a lot less grateful. jeanne moos cnn, new york. >> thank you so much for joining us. set your dvr to report "outfront" and watch us any time. i'll see you back here same time same place tomorrow. ac360 with anderson cooper begins right now. >> a story that has not stopped producing new and surprising developments after the shooting of a suspect armed with a combat knife outside of a cvs. first we learned he was under surveillance by the terrorism task force and then armed and then that he had an accomplice and that he was plotting to akill local police officers and that he planned to behead a new yorker activist pamela geller and that is far from the only development tonight. and two reports tonight starting with alexandra field. >> police say he pilled a

military style knife on him and that is why they shot and killed usaama rahim but he posed a threat even before killing him in a parking lot. the man under 24 hour surveillance from the joint terrorism task force had purchased weapons on internet prosecutors believe, in a plot to behead an unnaturaled target. but over time the plot formed by isis changed. rahim said in a text to an associate, i can't wait that long. i can't wait that long man. he later writes i'm going to be on vacation right here in massachusetts. i'm just going to go after them nose boys in blue. because it is the easiest target and the most common is the easiest for me. vacation code for jihad according to investigators.

boys in blue in obvious reference to law enforcement. those messages sent police say, to 25-year-old david wright now charged in federal court with conspiracy and attempting to obstruct justice by destroying a cell phone. on tuesday police searched his home and a warwick, rhode island home and it is related to the investigation and police haven't said how. but police are explaining why they took action outside of the cvs, confronting a man they've spent years watching. >> our officers went out there to only question the individual. we never anticipated what his reaction would be. and that he would pull out obviously a military knife. at that point, the video clearly shows these four or five officers backtracking away from the suspect as he's coming at them. >> surveillance video that captured the deadly shooting

hasn't been shown to the public. instead, civil rights and islamic community leaders were invited to privately view it in an effort to clear up misinformation police say, after rahim's brother posted on line he was shot three times in the back at a bus stop while on the phone with his father. >> based on the video i would say 150% slab rate with what the commission just stated that there was an approach to -- approach to the shuft to -- the suspect to talk to him. the officers were backing up as i saw, and then things went down as you know. >> and now you spoke to rahim, and what is he saying about all of this? >> he worked as a security guard and at the time of his death he was living with his mother a nurse and two brothers. two imams say they known him

since he was a young boy and attended mosque with some regularity and he was observant and his family devout but they have no recollection of him expressing any ideas or beliefs they felt were extreme or radical. they know that authorities have reason to think otherwise and they were following this man for years before that encounter. >> we appreciate the update. and the target list was not limited to the boston area or everyday members of law enforcement. more on the new york angle and pamela geller. pamela brown joins us with that. what do you know about it? >> reporter: this is what we are learning from law enforcement official. that the controversial activism was the target of the beheading plot among david wright who was arrested and showed up in court today and a third individual. according to law enforcement, the three met on a beach in rhode island this past sunday to discuss this beheading plot to

go up to new york and behead pamela geller according to officials. and they we learned that yesterday morning rahim changed his mind officials said and called write and said he didn't want to wait any more and wanted to kill police officers. now we did reach out to pamela geller and she told us she hadn't heard about the threat. she's been the subject of many threats because she is the woman who, as we know organized the mohammed cartoon drawing event in garland, texas, where there was an attempted terrorist attack. she hadn't heard about this one and said this is a showdown for american freedom. >> is there any indication that he also wanted to behead the police officers that he was targeting in boston? >> reporter: so what we're being told anderson right now at this -- stage in the investigation, there isn't concrete evidence he wanted to behead the police officers but

investigators believe he wanted to do that. that he may have wanted to do that. because he had the military style knife and he allegedly wanted to behead pamela geller and a follower of isis who have been pushing this and used this tactic against others. so i think investigators believe that but at this stage in the investigation, there isn't concrete evidence to prove that that is what he wanted to do. >> pam brown, i appreciate it. and the former homeland security adviser and teaches at harvard school and bob baer is a former cia officer and cnn analyst. and good to see you both. and the fact that this suspect wanted to behead somebody given how relative it is to pull off that type of attack. >> exactly, anderson. with a knife like that you take down a police officer. you attack them from the back in their cars any number of ways. the knives are easy to get, they

are not registered low technology is an islamic state tactic and don't forget the propaganda value of killing a police officer. the reverberations would be incredible. and this was, for them an important attack. and we should forget they don't mind the attacker dying, it is an act of martyrdom. there is killing the police man and dying afterwards. >> it is interesting. because it is as bob was saying low tech. it is a simple kind of attack. but the kind of repercussions of it would be huge. we saw this in the united kingdom when a british soldier was killed pretty much beheaded on the streets by attackers who then were video taped right afterward talking to a video camera. >> that is exactly right. look these kind of terrorists or this kind of terrorism is

looking for convenience and amplifying their message and killing or beheading a cop is what they had in mind. the affidavit probably makes it clearer than what we've heard publicly beheading was part of the plan there is some reference to rahim and wright and they mimic what occurs in the isis videos. so that to me looking at this from the outside explains why there was such a need to approach rahim. they heard there was the guys on the beach saying we can't wait any longer and tuesday and wednesday was going to be the date and now there is the reason why they approached them on tuesday. >> and i don't want to give away but in terms of the kind of following that would have been done on this person they said he had been under surveillance for a long period of time. >> right.

so surveillance is always going to be overinclusive, there are hundreds if not thousands depending on the joint terrorism task force where there is a hint and you start the information with less than an affidavit or excuse me an indictment. but what we don't know from the affidavit right now is what pieces of information they had that would have led them to really focus on rahim with 24/7 surveillance. because as bob and i have both been say, it is rare it is high resource you are taking people away from other investigations and so they were very worried as they should be about the imminency of an attack that might have only had one victim but would have amplified throughout the country. >> and bob we've seen attempted attacks on police officers in new york city several in the last couple of months several just disturbed individuals and some may have been more than that. do you believe this kind of an

attack in the united states is inevitable? >> anderson i do think it is inevitable. you have to look at the conflict in the police chiefmiddle east it is getting worst every day. the sunni community in general is under siege. and you find these lone wolves that may not have direct contact with the islamic state but they feel threatened and it is an existential threat for them and way they strike out in using in this case this precise violence against police officers or pamela geller. and i think we're seeing more and more of this every day and i think it is inevitable that one of the guys will stay off the radar and not text and manage to hurt somebody. >> bob baer julia chyme, i appreciate you being on. set your dvr to watch ac360 new

time. >> and the duggars, they speak out when they find out how they learn their son molested his sisters. how many times he did this and how many times he confessed. how many children he may have molested and how very very young one of his alleged victims is. later, the best look at the police theory of what happened before this washington, d.c. home was torched with the four murder victims inside. what newly filed court records reveal when we continue.

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we have a big dose of new information in the josh duggar molestation story. none of it is pretty. some of it utterly sickening. all of it raising questions. a new police report in washington county. he told his father about sexual abusing four of his sisters. one of whom was just five years old. today his parents smoke with meggin kelly. >> with just grief in our heart. we felt such failures. here we try to raise hur children to do and know what is right and one of our children

made some really bad choices and as a parent we were devastated. >> well devastated as they were they didn't take the steps you are supposed to to deal with their son and hale -- heal their daughters or to answer to the criminal justice. two guests haven't something to say but first randi kaye with the new and troubling details. >>ond three separate occasions josh duggar admitted to what he had done. according to in touch magazine. >> joshua was crying and his dad brought him in and he was there with the church eldir. >> this is the police report from washington county arkansas where the duggars live. domgts reveal josh was 15 years old in march of 2003 when he molested his five-year-old sister. and it didn't just happen once. police say he touched her breasts and vaginal area while

reading her a book on his lap. another type the police report said he put his hand up her skirt in the landry room. >> one of the sisters remembers the blanket being removed and she went to her father and said something about it. >> and it wasn't just his five-year-old sister he victimized. the police report said he admitted back in 2003 and 2002 to molesting four of his sisters and a family friend. jim bob told police that in march of 2002 he said he was sneaking in his sister's room at night and touching his sisters on the breast and vaginal areas while they were sleeping. in all josh is involved in seven instances of sexual molestation and his parents sat on the information instead of reporting it to police. in fact despite josh duggar telling his parents what he had done the police report said the

duggars weighted 16 months before reporting his behavior to authorities. 16 months. what is still unclear is whether or not josh duggar or his sisters got professional help after the abuse occurred. jim bob said his son was sent to treatment to get help but michelle said he had just been sent to a family friend. eventually the duggars did send josh to get counseling from state trooper joseph hutchins who now happens to be serving 56 years in prison for child porn. he told in touch from jail that jim bob had told him about just one case of sexual abuse. the new police report said josh admitted to the trooper what he had done. meanwhile, by the time 2006 rolled around and police started investigating the allegations, the statute of limitations had run out. randi kaye cnn, new york.

>> so all he got was a stern talking to from a new convicted child pornographier. and his parents waiting a year and a half before notifying authorities. and the fact that no one may face charges. and so dr. drew the fact that josh dugger confessed on three separate occasions to his father to multiple acts of molestation and confessing and doing it again and the duggars waited 16 months before contacting authorities, i got to say, it's unbelievable. >> it is unbelievable. and you saw in the footage there it is very difficult for a parent to come to terms with this. of course it is painful and you feel like a failure and that is when you run to professional help to get this taken care of to mitigate the damages. >> and also to protect your other children. >> to protect the children and the children that may have been traumatized by the experience so

far. let's remind ourselves, in the police report is only what has been admitted to. we don't know what went on since or before what was admitted to and there may have been other victims involved and by the way, all the while the poor victims are being required to stay and live with the perpetrator and being told if they feel bad or ashamed or uncomfortable or have feelings they don't know how to handle it is fine because god is in control because the perpetrator has had a stern talking to which will do absolutely nothing. >> a stern talking to and some construction work with a family friend areeva. what is not in this report is anything about any counselling that the victims in this -- i mean children were given. because it sounds like all of the focus is on -- gosh the mistakes poor joshua duggar made and nothing about his sisters, as young as 5 years old and as family friend. >> that is correct, anderson.

and as i sit here and watch the parents recount, they use these words, josh made some poor choices. and i was talking with you about this last week and it is insulting to keep talking about this as if they are not crimes. what josh did was a crime under arkansas law. what the patients did by failing to prevent the abuse and failing to report it to police is also a crime. so when we talk about the statute of limitations running there are two statutes involved the statute that governs josh and the patient parent -- parents. and they let both of those run. and now neither the parents or josh can be prosecuted. but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact there still needs to be an investigation that maybe there will be more victims that will come forward and maybe the statute can be told because there are exceptions under the law for those victims.

>> doctor i have to say, if you were sexual abusing a five-year-old child while the child is asleep or sitting on your lap or however it was done i believe while sitting on his lap, if you were sneaking into your sister's rooms repeatedly and molesting them that doesn't go away does it? >> no. >> that is the kind of behavior -- >> no. >> it is not just that is a bad choice. >> it is not a choice. it is a behavior that results from something very serious that requires very serious treatment. and you were just showing footage alongside of the images where there are young children sitting in his lap. it really made me upset to see the images. who knows what else has happened since then. and i'll tell you what anderson as i read the police report you could see the department of social services gearing up to intervene on behalf of the children and the duggars got in the way of that and the children never -- social

services never got a chance to do their job and so these poor victims have never had anything done for them. this is serious mental health problems this is not about choices or religion this is mental health disorder. >> and this is crimes. and i want to play the sound bite just for our viewers. >> just so much grief in our hearts. i think as patients we thought we're failures. here we tried to raise our kids to do what is right, to know what is right and yet one of our children made some really bad choices. and i think as a parent we were just devastated. >> the other thing -- i don't believe that if that mom was looking at some other family where a teenage boy molested his sisters and a family friend pooe petedly and molested a five-year-old child that she would term it as that young man

made a bad choice. she would be saying throw the book at that person. but it is a different standard of justice when you are wealthy and famous. >> and to be fair anderson as a parent it is terribly hard -- >> but i'm sorry, you can't be a good parent if you had 19 kids -- >> i'm with you on that. >> if you can give 19 kids the parental attention that they need. >> i could not. >> and i just don't know if i think they're being great or good parents even because all i hear in the whole story is about what they were doing to raise their kids and about josh. we haven't heard anything about help for the victims or justice for the victims and in a typical case like this if the department of children services like this they are going to take the kid out of that home. he should not be in that home and allowed to remain around those children the family friends coming over to that

house, everyone was in danger around this one man. >> arriba what about the parents of the family friends so to speak? where are they in all of this? >> oh, my god, that family -- >> the other church members and the other pastors who had this information and chose not to go to authorities. in the police report. >> who are mandatory reporters, clergymen are mandatory reporters and they had a legal obligation to report what was told to them by the duggar family about the molestation and they didn't do it. they were failed by the church the system the state trooper who didn't investigate this matter and gave josh this stern talking to. that is not his job. they need to turn this over to the district attorney. >> we have to leave it there. the new investigation into the d.c. mansion and how they got into the home and now

attention being paid to the assistant that was called to bring money to the home. food that's not good for you. ♪ ♪ [music] ♪ jackie's heart attack didn't come with a warning. today her doctor has her on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen.

evidence of a break-in new details about a sequence of the crime, the name of a person of increasing interest to authorities, all emerging in the investigation into the murders of savopoulos his wife amy, their son philip and her housekeeper, held captive and killed in their home in an up scale district neighborhood. we got a look at newly filed documents. >> in newly released court records police seemed to lay out how they believe the fire began. with the break-in of the savopoulos home. whoever held the family and the housekeeper hostage before shaking them down for money may not have been invited in. side doors on the house can, quote, a single broken window pane and a shoe or boot print is visible, suggesting forced entry. tonight police are still holding

34-year-old darron wint who was arrested while apparently on the run. in addition to his dna found on a pizza crust, they found blood of one of the victims on a shoe. he is the lone suspect but they believe he had help, i'm sure the police although they are tight lipped have some other suspected involved that they believe are involved in this case and they are trying to track information down to link them to wint and that is why it is probably taking some time. >> court documents suggest investigators continue to be investigated in savopoulos' assistant who allegedly dropped off $40,000 in cash to the home in hours before the fire. tonight that man is identified as jordan wallace who was hired as a driver for mr. savopoulos. police say after wallace changed details of his story surrounding the dropoff of the money they got a court order to retrieve

his telephone records. >> and joe joins us with more. and they are focusing on the cell phones of the families. why is that? >> right, anderson. the cell phones of mr. and mrs. savopoulos and the housekeeper were not recovered after the fire. they would like to determine where and when the phones were used if they were stolen by the killers. they want to get call and cell tower locations and other clues to lead them to clues and call logs and e-mail data and you name it. there are 18 different kinds of information they can get from cell tar telephones after they get a court order. >> appreciate the new information. new video of looters in action in baltimore pharmacies in april. the police commissioner said it is spurring a crime rage but they can't get police to look at these video. and another baby has died at the open heart hospital that it

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tonight baltimore police

commissioner anthony at-bats is linking the recent surge in crime to the april riots after freddie gray funeral. 15 pharmacies were loots. >> there is enough narcotics on the streets of baltimore to keep it intoxicated for a year. that has thrown off the balance on the streets of baltimore. you are seeing the repercussions in the crimes throughout the community. individuals are getting high to a greater degree and at a greater pace than at any time before. criminals are selling those stolen drugs. there are turf wars happening which are leading to violence and shootings in our city. >> he said there is enough narcotics on the streets of baltimore to keep it intoxicated for a year. that is quite a statement. and the baltimore sun shows looters in action at some of the pharmacies. you can see them in plain sight grabbing drugs off of shelves and at one point they pead off

with a 300 pound safe filled with oxycodone and for man a month later pharmacy owners tell the baltimore sun that police are ignoring their requests to report the missing drugs and have yet to watch the surveillance videos. and joining me is mark penny and van jones and harry houck. so have the police given you any response that they haven't responded to the reported missing drugs and the videos. >> well we asked them last friday if they've seen the videos and they said no. and the drug enforcement said there are a certain amount of pharmacy they haven't went to and they were backed up and they would get to. and they've increased the number to 27 as they did today. and the pharmacy owners were concerned because of the violence and they know other drugs are missing and people are finding drugs on the streets

with their names on the bags. >> and do you believe or -- how much of this rise in crime do you think is actually fueled by the drugs? can run really make a linkage? >> well that would be speculation on my part. we're going by what the police commissioner said last week and the gangs had a plan to do this and had a calculated move and the homicide is the highest the city has since seen the early '70s and so the amount of drugs on the street and it does make sense. >> harry, the spike in crime, the president of the baltimore police union said it is at least in part because of the police in baltimore are quote, more afraid of going to jail for doing their jobs properly than they are of getting shot on duty. do you believe trepidation among the rank and file could be partly behind the rise in crime? >> i'm sure it could be partly behind the rise in crime. but i can't dispute chief bats

and what he is saying. and so the ones i'm talking to are holding back and they are afraid and saw what happened to the officers in baltimore and they are afraid of if they act proactively and stop a drug dealer on the corner and he resist add rests and something bad happens and then they are going to jail. >> and van. some look at the spike in crimes in baltimore and the shootings in new york and st. louis and the protesters saying they've created an at that is -- an atmosphere that is hostile to police and do you believe that? >> i don't. i don't understand why the black community has to choose between police abuse on one side and neglect on the other side and i don't understand why that is so hard to get. i think we should point out there is a new reality for law enforcement.

people who have the cell phones they are recording things. it will take a while for law enforcement to get used to that and for the community to understand because something doesn't look right to you on a video camera doesn't mean it is unlawful. so we are in a new period. we are in a new moment. it is shocking to hear that you have law enforcement officers who are stepping back because they are going to look bad on camera. >> they are doing their job. >> the vast majority of law enforcement will do whatever it takes to keep our community safe and stop insulting law enforcement that they won't do their job because of a cell phone. >> they are backing their government by the city they are working in. and there are two ways to reduce crime in a city. not only being reactive but by being proactive. if a police officer doesn't feel being proactive is conducive to doing his job or going to jail you might have some police officers holding back a little bit there.

>> mark -- >> go ahead, van. >> i don't understand why you're saying that. you only -- at this point this whole wave of protests we've had now for almost a year not one police officer has been sentenced so prison. you had a few arrested because somebody wound up dead in their custody. i think that is a good thing. one was arrested because i shot a man in the back running away and none of the officers have been sentenced to prison. >> come on. they haven't gone to trial yet, van. that is why they haven't gone to prison. >> we have a tiny handful of officers that have been arrested. >> you don't think you are feeding into this by what you are saying. they haven't gone to prison. they have to go to trial and be found guilty or not guilty. i don't think you are helping by making those kind of remarks. >> and mark in the baltimore sun, they said they don't believe it is unreasonable to ask questions about leadership in a city having this kind of spike in crime.

does this come down to leadership and policy? what do you think is going on here? >> well that is not for me to speak on the editorial but our commissioners calling for the commissioner to sign if you call what he said during the freddie gray unrest he said he is not going anywhere he is a reformer and he's fired 50 people, the union has tension with the police commissioner and the union today said they are making requests for the communication between the top leaders to find out what happened during the unrest and caused it and the commissioner is asking an outside group to conduct the investigation and there is tension in baltimore no matter what group is there. >> yes. you're right. thank you. and any hospital that continues to perform open heart surgery on babies even after the surgeons do not have enough experience to perform them safely. another baby has died. we're keeping them honest.

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tonight, disturbing development in a keeping them honest report that we brought to you two nights ago. a florida hospital doing open heart surgery without enough experience to do it safely. between 2011 and 2013 the death rate for open heart surgery on

babies was more than three times the national average, according to our calculations. but yet st. mary's has kept the death from parents from children whose are facing surgery. a team of outside reviewers has recommended the hospital stop doing complex heart surgeries on babies and they haven't stopped and we've learned another baby has died. >> baby ricardo brandu born march 3rd, he died on thursday. portuguese for morning. he was born with a serious heart defect. instead of having two main blood vessels coming out of his heart, davie had only one. nationally 90% of babies survive the surgery to correct this

defeat. davie's surgery if march didn't go as well as expected so he had a second surgery later that month. in april st. mary's told us the patient is recovering well and the prognosis is good. it is not known why davie died. we do know this. last year an expert panel sent in by the state of florida reviewed the program. the head of the team advised them to stop doing surgery on babies like davie under six months old. but they said it was just a recommendation not a mandate. davie is the ninth baby to die since the program started in the end of 2011. amelia died after heart surgery. her mother heard the news about davie today. >> i feel horrible. i feel saddened. i feel disgusted. >> she thinked st. marys is

doing the lucrative surgeries for the money and wants them to stop. >> how are you justifying them in your mind? find something else to do. you're not good at this. >> using data st. mary's submitted to the state of florida, cnn calculated from 2011 through 2013 the programs mortality rate for open heart surgeries was 12.5% for pediatrics, three times higher than the national average. safety experts said they do too few pediatric heart surgeries, not doing enough to get good at them. they did 27 in 2012, 20 in 2013 and just 18 last year. >> these volumes are quite low. practice makes perfect, or at least makes it better. >> st. mary's disputes the high mortality rate but refuses what it provides the correct death rate. in a letter to employees

tuesday, car bone said over the last year the mortality rate is connistent with the national average and does not exceed the mortality rate of other programs as the cnn story alleges but the hospital declined to support any other claim and leaves parents like thesin fury ated and grieving their their own babies and for the most recent baby that never left the medical center following surgeries. >> elizabeth cohen joins us now. what is the state of florida doing about this. >> we reached out to the state of florida and the experts said these are low volumes. they said we don't regular the number of surgeries done in the hospitals and we continue to monitor st. mary's and make sure it is following the law. parents said this isn't the matter of following the law, are they competent to do the surgeries and the parents are overwhelming by this. >> and how were they responded

by the ceo's letter. >> the day that davie died they issue a letter saying we support the program and stand by our doctor the ceo letter. that didn't seem to be the right tone on the day that a baby died. >> in your initial report you point out the financial incentive that a hospital has to do these surgeries. they can make as much as half a million dollars per surgery. >> for certain surgeries. heart surgeries reimburse very very well. they are high-tech, a lot of equipment and people. and the parents say, look we think they're doing this for the money. these are lucrative surgeries. >> elizabeth cohen. appreciate the update. thank you. something to make you smile at the end of a long day. the ridiculist is next. nity. very similar to a range rover. this is pretty high tech. yeah it is. it reminds me of a mercedes. ♪ this is chevy? laughing i have a new appreciation for chevy. they thought about me.

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time now for the ridiculist. and tonight we're adding drunk people -- drunk people who --

drunk people who chase after bears with -- oh, shoot. all right. thank you. thank you very much. all right. wow! okay. wow! thank you very much. okay. all right. thank you very much. we don't want to start a fire now. >> the saddest honking i've ever heard. thank you. oh that smells beautiful. wow! it smells like the northern woods. we have a guest on the phone. who is joining us on the phone. >> coops. >> it is andy cohen and kelly

ripa. >> kelly and i figured this is the only way we'd get on cnn. >> i doubt that. there will be a scandal some day. thank you for calling in. >> do you remember it seems like yesterday that i made a birthday video for your 40th. that was about 15 or 20 years ago. >> yes. it was 20 years ago. i'm 60 today. >> do you remember when i sang to you. >> yes. >> and andy cohen, it was your birthday just yesterday. >> it was. and kelly and i know how much you love being celebrated for your birthday and made a big deal out of it so we really wanted to call in. >> thank you so much. i love my birthday. you guys can't see it right now. i was given a cake and say lot of mott's apple sauce to go which is my new favorite snack. >> i think you should come over to my place after the show and

meet kelly and i. >> that is a good idea. >> okay. >> are you eating baby food? >> i am. it is baby food. it is glorified baby food but they sell it in gyms so it makes adults feel it is okay. >> and kelly, we should point out, it was your son pike'll's birthday yesterday. >> that is right. andy and michael has the same birthday and you are born just 24 short hours later so. i feel like i have a lot of geminis in my life and i love it. double the friendship for half the price. >> that is true. aubd never know which one of us will show up. which two sides of the gemini tonight. >> we're hoping the fun one tonight. >> thank you for calling in i appreciate it. >> all right. put on your party shoes. see you later. >> i don't know what party shoes would look like. what happens when you put a balloon in a flame? that is what happens.

and it blew out the candles. happy birthday. thank you very much everybody. that does it for us. we'll see you again at 11:00 p.m. eastern. anthony bourdain. parts unknown starts right now. and vacation over as we headed home to our regular beds, our daily lives of school and homework, and ordinary things. maybe my little brother, maybe i, would wake up and look out the window at the night sky and suddenly it would fill with stars and golden mist, and we'd pretend for a second we were somehow deep inside the milky