i'm convinced when the tide has come and washed all the greed heads away we'll once again be magic. i hope i'm there to see it. ♪ ♪ >> this is cnn breaking news. and the breaking news is the duggars finally speak out. >> he said he was just curious about girls and he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes while they were sleeping. >> well we watched it all so you don't have to. i want you to listen to what jim bob and michelle duggar told fox news. >> josh has done some very bad things and he's very sorry. >> but what about what they

didn't say? can they save their show and their finally. plus caitlyn jenner. put it this way, i'm the new normal. >> is he with a 500 million dollar jack pot on the line. and therapists debate whether she did the right thing. and joining me now is michelle turner and cnn senior media correspondent. how do you think the duggar fans will react to this? >> for some fans this is going to sound like a really significant apology but for others minimizing something horrific. what we heard was that four of the victims were josh duggars' sisters. it's hard to even say out loud. they said some of the touching was above the clothes and some

not. they continue to emphasize this is not rape by jim bob. this is going to sound like they're trying to down play the significance. >> michelle. >> it certainly came across that way to me watching this tonight, don. there were a lot of things concerning me. i thought jim bob started off with some pretty strict talking points and continued throughout but some of the things he said like this is not like it's rape or anything, that was very concerning. and he touched them while they were sleeping and over their clothes. well that doesn't make it better and it makes it even creepier if you're fondling people while they're sleeping and to try to make excuses that they didn't even know it was going on. and i will say hearing some of the steps that they did take i did think were appropriate,

although they were far removed pm but they did some of the things. and if we're being fair it is a very tough thing for them to v to deal with when you're talking about your children. two sides of your children. >> let's talk about some of the safeguards they put in place. >> when you put to bed at night during that time frame, were you scared? were you worried? he's 14 he's having this problem. what's going to happen when we go to sleep? >> nothing ever happened like that again in the girl's bedrooms. but there was another incident where -- two different incidents where girls were laying on the couch and he had touched over the couch and actually touched the breast while they were sleep. over the clothes. and so it was a very difficult situation but as we talked to

other parents and different ones since then a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families. >> michelle what's your reaction? >> first of all, i just say over and over again in my head deflect, deflect, deflect and that's what i felt was going on a lot when he was talking and to bring up the fact that other people say the same thing goes on in their homes. what? i do think there was a healthy dose of denial in this interview. and i came away very confused and with a lot more questions than i did answers about the time line and how many people and how many girls there were because i kept hearing different numbers. and it was very doneconfusing and disappointing. because i feel like when people sit down for a no holds bar tell all, i want them to be contrite.

when i hear we were wronged, i have a hard time wrapping my brain around that. >> we are getting important perspective. we barely heard from the parents. at least, finally, we are hearing from them. that is valuable. the time they were most emotional was when they were talking about the illegal release the juvenile records and that means this could go on for months or years. but they did seem more bothered in some ways and -- they did say they would become advocates but not so much on the molestation. >> listen. >> it feel at all like a sophy's choice i have to protect my daughters at the expense of my

son or vice versa? >> i think it's a situation where we felt like our son's heart it gone astray. i think jesus shared a story where he had 100 sheep and one who went away and he went after the one who went astray. we're going to protect those that are in our hands but also we're going to make sure that josh doesn't make any wrong choices. >> doesn't mean that you're not a good shepherd. jesus was a good shepherd but he went after that one that went astray. so as parents, we were trying to do the best thing we knew how to help this one and protect these and i feel like through that as we came to that point where josh shared -- you know improperly touching the young

one, we were devastated and we said we've got to send him out of the home. he's got to go. >> let's talk more now. i i know erin marron was abused at age 6 and went on to found erin's law and they have a program to prevent sexual abuse and author of "an unimaginable act" and he met them last year and work would them. and author of "sibling abuse trauma." so you heard about the safeguards put in place and other people told me this happened in their homes. what do you make of that? >> i would say from listening to it first and foremost any parent listening to this if this ever happens, you remove

the child from your home immediately. i don't care how much therapy you get, if they're going to a juvenile home for a year if this happens in a home and they're a juvenile you remove them immediately. you can't take that risk. there is a risk there. and that's what we can all learn from what happened with the d duggars. remove them from the home. find another place for them to be. >> you were upset about this new police report. why is that? >> i just think it's outrageous. why did this police department have to disclose this? what was the motivation? you know, this was a juvenile record. yes, he committed a crime but what we're doing to these girls all over again, revictimizing them it's outrageous and honestly they should be held accountable for what they did. what this police department did was unacceptable. >> do you agree that's more

important than what happened to the family? the release of the information? >> it's difficult to make a distinction between the two but i do agree that the victims needs are very paramount and we haven't heard as much about them as we have about josh and the family. >> they stressed that josh made a bad choice. is it a behavior or a crime? >> i view it as a psychologist as a behavior. but one that's contingeant, as many behaviors on environmental and internal factors. we don't know nearly as much about the offender as we like but the environment that he was raised in the family was a key determinant as to how this happened and allowed to happen over time. >> let's hear more. >> the little one was like

what's wrong? why is daddy and josh leaving? and as we're all leaving the next day and for days and days i was saying you know josh has done some very bad things and he's very sorry. >> i was thankful and the ray of hope was that josh had came and told us and his heart is still soft because we wouldn't have known about any of these things if he didn't tell us. and none of the victims knew about this or understood what he had done. >> as a parent did you feel guilty when you learned that his behavior had continued and others girls in the house had become victims? >> yes. as parents, you feel like a failure when one of your parents does something wrong. >> erin the victims didn't know? >> according to them they said

they were asleep and i personally from my own experience both times when i was abused it happened while i was sleeping but i woke up. so i don't know -- i wasn't there. i don't know how this happened but i woke up and obviously he's saying he went to his parents and told but i would describe that behavior of what he did as grooming. it's a grooming process predators use when they sexually abuse someone. it's a process they use to get away with it. he obviously told his parents but other predators will do it to see how far they can go before they get caught. >> do you believe the victims didn't know? >> if it was happening over the course of months or years, at some point the victims knew it was happening. as your guest is saying victims often times can pretend to be asleep as a way to protect the

offender and the family environment from this horrible event but that's not necessarily a good indicator either. children who pretend something isn't happening when it is often suffer dire consequences from that behavior. >> every doctor i've had on have said that behavior is learned behavior. he lives in a very suppressed environment sexually. where would he learn those behaviors from? >> you're talking about josh? >> yes. >> yeah. well it's an interesting question. the evidence is pretty clear on this point that the earlier the offender becomes known, the more likely it is that they were tromtds themtrom traumatized themselves. that would be the key question i

would have v if there was previous molestation. and he was 14 that doesn't necessarily mean that's when it first began. that may be when he first confessed to the event. but that suggests there might indeed be history of tromatization in the boy's life. >> i know this has been personal to you in a sense because you have been speaking to michelle. you care to share any of your conversation or how she's doing or what she has shared you or you have share would her? >> i just share would her, so many people are throwing stones at this family and being a survivor many would think i'd want to throw stones at them to. it's not my place to judge them and i've been encouraging her, michelle what can you do now from this situation? what can you learn and do something good out of it?

how can you educate others? and i know in the interview, she brought up erin's law and how she's trying to help me get it introduced in other states. and obviously that was edited out. and i encouraged her to use doo something good out of this negative event. not going to the authorities immediately, allowing they are son back into the home but i ask parents, put yourself in their shoes. how would you handle this? we prepare for stranger danger to hurt our kids not someone we love and trust. and look at the ped file the police officer was with pornography. these people are people we know and trust. 97% of the time. not that stranger danger we warn so much about.

parents need to sit down and talk to their kids about purses personal body safety. you tell somebody you will be believed. >> and thank you for sharing that with us. i absolutely agree. but if it happens in your family how much can you trust what the duggar family is saying. what might have happened if there had been no statute of limitation in this case. and caitlyn jenner says she's finally living an authentic life.

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we're continuing on with our breaking news tonight. and i'm joined now by attorney and victims rights advocate lisa bloom, and also with me cnn correspondent and criminal defense attorney and i appreciate all of you joining me. i want to listen to part of the interview and then get your reaction. this is about when josh came back into the home let's listen. >> when you heard that behavior

had resumed, describe what that was like for you? >> we thought at first that josh you know was on the road to mend at first but he was still a kid and still a juvenile. he wasn't an adult. and so there was a couple more times that he came and told us what he done and we were devastated and again, this was not rape or anything like that. this was touching somebody over their clothes. there were a couple of incidents where he touched them under their clothes but it was a few seconds and he came to us and was crying and told us what happened. >> he keeps saying over the clothes or whatever. that's still molestation. >> and what was sad to me was how woefully ignorant they are about child sexual abuse.

it is not minimized if it's only a few seconds, if it's over the clothes, if a victim is sleeping. the whole interview seemed to focus on what they were feeling and how hard this was for them and of course i'm sure it was hard for them and where is josh duggar? he has children sitting on his lap, which they say would not be allowed in their home. why wasn't josh duggar doing this interview? >> i've tried to ask that question actually to the duggar pr people. they've had no comment. two of the sisters did speak with meagan kelly -- >> we'll hear from them. play it. >> reporter: did you ever worry that the treatment didn't work especially with so many young children in the house? >> no no.

josh was a changed person and -- >> and we still had those safeguards in place. there were a lot of things that changed in our understanding as parents with this first child, first son to come to this place in his life we're like there's things that we've learned even since then that i think -- we don't let boys baby sit, they don't play hide and seek together. two don't go off and hide. there's a lot of things that we put in place. you're not alone in the room with someone else. always be out visible and little ones don't sit on big boys laps or people you don't know or even family members unless it's your daddy. so there's boundaries that we've -- >> so, it's more about boundaries and what they learned. he's a changed person. how do you know someone is

changed? how do they know he's changed? >> we can't determine that without getting information having to do with the sexual molest acts. for example, whether or not he's actually got an a history of being traumatized himself, what kind of treatment did he have. was he treated by someone who experrertise in working with sibling sexual abuse? one of the primary things that hasn't been talked about is that in cases of sibling sexual abuse, there's often lack of supervision and even neglect. so who was supervising josh we had he had access to them? >> we need to know about whether

the parents were supervising or monitoring his behavior. >> what are you learning about this police report? >> well this is a new police report. as meagan kelly noted in the fox broadcast. this was all blown right open by "in touch weekly" and now they've contained a new police report. and this was very widespread. there were at least seven or eight incidents to which josh confessed to his father. he told his father repeatedly about some of these things. i want to give you one example of what jim bob told the authority authorities. this is 2006. the quote says "james said that josh was reading to his 5-year-old sister and as she was sitting on his lap, he had touched her breasts and private area" the report goes on to say that james also said during this

time frame, his daughter had been standing in the laundry room and josh had put his hand under her dress. the bottom line is these were horrible things that were going on and now we're getting better insight into our pervasive and disturbing this was. >> and i want you to listen to the daughters. here they are. >> they can't do this to us. we're victims. >> and yet they did. >> and they did. >> the system that was set up to protect kids both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life and the ones that are effected by those choices. it's greatly failed. >> so janet, they're talking about the information in the police report being leaked out, the whole reason we're doing this story and they say they're looking into their legal options. what do you make of that?

>> as a defense attorney it's always good to hear people come around and be concerned about the rights of victims and juveniles. but it's kind of burying the lead though in this story. because i actually disagree that there was a statute of limitations that it had already run. since they were minors they were still within the statute. it's hard to get incensed about that when they missed an opportunity to prosecute somebody who we just talked about, he has three and expecting four children. is that a concern today? is the doctor concerned that this is someone who now has little children at home and he's not had psycho sexual treatment, which i think is required in this situation. >> it's clear the family wants this to be about the release of records. and michelle duggar at one point said they've been more victimized by what happened in the last two weeks than what

happened years ago. >> what do you make of janet's question, should ehe be in the home with his children and should we be sure he has had treatment for this? >> we definitely should be sure if he's had treatment and we also need to know something more about the circumstances around even his parenting with his children now currently. there's again a lot of evidence that suggest if this abuse is education. and children tend to re-create that trauma in their own families. so we would be wise and prudent to know more about -- >> should something be done doctor to check on josh's kids? >> well certainly -- my own

view of this would be that we would want to take a look that entire family not just the children because those kind of dynamics tend to be re-created. so the entire family ought to be evaluated. >> i would say, absolutely yes and can we talk about the safeguards that michelle duggar put in place. no male baby sitters. hello, the threat was coming from inside the home. none of these incidents allegedly happened during hide and go seek. the safeguards that they put in place, the bottom line is did not work. a 5-year-old girl was molested after the parents knew about it and failed to remove the perpetrator from the home. and the safeguards simply did not address the problem. >> and you can be alone with daddy. daddy can be a perpetrator.

i mean, that's -- the science there is wrong. >> stick round. when we come right back, weal'll talk about can the show survive. okay guys, we've got two cars here. we're going to start watching a movie in the chevy malibu. ♪ (kids laughing) he's flying ok guys, pause the movie we're going to watch the rest in the toyota camry. hit play again ehhh. what happened? you can't watch the movie. ugh... no network connection. who wants to go back in the chevy malibu? me! let's go! peace out! chevrolet. the first and only car company to bring built-in 4g lte wi-fi to cars, trucks and crossovers. this is cool. yeah.

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we're back now with our breaking news. jim bob and michelle duggar speak out about the sexual molestation in their family. and what happens for the show? and we're going to go a little bit longer than we thought we were going to because it's such an interesting conversation. brian and michelle turner is back with us. i want you to listen to i thought there was a great question by meagan kelly, she said why would you even invite cameras into your home. >> reporter: okay. so it's all behind you for all intense and purposes and then 2008 you launched a reality tv show. what would make you launch a reality tv show about your family given this past?

>> you know back in -- back early on it was after all this was taken care of in 20003. we actually had a magazine that came to michelle and said can we do a story about your family and we said yes, that would be fine. >> reporter: but are you thinking at all, wait this might not be a good idea because when you bring camerainizes into your home they tend to discover things. >> we had nothing to hide and when they asked us to do the reality show, all of this had been taken care of five years ago. >> michelle, you have nothing to hide. we know when cameras -- that was a great question when cameras go into your home you should know better.

it invites things to come out. >> there's a lot of reality television stars who say if you have a skeletons in your closet don't go on tv because inevitably they came out. i was thinking to myself it's almost an easy answer to me because the bottom line a lot of times is the bottom line. i mean listen the duggars earn $40,000 an episode, they've been on for 10 seasons and could very well be on for an 11th. it's the most popular show on the network. and makes 10 billion dollars in admun add money. and you're thinking this is a sealed document in juvenile court, let's do it. >> they should be paid more, but that's another story. how can tlc continue this? >> they are very carefully

avoiding comment as they had been for yearweeks. we heard jim bob say i don't know if the rest of the family should be punished with what josh did. but the ultimate outcome could be a spin off but not the wider family. >> and there was a lot of denial. i mean i felt sorry in a way, because i felt they were in denial and maybe they're just that naive, i don't know. listen. >> reporter: when you heard that the behavior had resumed, describe what that was like for you. >> we thought, you know at first, that josh was on the road to mend but he was still a kid

and still a juvenile. he wasn't an adult and so there was a couple more times that he came and told us what he had done and we were just devastated and again, this was not rape or anything like that. this was like touching somebody over their clothes. there were a couple of incidents where he touched them under their clothes but it was a few seconds and he came to us and was crying and told us what happened. >> i mean janet, does he know this is not like rape or. >> and he's on the mend like he had a broken leg. i've represented kids who were accused of this and had to depose victims and meet with parents of victims and i have to think if one of the girls was offended by somebody outside of the family this is not the language you would be hearing. yeah they have juvenile justice

system where kids go to a facility for a year 1/2. they go to high level security facilities to get treatment and also to keep them away from the family. this isn't the conversation that i hear in court every day. >> doctor, do you want to weigh in on that? >> yes, i do and i want to suggestall also that this is aing a nizing event to have to choose between your children. as much as we're all in support of safety for the victims first and foremost it's also important to recognize that this family is probably struggling to make sense of this because it would be difficult for any set of parents to choose -- >> i'm sorry, i have to disagree with the sophy's choice thing. you have a responsibility as a

parent to protect the children. you take the predperator out of the home. he's not getting his head chopped off. it's not in his interest to reoffend. there are so many inconsistencies in the story. they said the kids are all asleep and then one of them was on his lap having a book red to her and another was a babysitter. and the problem is they completely believe josh duggar's account. they bleechbelieve the victims when they say they were asleep which is a common thing that victims say. and they made a choice to stay in the dark even after they knew that they had a predator in their home. >> doctor i'll let you respond after the break. does josh duggar have to speak out on this himself. we'll be right back. know xerox as the company that's

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we're back now with our breaking news tonight. jim balkob and michelle duggar

speak out about the scandal. and joining me now guests. and a psychootherapist and writer p. . >> thank you so much. let me first say that i'm not in disagreement with any of the comments that are made by holding the offender responsible but from a clinical point of view the tasks in helping this family heal are different than what the judicial systems to the do and in fact that's why these cases are so complex. the entire family while there was one offender in this case as far as we know and that's only as far as we know but nonetheless, the entire family most particularly the parents r responsible for maintaining this behavior. because it was obviously

disclosed and then continued on. my comment is that everybody in this family deserves compassion because they're going to have to go through a tough time dealing with denial on different levels and keeping the children safe. and there's one victim not in the family that we haven't heard from either. and without hearing their stories, we really only have anecdotal reports. >> the parents say they feel like failures. >> i think as parents, we felt we're failures. here we tried to raise our kids to do what's right and know what's right and yet one of our children made some really bad choices. and i think as a parent we were devastated. >> nel, what does this do to a family? >> i think it's obviously very dev stating for the family. the one thing that concerns me

is that in the last few years since they've been on television they've come out and on certain political issues having very conservative stances on things and what i've heard from my colleagues is that there was an element of self righteous righteousness that they portrayed in the family and now we see this side of them that they clearly hid which becomes very problematic from the family to heelal from. it sounds like they're down playing it to protect their repitation as a family. i think that part of the reason why they're doing this is to protect their children from mockery, but ultimately you know the parents need to come to terms with the truth and the

family yes, needs to heal from this together. >> but they live with this? they're going to live with the stigma of this. they're still having to be in the same family and deal with the person who perpetrated this molestation and abuse. 19 children in the family four abused and then there's josh. do you think that they all need to be in therapy? >> oh i mean yeah. yeah. >> you do? >> yeah. obviously, yeah. the thing is that the treatment for what the girls went through would be different from what the perpetrator went through and obviously, the ramifications keep going outward. so having therapy and faemmily and individual therapy. >> even for the kids not involved? >> yes, look at what they're going to have to face going forward publicly. and some of the children are

small, and how do they make sense of this. >> is michelle turner still with us? >> i'm here don. >> tell us about josh duggar because he has kids and doesn't he have one on the way? >> yeah three kids and one on the way. we did hear him speak often about very conservative views. he was taking a leadership role there and that's kind of what has him also in this situation is the fact that we heard him say -- sounding a bit self righteous on a lot of different issues and now we're seeing his past come back to haunt him. he doesn't have to but should he, absolutely and would we like for him to do that, yes and would i like him to do that on entertainment tonight, yes. >> and cnn tonight preferably.

because as a sursurvivor i would really like to talk to him and somebody in this family. >> and you know why that's important is because in 2002 to 2006 the family circled around to protect josh duggar and today in 2015 exactly the same thing is happening. the whole family is protecting josh duggar who is at the center o of this and has not come forward to talk even though he's a grown man. and accountability and justice, that's what is important fp. a little accountability goes a long way to protecting victims. >> i have faith but that is not therapy. god and religion is not therapy. you need professional therapy when dealing with this.

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daughters was awake but not aware. here it is. >> reporter: the subsequent sntz incidents involved daughters awake? >> there were a couple but they didn't really understand what happened. >> it was more of his intent and he knew it was wrong. but they weren't even aware. it was like it wasn't -- to them they probably didn't even understand it was improper touch. >> now let's hear from the daughters. >> they don't have a right to do this. they can't do this to us. >> reporter: and yet they did? >> they did. >> the system that was set up to protect kids both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life

and the ones effected by those choices, it's greatly failed. >> lisa should they be putting the daughters out there? >> that's up to the daughters but i would say from the bottom of my heart, i hope you hold your heads high the choices you make about your life are what is going to define you, not what the police did and certainly not what josh duggar did. >> i just a few seconds here. should the daughters be out there like that? >> i think there's always the risk of retromatization of the daughters and i would want to give them full freedom to decide on their own. >> john, lisa janet, elizelizabeth, thank you very much and to all

of my guests who joanined me

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sorry we didn't get to the jenner story. good night. good evening thanks for watching. we begin tonight with breaking news with a story that has not stopped providing evidence and a shooting outside a cvs pharmacy in a boston neighborhood. the authorities suspected he'd been adicalized by isis and then he was plotting to kill local police officers and today we learn that he intended to behead a activist and that is