♪ i heard you laugh and i heard you sing ♪ ♪ and i wouldn't change a single thing ♪ >> beau biden was 46 years old. i'm poppy harlow. see you back ear at 7:00. smerconish is next. i'm michael smerconish. welcome to the program. we begin with the latest developments in the scandal swirling around former house speaker dentist hastert. we now know there were at least three alleged victims.

cnn learning that the fbi interviewed at least one more person who accused hastert of sexual abuse. and we also know the name of another alleged victim, steve ryan doelt. he bolt. he died in 1995. his sister says that her brother was sexually abused in the late '60s and early '70s. she says hastert who was a coach and teacher abused her brother who was the team's equipment manager repeatedly and for years. she said she first learned of this when reinboldt first told her he was gay in 1979. >> i asked him, steve, when was your first same-sex experience? he just looked at me and said, it was with dennis hastert. and i just -- i know i was stunned. i said, why didn't you ever tell anybody, stevie? i mean he was your teacher. why didn't you ever tell anybody? he just looked at me and said, who is ever going to believe me?

>> the fbi contacted burdge two weeks ago. hastert is due in federal court next week on charges of bank fraud and lying to the fbi about alleged hush money that he paid to someone identified only as individual "a." there are many open questions and it's possible that hastert himself is a victim in all of this. here to help me break it all down defense attorney and cnn legal analyst mark o'mara. mark you're not used to this but allow me to ask you leading questions. you ready? >> certainly. absolutely. >> isn't it true that he is not being prosecuted for any sexual misconduct? >> that is correct. he's not. >> isn't it true if the underlying facts stem from events of 34 to 50 years ago, the statute of limitations for those underlying events has probably run? >> almost definitely, correct. >> therefore, if he paid money to keep quiet someone who didn't have a cognizable legal claim, there is the potential that this case is one of extortion?

>> that's correct. if he was being threatened with some type of public exposure and paid money in that regard, then the person who threatened him would be guilty of extortion. >> do you think -- i'm finished with the leading questions. thank you for playing along. >> thank you. >> do you think that in this case the feds might be reluctant to charge individual "a" with extortion if they think such a case exists because they regard individual "a" as a victim of sexual abuse and they don't want to be put in that position? >> well, they do have discretion in how they're going to prosecute a case. i think that they're probably going to look at it a little more analytically. there are rape shield statutes that say that they cannot disclose a sexual abuse victim's name even afterwards. we know that's why they're calling them individual "a." i would tell you if individual "a" put himself in a position of committing extortion, i think that will override the discretion given to law enforcement.

if they have a legitimate extortion claim, they're going to go forward with it. >> you wonder if at this stage dennis hastert is cooperating with law enforcement in this regard. has he provided his version of events sufficient that they would be able to make an extortion claim to the extent there might be one underlying all of this? >> that's the real problem for hastert. i mean, if i'm him criminal defense lawyer, what do you say? talk to the feds about the fact that somebody who you voluntarily agreed to pay $3 million to to cover up what now seems to be a sexual abuse allegation that may well have been true with all the other victims identified and, michael you know as well as i do, this might well be the tip of the iceberg as far as potential victims out there. so does he deal or cooperate with fbi or feds knowing full well that within that cooperation he is going to have to admit to every act that they're going to ask him about and every other potential victim? if i'm his criminal defense

lawyer, you may want to weather the storm of this bad publicity, keep your mouth shut deal with an archaic attack under this banking statute and not open yourself up to the ridicule he'll have if he starts talking. >> mark, you and i as two attorneys i don't want a viewer of cnn to think i'm sympathetic towards hastert if, in fact, he was responsible for this kind of conduct. i just want to explain that there are some legal dynamics to this which make it complex. it's not just a case of, de did he molest these individuals? >> absolutely true. it may well be. it looks more, as more victims come out, that he did. not speculating too much. but if that's true, he's got to deal with those sins, with those crimes some way, somehow sometime. but, you're right, the legal analysis of this, which, again, we get dispassionate because we have to be. you start looking at crimes of 30 years ago, statutes have run even with the one person who had acknowledged or stated to the

sister about the abuse, that wouldn't make it into a courtroom. so, yeah, there are some real legal problems with where we're going on this case. >> final question for mark o'mara. what business is it of the federal government if an individual has more than $10,000 in a bank and chooses to withdraw it? >> not very much, to tell you the truth. it's the al campaign capone maybe method so when you can't get him on much you get them on tax evasion. one, he took money out and why. when you didn't tell thus truth you lied to us and may try to get him on some, well, you know they're trying to get him on this archaic banking argument and then maybe lying to the feds about it. it's difficult, it's a stretch. but we all know now that we're probably looking at the underlying sexual abuse crimes because that's what they found out about, and now they're just trying to bring it to the forefront however they can. >> we'll learn more at the arraignment on tuesday. mark o'mara, thank you as always

for your analysis. >> thanks. i want to turn now to the molestation scandal that is rocking the duggars. the popular family behind the tlc show "19 kids and counting." jim bob and michelle speaking out for the first time this week but their interview with fox news' megyn kelly has left more questions than answers, particularly about the so-called safeguards they put in place after eldest son josh admitted to molesting four of his sisters. two of the sisters, jessa and jill spoke out about the scandal. here's what they had to say last night. >> in josh's case, he was a boy a young boy in puberty, and a little too curious about girls. and that got him into some trouble. and he made some bad choices. but really the extent of it was mild inappropriate touching on fully clothed victims. most of it while girls were sleeping. >> we didn't even know about it until he went and confessed it to my parents and they shared it with us.

>> neither one of you knew? >> i want to bring in psychiatrist dr. gail saltz. she wrote the book "anatomy of a secret life." the sisters are defensive of the brother. is that to be expected in a case like this involving family? >> it's not unusual. it's not unusual actually when children are abused by their parents or by a sibling because they still love that person and they need to have that person be a good person in their lives as they stay attached. so it's a defense mechanism to feel you know to some degree this is understandable or excusable. it's sometimes why victims feel shame or guilt, did i do something, is it my fault in some way? on the other hand, it may also be that if you have treatment over time and the other person has treatment over time that you are able to rebuild a relationship. i don't want to say you should therefore not love your sibling anymore and have it all be over. but, yes, to defend them is your

psychic defense mechanism. >> i heard dad say this week, we didn't have a reporting requirement. what is a parent to do if, god forbid, they find themselves in the position of learning that a son or a daughter has acted improperly like this? >> i think, unfortunately, in a scenario like this parents are kind of in a no-win situation. as far as the law is concerned that's a different scenario from i think, the public health issue of is it safe to have this person around, around your children or around other children? that's why public reporting or reporting to authorities, child services being able to come in and assess, is so important. and that's often done by the medical professional which is why it's also so important to get treatment, treatment for the victims and treatment for the perpetrator. >> i get that. but do you think most parents really would report to the authorities what has taken place with a 14-year-old son? >> i think they often would not. >> right. >> you're asking me, is that a good thing? >> it's not a good thing. >> it's not a good thing. but i think it's a common -- you know first of all, you convince

yourself that you can handle it within the home. these parents love their children and the sisters loved the brother. i mean, they really tried in the way that they knew how. but there were some failings and the failings come into account in terms of what kind of mental health care treatment. i think not all treatment is created equal. they have been very vague about counselors. counselor doesn't mean anything. that doesn't have a term. you need someone who is really trained, has an expertise in this area, has a real degree and really knows how to work with and treat. because treatment does help. but treatment can hurt if it's with somebody who is not qualified. >> they are upset. the family is upset that this is playing itself out in public and yet the springdale arkansas city solicitor says, we went by the book. the names were redacted in the way in which we produced this information purrsuant to a foia request. >> i think it was a huge mistake to release this information. it's terrible for the victims and any potential victims.

kfrd confidentiality is the cornerstone of any decent psychotherapy and the cornerstone of this type of reporting in juvenile kids. you ask me, will kids report this? sofrnl l certainly they won't if they think it will follow them for the rest of their lives and be revealed. i think they had a duty to keep that confidential. that's a moral duty. is it legal? that's a different story. >> how about this judgment on their part, the judgment of after these events have played themselves out, there's a knock at the door and somebody wants to do a reality television program and bring cameras into your home. isn't the reasonable answer to say, holy smokes, we have some issues here, we don't want the cameras? it's the same question dr. saltz, i asked about dr. hastert. dennis hastert followed sexual improprietor tepriety on his fellow colleagues. maybe he would say, i shouldn't be the speaker of the house. >> we're always curious about this. why do people come out and do this public thing that is so far in the opposite direction. become the pillar of morality when there is some real skeleton in their closet? i think it's psychically motivated. it's called splitting.

it's basically the mind's way of saying to itself, imnot guilty of this. i do not have this urge to do something sexually wrong. in fact, i'm the opposite. i'm so the opposite that i will be the moral pillar for the world and show everyone and show myself that i'm that good. and it's something that psychologically goes on. you talk about mark foley, hag ert, you say, why were they actually the representative of the best of the best when this was going on? that is what the mind does to try to squelch urge. when the better thing to do is to understand that urge so that you don't need to continue to act on it and behave on it. >> final question about the duggars. i am not a psychiatrist. i only get to play one on tv. is this confirmation of my poof theory of life? that if you keep your kids so buttoned up and don't give them a taste of freedom, when they have the opportunity, they can't handle it? >> is being incredibly sexually

repressed going to produce some problems? potentially, yes. do most people who are so repressed with their kids have their 15-year-old molest their 5-year-old? no. so it can't account for all of it, i would say. >> sounds like the dsm will not have the poof theory in it anytime soon. thank you for that. coming up, so far ron paul hasn't had much of a role in his son's campaign, but that has been by design, maybe, to keep conservatives happy? and is it about to change? is a new rand paul emerging? ron paul joins me next to discuss the father/son relationship. the same way, you devour food that's not good for you. ♪ get the complete balanced nutrition of ensure. with nine grams of protein... and 26 vitamins and minerals. and now with... ...twice as much vitamin d ...which up to 90% of people don't get enough of. the sunshine vitamin!

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welcome back. fresh off his patriot act fight rand paul is proving he is a lot closer politically to his father ron paul than some rank and file republicans are comfortable with. so far ron paul has had much of a role in his son's campaign. but is that about to change? ron paul joins me now. let's talk about the 2016 cycle. what is it about rand that gives you hope that he can get to the next level that you were never able to achieve? >> well, i think the main thing he is he's the only one, from my viewpoint, that's talking any common sense. obviously, people point out that we're not identical and who would expect us to be identical? but he speaks more about personal liberty and limited government, a changed foreign policy, auditing the fed and looking into our monetary system. and, you know they said, when he did the nsa thing people said you know he's done he's finished. you know republicans and democrats all in the -- everybody in washington jumped

on him. yet, when you did a poll of the national people they were with him and not with mcconnell. so the american people, i think he is able to talk more to the american people than the other candidates because i think he has a set of principles which means he would much rather see smaller government and not make excuses for expanding the surveillance state and not expanding our military presence around the world. you can't be conservative if you're always expanding government on surveillance and expanding government in the military and industrial complex and standing our government around the world. there's nothing conservative about that. that's big government spending as far as i'm concerned. >> now that he's running for the white house, does he ever call you and say, dad, you have to reign it in on these issues? don't rock the boat? >> no, he never has. actually, like ick said, he's made his own decisions politically, and it's a busy job. and he has called me on things like mortgages and things and financial issues you know

fannie mae and freddie mac and what we went through in '09. so those kind of things yes, the financials. but he'll -- he stays pretty busy. he'll be visiting us this summer and probably visit some more. >> are you going to get out on the stump for him? >> there's no plans for it, and we haven't talked about it. so i don't know what we'll do. i went to his announcement and supported him there. but it's his show right now. i don't want to distract from what he's doing. it's one of those things that i think it will work its way out. >> hey, congressman, when you ran for president, you had to share the debate stage but not with 15 or 16 other candidates. how should this process be managed, given the number of individuals who are seeking the gop nod? >> i'll take it out of the hands of the media because that becomes very biased.

you know i remember the first debate, a little bit of that happening before the most important first debate was in new hampshire. and it was a fox debate, and i was scheduled to be on it. i was doing very well in the polls but i think two days before or something, ron paul, you're not allowed to come to the debate which obviously was a negative for me. so, no, i don't think it should have as much clout. i think it was better when voters or some other independent group. but a truly independent group should schedule the debates rather than media outlets because i think they're very, very slanted. >> does one media outlet, fox, let's call it out, play too much of a kingmaker role in this process? >> well, for the republicans, i guess so. but, you know, i think that the american people right now are getting more of their news, you know off the majors because they are concerned about it. we need more people like you,

michael, because you and i at least can discuss these things. but this is not average that we're able to have a discussion and respect each other's viewpoints. too often it is very, very slanted. that is the toughest part, to maintain a little bit of decorum when those who are interviewing you are always trying to set you up and do harm to you because they have their agenda. and fox is well known for that. you know, on somebody like myself who is more libertarian than typical conservative, pro war, they don't like that. >> congressman, i want to show a picture that i saw on twitter, and i believe that it's you with your wife looking at a television set as rand paul is speaking from the floor of the united states senate, and it brings to mind this final question. what is the source of more pride, your own personal achievements in elective office or the achievements of your son?

>> i have to admit, i think they're one in the same because political achievements are secondary for me. i thought they were worthwhile for me as well as for rand. but for one reason, that we're promoting something we seriously believe in, that we believe we're doing some good. so i can look at what he's done with nsa, and i have to say that i have to sort of search around for what i've achieved. but i made an effort, and maybe, you know, opened up the door. but, no i would say it's equal and that the measurement is whether or not anybody respected the views we have and actually nudged them. and where i get personal satisfaction is when i talk to young people, the college kids that are still willing to talk about these issues, and they tend to like civil liberties, and they're anti-war and they would like to see less, you know of our fighting overseas and they like sound money. so that's what i personally get satisfaction from. but i think that's equal for

rand and myself. >> congressman, good to catch up with you again. thank you so much for being here. >> okay, michael. coming up, caitlyn jenner's big reveal. she made a splash this week and the world got a vip invite to her coming out party. next i'll speak with a physician who has herself transitioned and now performs gender confirmation surgery. ok guys, pause the movie we're going to watch the rest in the toyota camry. hit play again ehhh. what happened? you can't watch the movie. ugh... no network connection. who wants to go back in the chevy malibu? me! let's go! peace out! chevrolet. the first and only car company to bring built-in 4g lte wi-fi to cars, trucks and crossovers. this is cool. yeah. ♪ ♪ when you're living with diabetes steady is exciting. only glucerna has carbsteady clinically proven to help minimize blood sugar spikes. so you stay steady ahead.

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welcome back. this week the world met caitlyn jenner. my next guest has a unique perspective on this story. dr. christine mcgwynn is a plastic surgeon who specializes in gender confirmation surgery. since her own transition 15 years ago, she has been an activist and speaker on gender variant issues and appears on the documentary "trans." thank you so much for being here. >> morning. >> what did you make of the

rollout of caitlyn's rollout? >> i was excited to see it and i think she looked great and i did catch her diane sawyer interview. so far so good. >> no elements of it that seem exploitative to you given the reality show? >> well i definitely cringe as a physician whenever i see the world get their education on gender as for ya in a show like the kardashians. but it is a free country and she has a right to tell her story. she's in a unique situation where her livelihood sort of depends on it. just as long as the world knows that not every transgender person goes through a transition like this. >> this seems rather rapid. but you're the expert. is the pace with which this transition has taken place typical? >> i think it always seems rapid to those who aren't directly involved because most times it's kept a secret for so long and then when that person makes up their mind and decides to go through with it, it happens fast because, i mean, for caitlyn a whole lifetime. she couldn't probably get it done soon enough. >> i have lots of questions.

pardon my naivety, but i want to go through a quick list of this if i may. is the surgery that you perform perfected for both men and women who are transitioning? >> the male to female surgery is very good. there's always room for improvement, but i think we're at a very good spot right now. and for the female to male surgeries, it's a little more difficult to make something that's not there than to take away. because we have more tissue to work with. but it's improving day by day. in this country we don't do a lot of the, to get technical, -- because it's so expensive. >> do men and women transition in equal proportion? it seems like the cases that get most often discussed are men transitioning to female. >> i agree. i think that male to female seems to be in the news a lot more. but we don't have any hard numbers on it but i would predict based on my practice it's about equal. >> why is so much of this

surgery performed overseas? >> well in this country there's a long history of insurance not paying for it and it's very expensive. other countries have set up a whole medical corism and it's much cheaper in places like thailand. >> when you say cheaper, ballpark what the transition would cost? >> something in the united states could run for a vaginalplasty for male to female would be from $17,000 to $25,000 and in thailand it's like $10,000 or $12,000. >> is insurance changing in which the way it treats it in the united states? are more carriers picking up the cost of gender confirmation surgery? >> we're in the middle of a lot of change right now because, yes, they are. >> with the affordable care act play a role in that? >> yes. and president obama has also removed the barriers for medicare which used to have it as an exclusion. >> so here you are someone who has transitioned yourself now performing this type of surgery.

is it difficult for you as a practitioner to get hospital privileges to do so? >> yeah, it has been. it has been difficult in the early stages to even get malpractice insurance. i'm friends with most of the major surgeons who perform this and at one time or another i think all of our careers have been affected by that. >> is that changing? >> of course. yeah the whole field is so much different than it was ten years ago. >> do you think that the concerns that have been expressed whether it's malpractice insurance or whether to grant you privileges to perform gender confirmation surgery is based in religion or based in science? what do you think the predicate is? >> i think it's based in social norms because it's certainly not based in science. this surgery has been going on since the late '60s in this country. it's not experimental. we have tons of research that says it works and it is improving quality of life for these people. >> how young is too young to begin this process? >> well, the standard of care is usually we wait until 18 years

old, but we do have exceptions to that based on each individual patient. because we don't want to make somebody wait until 18 when their life might be in jeopardy over feeling so badly about it. >> how do you protect against buyer's remorse that someone undergoes gender reassignment or confirmation surgery and then later regrets it? >> that's very rare. i would say less than 1%, less than 0.5%. i think the media likes to pick up on that and portray it because that's everybody's fear. but the reality is the screening and if someone goes through the process in the correct manner, we don't really see too much of it. and if we do see it, it tends to be a social situation. not that they're not transgender but they're in a situation where their family is very religious or they aren't able to make money. >> i would imagine that before you perform, dr. mcgwynn, the surgery you want to be assured from a psychological or psychiatric perspective this

person is ready. >> yes, i get very involved with that. >> final question, hope it's not crass. do you think caitlyn jenner will be good for your business? do you expect your phone to ring because people seeing this coming out will be under taking a process they were fearful of? >> people like caitlyn and chaz bono are high profile. i think the rest of the world sees them but the transgender community is a very small, tight-knit community online and i don't really think it's going to change things. there's not a lot of people who do what i do so we're pretty busy always. >> thank you for that. dr. mcgwynn we appreciate your expertise. hillary clinton calling out her gop rivals by name insisting they're afraid to let citizens have their say. it's all part of her new push to support voting rights, but does she have another agenda? plus, lindsey graham's announcement of a 2016 run has put his personal life at the forefront. is america ready for a bachelor president?

welcome back. jeb sets a date. rick perry is running again. and hillary is calling out her rivals by name.

it was another busy week in the world of politics. let's dive right in. joining me now, nationally syndicated columnist and cnn political commentator s.e. cupp and columnist and liberal commentator ellis han acan. ellis, i expected hillary clinton's numbers to decline when she formally got into the race. but i don't think anybody could have foreseen that 57% would say she's not trustworthy and honest. how does she get beyond that? >> well, she ought to start campaigning and move things on to her agenda instead of just sitting back and taking the hits on the foundation and on the e-mails. get out and mix with some people. go show the good side of hillary. all we've seen is the bad side the first few weeks. >> s.e., i think that we could run this race tomorrow and get very close to the result that we will get in november of 2016. the independents? she had an 11-point drop in just three months among independents. >> yeah, also among democrats. and i think, you know, if you listen to hillary's surrogates

over the past few months defend her campaign plan, which was not to engage with the press and not to take a lot of questions, they said, don't worry about it. she hasn't had to do any of this because her numbers have been good. well now her numbers aren't good. so i think you have to start -- you're going to start seeing hillary have to start engaging with the media, taking questions. and, frankly, you know, she's not always very good at defending herself, whether it's her record or her larger than life persona, her wealth. she's had problems doing this before. so i think she's been reluctant to really put herself out there for that reason. but with these numbers, she's got to start doing something different. >> let's switch gears and go to the gop side of the aisle. ellis, jeb bush now says it will be june 15 when he will make it official. hasn't he just proven what a sham these election laws are? of course he's running for president.

and it's not just jeb, but he's been a master practitioner added. to go out and run the vacuum cleaner of all the funds and then finally to announce one's candidacy. >> yeah, absolutely right. in the media we're enablers, too. we make, oh, my goodness, is he weighing a run? thinking about a run? oh, look, he's exploring a run. we cover that stuff as if it actually has any truth in it. we should just ignore it and assume he's running from the beginning. and oh, he made an official announcement yesterday. >> s.e., you wrote a column about lindsey graham this week. yes, lindsey graham is a batchelor. who cares? what was the point you are making? >> when we have such a big field as we do now, you'll find people trying to find ways to distinguish these people from one another. and one of the story lines we're all zeroing in on is that lindsey graham is the bachelor candidate, and what does it mean? you see a lot of folks in the media trying to make something of this. and, frankly, i just don't think

it means anything. you know, he's got 20 years of a record in the senate, plenty of stuff to talk about. he's not an uninteresting politician when it comes to his policies and the things that he's done. i think there's a lot for us to talk about with his policies without having to talk about his home life. >> the headline in part at cnn.com, no, being unmarried doesn't make lindsey graham a feminist. i thought i was going to say something else at the end of that sentence. >> yeah. i mean, can't you just imagine someone at salon or, frankly, someone at like red state writing that lindsey graham's bachelorhood makes him some kind of feminist because he hasn't tied down a woman to his political career. i just, i mean, you know, the political season is crazy. it's the silly season. we're going to see all kinds of crazy story lines and would not be surprised if someone tries to make that part of the lindsey graham story. >> ellis, i just interviewed ron

paul. this week rand paul seemed like a chip off the old block. is that a calculated decision? has he decided that that's where his space lies in the gop, to be more of the libertarian embodiment of dad? >> this is what he's got. i mean there are 417 righties in the race. if you're rand, you say, what is it that makes me different? turns out he's got some things. for months he was downplaying them and hiding them. i say go be rand. it's a whole lot better. frankly, it's the only way he'll be able to chip off part of the constituency there. >> s.e., i was surprised when i asked ron paul a moment ago when will you get out there on the trail for rand and he hesitated and said, it's his moment in time. it's not mine. i was there for the announcement. how do you think rand paul should use ron paul? >> ellis just said rand should go be rand. i don't think rand knows who rand is.

rand uses his father when co-opting the libertarian isolationist group is beneficial and then distances himself from ron paul when he knows that ron paul's policies are unpalatable to most republicans. so i think rand paul's challenge is constantly trying to find a way to turn his libertarian philosophies into actual governing policies and he is finding that to be very, very difficult. >> ellis, 30 seconds left. rick perry gets into the race this week. is that all about trying to erase the memory of what happened in the oops moment and other aspects of the 2012 campaign? >> you know, michael, he's got to try harder to erase it out of my mind. i'm sorry. i mean i think the launch was fine but i can't help looking at the guy and just thinking you're damaged goods, you know? he hasn't done anything to make me think it was an aberration that he fumbled last time so much. he seems like a fine guy, but i just don't think he can get past it. i think it's too late. >> we'll find out.

thank you, great analysis. s.e. cupp and ellis han i can, we appreciate you. coming up, pataki unplugged. the former new york governor has thrown his name into the 2016 presidential race. he's hoping to emerge as the gop's more moderate candidate. but how will he feel if donald trump ends up on that debate stage and he doesn't? he's here with me next. while others go in circles... and repeat themselves... we choose to carve our own path, in the pursuit of exhilaration.

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now with the xfinity tv go app, you can watch live tv anytime. it's never been easier with so many networks all in one place. get live tv whenever you want. the xfinity tv go app. now with live tv on the go. enjoy over wifi or on verizon wireless 4g lte. plus enjoy special savings when you purchase any new verizon wireless smartphone or tablet from comcast. visit comcast.com/wireless to learn more. welcome back. former new york governor george pataki has flirted with presidential runs in the past, but this time he's in. prior to his recent announcement of a 2016 run, pataki admitted to friends and allies he's a

long shot for the gop nomination. out of office since 2006, he's trying to get back on the radar in republican circles. he hopes his bipartisan appeal signals a resurgence of the moderate republican. and governor pataki is joining me now. governor, it seems like the dynamics have changed for 2016 and that the way to get ahead, at least in the early stages for the nomination fight, is not the retail politicking but rather to boost your name identification nationwide so that you get in the debates. do you find that frustrating, the way this is coming together where there could be 16 individuals and not room for everybody on the debate stage? >> you know, i don't let things frustrate me. the rules are what the rules are. cnn just had a poll after i announced showing that i was in the top ten and i would make the debates at this point. whether that's the case or not, you have your vision, you have your ideas and you go out there and you make the case and you meet people.

and, by the way, michael, i'm a great believer in retail politics. maybe the experts say you have to do it nationally. i'm going to be out there sitting down across the table from people in new hampshire, letting them know my views, having them ask me a question looking me in the eye, no pollster telling me what to say. and i'm very comfortable with that. >> the possibility exists, though, governor, that donald trump could be on that stage and you might not be if you don't make the ten-person cut. >> if i don't, i don't. the rules are what the rules are. that debate is august 5th of 2015. the election is november of 2016. i'm not so concerned about where i start out from as where i end up. >> hey, governor, let's enter a lightning round. pataki on the issues, unplugged five issues, relatively brief responses. number one, the iranian nuclear deal. your thoughts? >> it's a bad deal. it almost guarantees not just an iranian nuclear weapon but a sunni response nuclear weapon. it should not happen. we have to prevent iran from having a nuclear bomb.

>> issue number two. as a result of what transpired in the senate this past week, no longer will the government warehouse the bulk phone records but rather the phone companies will. governor pataki says what? >> i think it's a bad mistake on the part of congress. when i first heard edward snowden talking about tapping of phones and recording of phones of all americans, i was outraged. but if you look into it, there were no phone names, there were no phone content. it was simply a meta data of numbers. and they could only access that if they had a court order saying those people were communicating with someone they had very clear proof was possibly engaged in terrorist activity. the other big problem with this michael, is we say the data is still there, we can get it from the phone companies. there's nothing requiring the phone companies to keep that data. they can get rid of that data. just look at boston just last week where this radicalized

american was looking to behead someone in the united states. they were monitoring his phone calls. i'd like to know who was working with him, who was plotting with him, who might still be out there prepared to launch a violent attack against american citizens here. >> issue three for governor pataki, raise the minimum wage from 7.25, to 10.10 or thereabouts about per hour. >> you know, if you want to raise it from 7 to 10.10 or whatever, why not go to 20? and the answer is, when you raise the minimum wage, you drive up the cost of goods ad services and you increase unemployment. take a look at downtown baltimore. right now it's something where america should be focused because there isn't economic opportunity. 22 to 24-year-old young adults, the unemployment rate is 47%. raising the minimum wage doesn't help someone if they don't have a job, and there will be more who don't have jobs. there's a better way.

the better way is to have people get an earned income tax credit hope from the government so they don't live below the poverty wage. it has to be a program that's well run and in a way that goes after fraud. but helping low-income people advance up the economic ladder instead of denying them a job is the way to go. >> issue four of five, common core. >> i think it's a bad idea. the idea of having a national dictate from washington saying what every kid in every school in every community in every state in america has to learn is simply wrong. and i know the defenders are saying, oh, no, no, we need standards. of course we need standards. but education standards have always been set at the state level. i have confidence in the states. they say, well, washington really won't dictate. the first thing they did is say we're not going to dictate, but we're going to have hundreds of millions of dollars and unless you have common core you're not going to get it. it's a bad idea. >> and, finally, how would president pataki resolve the

differences between federal and some state law relative to marijuana? >> you know, i would -- i think there's a real problem here with the federal government has a law it's not enforcing. i would allow the states to experiment. the states are the laboratories of democracy. but i would do it in a way where they were required to report statistics on crime, statistics on dependency, statistics on mental illness and health consequences very promptly so that we would use those handful of states who have legalized it as a laboratory where we could develop the data to see what the federal law longer term should be. >> where is the moderate pataki and what have you done with him? those are five very conservative positions you've taken. >> these are positions i believe in. you know, i ran for governor of new york state as a republican conservative, tough on crime, going to cut taxes across the

board, going to replace welfare with workfare and dependency with opportunity. i've never defined myself other than as a conservative. compared to some of the candidates out there, i'm sure compared to a lot of the rhetoric, i'm going to be portrayed as this left-wing democrat masquerading as a republican. i am what i am, michael. some people agree. some people don't. but, you know, i don't have a consultant or pollster in the other ear saying this is what it says it's what i believe. >> i'm george pataki and i approve this message. thank you, governor, we appreciate you being here. >> thank you, michael, great being on with you. i'll be right back with more on what's going on right behind me.

♪ no artificial flavors, this is cnn breaking news. >> breaking news. after 37 years, the triple crown curse has finally been lifted. american pharaoh pulling off a thrilling performance at the belmont stakes to capture one of the most elusive prizes in all of sports history. we have live team coverage on the ground. cnn's richard roth cnn's andy schultz standing by. guys we were all on the edges of our seats. what a moment. what a moment. 37 years in the making. richard what do you make of it? you're there. >> reporter: oh, i can't believe that this has happened. to hear you and all of us here say the words that america has a

triple crown first in tlech year37 years. andy? >> reporter: affirmed is no longer the reigning champion of horse racing. now we will say american pharaoh 37 years the drought is finally over. richard, i know you've been a part of many failed attempts here. there's been 13 in the last 37 years. why was american pharaoh able to make this happen today? >> reporter: yes, i know. i've seen a lot of failure in my time. the horse, according to his trainer bob baffert, has like an extra gear. he glides over the track. baffert as you may have noticed, was so confident this week it was eerie. he was saying you better tune in. it's like he knew this horse was sitting on a huge charge down the stretch. >> reporter: he's said all week poppy, he needed to have a good start and we saw it right away. from where we are, we're about a quarter mile from the starting line. american pharaoh passed us in first place. never gave up the lead. incredible performance. >> it is absolutely

extraordinary. he came in american pharaoh, at 2 minutes 26 seconds, only 2 seconds behind the track record set by secretariat back in 1973 of 2 minutes 24 seconds. interesting fact here, this is the first time that a jockey victor espinoza has had a third chance at the triple crown. this time he pulled it off. what does this mean for this jockey? >> reporter: oh for the jockey who after the kentucky derby said he was the luckiest mexican in the world. i'm sure he'll raise it to new levels. look he has failed before here and he almost won last year with california chrome and then lost. but he first lost the first time was war emblem in 2002. so he knows the frustration. he's got to feel incredible. a lot of marketing deals and talk show appearances. >> reporter: he'll be set for life. i'm sure he'll make the rounds in the media circuit. he's now a celebrity. he'll be a household name pretty soon. >> reporter: i'm sure you want to ask, what does this mean for

horse racing, which now there's a triple crown winner. >> reporter: there is conflicting views on that. some people think it's good for the sport. some people think it's terrible for the sport. now we've got our triple crown, next year if a horse is going for it here at belmont it won't be that big of a deal. >> reporter: it's a huge development. they want stars in horse racing. this lors either way this horse will be retired by the echbtd year. >> let's talk about the trainer, bob baffert, the legendary in the horse racing world. fourth try at the triple crown, he makes it this time. how significant is it for him? he's ranked number two out of about 4800 trainers in north america. >> reporter: well, he's definitely never -- he's definitely number one now. he talked about it all week. american pharaoh is the best hand he's been dealt going with the triple crown. he just glided on the track, and you've got to feel great for bob

baffert. he admits the triple crown as you know richard. >> reporter: his owner, ahmed zayat at wynn point hired and fired bob baffert. this happens in horse racing. zayat is a big better. he's had big bets bad bets. he's been sued. he says it's sad that people were going after him during this special week. his family slept at the track because the family is mostly orthodox jewish. they're in a trailer in the back of the track some day to wake up in a trailer at belmont park and then win the triple crown later in the day. >> american pharaoh was potentially going to be up for sale. one of the people who examined the horse said no matter what you do sell your house before you sell this horse. now it's definitely great advice. >> i think that was some very very good advice. luckily the official time just coming in for us, american pharaoh's winning time here at the belmont, 2 minutes 26.65.

2:26:65, just two seconds shy of the track record set by secretariat in 1973. this is a 3-year-old colt. the 43-year-old jockey mexican victor espinoza. guys when you look at this what do you think this means going forward? richard roth to you who has been there so many times waiting and wait forge a win. is the curse over? is it going to be another 37 years? >> reporter: i was here in 1997 silver charm one of the more recent losers then the next year real quiet a baffert horse was nipped by a nose at the wire. i mean maybe that's what kept this streak going. look it's sad. i'd love to say, i'm sure you'd like to say this is going to galvanize horse racing which has been one of the dying somewhat sports along with boxing in america. it has big event days. the sad part is you may only have 2,000 people at the tracks tomorrow. i don't -- there are going to be huge crowds if american pharaoh runs again. what do you think? >> reporter: i personally think this is