that does it for us. see you again at 11:00 p.m. eastern. cnn tonight starts now. this is cnn breaking news. >> there is breaking news in the hunt for two escaped killers in upstate new york. this is cnn tonight. i'm don lemon. as the search area expands, there are new details about the alleged plot to kill the husband of joyce mitchell. the prison employee charged as an accomplice in the escape. also, it is the last question you'd expect americans to be asking in 2015. >> are you an african-american woman? >> i identify as black. >> but what exactly does that mean for rachel dolezal, a former naacp leader who was born

white? and what do african-americans say? i have a great line of guests, including rachel dolezal's brother and her parents, who say their daughter is disconnected to reality. donald trump enters a gop race for the white house. should americans take his candidacy seriously? we're going to begin with the hunt for the escaped prisoners. randy is in new york for us this evening. i understand you have new information about the alleged plot to kill joyce mitchell's husband. what can you tell us about what? >> reporter: we do, don. we spoke with a source close to the investigation, with direct knowledge, and the source told me joyce mitchell warned her husband, lyle mitchell, that he could be killed by the escapees. she was familiar with the escape plan and use about the alleged plot to kill her husband. she was very worried, apparently, according to the source. she spilled everything to her

husband, telling him about the escape plan and about the plot to take him out. that is how lyle mitchell, the husband, is connected to this case now, from what we understand from the source. they were looking at him as possibly having knowledge of the escape plan or maybe even being involved in helping plot the escape plan. now, they simply think that joyce mitchell alerted her husband to it, and that he simply had knowledge of the plan, don. >> the twists and turns in this story is unbelievable. in terms of joyce's relationship with richard matt, which last night we learned was a sexual relationship, have you learned any more about that? >> reporter: yeah. as we were discussing last night, we found out it was a sexual relationship with richard matt. he is a very, very violent man. convicted of killing and dismembering his neighbor. this sexual relationship began in 2013, and that's when the other escapee, david sweat, was removed from the tailor shop where joyce mitchell worked with the escapees, and also her

husband who did maintenance. i'm told the relationship between mitchell and matt took place in the tailor shop according to the source. that is the only place in the prison the two of them would have been together. that's why it would have had to have happened in the tailor shop. >> what about others who may have been involved in this elap r -- elaborate escape? >> reporter: they're still looking. it is such an elaborate plan, so it look a lot of planning in advance. they are wondering at this point, and certainly looking into according to the source, other prisoners. maybe they created some type of distraction either during the escape or maybe before or after the escape. i'm also told that joyce mitchell is not the only prison employee they are looking at. they're looking at everyone inside that prison. they are absolutely not stopping at just joyce mitchell. >> we had someone in the prison last night, someone who is married to that person, and said he's only been allowed out ten

minutes to take a shower since this went down. you're standing in front of what used to be a checkpoint. has has the search changed? >> reporter: it's interesting. it used to take us a half hour from our hotel to the prison, which is a few miles down the road. this is highway 374, and it was checkpoint after checkpoint. the state police officers with their rifles, search teams out. we'd see the canine units. literally, moments before we went on the air with you, don, they finished breaking down the checkpoint that was one of the major checkpoints right here. as you know, they're moving the search efforts to another area outside of dannemoradannemora, prison is located. the weather has hampered efforts. they have these items in the woods. these are the motion detecters that have cameras on them. i'm told the rains have been so heavy that they're unable to take pictures. they were hoping to see if they could find the escapees in the

woods. >> appreciate your reporting. i'm joined by harry, a retired new york city police detective, and rory, a former inmate. he is a senior case manager. i'm glad to have you all here. randy, you're with me now. to rory, i should say. what do you think of the new developments? >> one of the things is that the opportunity that someone might have to cause this elaborate plan would during the day time, if anything. >> and the relationship, allegedly, the husband may have been the target of this plot, and he didn't know anything about it, but she allegedly warned him about it. what do you make of that? >> i don't know if that was more conversation than anything, to try and appease her. if that was necessary. i mean, this guy, matt, was probably all about himself. he's trying to get away. i don't know if he was going to stop to do what she asked. >> do you think they'd give her

the right information, or do you think she's part of the plot to throw everybody else, that they may have fed her false information? >> i think she probably did give misinformation, that was given to her. just as an aside, i think one of the things that might have happened is there could have been a motorcycle waiting. total diversion. somebody with a helmet on. who is looking at that? >> harry, why is it important to know when lyle mitchell learned of the plot to kill him? why is that important? >> basically because, you know, if her husband knew about the plot before the escape, why didn't the husband tell authorities? that's why it's very important. did you washe wait until before after the escape to say something? if he shows before the escape, she's involved by not saying anything. did he feel bad for his wife? did he not want to say anything because he knew she might go to

jail? that's something that's important. we need to find that out. >> what about the possibility, harry, he's just in fear of his life and didn't know what to do? >> if he's in fear for his life when the prisoners are in jail, that doesn't make sense. if he finds out after, he'd be in fear of his life. still, why wouldn't you go to the authorities? they might have just said this to maybe scare her, or maybe she was part of the plan herself. she was going to run away with the two guys. there's no doubt that these guys had a plan b. they would have been found out within three days of the escape if they were marching around the woods. i think they had a plan b, and i don't think they're anywhere around to be found. >> what about the question i asked rory, maybe part of the plan was to feed her false information to throw people off the trail. >> without a doubt. a woman like her is easily broken. she's got no control record at

all. some smart detectives can interrogate her and break her in a heartbreak. she's not a felon that will sit there and lie to the police. if she did, they had plenty of days to interrogate her and interview her to find out the truth. i think they know the real truth. >> we've talked a lot about manipulation before. do you, harry, do these details about a sexual relationship between richard matt and joyce mitchell, does any of this surprise you? >> not at all. i'll tell you what, i don't think women should work in men's prisons, and i don't think men should work in women's prisons, just because of an issue like this. >> rory, you don't agree with that, do you? >> i don't agree. one of the things is having women around men helps to ease some of the tension sometimes. if it's always men on men, and it's always a conflict all the time, most men are usually gentlemen at heart. if there is a woman around, there is some things they won't do because they don't want to have to hurt a woman.

>> harry? >> like i said, i don't agree. i think there is the emotional response, emotional problems. she had gotten too close to these guys. looks like she was having sex with them. that emotional element is what we do not need to have in a prison. that's why i think there ought to be the same sex in the same prisons so things like this can't happen. you hear stories about people that work in prisons having sex with prisoners. that's a problem. we have to make sure that it no longer is a problem. that's why we should have same-sex persons in same-sex prisons. >> are you surprised by this sexual relationship at all, rory? >> people are people no matter where they are. someone would become vulnerable, if her self-esteem was not high. the fact that he was probably a good looking guy and had been around her, able to talk to him, he was at ease and she became at

ease. there are also same-sex relationships in prison. women and women and men and men. that's not going to stop. >> you think men curb their behavior because they're gentlemen at hurt? >> i think so. i really do. i'm speaking for myself, in terms of this. i think there are more men that are like me than there are richard and the other gentleman that escaped. >> richard and david. >> david sweat. >> thank you, gentlemen. i appreciate it. we have more tonight on the breaking news in the man hunt for the escaped killers. up next, reaction to rachel do dolezal, born white but says she identifies as a black woman. we'll talk to her brother and her parents who say she needs a reality check.

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rachel dolezal made the rounds on national tv today, insisting she identifies as a black woman. after speresigning from the naa spokane branch after her parents outed her. her brother, ezra, is joining us now. you saw your sister on television. >> yes, i did. >> what did you think? >> i can't say it was surprising, what she said. it was similar to her original story but a little different. >> you said there were inconsistencies you bought about n now. >> she starts out, beginning of the story actually happening last week, saying that she was born black, saying that she grew up in africa, all this other stuff. now, she's changing her story. my question for her is, what is true? is that what we're saying now is true, or what you said earlier?

also, some of the details, like howard university and all that stuff that she admitted to. she keeps changing her story. >> people have been asking, why on earth is the family speaking forward? you said she's done so many, what you think, are deplorable things to the family and said so many things publicly, that you're doing it to correct the record. is that why? >> to set the record straight, yes. >> she was asked earlier on "today" about what it means to take on blackness. i want you to watch this, ezra. >> i have a huge issue with blackface. this is not some freak birth of mockery blackface performance. this is on a real, connected level. i've actually had to go there with the experience, not just a visible representation, but with

the experience. the point at which that really solidified was when i got full custody of isaiah. he said, you're my real mom. he's in high school. for that to be something that is plausible, you know, certainly can't be seen as white and be isaiah's mom. >> so she's talking about her kids. isaiah, which is your brother, right, she adopted her brother, right? >> she got custody of him. she didn't adopt him. she got custody of him. >> she's talking about blackface, which you accused her of that. she's saying she felt like she was part of a black family. do you understand that? what is she talking about? >> actually, honestly, i have no idea what she's talking about with that. part of a black family, i mean, she -- yes, the younger kids were black, but she never considered herself black until

2011, when she was wanting to appear as black. she never did it growing up. >> this is another thing she said about what it means to be black and take on blackness. here it is. >> first of all, it means that i have really gone there with the experience, in terms of being a mother of two black sons and really owning what it means to experience and live black. blackness. so that's one aspect. another aspect would be that i, from a young age, felt i don't know if it's a spiritual, instinctual connection with black is beautiful. you know, just the black experience and wanting to celebrate that. >> so you're kind of smirking there as you're watching that. why? >> i don't know. some of the stuff she was saying was ridiculous.

i mean, she was trying to, i guess, make it sound more in depth than what it was, what she did and trying to justify it. >> you think she's lost connection to reality? >> i honestly think she did. >> when do you think it happened? >> i think around like -- i wouldn't say 2012. i'd say more recently. probably, i don't know, probably within the last couple years. she's gone so far as to not actually admit that she's actually -- when she told me wh she was doing, she's not exactly doing that anymore. what she's doing is saying she actually is it and acts like she believes it. she actually believes that she is right in what she's doing and it's justified. >> now, she's completely disconnected with the family. we're going to talk to your mom and dad, her mom and dad, later on. thank you. >> thanks. >> i want to bring in donald harris, president of the arizona chapter of the naacp.

thank you for joining us, mr. harris. you are a white leader who is working for the naacp. rachel dolezal could have taken that path. what do you make of this saga? >> i was told at a young age, when you find you're digging yourself into a hole, stop digging. it seems that every time this young lady gets on tv in the last day or so, she's digging herself deeper and deeper. she's coming up with false defenses as to why she did this. the experience. then she refers back to the movie, "the birth of a nation," which was an anti-black movie. it has to stop. she's got to face the facts. she's not black. she's never going to be black. she did something worthwhile in her capacity as a leader in the naacp. now, she's going to bring it all down on her head. it's not going to ruin the organization. the organization will stand solid and come out better than it was before. it's time for her to face

reality. i don't think this young woman is facing reality. >> if there is a perception out there, and maybe people are naive to the fact that there are white people, people of all ethnicities in the naacp, and leadership positions, you don't have to pretend to be black to be a leader in the naacp. that's a misconception if anyone is thinking that, especially her. >> exactly. we have white leaders. i don't know how many presidents of chapters we have now. i thought at one time i was the only one. a apparently, i wasn't. that's unimportant. the naacp was founded 105 years ago by several people of several denominations and several colors. we had white jews that gave the financial support and began writing the charter for the original naacp, along with african-americans. it grew and grew and grew into a powerful, wonder organization. that can't be denied. the beginning, right in the outset of this organization,

there were whites working with african-americans. it's been a success. it can continue to be a success, and we can build on it. we've got to put this to the side. this is one person that is, once again, i don't mean to make disparaging remarks against her, because she's been a trooper for the naacp, but she has healthish you shoo issues, i think, that need to be addressed. >> you said she's done a lot. initially, people within the organization supported her, saying she's done a lot of good work, as you have said. as you hear more and more from her, do you think that she is losing support by making statements and not really answering questions to the satisfaction of the public? >> no doubt. she has lost credibility. when you lose credibility, you've lost everything. especially when you're in a position of leadership. if you can't trust your leaders, if you can't believe in your

leaders, what do you have? you have nothing. that's what is going to be left with this young woman. they're going to forget the good deeds she did. >> donald harris, thank you. >> thank you, don. much more reaction tonight on rachel dolezal's statement that she identifies as a one woman. one woman calls her a con artist. and a bomb shell on the right. donald trump is running for the gop nomination. how will it impact the race?

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rachel dolezal, a former

naacp leader who was born white insists she identifies as a black woman. so how do people feel about that claim? i'm joined by a columnist and author. a professor of phycology and the author of "race, talk, and the conspiracy of silence." how did you get that title on the front of a book? >> it was hard but we did it. >> if my mouth will work tonight, i'll ask you questions. you started off as a supporter of rachel dolezal and her record for the naacp. after that interview, or her interviews, what do you think no? >> you're right. don, initially, what i wanted to do was two things. one, who was rachel dolezal? i hadn't heard of her. who had? the spokane and naacp. i went to the website and looked at the record. i was impressed. all the issues that are near and dear to the civil rights act vis

-- activists, police abuse, hate crimes, her and the chapter were on point. then i wanted to know after the record, why, if this individual has apparently given such great leadership, revived the organization, moved it along, why pretend to be something else? that was a troubling question. as we've heard, don, the naacp has always had leaders who have been white that run chapters. >> it's not a big deal. >> right. in other words, you can be exactly what you are, with no pretension. that was extremely troubling to me. >> you think there is manage beyond what's here that she's dealing with. has she lost your support? >> the support was really the record, more than anything else. rather than the individual. having said that, i do find it troubling, like i said before. number one, you were something else. i don't know whether she

actually deliberately misrepresented herself or not. we can go back and forth on that. >> it appears she did. >> the fact of the matter is you are something else. in a strategic, critical leadership position, and let's face it, the naacp is the nation's oldest civil rights and most respected organization. >> i want to get the other guests in here. you broke the internet last night with your conversation on this show. i want to play this for you, the first moment when rachel dolezal was asked about her identity by a local reporter. here it is. >> are you african-american? >> i don't understand the question. >> are your parents, are they white? >> i -- >> sorry about that. it's just unbelievable, the way she reacted. she had a long toim time to fig that out. here's how she responded to matt

lauer this morning. >> let me ask the question in simple terms again, because you've sent mixed signals over the years. are you an african-american woman? >> i identify as black. >> you identify as black. let me put a picture up of you in your early 20s. when you see this picture, is this an african-american woman? or is that a caucasian woman? >> that's not in my early 20s, but -- >> a little younger, i guess? >> i think i was 16 in that picture. >> is she a caucasian woman or african-american woman? >> visibly, she'd be identified as white by people who see her. >> at the time, were you identifying yourself as african-american? >> in that picture, during that time, no. >> >> so is this about race, integrity, both? what is it? >> i think we have here, and based on her comments today, a classic case of black friend

syndrome gone awry. race is not determined by who you spend the most of your time with, or who you're influenced by. it's structurally and externally imposed and enforced. racism was created for the benefit of white people. this idea that we can be race fluid, it doesn't go in two directions. it goes in one direction. it's toward whiteness and for the benefit of white people. that's what we've seen with race in the past. that's exactly what's happening now. when the irish and the italians became white, it was for the benefit of the white power structure. rachel dolezal, even though it looks a little different nowadays, she is actively benefitting from passing herself or trying to present as a black woman. it's for her benefit. gained scholarships, got opportunities, in spokane, at least, where normally, they were saved for black people. she's probably going to get a book deal. >> this was meant for somebody

of color. is she identifies as black, is she black? >> my initial reaction can be a harsh one, that she is deceptive, dishonest and manipulative. this speaks to what we call a character flaw. that would be unethical for me to diagnosis as a psychologist, some type of disorder. the more benign explanation relates to what we call white racial identity development. there has been a body of study in literature that have begun to explore how white individuals come to identify as a racial cultural being. what their whiteness means to them. be you ask most white people, what does whiteness mean to you, they won't be able to answer it, or they will feel uncomfortable. they'll deny it by saying, i'm italian. i'm irish or something like that. for her to, however, have gone

to identify with a marginalized group, usually you see passing going the other way. >> so what is she saying? >> i think she's stuck in a process where now she perceives her own whiteness as something negative, something that she's ashamed of, something she's trying to escape. there's two reactions in phycology that we've studied. one, we call the paternalistic protector, where the white person becomes almost an uncle or father to protect racial ethnic minorities from racism. the other one, that i think dolezal is involved in, is what we call over identification with the oppressed or marginalized group. she is now -- she's gone further. it's unusual. she's now fabricating evidence to indicate that through self-deception and deception of

others, that she is a black woman. >> yeah. >> that's bothersome to me. this is disturbing and unhealthy. >> it's bothersome to a lot of people. fascinating conversation. unfortunately, we're out of time. i appreciate the conversation tonight. coming up, can i person be born one race and identify with another? what about comparisons made between transracial and transgender people? before i had the shooting, burning, pins-and-needles of diabetic nerve pain,

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since rachel dolezal's story made headlines, comparisons have been made between transracial and transgender. let's talk about this with a psychologist and a transgender news reporter and special k correspondent. s you said she is a con artist, social path ripping off the trans experience. don't mince words. you sent me a scathing e-mail. why do you feel so strongly about this? >> well, this weekend, i took a number of callers. they were arguing, if bruce jenner can call himself a woman, why can't rachel dolezal call herself black?

and the problem is, from a philosophical standpoint, i can't argue with that. i have nowhere to go. i know gender disphoria is in the textbook, but not when dealing with racial. i know i have a brain anomaly and the only cure for it is using hormone replacement therapy, or including surgery, which i've had. but with what she's experiencing, this is like, to me, sociopathic behavior. at the very best, an opportunist. somebody that has an answer for everybody. i've been sucked into this, and i really don't know where to go. maybe they have a point. maybe bruce jenner can be a woman without getting all the surgeries. maybe i'm really still a man. who is to say? >> yeah. let's talk about it. let's get a medical opinion here. jeff, rachel says she identifies

as being black. is that possible? it's not in the medical journal. will it be there possibly one day? are you born into a race and can you transition to another in. >> as we see with transgender, and zoey can attest, there are studies nature versus nurture, looking at brain structures, dna and so on. they're trying to figure out, how does this happen? we know it's something that is very healthy for an individual to go from gender disphoria to transgender to making the transformation. that is healthy. this is transracial. there are no studies as to whether someone is born into the wrong racial group. we know that you can inherit certain behaviors but you don't inherit whether you decide you're black or white. that, as we know right now, is purely environmental. what i see going on with rachel at this point, yes, i think she has been dishonest.

when you tell a lie, you build around that lie. you create a new reality. but i don't think she's doing it for gain. even if she is, as many other people believe she is, there's a psychological component behind that. as a phycology, i can't judge her. i can only look at the psychodynamics. you've made it very clear, don, in your interviews, that there are some very horrific dynamics going on between this woman and her parents and family, and perhaps her being this transracial individual is more about a coping mechanism. not being able to identify with being white because of the issues with her parents or with society. >> let me ask you this. i'm playing devil's advocate. she clearly lied, and she admits as much, probably not as much as people would like her to admit. transracial is not part of the medical book that zoey has

there. transgender may not have been in the medical book at some point. might this end up being something legitimate, and maybe rachel dolezal is the wrong example of it at this point? are there people who truly feel they were born the wrong race, or they identify as another race? doctor and then zoey. >> i think people overidentify with african-american culture, and there's nothing wrong with that. i think the issue is here, she may not be the right example because of what we understand to possibly be the deception and the family dynamics that are part of this. you're right, don. i don't think she is the right test person for this kind of concept. >> would you be able to accept that, zoey, following up on the question to this, would you be able to accept that maybe there's possible transracial -- i'm not a psychologist. >> i understand your point.

i don't think you can. i think kids, a lot of white kids, idolize basketball players. michael jordan, shaq, of course, but they know they're still white. with respect to the trans issue, this is my life. i spent two years fighting in the media to get recognition, so people know this is a brain anomaly. >> you think she co opted the movement and turned it unfairly? >> exactly. she's using the trans story. i knew at 5 years old. i was drawing myself with a brown pen instead of a pink pen, that kind of -- craola. what i'm worried about is if the media believes this is possible. it cheapens the transgender experien experience. every we fought for, out the window because i don't have

answer. >> people who work in the civil rights movement are saying the same thing. clearly, doctor, race is a social construct, right? >> yeah. >> is this in any way maybe advancing toward the future, and the people who feel that way are looking back to a dark past, rather than to a future where people say, i identify with a lot and i'm not just run race. the only race i'm part of is a human race. >> certainly. we see that happening now. i believe by 2050, we're going to see that most people are brown anyway, and there's going to be a medicali imelding of th. let's not put transracial and transgender together because it does a disservice to the transgender movement which has been amazing in the past couple months and years. i think it's important we recognize that it's okay to identify or over identify with a certain race. for example, african-american. >> don't mislead people. >> don't mislead people. when people ask you, what is

your race, you can clearly say, i'm white. i feel like a black person, but i'm white. >> i was born white, but i identify with blackness. thank you. i appreciate both of you. i have to run. i'm sorry. >> i can say this quickness? >> quickly. >> the doctor is clearly italian, the way he's moving his hands. >> zoey. that's why we love you. appreciate both of you. still to come, rachel dolez dolezal's parents react to her claim, and her father talks about one thing she said that was a kick in the gut to him. donald trump comes out swinging. he's running for president.

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then there were 12. donald trump is running for president. the reality television start and real estate man throws his hat into a crowded ring. >> i beat china all the time. when was the last time you saw a chevrolet in tokyo? when do we beat medical examiner owe -- mexico at the border? they laugh at us. they're bringing drugs and crime. the big lie, obama care.

$5 billion on a website. i hire people and do a website. costs me $3. are you running? are you not running? i am officially running for president of the united states. we need a leader that wrote the art of the deal. i will be the greatest jobs president that god ever created. free trade can be wonderful if you have smart people. but we have people that are stupid. i like china. i sold an apartment for $15 million to somebody from china. they have bridges that make the george washington bridge look like small potatoes. i don't need anybody's money. i'm really rich. i love the saudis. many are in this building. obama, a year ago. yemen was a great victory. two weeks later, the place was blown up. we're dying.

we need money. thank you, darling. mr. trump, you're not a nice person. >> we don't need nice. >> that's true, but actually, i am. i think i'm a nice person. we have losers. i would we have losers. i would build a great wall. and nobody builds walls greater than me. nobody would be tougher on isis than donald trump. we won't be using a man like secretary kerry who goes into a bicycle race at 72 years old and falls and breaks his leg. i won't be doing that. the american dream is dead. but, if i get elected president, i will bring it back bigger and better and stronger than ever before. and we will make america great again. thank you. thank you very much. [ laughter ] >> the only thing missing -- >> let me introduce you.

[ laughter ] >> you e've got to love it. this is your guy. it's awesome, don't you think? watching him? >> the only thing missing is him saying and i'm black. i want you to know, i'm black. i was waiting for it. i really was. and i was waiting for him to say i'm going to be the first black president on the republican side. it was the only thing missing. this is a the circus has come to town. it is an embarrassment. there's one thing you're going to see come out of this. every republican candidate is going to destroy donald trump because they're going to refer to him as the biggest loser. this is nothing more than a side show that you, unfortunately, have to take seriously. i think he makes some good points. but i also think it's donald

trump and he can be incredible ly stupid at the same time. there are people who make good points all of the time, it doesn't mean that they should be president of the united states of america. >> here's another point. take a listen. >> all of these politicians that i'm running against now, they're trying to disassociate. you look at bush, it took him five days to answer the question on iraq. and then i looked at rubio. he was unable to answer the question, is iraq a good thing or a bad thing. he didn't know. he couldn't answer the question. how are these people going to lead us? how are we going to go back and make it great again? we can't. they don't have a clue. they can't lead us. they can't. they can't even answer simple questions. >> a lot of people feel exactly that way. >> when he's right, he's right. no, this is the problem with donald trump. of course he's not going to win. he probably will make the main stage.

he'll be one of the top ten vote getters just because of name recognition. the problem is he's going to be a flame thrower. he has nothing to lose. he's a bottomless pit of money. he's going to throw things at jeb bush and walker and rubio. and, as he does that, head's going to create some messiness for republicans that re3ubly cans are going to have to respond to. if i were them, i would ignore him. >> i don't think you can ignore him. i think he has name recognition. he's going to be in the top ten unless there's a serious effort by other candidates to make sure that they dismantle him. i mean, think about all the liekts he has. not just in his companies and the bankruptcy and the casinos. this guy has more bankruptcies than most people even make money. >> it doesn't matter.

>> it will matter. >> quickly. quickly. quickly, mark, i want to move on. quickly, mark, i want to move on. >> all i'm going to say is when people know you and they know you for a long time, you can have scandals. as long as you live through them, it doesn't matter. we know he's broke, he e we know he's stupid, we know his hair is bad. >> wow. >> i'm looking forward to hitting the campaign trail and discussing the i shall shoe that is are important to all americans and having spirted debates with my fellow republicans about how to solve them. you don't want to mess with little jebby. because when it comes to debating, he's a master. he's a master debater. [ laughter ] >> so, listen, as i watched donald trump today, very animated. he kept your attention. we laughed.

as i watched jeb bush yesterday, you're, like, he's reading, he's reading, he's reading. would this help him grab the attention back from trump, mark? >> yes. i think , ultimately, we need t see the softer side of jeb bush. we need to see the george w.h. bush side of him. jeb bush is going to be the nominee, but it's going to take another month to pull away from doing things like this. >> certainly, trump isn't above it all. he thinks oprah would make a good running mate. listen. >> back in 1999, when you were thinking of running as a reform party candidate, you told larry kane you would consider oprah. >> she's a good friend of mine. i like oprah. is that supposed to be a bad

thing? >> no. so what do you think about her? >> i think oprah would be great. i think oprah would win easily, actually. >> do you adwree? >> no, i don't. and, first of all, i don't think oprah is going to run on the gop ticket, let's be honest. she literally created barack obama before other people even thought he had a shot at this thing and now he's a two-term president. so the idea that she would even accept is pretty laughable. it goes back to what i said earlier. donald trump is the kardashian of the gop. he's a reality tv star who there's nothing that's beneath him to get his fame out there. it's sad. it's honestly going to take away from probably the real discussion debate and people that are trying to make that top ten to get on stage who actually have good ideas. donald trump etknowings that

there's no shot in haties that he's going to be president. he's just like ross perot. >> and he said haties,not haiti. >> that's right. >> we'll be right back. >> we'll be right back. small businesses every day rate through programs like mission main street grants. last years' grant recipients are achieving amazing things. carving a name for myself and creating local jobs. creating more programs for these little bookworms. bringing a taste of louisiana to the world. at chase, we're proud to support our grant recipients, and small businesses like yours. so you can take the next big step.

a good host, is a good host ♪ no matter where he's hosting. ♪ stella artois host beautifully

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>> this is cnn breaking news. >> the breaking news is the hunt for two escaped killers in up state new york. here's what sources are telling cnn. that joyce mitchell, the prison employee charged as an accomplice in the escape warned her husband that the convicts ploted to kill him. he'll have the very latest on that. also, a former naacp leader who was born white says she identifies as a black woman. i'm going to talk to her parents who say their daughter is disconnected from reality. a whole lot to get to in this next hour.