to have somebody inside not necessarily undercover but people that can mix in and just gather intelligence. listen and hear what's going on. i would be surprised if there weren't some that were in there.

>> terry, let's talk about the 170 members that were being held on $1 million bond each. each of them on organized crime charges. i've heard this both ways most of the active members aren't involved in organized crime. what is it? are most gang members actively involved in organized crime? >> well they're an organization that is involved in crime. you can't be a member of a motorcycle gang and not be involved in violence. one of the reasons those people stood and fought and shot at each other because they were in a gang. you were expected to do that you live or die for the gang so that's what they do. >> what will it be like with all these guys together in jail? and apparently it's a little bit of a challenge, i hear to book them all and keep them separate. so what's that challenge like? >> i'm not an expert in corrections. i've been there on mass arrests, where we've locked up 50 to 80 motorcycle gang members and you do have to keep them separated. i'm sure their correctional people know that.

they deal with gangsters all the time. but in this case you have a heightened sense of problems because these guys hate each other, and they'll use surrogates to get to each other. >> yeah. steve, we keep hearing that this may all have started over patches worn on bikers' jackets. the bandidos gang apparently say this is part of texas and took offense to the cossachs wearing a texas patch. do you believe that? >> i believe that. territory is extremely important. anybody that's claiming a state they're claiming what goes on in that state. they're claiming ownership of it. and texas has always been a red and gold state. it's always been bandido controlled and for a group like the cossacks to step up to them it's basically like a slap in

the face to them saying we don't respect you. we're equal to you and we are as much entitled to this state as you are. >> you guys heard billy say that he doesn't believe there's going to be anymore violence like there was, that no one will be shooting at police officers and so on. do you guys agree with that? >> i agree with that. i don't think these guys are that stupid to do that. terry? >> i agree that you won't see overt, in my opinion, violence. but you've got to understand it. there are people who will try to curry favor with these gangs that will do something violence and try to use that to step into the gang or step up in the gang. anytime anybody tells me they're going to hurt me i believe them. >> is this the same as street gangs where they have a no-snitching policy? is this their code as well terry? >> absolutely. if you're a snitch there's phrases like snitches get stitches but they're also going to kill them.

we've had informants in other cases that have been severely injured or killed. i've had informants who have had their houses burned down. they do not tolerate informants. >> steve, do you want to weigh in on that? >> terry's absolutely right. you'll see one of a couple of things happen. you'll tell who's hard-core and who's not, now that the smoke's kind of settled a little bit. you're going to have members of both organizations, i can assure you, that are going to roll their patches. some of these guys that aren't as hard as the others the, are going to look at this and say, you know what? i like to get high i like to chase women, and i don't mind a fistfight, but murder was never part of the plan. so you may have some guys step away on both sides of the equation but like terry was saying you're also going to have associates and support club members that may look at the fact that say, hey, i'm in a subordinate club to the bandidos right now, but if i were to hunt one of these guys and take them

out some place off the grid so to speak, i could definitely move myself up into the organization and fill a gap that now exists with a lot of people locked up in jail. >> gentleman, thank you very much. steve, billy, and terry, appreciate your expertise on this. we have much more to come on this subject tonight. when we come back a man who knows a lot about life inside a biker gang. dwayne "dog" chapman. and race and kids. how young is too young to teach children about racism.

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deadly violence that exploded in waco sunday was a shock to a lot of people who think wirkbiker gangs are a thing of the past. i want to talk about the culture of these gangs with dwayne "dog" chapman. as a teenager he was a member of the devil's disciples, a motorcycle gang in arizona. now he stars in cmt's "dog and beth on the hunt." who's the boss you or beth? >> i know you heard me off-camera. i'm the boss. but you know, i'm the boss but you know television. so she tries to be. >> let's talk real life now, dog. you joined the devil's disciples when you were just 15 years old and that's how you actually got the name dog. how did you react to sunday's deadly brawl when you heard about it? >> well, one thing that hasn't changed is you know, the biker

wars. it's kind of like the hatfields and mccoys. it is you know, everyone's calling them gangs, and i appreciate steve, billy, and terry saying that but it's more the clubs we're talking about now are more organized. so they're organizations. when you say gang ss, you think of small street thugs. these are organizations. they're not just gangs. >> you call them -- you said you think of small street thugs, most everyone i know i have heard the media call these guys thugs. do you consider them thugs? >> well you know, no i don't car them thugs. i mean there's some morality in them. the shoot-out is terrible. they need to get somewhere down there right now to negotiate. because they are smart, they will negotiate, they will make a deal. you don't, you know, spit in the wind pull on superman's cape and you don't wear colors from another club into a town worth -- that's already been

claimed by another club. unless you're trying to start a war. so the sheriff is doing right, $1 million bail. i don't know if that will stick too long. the only thing you can do in that town is no colors. the back of the jacket is again, what your guys, your experts talk -- the name of the club the jacket itself is what they die for. the only way you can solve this is like they used to do it years ago, we were not allowed to wear our colors inside a city limit. i won't tell you what city that was, so we didn't go to that city. you know what you need to do right now, if you outlaw these guys and they can't be you know organized crime, you've got to say, if you come into this county mclennan county you better not be flying any kind of colors and that's it. the only kind of colors we'll let you fly is on the ice cream trucks and that will stop them. >> so it's incumbent upon, you

say, the municipalities or the city officials to stop it and put up a rule or law that says you cannot wear these colors right? >> absolutely. the sheriff can do -- in texas, the sheriff is in charge of his county. so if he says you know makes an administrative order, that right now during this war right here like he said take it somewhere else. you're not doing it in texas. so during this war down here if you have any kind of colors on and you cross that county line, you're going to jail. i mean that's you know, amazing. >> so here's the thing. you said that you know, people are calling these guys you said they're a bit more organized than what they are portraying. so was it about organized crime? is it about camaraderie? what is the real mission here. i'm hearing some people say, no you know we're not really a gang. we don't really do bad things. we've weeded them out. but if you look at what happened this weekend, it looks pretty terrible. what is the real mission here?

>> well i think what happened this weekend looks terrible. something went off, okay. some bad mistakes. i also heard, i have my sources that were at the scene, and it sounded like some cops were doing some shooting also. so it went bad. it started inside with fist-to-fist worked its way out, somebody pulled a gun, and it's on when you have that many organized people together like that biker gangs. biker groups. you know it's very sad that it happened. every one of them is not like that. but someone started it. you don't do that. there are certain things you don't do you don't wear colors from another gang into an area a state, a city, a county that other motorcycle clubs have sore you're looking for trouble. you're going there for trouble. >> so they deliberately wanted to provoke a fight. and that's what you believe. because you believe that someone came in from another town a biker gang that wasn't invited

to twin peaks and they showed up and that's what started it. is that what you're hearing? >> what i'm hearing is exactly that. now, years ago, i don't know of course about today, but if we travelled from state to state, county to county there were certain places where we showed respect, we took our jackets off, and we rode through there. because we didn't want to die or get in a shoot-out or kill someone. in the state of texas, you're looking at 99 years for murder. there are going to be a lot of guys fall for this. but that does not detour -- you ask, is this brotherhood? a lot of biker gangs today are put together with a lot of military. this brotherhood, this loyalty started back in the '50s in the military. a lot of thaezese guys are very integrity intelligent and they were trained by the military. these are brothers with different mothers. this is like blood. they are thick. they are really in it for the camaraderie and then something goes bad. it's like you have eight brothers that are all blood brothers and you walk down and

flip the bird to one of them. those brothers are going to stick together. that's exactly what the gang the organizations are. and that's what people are -- >> dog? >> i'm sorry, go ahead. >> but these brothers though they are still finding weapons from this weekend. i mean if this is about camaraderie, why do you need to be loaded and armed to the hilt? why? i mean that doesn't seem to be about camaraderie? >> well believe it or not, people go out together shooting. they don't shoot other people. they go out together either hunting or shooting targets. it's a man -- i guess it's a manly thing. i mean. i haven't been able to touch a weapon for 38 years, because i'm a felon. but before that i used to like to go shooting with my brothers. we'd make a target and it's something that we'd do. that doesn't mean that they're criminals. you know there's outlaw motorcycle gangs in america. there are also they call them american motorcycle association,

which is gangs, you know like the shriners. they all have harleys and they stick together. it's just something that goes with the outlaw persona, is the guns the knives the chain belts, that's just something. but they don't go out like you know robbing banks and shooting innocent babies and stuff like that. again, it's like the hatfields and mccoys. there are certain rules in america that you live by and when someone breaks someone tries to start a beef and nine men are dead. and luckily, there's not more dead or you know, they've got a tough sheriff in that county or there would be a lot more dead. >> dog, i appreciate your candor and thank you for coming on. you're the only person who has offered a solution and that is it's incumbent upon the sheriff and law enforcement to say, don't bring this crap into my county or into my town or city. thank you, dog. i'll be watching. >> yes, sir. you're welcome. thank you very much. >> when we come right back some people say there is a double standard in the way we talk

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it's going to be interesting, because they're already going at it the panel, that is. the people who burned and looted in baltimore were called thugged, but what about the violent bikers in waco? let's talk about it with harry hauk a cnn law enforcement analyst and a former new york city police detective. charles blow cnn political commentator and sally cohn cnn political commentator, progressive activist and columnist, whose last column on cnn.com says the waco coverage shows a double standard on race. what are you trying to start? are you trying to start a revolution? >> yeah a revolution that would end in everyone in this country being treated fairly by both our expectations and our system including law enforcement and the media, yes. call me a radical. >> you've talked about in your column and you tweeted and said muslim only has to attack one person to be a terrorist. >> threaten -- attack right. >> a black man just has to be killed by cops to be thug. but nine dead, uh biker gang?

>> and let's be clear. i don't think it's the most helpful thing if we just get mired in the language. the language is a stand-in for disparate treatment. the real problem here is that white americans and black and brown americans have a radically different experience of our police of our banks, of the criminal justice system, you name it. that's the problem. >> i don't disagree with you on that part. but on the language part and about the moildedia double standard i think it's bull. i have heard everybody on this show including on this show we have called them thugs at least -- >> and everybody's calling them thugs because we said they weren't calling them thug. >> no not everybody believes that "thug" is a new way of saying the n-word. the first thing that comes to my mind when someone says "thug" is not a black person. i think tony soprano. they are thugs!

the people in baltimore who rioted and burned down buildings. they were thugged. the people in waco who shot people are thugs. it has nothing to do with being black or white. >> i still think number one people are going out of the word now in response to the show. but it's not inherently a racialized phrase. you have to look at context. >> we've got to let these guys talk. go ahead. >> like what is that a question? >> i mean do you think it's fair to compare this to compare waco between baltimore and ferguson. do you think it's fair to compare that? >> i think it's always fair to analyze whether or not we're using comparable measures of whatever -- however people behave. so if people are behaving in a way that is uncivil, we need to -- we always check to see if we are treating those people the same sort of way. so whether or not you call that person a thug here or in waco or not, let's just make sure that that application -- that the application of those words are

the same. i do believe that there is something to what you're saying which is that you know, there is a spobsresponse to a very -- a very quick response online where people said, the first ways that these people were described, were not in these very very negative ways that we associate with. and even if you say, biker, gang outlaw in the american zeitgeist, these are somewhat romanticized figures, in a way. because the biker image, the outlaw image, is always -- >> but has historically -- >> roll a shot of the people who were arrested the people in the gang here. there's a shot of them if you look at it. >> what is a good word? >> look at these people! not all of these people are white. not all of these people are white. >> a good word would be the same word which is -- >> you want -- >> no! a good word -- >> the same word -- >> i want every american to evaluate criminality the same way, rather than in different ways because of the way that a

person looks. i don't care what words you use, call them the devil. but do it all the time with everyone who behaves in a criminal fashion. >> that's right. >> but if you don't do that -- >> here's the thing. sally talked about it in terms of the media. in baltimore, it wasn't the media. it was the president and the mayor who called the people thugs. it wasn't the media calling people thugs. >> and i criticized that too. >> but the media did go there and analyzed in every possible way what their, the sociology of that group was like what the town was like how many people there did not have fathers in their homes. we've looked at kind of pathologyies rather than looking at their individual people who did individual -- >> but charles, the reason we did that is because the story -- hang on one second. the reason we did that is because the story was about race. it was about a black suspect, someone who died and a white -- >> let me ask you -- >> let me finish. i'll let you go.

hang on let me finish. we did the same thing about the pathology of gangs. i'm not saying -- yes, most things in america are about race. but i don't think this is an equal comparison. >> it's not necessarily it's all only about race but race is a component, just as gender is a component, just as where you grew is up a component. >> absolutely! >> and shooting at each other before a race riot. >> i'm sorry, i'm sorry. the idea that we feel like when black people behave some of them behave in a way that is that breaks the law, then we have the pathologize the entire communities and look for differences about their family structures and we have asked the tough questions. and in this case, we're not asking the same thing about the white -- >> we are asking the same -- >> but -- i haven't heard one person ask how many of these people came from single-family households. >> this is not about race. they're not fighting each other -- >> it's never about race!

>> not all of these are white people! >> and excuse me not all the people doing looting were necessarily black. but i didn't notice anyone rushing to make that point. i've been getting e-mails all day pointing out, some of them are black, some of them are latino. why is it that we are in such a hurry to criminalize people -- >> because it's the only way you want to recognize it in your head? >> i'm sorry. when mass shooters with the majority of mass shooters in this country are white men -- >> mass shooters yes. >> why don't we have a conversation every time about white men? >> we do! we do! we talk about -- yes, we do! >> in proportion -- excuse me! is it not in proportion. it is incorrect. let me also say, there has been a study in new york where there is an epidemic problem of racialization and profiling of young men of color, in new york new york police stations show and over-cover crimes committed by black people committed by white people. they over-cover it. we over-cover it. we didn't cover baltimore as the

media because people were protested, we covered it because the community got violent. >> that's because -- >> it is is no -- >> it is because crime is out of control in certain areas in this city. >> still, to this day. >> and out of control in waco texas. >> in waco? in that spot? yes. >> you know where areas are, where there exists concentrated poverty and the overlap between concentrated poverty and criminality is enormous. but that is not the data that the fbi collects. what the fbi does ask is whether what their race was. and therefore, people link race to criminality, which is a racist concept, in and of itself rather than linking criminality to concentrated poverty. yale did a study of chicago. people love to bring up chicago. wherever you talk about criminality and shootings, chicago, chicago. well they went and looked at chicago and they realized that most of those shooters were happening in areas of concentrated poverty and only 4 to 6% of those people were

shooters or -- >> you're absolutely right about that. charles, you're right about that but i think that this story about the bikers is not a fair comparison because this story does not have the element of race in it. you are trying to push -- >> this is the way you define and it that's how you want to define it. and this is the way we're defining it all right? you look at it from your view and we're looking at it from our viewer okay? >> what view is that? >> so who is right? >> what view is that though? >> i don't think -- >> every time -- >> but every time there's black criminality, i have to zip this skin up and put it on and we have to talk about black pathology. but when there is -- >> but charles, when we're talking about stories that involve race -- >> -- does not include black -- but you keep -- you jumping on both sides of the fence. sometimes you're saying we're talking about stories that involve race -- >> if you're talking about stories that -- >> you -- this -- tony morrison has this great phrase. >> i've got to go.

>> -- you are racialized. the idea you can't put it on to you, but not on to me is ridiculous. >> we can't do this until we once that black people and white people in this country have a very different experience with the police system. if if it had been a bunch of black bikers armed to the hilt having a meeting known by police and the police just sat there and waited until they became violent -- >> there's no way you can say that sally. >> i can. i can. i think it's a legitimate conversation. >> we will continue this conversation. i think it's to compare this to stories about race i think it's an unfair comparison. up next another heated controversy at an elite private school in new york city has a mandatory curriculum about race that some parents call progressive, others call it segregation. we'll hear from both sides, when we come right back.

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fuelson is one of new york city's most progressive and elite private elementary schools. but a new program meant to teach students about race has some parents up in arms.

jason carroll has the story. >> reporter: a private school in new york city known for its liberal socially conscience alumni but some parents say one of its progressive programs might be going too far in the name of diversity. it began with this e-mail sent in january to parents of the elementary school's third, fourth and fifth graders asking those parents to identify their children by race so those children could be part of a new mandatory curriculum starting with the third graders at the lower school designed to booths self-esteem among children of all races. it works in part by separating the young students into affinity groups based on their race. the theory for 45 minutes, once a week students can talk about concerns they may not feel comfortable talking openly about in front of people of other races. many parents support the idea but others call it segregation. alex greenberg is a sophomore at fieldstone too old for the new

program, but still very interested in it. >> how do you think the program is being received here at the school? >> i think that it is beginning to get better. >> reporter: greenberg, with the help of his journalism adviser, wrote an article for the school's paper about the program. >> the idea of having affinity groups or at least having a space where you are among people who understand the issues that you're discussing you do not feel afraid to bring up these issues because you might offend somebody. that at its core is the inspiration behind the affinity groups. the problem, like we were saying is that when you try to divide people up because there are so many different categories and so many different races. >> i don't think there was enough outrage in the early stages so there's been this real mix. >> reporter: multi-racial students are given multiple options of which groups to join but some parents of those students still not comfortable with forcing a third grader to choose. and why mandatory. the lower school's principal

tells us he is quote, very proud of the program and what we're doing, though he declined to answer specifics. melanie killen is a developmental psychologist who prevents program focusing on children and race. she applauds progressive approaches to education, baaut has concerns. >> we are in a culture where we have people bi-racial, multi-racial different ethnic groups and it creates a somewhat of a false dichotomy, white, black, and if you have other categories it's sort of reinforcing that a little bit. >> a living lesson on race and the pitfalls of trying to do the right thing. jason carroll, cnn, new york. >> all right. joining me now, sunny hostin cnn legal analyst, the mother of a fieldstone student, who is in the program. also joining me is tanikia thomas all parents of fieldstone students. how are you feeling? >> thank you, don.

>> so salespeoplepeak your mind. it's an important conversation. ben and vanessa, both your children are in this program. so they have been told, you know all about it. >> yeah. so what happened? what do you think of it? >> i've been very pleased, actually. my daughter has had five sessions and they're 45 minutes in length and she is in the self-selected white group and she's really been able to explore some i think, quite complicated issues and i've been quite pleased with the results. >> your daughter right? >> mm-hmm. >> does she tell you what they've been saying in the group? >> well she has been telling me what a 9-year-old would probably share with their mother. but they are really discussing about their own identity how they can reflect that back to others in the community, how the group is the same how the group is different, and then they get into issues of really about racial sensitivity by the end of

it. >> and your kid -- how many kids do you have? >> i have three kids two who are in the program now. and they've had a different experience. and i guess i feel that -- my wife and i, are uncomfortable with the program and are not supporters of it -- >> but they're in the program. >> they're in the program. >> but you don't like it? >> we don't like the program. >> why not? >> again, i think there's segregation. we don't like that aspect of it. and we haven't seen any data. they haven't released a climate survey or, you know they keep just saying you know trust us. and i went to fieldstone and it's a great place and i love the school but we have a lot of serious questions. this is a program that's never been done anywhere else. it's the mandatory nature of it. >> you think it fosters segregation and you don't think it should be mound torandatory. >> i think if you're in school and your class is doing something, everyone should do it. so it's okay if it's mandatory, but i don't think it should be segregated. i think they should all do it. >> tanika?

>> so my daughter is in the second grade and hasn't started the program yet, but i could not be more excited about the program and wish it had started in the second grade so she could be a part of it. i think it's going to be an absolutely valuable tool. i think it's pushing the envelope and i think it's what we need to really progress the racial discussions that we are constantly having at all levels. >> like we just had on this program. >> exactly. >> adults are sometimes or most times not good at talking about this issue. >> and i think that's what we're seeing. >> maybe it's time we teach our kids about it sunny? no you don't -- >> don, you know that i spend most of my day talking about issues about race and racial justice and social justice. >> and with your kids. >> and certainly i do discuss this with my children. and i choedsse fieldstone because it is diverse and progressive. we want racial influency if our children are going there. the problem that i have quite frankly, is the mandatory nature of these affinity groups. that is problematic to me. my child is multi-racial.

we are black, we are white, we are latino. she has sort of had this sort of goldielocks experience. first she was in the white group, and then in the black group, and now in the latino group because she gets to practice her spanish. i think to have 8-year-olds self-identify by race is very problematic, because, as ben said there is no research -- >> but sunny, you understand -- >> this is the only school in the country doing this. >> but you understand that all of the -- it has to start somewhere. you know somewhere, some school started new math and it was the first one. it has to start somewhere. and you spend a lot of your time talking about that. if you -- when your daughter or son walks down the street they don't see them as a, you know, someone who comes from a multi-racial -- they see them as either a black person an hispanic person or a white person. that's how society sees your kid. what's wrong with teaching the kid about that and then

discussing it with them rather than have them leave in this false reality that race doesn't matter? because it does. >> and i would never advocate this notion that race doesn't matter. i think we all can agree on that. but, i think, again, to have 8-year-olds, 9-year-olds, 10-year-olds have to explore their racial identity which can be very fluent it's been very fluent for me in my life because i'm multi-racial is misplaced given the fact there is no research to support the mandatory nature of the affinity groups. voluntary, sure. >> we'll get into the program and also living in that sort of liberal, wealthy, enclave, which is not necessarily the reality around the country. the kids are very, you know they're spoiled a bit, don't you think? >> privileged. >> and they're very privileged. i'm glad you said that word because we'll talk about white privilege as well. coming up are students learning the right lessons about race or could there be unintended consequences when we come right back? we'll hear from the rest of the parents.

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welcome back everybody. we're talking about new york's elite fieldstone school trying to teach its students about race by separating them according to race. but the lesson may not be going

as planned. back with me, sunny hostin tanikia thomas ben hotter and vanessa, all parents from fieldstone. i'm going to read this. i read the entire thing and it started getting to the crux of it at the end. this is the article from "new yorker" magazine. and it says the ambitions of fieldstone the fieldstone program and some programs are better articulated by the school than others. but at the base the school hopes to initiate what calls an authentic conversation about race which researchers suggest may actually have been inhibited by liberal values for decades. which meaning, under the spell of colorblindness that people go on and on and they subconsciously and unconsciously, they don't have to talk about race so that makes them very comfortable. so do you see any credence in that? >> i absolutely do. i think that -- >> because who wants to be colorblind? >> a lot of people. >> in my experience nobody

wants that. look i think that in my experience in being involved in diversity training both as a participant and also as a trainer, one of the challenges that i see all the time is that whites are left out of the conversation of race. that somehow, that race is a topic for everybody else but whites are somehow not a race and therefore, i think that this program that addresses the participation of whites in a racial discussion is really critical. >> whites don't see themselves as a race, they see themselves as the ideal, unknowingly. >> i don't think -- >> everyone else is a race. >> i think that what happens is that the white concept is a majority cultural concept, and so that therefore, whites are left feeling like they don't have any right or any ability to engage in that conversation at all. >> go ahead. >> i think segregation is

dangerous. the board brown versus board of education was passed for a reason. i understand this is a private school and i'm not saying it's illegal, but i'm not sure it wouldn't be illegal in the public schools. this afternoon, i watched your piece about the prom -- they had a segregated prom in georgia, a white one and a black one, i believe that that's bad segregation, but that this is okay segregation -- i think it's -- who's the arbitrator of that? who decides that? >> i don't think it's that. i think that takes it to a different level. so we're separating kids for 45 minutes, five times, for the years. and we're letting them have a discussion and have a place where they can feel safe to talk about anything related to race. i think people assume that i don't go to fieldstone because i'm black. i think people make these assumptions that this is what's happening. they feel very much uncomfortable having those same conversations when their white friend is sitting there, because maybe that specific white friend doesn't feel that way. and they're not saying that all people don't feel that way, but this is the experience they're

having. giving them a safe environment where they can feel comfortable expressing themselves. >> and they can ask questions about -- because quite honestly i think kids need a space to go like we do when we're together ugh, white people or you know, straight people or gay people or whatever and be comfortable about it. it's not necessarily racist but in order to overcome certain things about race you have to allow -- you have to be allowed to make mistakes and ask the question. otherwise, it never gets -- >> but is it the role of the school? >> absolutely it's the role of the school. if you're sending your kid to the school for most of the day and teaching them reading, writing, and arithmetic i have not used any sort of arithmetic or writing -- >> that's not true. >> but most of what i've used in my professional life social interactions. >> to be clear, i think that fieldstone is a wonderful school. i think it is well-intentioned in this program and i think it generally gets it right.

however, fieldstone is the only school that uses mandatory affinity groups in the country as the linchpin of teaching racial literacy. this program, to me sounds a lot more like racial identification rather than racial literacy. we can all agree, we want our children to have -- >> listen i've got to go but i want to say -- >> is this the methodology? is this the right -- >> you're probably concerned about the way that it was initiated. >> concerned about the methodology. >> there is some good in teaching kids about race. >> of course but perhaps in a different setting. >> and i would argue the setting is the perfect setting. >> i agree. >> i'm so glad that all of you came. now i have to use arithmetic. the clock says 56:52 and i have to go in five four three, two one. we'll be right back.

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that's it for us tonight. i'm don lemon. see you right back here tomorrow night. "a.c. 360" starts right now. good evening. thanks for joining us. tonight, late details in the waco gang shoot-out, including the search for one suspect whose bail was somehow set much lower than 170 others. the question is mow did that happen? we have some answers tonight. also tonight, hillary clinton, she's gone 28 days without answering questions from reporters. questions about e-mails, the millions that she and her husband have made and more now, after nearly a month, she