in any way that could diminish her. >> how would you not realize. you are a stupid stupid man. >> richard roth cnn. >> she gets the last laugh, after all the ukulele story is darn cool. thanks so much for joining. ac360 starts now. >> good evening. thanks for joining us. a very full night tonight. starting with the suspect in the biggest computer break-in. hackers gaining access to confidential information as as many as 4 million americans which would be bad enough but it gets worse. the 4 million americans are current or former federal employees. we learned about it late today. and tonight we learned the prime suspect is not a nerd in a basement, but a superpower the people's republic of china. and so what new information with we learning? >> anderson i'm told the breach

is much much bigger than what the government has told us today. we're told every government agency has been breached by the hackers and there were two distinct attacks that occurred. this may affect millions more than the 4 million the office of personnel management announced today. again this is a much bigger deal than the government first let on. >> that is incredible. every agency of the government? >> virtually every government agency was breached by this as part of this ak that. and it was sophisticated enough this they used different signatures to throw off anybody that might have been looking. >> and how long was this going on for? >> they were no the system for months anderson and that is raising a major concern here. the department of homeland security made a big deal today of saying their einstein system was key in detecting this. however, i'm told by sources that really the office of personnel management detectived

it first and then the homeland security department came in and used the system called einstein to try to diagnose and see where else it was and they discovered it was spread much more broadly. here is the issue. the homeland security department is supposed to be doing diagnostic checks of government networks all over the place and they are clearly not doing it. and there is another problem with the einstein system and that is it doesn't detact when hackers change the signatures of the mal-ware they are use ug. so that makes it not that smart, certainly not any smarter than anything you can find at best buy, if it can't detect hackers changing the signatures of the attack. >> and that is why they weren't able to pick up on it for months because of the changed signatures. >> the different signatures and they didn't know what to detect. the einstein system needs to know what it is looking for and that is the big weakness in the system. >> thank you. someone who spent years for

years, shawn henry and running the security firm crowd strike services. why would the chinese be interested in this situation and what benefit does it give them. >> i've heard reports that it it is china. it might be early to tell. if it is china, it is not unusual for foreign services to collect information about u.s. government employees. often times what they look to do is to gather dossiers on employees to target them through physical attacks and by collecting all of this information it is having a giant data base they can tap into at any time. >> a data base of 4 million plus people, that is a huge ream of information to have. >> you are talking about government employees that work across all sorts of agencies. the department of energy the department of education, the department of commerce perhaps in the white house. so these are people who have sensitive information or access to information and if in fact

it is an intelligence service, it would be someone to target. >> if it is background or confidential information and it is potential weak points to make light of. >> that is exactly right. if you are looking to target someone through a human attack and someone wants to come after anderson cooper i can do it in a way to gain knowledge, maybe i know a college you went to and friends you are associated with and that will help me when approach you. >> and we heard china, attacks from iran from north korea, in russia as well. is it that the u.s. system is not all that advanced or is it just the nature of the beast and where we live? >> it is nature of the networks. they are so vast and geographically disbursed and difficult to protect and the reality is you can't prevent the attacks. you can learn to detect them quickly enough you can mitigate

the consequences. what happens oftentimes is the adversaries get into the networks and they are there for months and years undetected and they have the opportunity to really scarf up all sorts of data. >> that is incredible they can remain in a system for months and years without being detected. >> it is an incredible challenge. it is difficult to try to find them but if organizations deploy the right technology and have the right processes in place they are in a stronger position to detect them quickly. that is the way to get around the corner here. preventing them from getting in and of itself is not suitable because it won't happen. there are networks with hundreds of thousands of end points all of them are an in gress into the network. >> and if one has assume if they are doing this to us the u.s. is doing this to others as well. >> there is this issue of national security and organizations, agencies looking to collect intelligence. i think from a national security perspective, there is very well known what organizations or

intelligence services are doing against each other. what we're looking at oftentimes is commercial spooen -- espionage where foreign companies are providing it to their companies so they have a competitive advantage. >> appreciate you being on. >> thank you. >> and difficult and no less frightening stories and cyber recruitment by terrorist groups like killing police officers and like a blogger, like those killed on tuesday. ever since they are looking for possible links online to isis or isis supporters. and tonight as pamela brown reports, they may have found one skblfrnlt tonight cnn is learning isis played a more direct roll in the thwarted boston terror attack than first thought. one of the men connected to the plot to pamela geller and to kill police in massachusetts was being encouraged by known isis

terrorists communicating from overseas. boston police commissioner william evans was put under 24/7 surveillance within the past ten days. >> what made you go from this guy could be aspirational to operational. >> the language we were picking up. let's get a boy in blue and we couldn't let him out of our sight. when it looked like it was going operational, we stepped into action. >> and a law enforcement official told us he called to say goodbyes to his father and they were monitoring his e-mail and phone activity around the clock. law enforcement was fearful he would board a bus from knives he ordered from amazon last week and that is why they approached him outside of this cvs in boston. >> we didn't want to get him on a bus because he could have acted out on a bus but we knew

the urgency was there to get to him. >> rahim was heard on tap to attack law enforcement after abandoning plans to go to new york to behead geller. they met on a beach this sunday with a relative david wright to discuss the beheading plot. wright was arrested and appeared in court on wednesday and today law enforcement was still outside of a rhode island home of a third person part of the beach discussion. authorities questioned that person already but have not said who that is. >> you have him on the wire taps saying he wants to go after the boys in blue and go to new york and behead pamela geller. why wasn't he arrested before this? >> it might be hearsay or small talk. the urgency came to light on tuesday morning that this is real. when the knives got delivered and the talk of a vacation and which was code for a violent jihad. >> now for the first time

rahim's mother and family members through their attorney are denying nil knowledge of a connection between rahim and isis. >> the family had not perceived any conduct or change in demeanor with use auma consistent with those records. >> pamela brown joins us now. do we know if isis was involved in planning those alleged planned attacks. >> reporter: we know right now the fbi is combing through the men's electronics to try to figure out the extent of isis's involvement and how much it was involved in the planning and perhaps directing of the attack. what we've learned anderson from talking to u.s. officials is that this is more than aspirational here. this is more than the men looking at sirs propaganda. one of the men was in contact with isis terrorists communicating online from overseas and that is what is so concerning.

the militants were encouraging one of the men to launch an attack here in the u.s. it is unclear whether the isis militant overseas was encouraging a specific attack like in the complaint, the beheading of pamela geller in new york or more general. we are still waiting to learn this. but from talking to u.s. officials, they believe these men, in their minds, were acting on behalf of isis. as one official said this is the new normal. this is what we're facing right now. we saw it in garland, texas, with the attempted terrorist attack and now seeing it here in boston. >> coming up three mist earia shootings in the same part of colorado. people walking, riding driving their back and shot for in reason. there is worry that a serial shooter is doing that. and we have late comments from authorities on that. and looters caught on cameras looting in baltimore, and many of them identifyingable

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breaking news tonight out of colorado where two unexplained shootings have become three. three seemingly random victims and one vital question are they all victims of a single shooter.

tonight late word from investigators. angel cabrera brings us that after setting the scene, beginning with the latest shooting. >> reporter: another deadly shooting shocking colorado. >> it makes you stop and think. it just -- yeah it's scary. >> fears spreading about a possible syria shooter, perhaps a serial sniper on the loose. >> channel what might be fear into being productive. help us look. keep your eyes open. >> reporter: the latest victim 65-year-old william canold junior lying on a sidewalk and bleeding. authorities can't talking about the circumstances surrounding his death but say he was shot in the chest. and now looking into whether his death is linked to two other shootings in the past week in the same region. >> i'm mad there is somebody running around in the streets of our town and took somebody's life and thinks sher getting away with it.

>> this man was shot while riding his bike on a rural county road. cory romero was shot in the deck while riding on i-25. >> a car pulled up next to me and i thought they hit their car with my car and my window shattered and i noted i was bleeding and the police got there and noticed the bullet holes in my car. >> they thought they were random but now think their shootings are connected. >> we did recover evidence that links the shootings together. >> reporter: the fbi is investigating and a $10,000 reward is being offered and a new death bringing new urgency to find out who is pulling the trigger. >> and we are joined now from sentenial, colorado. what are police saying about this being a possible cereal sniper. >> reporter: they aren't going there and calling on the community to remain vigilant and

to report anything that might be connected to the recent shootings and vef learned there have been two dozen reports of people saying their car windows have shattered while driving and talked to the colorado state patrol about this because that is the agency compiling the reports. and i'm told there does not seem to be a trend. and the reports are coming from different locations and there is no evidence to prove or confirm that windows were shot it could be road debris but it reflects the heightened alert people are feeling around here given the recent shootings in northern colorado. >> appreciate the update. and in the wake of the looting and violence in baltimore, welcome to some believing that some have shy add way to the law ever since. this is a handful of photos put out this evening. looters with prescription drugs caught on camera and police now seeking these individuals and

others who tore through them and searching for narcotics and as you see there, stealing enough drugs said the police chief to keep the city high for a year and drive violent crime rates higher and people wonder why authorities did not seem to put a sharper focus or really any focus on catching the culprits. and now from miguel marquez who spoke with the looting victim. >> tonight, dramatic video, moments after the looting started here in baltimore, among the first targets, pharmacies like this one. this man who works here didn't want his face or name used. he said the assault on his pharmacy started before sunset. 3:00 p.m. care one pharmacy people still picking up prescriptions, looters rush in trying to smash security glass with a chair. hours later, they return this time entering through the rear of the store, stripping shelves of anything and everything. >> you called police after your store got looted.

how long did it take for them to come here? >> it took them more than a month. >> you have video tape of everybody who was in the store that night robbing the place. how police viewed that? >> no. >> reporter: despite the emphasis baltimore police are now putting on stolen pharmaceutical -- >> criminals are selling the stolen drugs. there are turf wars happening which are leading to violent and shootings in our city. >> what did you make of his press conference? >> to me it is a joke. it is a joke. >> reporter: this pharmacy employee said if police were truly worried about pharmaceutical drugs they should have responded sooner. in one location looters made off with a safe and one looter even left his cell phone behind it. was ringing all the next day. >> the phone was ringing the next day. >> the next morning, because this happened at night, the next morning that phone was buzzing.

the family called me to tell me that people were calling the phone. >> and this is a safe where the more controlled substances are kept and you can see where they tried to hack into it and they were not able to get into the safe despite how hard they tried. >> reporter: this is the video of looters trying their hardest to get into that very safe unable to carry this one away they left it behind. >> also left behind here a sense of security for everyone not just pharmacies but restaurants like great grand soul food struggled to keep the doors open and the lack of security doesn't make it any easier. >> i'm not sure if i've seen any increase in police presence. i'll actually seen more of an increase in violence. >> and miguel joins us from baltimore. have police given us any kind of reason why they haven't aggressively investigated the cases because the commissioner

has been making a big deal about the presence of the drugs on the streets. >> reporter: to come out like that and not say this is everything we've been doing and they are starting from zero it seems like from yesterday. we have asked repeatedly to any response the specific claims the pharmacy owners make and they haven't. they old said they are investigating across the board and they are involving the feds and that is why we see the pictures that we saw earlier and they say they will eventually catch the bad guys. anderson. >> just ahead, rick perry throws his hat into the primary race. and now the double-digits and the field getting bidder and does that help or hurt his bid for the white house. >> and the duggars facing now criticism over what they did and didn't do when if he found out their son was molesting his younger sisters and hitting back saying they are the victims in this whole mess. we'll show you what they said.

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today former texas governor rick perry announced his second run for the white house in a

hangar outside of dallas. navy s.e.a.l. littrell who he referred to as a second son and the author of the book lone survivor and that is his twin brother standing on the other side of the governor. and the stanley cup and the field was packed. and perry has jum upped into a crowded field and it is about to get even crowded. >> today i'm about to run for the president of the united states of america. >> and then there were ten. ten in the field for the white house. rick perry is running on experience as the longest serving governor in history, trying to make people forget about this last run. two won past iowa caucuses. rick santorum and former arkansas governor mike huckabee. >> i grew up blue-collar, not

blue blood. >> three want to be president, ted cruz -- >> imagine us saying in unison we demand our liberty. >> rand paul of kentucky. >> we need to boldly proclaim our vision for america. we need to go boldly forth under the bander of liberty that clutches the constitution in one hand and the bill of rights in the other. >> and florida's marko rubio. >> yesterday is over. >> and we're never going back. >> three term south carolina senator lindsey graham is running on his foreign policy creds. >> i have more experience with

our national security than any other candidate, and that includes you, hillary. >> george pataki served during 9/11. >> we will defend our freedom but not be the world's policeman. >> two have not held office. the surgeon, ben carson and carly fiorina. >> i know that flying is an activity not an accomplishment. >> and there are still more to come. jeb bush and louisiana governor bobby jindal will make their candidacies official later this month. chris christie and john kasich are also preparing presidential runs. >> assuming all of this jump in this will be the largest gop presidential field in four

decades. anderson. >> it is fascinating. let's dig deeper in thousand that is likely to shape the race. joining me gloria borger and jake tapper. it does seem like every republican politician right now wants to run for president. what does it say for the republican party and for the aspects of winning. >> it says the republican party has a deep bench. there are a lot of high-profile governors and senators who are going to run and if you look at the democratic side of the aisle you don't see that same kind of deep bench. and the reason i think we're seeing so many of them run because we've had eight years of a democratic president and if you look at historical trends we are probably going to have a republican president and not necessarily but that is the trend. and right now biden hasn't said he won't run and presidnt obama can't run for re-election and the odds are good that a republican will win. >> and as jake said, gloria

there are a lot of candidates on the republican side. it is not like 2012. >> in 2012 they called it the clown car and at this rate so far you would have to say that the republican bench looks very deep and very serious. you have three people who have run before for the presidency. you have a group of in couple bent senators you have governs and former governors. you have people who are actually talking about ideas because as jake points out, they've been out of power and this is what happens to a party when they don't have the white house for eight years, they develop a deep bench and they start thinking about that -- what they would do if they could get back in the white house and that is exactly what has occurred in the republican party. it is a very vibrant field out there. >> jake is it a good thing for the republican party because people will say for these candidates you get better as a candidate if you have competition.

hillary clinton at this point doesn't seem to have competition on the democratic side and that might not be a good thing for her. >> i agree with that assessment. if you look at the 2008 race, obama versus clinton, they made each other stronger tougher, candidates. i don't know if obama would have been strong in the fall against john mccain if hillary clinton had not been there fighting him every step of the way. >> and i wonder gloria you look at some of the candidates and you wonder do they think they have a shot at making the nomination or is it about staying relevant being able to get on the lecture circuit later on? >> it is sort of yes and you look around and say why not me. a lot of these folks getting in we just had george pataki getting in and forger governor of new york and they say why not me. and you have five candidates right now tied for first place with a huge number of 10% each.

if you were polling at 2% you could say well i'm within single-digits of the person who is in first place so why not do it. they think hillary clinton is beatable. this is good for them. good for their resume. why not get in and live off of free media and have some nice road trip as long the way. >> and jake for that you would have to stay in at least until the first primaries. >> i think that is right. until there is a reason and impetuous for your leaving. and that is not what happened with tim pawlenty. we saw him bow out after he lost in the iowa straw poll. it looks like a lot of the top tier candidates won't participate in a straw poll so we're not sure what the situation will be. and what gloria just said what mccain said he said the first six months saying how on earth did i get here and then saying

how on earth did the rest of these guys get here. and if i can do this job, i can do that one. >> thank you to you both. >> michelle and jim bob duggars speaking out about how they tried to deal with it in house as parents and how they think they are the targets of what they call an unprecedented attack. okay guys, we've got two cars here. we're going to start watching a movie in the chevy malibu. ♪ (kids laughing) he's flying ok guys, pause the movie

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the parents from 19 kids and counting have broken their silence about the molestation scandal involving their oldef son. in an interview with mig an kelly they confirmed their son josh molested four younger sisters. and during the interview the parents minimized josh's actions and its effect on the victims. here are a few of their reactions. >> 12 years ago we went through one of the darkest times that our family has ever gone through our son josh came to us on his own and he was crying and he had just turned 14 and he said that he had actually improperly

touched some of our daughters. and it was -- >> we were shocked. i mean we were just devastated. i don't think any patient is prepared for trauma like that. and i think we had one ray of hope in that josh had a tender conscious and he was the one that came and shared on his own even though the others really didn't know anything of his wrongdoing. >> did he explain why? was that a question that you asked. >> he said he was just curious about girls and he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes while they were sleeping. they didn't even know he had done it. this was not rape or anything. this was touching somebody over their clothes. there were a couple of incidents where he touched them under their clothes but it was just a few seconds and then he came to us and was crying and told us what happened and it was after that third time that he came to

us is where we really felt like you know what we had done everything we can as parents to handle this in house, we need to get help. >> the duggars said the media attention as the result of some agenda an unprecedented attack against their family and they wonder why the press isn't going against those who release juvenile records. in a scathing article for the daily beast it was written they dug themselves into a p.r. hole no amount of righteousness can get them out of. and he joins me along with dr. drew pinsky and our host from cnn. and what did you make of the interview, doctor,ba they seem to make themselves the interview and it was just above the clothes, except for the times when it wasn't and just fay a few -- for a few seconds and it

wasn't penetration, but how they would know that and it is just one thing after another. am i wrong here? >> no. anderson you are right. from the beginning they have been dealing with this and managing it by denying, minimizing rationalizing and making it a parental issue rather than a mental health issue and once they got help they went to the system they were locked into and schooling these children and where perfection is demanded all of the time and of course humans aren't perfect beings and they didn't get an evaluation for this child or his victims at any time. >> and jeff they keep saying, our daughters didn't know what happened they happened so fast they were asleep and they didn't feel it. i was stunned when they said this. >> they didn't know that. and the thing that i find soin fury ating about the situation is we talk about domestic violence whether it is sexual abuse or husband-wife as if it is something that families can manage and it is up to the

families to resolve it but sexual abuse and domestic violence is a crime against the state as well as against the victims. and the state has to be involved. state has an interest in protecting children. and when you don't report to the authorities something like this you are putting many children at risk. and by the way, there is another family involved here. one of these children was from a different family. >> on the couch. >> do they get any voice in this. this is why we bring in outsiders involved if at all possible to make some sort of neutral judgment about how to protect one of the victims. and the one part about this that is deeply sinister and we can't answer this is how much were they protecting josh and the children and how much were they protecting the tv careers. >> they have a financial stake in having a tv show and they still want to have a tv show after all of this and it is hard

to think that didn't weigh in their decision. >> and they did this tv interview to save this. and in the way and the skas piration and they did no favors by participating in their interview and they hurt their chances of a tv career. >> i want to play more of the interview. >> they've been victimized in the past couple of weeks than they were 12 years ago because honestly they didn't understand or know anything happened until after the fact when they were told about it. >> it is true when a five-year-old is being fondled by a 14-year-old brother when sitting on his lap she may not know what is going on but to say it is worse what is going on now than however many other girls were involved in this. >> it shows a total ignorance of sexual abuse and molestation and the ramifications of that on a

person's life and not talking about those issues in general but the fact they are victimizing themselves of how desperate they are going to to maintain their career and to ex pound on their values and extreme christianity and the sensitivity to their daughters. >> and in the interview, jim bob and michelle duggar they never use molestation or rape they call it improper touching. if you can't properly naming it are you even truly acknowledging what happened. we heard michelle duggar saying the girls didn't even know what was going on. >> i feel much deeper compassion for this family than you guys do. i think they all deserve an evaluation. this is a sick situation. i think the sinister situation is not the television but the organization that supports the moment school education and the

organization that evaluated them and said to keep out outside services and that they are perfect, perfect. >> and i don't believe other families and this family would give other families the benefit of the doubt. i don't believe this family and these parents -- >> i think you are right. >> to point to a poor disadvantaged family from a disadvantaged community and say that 14-year-old boy who raped his sister that 14-year-old boy who put his finger inside of his sister or multiple time with his sisters and did it over and over again, that was just a bad choice and shouldn't be in the -- >> which is just crazy talk all the way down. >> dr. drew and jeff stick around. and appreciate you being on the kevin fallon from the daily beast. there is more to talk about ahead. including how religion plays into this and if it does and when the duggars were asked how they would speak about family morals given the secret they were hiding.

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more now on michelle and jim bog duggars first tv interview since josh's allegationsle molestation. >> this isn't something we

wanted to come out but if people with see that josh who did these very bad things when he was a young person that god could forgive him for these terrible things that i hope other people realize that god can forgive them and also make them a new creature. >> the main charge we've heard from your critics has been they are hypocrites. >> they preached family values josh once said we are the epity so maniy of conservative values and yet they had this secret and they weren't honest with the world about who they were. >> i don't think you go up to total strangers and say hi my name is so and so and i want you to know what i did as a child and share your past. you know, every family has things happen in the family and some families have darker things than others but every family deals with things. >> what the critics are going for is you shouldn't have been

preaching about moral values when you had a secret like this in your own family. you should be calling other people sinners when you yourselves are sinners. >> our son violated god's principals of making -- doing some improper touching. that was terrible. but yet, i think, it has been recently said that what josh did was inexcusable but it was not unforgivable unforgivable. >> with me again are sn senior analyst, peter toobin and bruce filer who writes about religious and family issues author ever walking the bible and journey by land and the five books of moses. so bruce, what about the religious component to this. and there are people out there who believe the duggars who are using the shield and others who are being attacked for their religious beliefs. >> well they are making two

religious arguments. first they handled this with the religious community and they are being persecuted because they are religious. i think it is safe to say that many secular people feel they are under assault or seem by the religious people within the community but reason the religious community and the evangelical community there is that thought. >> and even after the so-called counseling he went to which was some construction work he did, they said not at all, that they moved on with life what do you make of that? because as we know if this is some sort of deeply felt thing, and we don't know what motivated josh duggar to do this time and time again to a five-year-old and to his sisters and a family friend sleeping over on a couch, but this isn't something that goes away if it is a deep-seated urge. >> right. it is total massive abject den

yil and it continues to be total massive abject denial. there is yet to be an assessment of whether or not this young person this young individual has a serious mental health issue. and we have two parents with zero training and understanding of what they are dealing with and declaring what it is and that is ridiculous. >> i want to play another clip from the interview. let's listen. >> he went and asked god to forgive him and he went back and asked those who he offended to forgive him and the last jurisdiction of who he needed to make things right with was the law. >> jeff is that the last jurisdiction to make things right with? >> i don't know exactly what he meant by that. but stepping back one things about this country you can believe whatever you want to about religion but you still have to follow the law. and we've discussed many times there are religions that believe in with holding medical treatment and the courts step in with children and say we don't care what you believe. the duggars can believe anything

they want but there are laws in this country about child abuse they have to follow like everyone else. >> what role if any, do you think the message that the duggars preach should have in all of this. should it play at all. clearly there are a lot of people that view them as hypocritical. i think that is a slippery slope in some ways. do you think that should play a role the fact that they -- that michelle duggar made robo-calls to caught other people potential child molesters? >> i wrote it doug. how can you say to your neighbor let me take the speck out of your eye while it is in your eye. these are the words of the new testament. this is a central text in christianity saying don't tell your neighbors what to do when you have your problem in your own community.

this is a log in the eye by any definition of the log in the eye. we feel this way about homosexuality or abortion or transgender and while having this secret is highly revolting. >> josh's sisters, i want to play a clip from that interview where they address how their experience became public. >> people don't have a right to do this. we're victims. they can't do this to us. >> and yet they did. >> they did. >> the system was set up to protect kids both of those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life and the ones that are affected by those choices, it is just -- it's greatly failed. >> the police report their named were redacted and no one in the mainstream had reported

who the actual girls were. they are now clearly coming forward in this interview. and it is interesting, they are saying they are victims and their mom doesn't seem to label them as such. their mom seems to discount again what happens to them and they don't remember it it was above the clothes except for the time it wasn't. >> they may have been indoctrinated to take this position as you say based on the mom's denial. but a common situation is when young people are exposed to their perpetrator, they begin to identify of the perpetrator. everybody is aware of the stockholm syndrome. and how much it is affecting them i don't know. but the identification of the victimizer is a concern here. >> and i appreciate you being on doctor and jeff toobin and drew too, thank you. more ahead. we'll be right back. we choose to carve our own path, in the pursuit of exhilaration.

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